Calling All Old School Woodworkers

[Paul Ryan]

This thread has to do with measurments. I am a younger guy 33 years old. I have been reading thread after thread about how my table is .000001 out of flat, and my slots are .0000001 out of alignment, and the run out on my arbor is .000001 out, and my drill press chuck ios .000001 out. How important are these measurments? It seems to me we are cutting wood not building the space shuttle or going to the moon.

How were you older guys able to create beautiful furniture with machines that had specs that were completely out of wack? I have never measured the flatness of my jointer, or my table saw, nor the run out of the arbors. In all honesty do you older guys worry about the measurments on your machines?

[Chris Rosenberger]

I have been woodworking for over 40 years. I have never checked one of my tools for how flat the table was or if a spindle or arbor had run out. My only concern is that the tool do the job I need done.

[Andrew Joiner]

I don't think age has much to do with it. I'm 57 and I made my living doing woodwork from 1971 to 1991.

I think it has to do with time. If you have to get a job done to get paid, that can be the accuracy standard. The client won't pay if they don't like the final product.
Some shops belong to the AWI and meet the standards they dictate. The amount of time I spent getting and keeping machines set to cut good enough to get paid had to be minimal.

If I'm doing woodwork for myself or as a hobby, I have TIME to mess with tolerances like .0000001. It's fine if you want to do that. That could become a hobby on it's own.

My goal is to produce nice work. I can do that without a micrometer.

I don't know if I'm from Old School or the Keep It Simple school.

[David DeCristoforo]

Not unless it is extreme enough to cause an "actual problem". For example, you mention drill press runout. If it was enough to cause the bit to wobble to be hard to center or the holes to be out of round, sure, that would need attention. But measuring it with a dial indicator and finding a few thousandths of an inch of runout... not worth the worry. I'm kind of in the same league with Chris R. I have been doing this for a living for almost forty years and I have made some "pretty good" stuff. I have never owned a dial indicator. Does that mean my tools are all out of adjustment? Not at all. Everything cuts square and true and everything mills flat and even. Maybe if I did check everything with feeler gauges and dial indicators, I might find slight variations everywhere. But nothing that actually affects the work in any significant way. If you want to try for machine shop accuracy, that's fine... it's your shop and your time. But it simply is not necessary.

[Brian Kent]

I've wondered about a feature like the split head on a Steel City Drill Press. Is it that great since I have never heard a woodworker say, "I'll have to throw out my drill press because the wear and tear on the cast-iron head has made it unusable."

By the way, of course I would love to have a Steel City drill press, but for other reasons than the split head.

[Ted Shrader]

Paul -

This is one of those 1.) Measure it with a micrometer, 2.) Mark it with a piece of chalk, and 3.) Chop it off with an axe question.

Seasonal wood movement more than makes up for measurements in the thousandths. Does the tool do what you need it to with out leaving tool marks too badly? Does the fence tail in at the end of the cut pinching the wood against the blade? (Unsafe condition) etc. It is all relative. Sometimes a dip in the table surface can effect the blade alignment to the wood passing over it. How much is too much? I think that is an individual thing and is totally your call. A drill press wobble can affect getting the bit started just right or even cause an out of round hole. Again, how much is too much?

Regards,
Ted

[Neal Clayton]

there's a place for accuracy within 5 thousandths, imo. beyond 2 or 3 thousandths is negligible.

lets say i'm building a 10 foot tall pocket door. my table saw is off 2 thousandths from front to back, roughly. that means for every 28 inches i'm off that much. multiply that out over 120 inches, and my door stiles will be off about 8 thousandths from one end to the other. problem? no, not really, 8 thousandths won't show after sanding and finishing, the glue will easily fill that. but if i were off 4 or 5 thousandths on the table saw fence, that would result in the stile being off almost a 16th from end to end. problem? absolutely. that won't be good enough. i'll wind up with the narrow end of each stile being too narrow and those joints not coming together flush. can i overcome that? probably, by flipping the boards before mortising so that the fat ends are diagonal from each other, rather than parallel to each other. but having an accurate machine eliminates the need for that sort of thing.

