I believe this is a gloat

[Zach Dillinger]

All,

I purchased a carriage makers tool box today at an antique mall. Pictures are attached. For everything you see, I paid the princely sum of $200. A partial inventory follows:

- 9 buck brothers chisels and gouges - sharp and nicely polished
- Stanley 71 1/2 router plane - like new
- Stanley 60 1/2 block plane - like new
- Stanley 5 jack, good shape
- Stanley 78 rabbet plane - like new (still has the sticker on the handle)
- Stanley 4 (strangely, it is very rusty)
- unmarked small bull nose plane
- 3 unmarked brass spokeshaves - flat, convex, and scraper
- wood scraper spokeshave
- numerous ball peen hammers
- 2 braces
- 2 egg beater drills
- the largest draw knife I've ever seen, stamped 1837, still sharp enough to use
- Large, medium, and small Millers Falls ratcheting screw driver (like the Yankee (like new)
- Disston 22" panel saw - still very sharp
- Warranted Superior rip saw - still sharp
- Stanley No. 94 boxwood and brass rule - excellent condition, joints a little loose
- Two vintage pin up girl shots (oh my gosh, they are showing their ankles, how risque!)


There is so much in this box that it is going to take me quite some time to inventory it all. Once done, I will make sure to post it to the Creek. Apparently the original owner worked at Clark - Carter automobiles as a carriage maker. The company only existed for two years, 1911 and 1912. They entered a car in the 1912 Indy 500, but soon folded due to lack of money. The box itself has a Cutting Autos tag, so I'm assuming it was company property that the original owner took with him when the company folded up.

Enjoy! Anybody have any idea how rare the Stanley 94 rule is? I've never seen one before.

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[george wilson]

Looks like the haul should be worth much more than you paid,for sure. Nice score.

[Matt Ranum]

That would definately qualify as a gloat in my book.

No matter what the year guys are guys. Even has the girly pic in the tool box.:D

[Dave Samborski]

Nice find!
Amazing to find contents so complete and in such good shape.

[Phillip Pattee]

Definitely gloat worthy!:D Nicely done. Thanks for sharing the pics.

[Tom Henderson2]

Zach....

You Suck.... bigtime.

Congrats.

-T

[Jim Koepke]

Wow!

Well, you suck, nice score, we are all jealous.

I doubt there are many here who would not tear a hole in their pants getting their wallet out for that one.

jim

[Dewey Torres]

Yep that's a gloat great find oh and you just may ... SU $ *

But only BC I didn't find it first.:) Congrats!

[Rob Luter]

All,

I purchased a carriage makers tool box today at an antique mall.

Where? I do some antique hunting up your way and would like to find some new haunts.

- Rob

[dan grant]

Where? I do some antique hunting up your way and would like to find some new haunts.

- Robnever tell where your fishing hole is:)

[Jerry Balzell]

Nice find. I guess someone put the trunk in the attic and forgot about it.

[Ron Petley]

Looks like the box lost its way for a lot of years, but has a good home now, nice job. Love a good Gloat.
Cheers Ron

[John Powers]

That price at an Antique Mall is incredible. Normally those people have more than an inclinking what the components are worth. Only way you get that price is to get it maybe right in the garage or driverway near here. Whoever sold that to you really screwed up. Good for you.

[Zach Dillinger]

Where? I do some antique hunting up your way and would like to find some new haunts.

- Rob

Check the Mason antique district. There are several good tool hunting spots in there. I tend to drive over there about once a month just to check on things. Not much turnover, but every now and then you get lucky.

[Jim Kountz]

Wow what a find, thats really neat stuff!! Absolutely a certified gloat.
Yes Zach, you suck!!

[Zach Dillinger]

Thanks for all the nice comments guys. I will make sure to take more pictures and do a complete inventory. It really is in incredible shape for its apparent age, especially the tools. The only tool that isn't in perfect usable shape is the No. 4.

I have a question, however. This appears to be some sort of marking gauge. It is marked J.A. Aikens Warranted. It is rosewood, bound in brass, with a steel arm, graduated in inches. It has a scribing blade mounted in one end of the marking arm. It is very heavy, yet perfectly balanced and fits in the palm perfectly. Anybody know what this is, or how old it is?

