Setting up shop

[Glen Butler]

Hello all, first post here of many I hope. And so, so many questions about what I may need for the future.

I am just setting up shop. I have used my fathers woodshop for the last several years, but through some good fortune I am able to put 10 G's toward new tools. But I am just back and forth on what to get.

I have lined up so far:
2yrs old PM 2000 for $1500.
1yrs old PM 25A Shaper for $1500.

Could pick up a Woodmaster 712 w/ lots of accessories for $1750. I just don't think I need the molder fuction right now and it seems their knives are really inexpensive for M-2 steel, compared to amana. So I wonder if I will get a good finish. I understand dust collection is not to great on it. What would you recommend?

My biggest concern is the jointer. Do I get 6 or 8 inch? Slope or Parallelogram? My woodcraft salesman highly recommends Parallelogram for trueness and it seems these are all at least 8 inch. In a recent thread some were debating 6 or 8 and I don't even know what I would use an 8 inch for? except I like the length of the bed. I just want to prepare for whatever the future holds? What is wide enough to need an 8 inch bed? Is it necessary to take bow out of 8" wide stock? and doesn't that make a 1x8 too thin by the time you take out a bow? I guess I have never been a big jointer user but I know it is one of the most important tools in a shop. I would get a less expensive planer to get a more expensive jointer if I had to. Guide me.

Would you recommend a festool plunge saw for precutting exceptionally crowned stock for the planer?

[Neal Clayton]

i own a woodmaster. i need to make molding. if i didn't, i would have opted for another planer. it can pass for an every day planer with their spiral head (for another 1000 dollars), but it's finicky. there are better options if you don't want to make molding.

get as big a jointer as you can afford and fit. parallelogram is a better design but how many times will you really move it? i spend 30-40 hours a week in the shop and can't remember the last time i changed the depth or moved the fence on my jointer. as long as it's flat it's great. if it isn't it's worthless. there's not many options in between. so take 'features' on a jointer with a grain of salt, imo. i have an 8", every time i see a 16" for sale i try to figure out how to make room for it, i keep waiting for the shop to get bigger on its own but the thing just seems to be content to stay the same size. guess i'm stuck with it ;).

i wouldn't wish a 500 dollar skilsaw on an enemy. i do have a 16 foot length of angle iron, 3 hand clamps, and a chalk line that'll give said 500 dollar skilsaw a run for its money though. and if i weren't cutting molding, and therefore needing to flatten an edge on a 16 foot long board, i could take the angle iron back to the scrap yard.

put the 500 dollar skilsaw money toward an extra 500 on your dust collection system, or a good full size mortiser, or an old behemoth of a drill press, or other such thing.

[Dewey Torres]

Glenn... just a thought but pics will elevate responses dramatically. Sounds like you have a great start ...congrats!

[Rick Potter]

I would go parallelogram on the jointer for sure. I have had several, and currently have a Delta DJ20. I move it a lot. I usually take a couple sorta deep cuts when straightening out a board, then zip it up to the preset final cut of 1/32nd or so. Takes all of three seconds to do it.

My next buys would be a bandsaw and a router table.

Rick Potter

[Dave Verstraete]

Glen
Welcome to the Creek!

You'll find plenty of people here with a lot of advice on how to spend your money. We're all tool addicts, I think.

My purchase suggestions: As some have already said, buy at least an 8" jointer. I didn't and since then have replaced it. I bought a Grizzly G0490Z and have not looked back. The spiral heads are the way to go. I would also buy a 15 - 20" planer with a spiral/shelix head. Having both of these tools will allow you to mill lumber flat and true which is the way most projects begin.

There...I just spent 30% of your money. I'll leave some for the next poster:D

[Glen Butler]

Yeah Neal, I decided that I would get rid of the festool from my list. A friend really loves his but the only thing I would use it for is getting my lumber close before I joint it and I can do that with the table saw. Well I do have to do a stain grade tread and riser so it would help cut out my skirt board to a 45 on the riser. Any suggestions on how to do this? Miter table maybe?

Its sounds like most people wish they had a bigger jointer so I will go with that. As I don't NEED to do molding yet I will wait and just get a better planer.

No picks as yet because I don't have any tools. Nor a place to put them. Ha Ha. They will go in my brothers house actually.

So ya'll with an 8 inch jointer. Why do you need 8 inches?

[Pat Germain]

So ya'll with an 8 inch jointer. Why do you need 8 inches?

Face jointing, my friend! In order to get a board square, you must run one face on the jointer, and the other through the planer. If you go with a 6" jointer, you will find almost every time you go to face joint, the board is just a little too wide. This doesn't happen nearly as often with an 8" jointer. Of course, it does happen which is why it's even better to have a 12" or 16" machine. But those are pretty pricey. An 8" jointer is typically only a little more than a 6".