the same can be said for setting heights on rail/stile profile cutters. getting them within a couple thousandths initially only takes a minute or so of fine adjustment and running a couple of test cuts, which saves a half hour of sanding after by having much closer joints. worth it? yeah, because you're saving time that way.

so like anything else there are acceptable tolerances. how do you know what's acceptable? make something that doesn't fit together well enough, then you know it's not good enough. if that never happens all of your tools are fine.

and i've only been doing things that require any level of accuracy for a year or so, fwiw.

[Paul Ryan]

Personally, I find all of the measuring ridiculous.

I haven been woodworking for years. But until recently I had done very basic things and didn't own my own equipment. A couple of times a year I would use a friends or have access to a shop. I dont have the experience that most on thie forum do but I am learning. I guess what I am getting at is I dont see the obsession with these tight tight mesasurments that others seem to demand from there machines. If it cuts straight and square than run with it. I have a new table saw comming that should be the last for many many years. I dont plan on checking to see how unflat the table is, how much run out the arbor has, or if the miter slots are .000001 out of parallel. The first thing I build with it will be a cross cut sled. I expected it to slide smoothly and if it doesn't I will adjust it so it slides smoothly and cuts square.

The only reason I can see to go throught the pain in the arsh time of measuring all of th saw is if it doesn't cut right. And if it doesn't I would be more inclinded to blame my self or the blade, than the machine.

I just wanted to know if the older more experienced wood workers find all of this measuring ridiculous as well, or is it necessary.

[Ron Knapp]

Two issues come to my mind when you ask this question. The first deals with the absolute accuracy needed. Most of use would probably agree .0000001 out of alignment would not be an issue. I assume your use of a .0000001 figure is an exaggeration but at some point a given number may be relevant depending on the machine and what you are trying to do with it. Errors can be cumulative and by the time you get to the end fitting it may make more of a difference then we first imagined.

The second part really depends on what you are doing and your purpose. Certainly anyone who has to do any kind of woodworking for a living is going to have to quickly learn what the minimal acceptable standard is and either accept it or understand that further improvement will come at a cost and then decide what to do about it.

Some of us do this for other then professional reasons and because of this our approach may be different. I am retired and when I first attended a woodworking school which taught what I would be term a classical approach to building furniture one of the stated goals was to have you learn to do the best job that you can. Machine and hand tool tuning and setup were part of the learning curve and I must confess I had a very lackadaisical attitude toward this at first. Old habits are very hard to change and in many cases if I had learned to take more care in my equipment, attitude, and approach I would have had a more enjoyable time and my past products would have been much better then they were. The other immeasurable result of taking the effort to tune up my tools is a gratifying feeling from checking the parts I have made and seeing them fit preciously with what has become relatively little effort because the tools do what is expected of them.
.

“How did were you older guys able to creat beautiful furniture with machines that had specs that were completely out of wack? I have never measured the flatness of my jointer, or my table saw, nor the run out of the arbors. In all honesty do you older guys worry about the measurments on your machines?”

I’ve used some of these older machines and if they were out of wack it was do to the owner-operator and if they used a modern machine it would still be out of wack. It is the attitude of the person and not the machine.

You shouldn’t obsess over the degree of measurement but I think exhibiting a healthy concern over the setup and tuning will make for a more enjoyable and a possibly safer experience.

[Neal Clayton]

it depends on what you're building. another example...

in a properly mortised/tenoned window sash, each muntin, which is only an inch wide and 1 and 3/8 inches thick to start with, gets...