Zach

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[Bill Houghton]

Thanks for all the nice comments guys. I will make sure to take more pictures and do a complete inventory. It really is in incredible shape for its apparent age, especially the tools. The only tool that isn't in perfect usable shape is the No. 4.

I have a question, however. This appears to be some sort of marking gauge. It is marked J.A. Aikens Warranted. It is rosewood, bound in brass, with a steel arm, graduated in inches. It has a scribing blade mounted in one end of the marking arm. It is very heavy, yet perfectly balanced and fits in the palm perfectly. Anybody know what this is, or how old it is?

Dang. did a long reply and somehow lost it.

I think the gauge is a leather slitting gauge. See http://www.goantiques.com/detail,osborne-pistol-grip,1291721.html. Whether you could adapt it to a woodworking use I'm not sure - you'd have to figure out how to keep your hand out of the way. Neat looking tool, though, and worth keeping just for its pretty, or to confuse and confound people with.

There's one Stanley 94 on deBay right now, so I guess they're uncommon but not rare. I have two smaller folding rules, and must confess that I've never used them, as I worry about delicacy.

I recommend you get the heavy tools, like the bolt cutter (big pliers looking thing), out of the saw till area - can't be good for the saws.

A lot of the tools look contemporary to the box, and make sense for a carriage maker working for an auto manufacturer or auto body manufacturer - back then, cars were built by hybridizing carriage making and sheet metal work. However, some of the tools (bolt cutter being one example) either look like newer technology or don't make sense to me for someone making car bodies. I am also struck by the presence of two braces (I think these are the tools you called eggbeaters - see below for my understanding of common terminology*), but no visible tapered square shank bits, unless I'm missing that in some of the twist drill bits. Also, there are way more claw hammers than makes sense for a mechanic. So, I think the box may not be the original complete kit and that the seller may have tossed in some tools to fill out the box and fill up missing spaces.

That's not to denigrate the box - which is cool in itself - or your gloat. The seller could probably have made $200 from wise selling of about half the items in the box on deBay. So you doubled your haul, AND didn't have to pay shipping, AND got two pinup pictures too. Quite a deal.

*As I've understood it, "eggbeater" as applied to drills usually refers to drills with a gear wheel turned with a hand crank driving the spindle, and are so named after the classic kitchen eggbeater. See http://www.georgesbasement.com/mfno2typestudy/mfno2types.html for an example of eggbeater drills; http://www.amazon.com/Kuhn-Rikon-Rotary-Egg-Beater/dp/B000H7H3F6 for an example of a kitchen eggbeater. Most (not all) of these have a three-jaw chuck and are designed for bits with straight shanks - like modern electric drills. Although there are great big eggbeaters that can grip larger shanks, most eggbeater drills are best at bits not much larger than 1/4", 5/16" at the most. Beyond that, you find the bit hard to keep turning in the wood, and it can slip in the chuck.

Braces, on the other hand, have a handle you hold in one hand, and a crank you turn: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/18/6818-004-2A591582.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/76628/62260/&h=280&w=340&sz=20&tbnid=8ktoWp-nnXGZxM::&tbnh=98&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrace%2Band%2Bbit&usg=__0Eear2ueZGM4IaG4c_G5deBaqpM=&ei=gHjGSZSgEJmMsQOh2unzBg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&cd=1. These permit higher torque at the expense of slower speed, and come in various sizes, usually called "swing," stated as twice the distance from the centerline of the chuck to the centerline of the crank handle, and ranging from 6" (rarely smaller) to 14", 10-12" being the common sizes. Because the torque is higher, a firmer grip is needed on the bits, so the common bit ends in a tapered square shape that fits in the (most often two-jawed) chuck. There are a few braces with chucks that can handle straight-shank bits, too; but, so far as I know, all the metal-bodied braces can accept tapered square bits. When you start sliding down the slippery slope of hand tool use, it's easy to convince yourself that you need multiple swings of brace. Smaller swing means more speed with less torque, and vice versa, and it can be hard to drill a 1" hole in oak with a 10" swing brace; but it'll take you a long time to exceed the limits of a 12" swing brace, although I will admit that two, 10-12" and 6-8", are nice to have. Please don't ask me how many I own; they follow me home, they do, really, it's not my fault.

Auger bits, by the way - pictured above with the brace - commonly come in 1/16" increments, 1/4" to 1", although there are larger sizes. There are lots of other bits, including twist bits, gimlet, etc.; but I've gone WAY beyond responding to your original question.