I would also recommend a Grizzly jointer. I have a Shop Fox 8". It's the same as a Grizzly with different paint. Shop Fox is Grizzly's retail store line.

[Glen Butler]

It is all coming clear to me now thank you.

So now about the bandsaw. I was thinking Steel City 16" because I can hold a deeper blade than with the Powermatic 14". However the Powermatic 14" with a riser block gets me 12" under guide while the steel city only gets me 10". What is more advantages. My main use will be resawing.

[Pat Germain]

I'm sure mine will be the first of many recommendations for the Grizzly G0513X2 17" band saw. The JET is a good machine, but that Grizzly really shines. It does everything I ask of it and it does it flawlessly.

If your budget can budge it, you might consider an even bigger Grizzly band saw. It's pretty hard to buy too much band saw. You can always pick up a used Delta 14" band saw for smaller work. There are always lots of those available on Craigslit and they're good machines.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Welcome to the Creek!

My take is, skip the Woodmaster, you have a good shaper and saw, so you can make most moldings, but you need a planer and a jointer. Your budget has enough room for a combo jointer/planner, like a Hammer, which is what I would do. You'll get a big jointer, and an equally big planner. You will also save space. After the j/p, you need a bandsaw, then spend the rest on a power feeder for your shaper. Buy tooling for the shaper as needed.

[Glen Butler]

My fear with any combo machine as with the woodmaster or a planer jointer is it won't do either job exceptionally well or it will do one really well but the other will really suffer.

I keep hearing the grizzly name, and maybe they do have great tools at a great price, but my philosophy has always been you get what you pay for.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

My fear with any combo machine as with the woodmaster or a planer jointer is it won't do either job exceptionally well or it will do one really well but the other will really suffer.

I keep hearing the grizzly name, and maybe they do have great tools at a great price, but my philosophy has always been you get what you pay for.


I agree that you get what you pay for. That is why I recommended the Hammer, not a cheaper one. Actually the Jet and Griz have been getting good feedback, but the Hammer is unanimously positive. I have and love a Felder saw/shaper/jointer/planer combo. These european combos are better quality then your Powermatic tools. They are great stuff. There have been numerous threads about them, try a search. Rod Sheridan has one, and I bet he would be glad to answer questions. What you will get out of a good combo is two top notch machines for less then you can by comparable quality seperates for.

I had a very breif fling with a Foley planer/molder, and there is exactly zero similarity between a good euro j/p and a planer/molder. You will get zero, zip, zilch, nada snipe with the Hammer, Minimax, or Felder j/p, and you have the ability to order the cutterhead that you want. Look at Tersa. The only compromise might be table length, but I can easily joint 8' boards on mine, with out extensions. If table length is a problem, just buy extensions with the machine, or Aigner (sp?) aftermarket. I don't mean to knock anyone elses tools, but nothing else compares to the job that these euro tools do in any function, IMHO. Good luck on the decision,

[Neal Clayton]

My fear with any combo machine as with the woodmaster or a planer jointer is it won't do either job exceptionally well or it will do one really well but the other will really suffer.

I keep hearing the grizzly name, and maybe they do have great tools at a great price, but my philosophy has always been you get what you pay for.

i think the jointer/planers are a legitimate option, lots of folks use them and like them.

the woodmaster's issues stem from rubber rollers and lack of weight, which are necessities in their design for grip on molding stock and ease of disassembly to change functions. the jointer/planer combos don't suffer from such inherent limitations.

i'm not advocating them or disavowing them, they're just apples and oranges.

[Andrew Joiner]

Hi Glen,

Most Grizzly stuff is pretty good. Search around here and you will get to know what works and what doesn't.

What are you going to make in your shop? That is probably the first step to setting up shop. No need to buy a vertical panel saw if you never will cut panels.You can save a lot of money to buy material with if you plan ahead. This place is a good start. Wait until you really have a need for machine before you buy.

You might want to learn about planer sleds and straight line rip jigs.

I bought a new Powermatic 6" jointer in 1970 and used it in my cabinet shop for 3 or 4 years. I was buying S2S stock.Then I found out it's more cost efficient and easier to buy lumber S3S. A glue joint rip blade and a decent table saw set-up beats a jointer any day, especially on long stock edges! Oh and even a cheap rip blade won't ever chip out an edge like a knife can.
I never found the need to go back to owning and maintaining a jointer.

Recently I got a deal on some beautiful rough planks. I only bought the stuff that was flat in the rough. My experience is if a board is wavy in the rough it has a tendency to get wavy again, even if flattened on a $5,000 jointer. I ran it thru a planer and straight lined the edge on the table saw with a jig.

Even if I had a source for lots of cheap rough lumber,I would still flatten it with a planer and a sled. Holding down long heavy stock to a jointer table is hard work.

Good Luck!