1) nine dado cuts
2) two rail cutter passes
3) two stile cutter passes

so a board that might be 6 inches long, 1 inch wide, and 1 3/8 inch thick gets 13 cuts before it's ready to fit. can you do all of that with a ruler and a pencil, checking each cut before you ran it? sure but think of how long it would take. if you did it that way it'd take you a week to build half of a window. the only way to build it in a reasonable time frame is to be able to trust the accuracy of your table saw, so that when you get a cut set up, you can sling boards through at that setting without a care in the world and know that they'll all come out the same. if it can't hold an accurate height and your tenon jig can't hold an accurate distance from the blade, every other one will be different, and you'll wind up spending as much time flattening joints as you did cutting parts, which when you're talking about a finished product that might have eight to ten of these 6 inch x 1 inch x 1 3/8 inch parts with 13 cuts, could wind up being as much time as you spent cutting them.

then there's the wood moving on its own. the enemy in building these sorts of things is time, honestly. because as soon as you start cutting boards they start moving again due to heat and moisture changes. so you're racing against the clock to get a bunch of parts cut and ready to fit in one day, because if you leave them until tomorrow the wood can move enough on its own for them to not fit tomorrow, even if they did fit today (unless you have a perfectly climate controlled shop, which is a whole other can of worms).

so again, it depends on the level of accuracy required in what you're building.

[Karl Brogger]

It seems to me we are cutting wood not building the space shuttle or going to the moon.

Exactly! If it doesn't cause problems, then you're just wasting time.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...If it doesn't cause problems, then you're just wasting time...."

I find myself almost agreeing with this. But I would like (I hope without offense) to qualify this statement. It really depends on what you want out of your work. It brings me no joy, spending hours, for example, reducing the "flatness" of my table saw fence from within .005 to .003. But that does not mean that I cannot understand another's need or desire to do so. I totally agree that this, ultimately, will make no real difference in the quality of one's woodwork. But as to whether or not it represents "wasting time"? That has to be left to each individual to decide for themselves.

[Tony Bilello]

Now how accurate can measurements be with a tape? Certainly your eye can not judge the markings in the .001" range.
I am 62 years old and have been woodworking and furniture making for a long time. I think my furniture is of quality construction and a combination of my tape and common sense tells me if my tools are accurate enough.
When I have scraps, I turn them into bowls, some of which are made of several pieces. When you turn a bowl like this you will see your glue joints at all levels of depth. If there are no visable gaps to the human eye no matter how hard you strain your eyes and the vessel will hold liquid without leaking, then thats all of the accuracy you need. If you drill a hole and a dowel fits tightly all of the way around, then it is good and no need to check with a mic, which I dont own.
The key is in the order of construction. It's a matter of which part has to be made in what order to and cut to fit another piece. KIinda like mortise and tenons. Cut the mortise first with a fixed cutting tool like a router bit, then make the tenon with a dado blade (which the height of cut is adjustable) by slowly inching up on it.
Assume you are making a table, even a small one, say 20" X 40" and your 40" length is off by a very very large margin, say 1/32", do you think your eye or anyone else's eye will see it? If it is necessary to fit exactly in a particular place, and it is too large by a hair, just plane it down to size. If you are working carefully and with test strips, it should never be too small.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm not really old enough to be old school, and these old school guys have taught me a bunch. Honestly, repeatability of a setting is what matters. If you set your fence once, and can cut 100 parts all exactly the same, that makes woodworking easier. I use my machinest tools to set up machines, but rarely does anything ever need to get measured very precisely when building a project.

[Phil Thien]

Hah!

But I'll bet dollars to donuts that skilled cabinet makers that scoff at dial indicators spend plenty of time setting up their saw's miter slot to blade parallelism with their combination square. When they're all done, I'll guarantee you that they'll have them to within .002" or .003" (easily done with just a square and your ears).

The dial indicator just lets me do the same job a little faster, and quantify and communicate my results. And when you can get inexpensive units for $20, why not?

And once you have it, why not check other tools? Its satisfies my inner child. I can't be building something all the time.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I'll bet...skilled cabinet makers...spend plenty of time setting up their saw's miter slot to blade parallelism with their combination square."