[Zach Dillinger]

Dang. did a long reply and somehow lost it.

I think the gauge is a leather slitting gauge. See http://www.goantiques.com/detail,osborne-pistol-grip,1291721.html. Whether you could adapt it to a woodworking use I'm not sure - you'd have to figure out how to keep your hand out of the way. Neat looking tool, though, and worth keeping just for its pretty, or to confuse and confound people with.

There's one Stanley 94 on deBay right now, so I guess they're uncommon but not rare. I have two smaller folding rules, and must confess that I've never used them, as I worry about delicacy.

I recommend you get the heavy tools, like the bolt cutter (big pliers looking thing), out of the saw till area - can't be good for the saws.

A lot of the tools look contemporary to the box, and make sense for a carriage maker working for an auto manufacturer or auto body manufacturer - back then, cars were built by hybridizing carriage making and sheet metal work. However, some of the tools (bolt cutter being one example) either look like newer technology or don't make sense to me for someone making car bodies. I am also struck by the presence of two braces (I think these are the tools you called eggbeaters - see below for my understanding of common terminology*), but no visible tapered square shank bits, unless I'm missing that in some of the twist drill bits. Also, there are way more claw hammers than makes sense for a mechanic. So, I think the box may not be the original complete kit and that the seller may have tossed in some tools to fill out the box and fill up missing spaces.

That's not to denigrate the box - which is cool in itself - or your gloat. The seller could probably have made $200 from wise selling of about half the items in the box on deBay. So you doubled your haul, AND didn't have to pay shipping, AND got two pinup pictures too. Quite a deal.

*As I've understood it, "eggbeater" as applied to drills usually refers to drills with a gear wheel turned with a hand crank driving the spindle, and are so named after the classic kitchen eggbeater. See http://www.georgesbasement.com/mfno2typestudy/mfno2types.html for an example of eggbeater drills; http://www.amazon.com/Kuhn-Rikon-Rotary-Egg-Beater/dp/B000H7H3F6 for an example of a kitchen eggbeater. Most (not all) of these have a three-jaw chuck and are designed for bits with straight shanks - like modern electric drills. Although there are great big eggbeaters that can grip larger shanks, most eggbeater drills are best at bits not much larger than 1/4", 5/16" at the most. Beyond that, you find the bit hard to keep turning in the wood, and it can slip in the chuck.

Braces, on the other hand, have a handle you hold in one hand, and a crank you turn: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/18/6818-004-2A591582.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/76628/62260/&h=280&w=340&sz=20&tbnid=8ktoWp-nnXGZxM::&tbnh=98&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrace%2Band%2Bbit&usg=__0Eear2ueZGM4IaG4c_G5deBaqpM=&ei=gHjGSZSgEJmMsQOh2unzBg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&cd=1. These permit higher torque at the expense of slower speed, and come in various sizes, usually called "swing," stated as twice the distance from the centerline of the chuck to the centerline of the crank handle, and ranging from 6" (rarely smaller) to 14", 10-12" being the common sizes. Because the torque is higher, a firmer grip is needed on the bits, so the common bit ends in a tapered square shape that fits in the (most often two-jawed) chuck. There are a few braces with chucks that can handle straight-shank bits, too; but, so far as I know, all the metal-bodied braces can accept tapered square bits. When you start sliding down the slippery slope of hand tool use, it's easy to convince yourself that you need multiple swings of brace. Smaller swing means more speed with less torque, and vice versa, and it can be hard to drill a 1" hole in oak with a 10" swing brace; but it'll take you a long time to exceed the limits of a 12" swing brace, although I will admit that two, 10-12" and 6-8", are nice to have. Please don't ask me how many I own; they follow me home, they do, really, it's not my fault.

Auger bits, by the way - pictured above with the brace - commonly come in 1/16" increments, 1/4" to 1", although there are larger sizes. There are lots of other bits, including twist bits, gimlet, etc.; but I've gone WAY beyond responding to your original question.

Bill, there are two braces and two eggbeaters. They might not be visible in the pictures. Thanks for id'ing the leather cutter, that makes complete sense. I didn't know what it was but figured it would be inconvenient to use as a marking gauge. The square shank bits are in there, right near the top of the drill bit section on the left side of the box.

I will make sure to get the heavy tools out of the saw till area. The big draw knife is over there as well, but it is secured and doesn't come into contact with the saws.