[Grant Morris]

Glen, if I were you I would make an entire list of the tools you will need before you go buying big-ticket items. You might be surprised how much money you will spend just getting decent (not top of the line) essential tools. Once you have an idea of everything you need you will make much better decisions.

I would be a real drag to blow your $10G and find you didn't budget for some tools you really need.

Here is a list off the top of my head, I am bound to have forgotten some important stuff so bear that in mind.

Band Saw
Table Saw
Drill Press
Festool Domino
Decent D/C
OSC/Disc Sander
Drum Sander
Jointer/Planer
Chop Saw
Circular Saw
Router Table w/ 3H.P router
Plunge router
Dado
Clamps
Router bits
Saw blades
Workbench with vice
HVLP rig
Cordless drill/driver
Air Compressor
Brad nailer
ROS
Dovetail jig
Morticer
Grinder

[Eric DeSilva]

Glen, if I were you I would make an entire list of the tools you will need before you go buying big-ticket items.

That's a big list Grant... And, its precisely why I'd give the advice the other way around. Keep an eye out for good deals, but buy what you need for what it is you want to make next. On that basis, I assembled most of the heavy hardware for my shop for $5300 over the course of one year, including:

- a Delta Unisaw w/52" Bies fence ($700 used on CL);
- JDS Cyclone ($1K new, gotta have DC);
- 18 various sized Bessey K body clamps (avg. $12 ea used on CL);
- a 20" Grizzly planer and an 8" Grizzly jointer ($700 for the pair on CL);
- a 14" PM bandsaw ($700 used on CL);
- a SC 17" DP (new $400 thanks to MS cashback),
- a Jet 25CS shaper ($700 used on CL),
- a Delta 18/36 sander ($600 used on CL), and
- a 2HP power feeder ($300 used on CL).

All the other smaller stuff came as needed or based on good deals...

Just stay away from the slippery green Festool slope--that will cost you dearly (spoken as one who started with a TS-55 and a guide rail for breaking down sheet goods and who is now overrun by systainers). Avoiding Lie-Nielsen is a good idea too...

[Paul Williams 53072]

Yeah for your fantasy shop one can not forget to get the clamps! Obtaining an ample supply of these seemingly mundain woodworking accessories can eat up a small fortune in a hurry. :D

[Glen Butler]

Yeah Paul, I through in an arbitrary 500 for clamps alone. Do you think thats enough?

Grant that is exactly what I have done. I have a list that just keeps growing and I am finding how little 10 G's gets you.

I thought I had everything mapped out. I had talked to used sellers and was getting some pretty good deals. Turns out they were not completely honest in their representation of the tool. So I am turning to new now. I will forget the bandsaw because I can borrow one if I need it. But I don't for the current project.

Here's the big ticket list:
PM2000 from CPO $2200
? Powermatic 15" Planer/molder $2160
Delta 43-495x Shaper $1600
Used Powermatic 8" Jointer w/ helical head $1500 (keep your fingers crossed on this one, my local dealer has not picked it up yet)

After tax that leaves 2200 for the small stuff. Job specific bits, blades and glue I will just charge to the job.

[Chuck Durst]

Hi Glen,
I would agree with the buy it as you need it. Don't give up on finding good stuff on craigs list and other places, local newspapers, big lots and ect.
I search craigs list 5-7 times a day. In these times people will be parting with good tools cheap. You have too be extremely careful when dealing with people on there, and the old saying runs true there,if its too good to be true it is.I only look at ads with pictures and that aren't too far to travel. I will also 2nd the idea that you cannot have enough clamps, when all else fails buy clamps. Welcome and remember to have fun !!!

Chuck

[Glen Butler]

Just picked up a 1.5 year old Powermatic PM2000 5HP, 1PH, 50" for $2000. Pretty happy about it.

[Jacob Mac]

Just picked up a 1.5 year old Powermatic PM2000 5HP, 1PH, 50" for $2000. Pretty happy about it.


Congrats on the saw.

My only small recomendation is that I just bought a cheap Kreg pocket screw system and I love it. It makes getting my shop set up a ton faster. Jigs, tables, and soon cabinets can be made in half the time. And that helps me get to the projects I really want to do.

I'm not sure I would use pocket screws for any furniture I want to make, but it can really speed up a lot of tasks. Especially when you are first outfitting your shop with outfeed tables and everything else you need.

[Glen Butler]

Thanks for the reminder. I do want a pocket screw kit they are nifty. And I need one for putting down my box newels. I will put that on the list.

[Rob Price]

If it were my money, I would look hard at the 12" jointer/planer combos. I don't have any experience, but I've read two recent reviews (Fine Woodworking I think and Wood mag) that gave them good marks. You get a big wide jointer, and you get a planer with long infeed/outfeed beds. They've been popular in Europe for a while (that's the rumor at least).

It makes sense to me, the 'business end' of each tool is the same.