I noticed that some of the tools didn't make sense in the box. I just figured that, in the years since it was used at Cutting, the owner or his descendents added tools to it. Doesn't make it any less cool :)

Thanks so much for all the information.

Zach

[Bill Houghton]

I should have read your message more closely before inferring that you didn't know the difference between a brace and an eggbeater.

[Zach Dillinger]

I should have read your message more closely before inferring that you didn't know the difference between a brace and an eggbeater.

Bill, no worries. I posted a lot of information and I am pretty much a newbie on this site.

Thanks,

Zach

[David Keller NC]

Xach - You're quite lucky. It is very, very rare to find a complete set of tools for a particular trade in the tool chest these days. For the most part, they fall into dealer's hands, and they eagerly (and greedily) split everything up into individual tool sales because it's faster to sell them that way.

You've got a few pretty rare tools in that collection, with a fair number of ordinary, run of the mill items. But that's not what counts - it's the whole that has historical significance. You will be doing both yourself and a future owner (whether that be an individual or a museum) by going back to the antique dealer to see if you can get some contact information and trace down the family of the original owner. If you can, and you can document the individual and his trade (and put it all down on paper with the chest), the whole chest will be worth considerably more in the future.

One final note - it's your chest, so do what you wish with it, but if you want to preserve its collector's value, either resist the temptation entirely to clean the tools, or at the most use a rag with a bit of paste wax to very lightly clean the excessively grimy tools. Cleaning up and restoring to a "like new" condition is in some cases desirable for a $40 plane from e-bay, but it's anathema to most collectors, and will substantially lower its value at an antique tool auction.

[Zach Dillinger]

Xach - You're quite lucky. It is very, very rare to find a complete set of tools for a particular trade in the tool chest these days. For the most part, they fall into dealer's hands, and they eagerly (and greedily) split everything up into individual tool sales because it's faster to sell them that way.

You've got a few pretty rare tools in that collection, with a fair number of ordinary, run of the mill items. But that's not what counts - it's the whole that has historical significance. You will be doing both yourself and a future owner (whether that be an individual or a museum) by going back to the antique dealer to see if you can get some contact information and trace down the family of the original owner. If you can, and you can document the individual and his trade (and put it all down on paper with the chest), the whole chest will be worth considerably more in the future.

One final note - it's your chest, so do what you wish with it, but if you want to preserve its collector's value, either resist the temptation entirely to clean the tools, or at the most use a rag with a bit of paste wax to very lightly clean the excessively grimy tools. Cleaning up and restoring to a "like new" condition is in some cases desirable for a $40 plane from e-bay, but it's anathema to most collectors, and will substantially lower its value at an antique tool auction.

David, thanks for the post. I was able to track down the email of the original owner's granddaughter. I've sent her an email for any info she might be able to provide. I'm still working through the tools to figure out exactly what is there (there is easily 100 tools in this box). I plan to do a photo inventory and research each tool. I will need a lot of help id'ing tools, so I'm hoping the Creek will be there for me, as always. Have any of you undertaken such a project? If so, I'd really appreciate any tips you might have.

With regards to cleaning, I do not plan to clean the tools at all. I will use a few of them, however, but only with the proper care and respect that I show all my tools. There is some green corrosion on one of the brass spokeshaves that I plan to deal with, but none of the other tools need that sort of work. I'm going to wax the Disston D-8 crosscut saw, as the plate is still like new with a clear etch. I want to make sure it stays rust free in the future. On the whole, I will not change the condition of the tools, because they don't need anything. My motto, shamelessly stolen from St. Roy is to "remove the signs of abuse, not the signs of use." Fortunately, there is very little abuse to deal with here. I feel that, when you take possession of old tools, you don't really "own" them, you just take responsibility for their continued survival for future generations.

Thanks,

Zach

[Zach Dillinger]

Wow what a find, thats really neat stuff!! Absolutely a certified gloat.
Yes Zach, you suck!!

I got really, really lucky. It pays to make friends with the owners of all the antique shops in your area, because they will call you when they or one of their vendors get something really really good.

Zach

[Steve Sawyer]

Zach - that is indeed gloat-worthy, but when I see something that forms a complete "set" and has a bit of provenance to go with it (being traceable to a short-lived auto company), I'd be inclined to get a professional appraisal of the entire box - including the pinups.

It may turn out to be nothing special, in which case you can start cleaning and restoring everything to it's rightful purpose, but I'd hate to see you unwittingly destroy something that could be of historical value, to say nothing of it's commercial value that could be far in excess of what you paid for it.

My guts tell me it's just a neat box of old tools that you can put to good use, but my guts also tell me that if I'd scored this, I'd check it out with an expert first.

I scored a beautiful Sargent cabinet scraper about a year ago. Because I'd never seen one of these in the wild I carefully researched it to make sure that it didn't have great value as a collector's item before doing the cleaning and restoration.

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach - that is indeed gloat-worthy, but when I see something that forms a complete "set" and has a bit of provenance to go with it (being traceable to a short-lived auto company), I'd be inclined to get a professional appraisal of the entire box - including the pinups.

It may turn out to be nothing special, in which case you can start cleaning and restoring everything to it's rightful purpose, but I'd hate to see you unwittingly destroy something that could be of historical value, to say nothing of it's commercial value that could be far in excess of what you paid for it.

My guts tell me it's just a neat box of old tools that you can put to good use, but my guts also tell me that if I'd scored this, I'd check it out with an expert first.

I scored a beautiful Sargent cabinet scraper about a year ago. Because I'd never seen one of these in the wild I carefully researched it to make sure that it didn't have great value as a collector's item before doing the cleaning and restoration.

Anybody have any idea of a competent appraiser in the Michigan area? Should I email the Fine Tool Journal, or is this not the right type of tool to be sent to them? Steve is right, I probably should check this out before doing anything with it.

Zach

[James Adinaro]

WOW! That's freaking awesome. Congratulations.

I never find anything even remotely cool at flea markets etc.

[Steve Sawyer]

I would start with Dumochelles Galleries in Detroit - I don't think this is their forte, but they could probably point you in the right direction.

http://www.dumouchelles.com/

[David Keller NC]

"Have any of you undertaken such a project? If so, I'd really appreciate any tips you might have."

Ha! I should be so lucky. Even though it looks as though some of the tools in the chest are fairly modern, and tools from the 1911-1912 era aren't rare, finding a complete chest that's pre-WWII is rare, as the vast majority of them have been broken up and sold piecemeal either by the family that inherited them, or an auctioneer or tool dealer that comes across them.

While I wouldn't discourage you from talking to a knowledgeable person regarding the value/historical significance of your find (the local MWTCA chapter is by far and away your best resource in this regard), the provenance research you yourself can do will have far more value. Attaching a name of a craftsman, what his specialty was, and anything about his life history (such as, birth/death dates, whether he fought in any of the world wars, etc...) will greatly help to determine what the historical significance of the chest is, and will also help you determine what was added to the chest at a later date.

By the way - it's very common for antique dealers to "fill in" a chest with miscellaneous tools that they cannot otherwise sell to enhance the perceived value. That may well be the source of the modern tools you noted seemed out of place in the chest.

Finally - I'd encourage you to try to date some of the tools, as it will confirm/cast in doubt the story you were told, particularly in terms of dating. One tool will not give you the age of the chest, but having good dates on 5 or 10 will give you high confidence that you've been given accurate information. In particular, it's easy to date the Disston saw and the Stanely planes - I'd start there.

[Zach Dillinger]

WOW! That's freaking awesome. Congratulations.

I never find anything even remotely cool at flea markets etc.

James,

Thanks. Right place, right time, lucky to have a wife that understands that sometimes you just have to spend fairly large sums of money (at least to a newlywed couple) without checking with her first.


Zach

[glenn bradley]

If I say "You Stink!" will you take it in the brotherly way I intend it? Nice haul.

[Zach Dillinger]

If I say "You Stink!" will you take it in the brotherly way I intend it? Nice haul.

Glenn,

I sure will. Thanks :)

Zach

[mike saylor]

looks like a leather stripper to me. Just put your leather hide in a vise or nail it to a table and adjust the width to how wide you want the belt or whatever your making and draw it toward you and the blade will cut the leather. I have one just about like it. You can see these alot around Amish harness shops`.

[mike saylor]

looks like a leather stripper to me. Put the hide in a vise or nail it to the table adjust the stripper to how wide you want the belt or whatever and pull the stripper toward you. You will see a lot of these around amish harness shops.