It would stretch your dollar and shop space. One less outlet to wire, one less DC branch/blast gate/etc.

You can blow $500 on clamps easy. I've seen some good Bessey parallel 4 clamp packs on Amazon lately- and if you search these boards you can buy through Sawmill creek and a bit of the sale goes back here.

Don't forget materials for workbenches/outfeed tables etc as well.

The pro tool addicts here can spend $10K in a hurry, but you can create a lot of sawdust with good stock prep (jointer planer), a good TS, BS and a good router setup. The rest is gravy (IMHO). I would start piece by piece, and add tools as you come across the need for them. A big shopping spree is cool, but you may end up with tools you don't need/use. I made my first several pieces of furniture with a router and table saw and some hand tools.

[Andrew Joiner]

Hi Glen,
I reposted this cause it looked like it got buried.
Most Grizzly stuff is pretty good. Search around here and you will get to know what works and what doesn't.

What are you going to make in your shop? That is probably the first step to setting up shop. No need to buy a vertical panel saw if you never will cut panels.You can save a lot of money to buy material with if you plan ahead. This place is a good start. Wait until you really have a need for machine before you buy.

You might want to learn about planer sleds and straight line rip jigs.

I bought a new Powermatic 6" jointer in 1970 and used it in my cabinet shop for 3 or 4 years. I was buying S2S stock.Then I found out it's more cost efficient and easier to buy lumber S3S. A good blade and a decent table saw set-up beats a jointer any day, especially on long stock edges! Oh and even a cheap rip blade won't ever chip out an edge like a knife can.
I never found the need to go back to owning and maintaining a jointer.

Recently I got a deal on some beautiful rough planks. I only bought the stuff that was flat in the rough. I ran it thru a lunch box planer and straight lined the edge on the table saw with a jig. I made some nice furniture with it.

Even if I had a source for lots of cheap rough lumber,I would still flatten it with a planer and a sled. Holding down long heavy stock to a jointer table is hard work.

[tyler mckenzie]

I set up my shop this year from scratch, it seemed pretty daunting in the beginning. I had all the same questions as you. Before i offend some here, this is what i do for a living, in my business good tools equals quality output. I left a cabinet shop that could afford the best (scmi, felder, etc) and i knew i wouldn't be happy with your local tool store offerings, or the green bears mail order. All i can say is buy used North Amerian or European, you'll never look back. I spent roughly $6000 and now have a complete shop.

my major machines found on the cheap:
General 130 planer
Poitras 12" jointer
12" delta table saw
20" davis wells bandsaw
14" Walker turner bandsaw
2hp dust collection
12"x36" Walker turner lathe

Educating yourself about mechanical condition is half the fun. The hunt can pay off in a big way.

Spend the remander on some nice walnut, and get cutting.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

Would you recommend a festool plunge saw for precutting exceptionally crowned stock for the planer?
Nope.
A thousand and one other reasons, yes- just not that specific one.

The TS55EQ/TS75EQ's really shine on sheet goods and specialty cuts where the plunge feature is required.

It's outstanding dust control also makes it ideal for use "on site" - where "on site" may happen to be the living room and/or kitchen of an expensive house.

From the sound of things you may have in mind, you might want to look at the EZ forum here. The two systems (three if you toss in the DeWalt) really only converge where they use a rail system to semi capture a saw.
Other than that, the systems all deviate from each other in the details & specialty applications.

[Glen Butler]

Here is the way I see my needs and why. If you disagree or I am incorrect in my thinking let me know. But know this. I am a perfectionist. If I am going to do something myself it better look at least as good if not better than what I would get.

I need a table saw. Given

I need a jointer. I am doing stain grade treads and risers as well as box newels and need perfectly straight lumber to glue up.

I need a planer. For the same reasons above as well as I may be doing a wood floor in a species not available in tongue and groove and will need to thickness plane the 3/4 stock to 1/2. Also doing cabinet door raised panels will be easy to glue up and smooth.

I need a shaper. Gives a better finish than a router table because of cut angle and vibration ~free environment. Better for large bits. Can hold the work piece easier. Putting a tongue and groove on my flooring.

I need a molder. I am making cabinets for my client though I am ordering the cabinet doors from a third party because they have more options and a reasonable price. They don't provide trim and I want to make sure the I can create trim using the same species of wood for a better finish.

I need a vacuum. Given

I need a router table system including router plate and fence for things not necessary on the shaper.

I need a dovetail jig. All the cabinet shops in the area make dovetailed boxes and I need to be comparable.

I need an HVLP booth. I would make my own with an explosion proof motor an a spare room but I need to filter all the air coming in and get dust out for a perfect finish.

[Bill Houghton]

I can imagine doing a full power shop, but even there, I can't imagine not having:

a block plane
a couple of chisels
at least one combination square, 12"
a 6" or 12" rule, or both
a tape measure