The last time I checked mine was 20 years ago when I moved into my current shop. I did it by clamping a stick to the miter gauge and cutting it off. Then I moved it to the "back" of the blade, rotating the blade so that I was checking the same tooth. It was dead on. Oddly enough, it hasn't changed in all that time! I have often checked the miter gauge against the blade with a machinist's square and from time to time I have to "dial in" my Unifence which tends to get out of whack. But I have never used a dial indicator for this. Nor have I used a "cheapo" combination square. I have a good "precision" square for this purpose and when it's needed, it's used and it does the job quite nicely, thank you.....

[Chip Lindley]

Paul, you Sir have had an Epiphany!! You have NAILED IT! You see beyond the Smoke And Mirrors foisted upon the woodworking community by purveyors of digital overkill!

My interest in woodworking goes back 40 years! My first-ever wood project at age 19 was a pair of faux-Fender amp speakers. I finger-jointed the corners by HAND, with a 1/4" drill, a hacksaw, and a big bastard file. I did enough tweaking on those fingers to last me a long long time! BUT, the corners fit together and I succeeded in what I set out to build!

My first-ever brand NEW Craftsman tablesaw in 1974 came with very detailed instructions for setting up the saw to cut square. The blade was determined to be parallel with the left miter slot when a pencil held in the miter gauge, made the same mark along the blade from front to back!! The fence was always crappy and always out of alignment, but that blade was Right On with the miter slots! The blade was set to 90 deg. with a small Stanley try square. Square is square when no daylight can be seen between the square and the blade!! Many many setups are successful using the *daylight/no-daylight* method! I still swear by it when anything *digital* has a dead battery!!

In the past, before *digital readout*, fine measuring tools were available to machinists but not generally thought to be necessary to woodworking. A precise square to measure a 90 deg. angle was always a must. I tweaked a steel rafter square to *perfect* squareness with a ball peen hammer and a center punch! MY definition of *perfect* squareness in woodworking is when a square follows a line scribed with a fresh blade in a utility knive, when flipped left or right on a straight edge. There is no need to measure any finer than a sharp scribed line on a piece of wood!

Let us suffice it to say there are many in our midst who revel in high-tech tweaking! IF one man's saw has only .0006" arbor run-out, he can look askance at his neighbor who has .0012" run-out!! But both these saws will SAW accurately! Both are winners! And, both are losers, for putting such emphasis on minute measurements which in all practical reality, have not one thing to do with accurately cutting a piece of WOOD!

IF IT CUTS SQUARE, DON'T TWEAK IT!

[Phil Thien]

Then I moved it to the "back" of the blade, rotating the blade so that I was checking the same tooth. It was dead on.

That's precisely my point. Your method is no less precise, it just provides relative instead of absolute values.

I'll bet there are plenty of people that have used the stick method and are within .001", and I know some people that have used an indicator are happy with .003".

So I don't think it is necessarily the case that the guy w/ the indicator is always the one obsessing.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I don't think it is necessarily the case that the guy w/ the indicator is always the one obsessing."

I never said adjusting your machines was "obsessing". Just that you don't need dial indicators and feeler gauges to get them "close enough" for accurate woodworking.

[Eric Sayre]

Paul, I see two points that are relevant to strict tolerances:

1. We read the manuals when setting up a new machine. We break out our squares and feeler gauges. We start measuring down to .0001 and fiddle until we get it perfect. We are men. That is what we have a tendancy to do. I believe there are only a few things in woodworking that need these "invisible" tolerances. Most things just need a little TLC with a straight-edge or a square.

2. I believe it is a necessary element to have manufacturer's equipment tested for these tolerances. When you look at independent reviews, you can see pattern of quality control/assurance from a random sampling of the machines. As long as the manufacturers know we are comparing their equipment to everyone else's, they have a very tough standard to meet.;)

[Chris Parks]

I wouldn't be without a digitai fence on my TS for one and only one reason, repeatability. It is accurate for sure but the reason I bought it was the repeatability. I find it curious that certain innovation like digital or a new tool like a Domino have almost vehement opposition from certain quarters when the advantages are plain to see. My grandfather was one of those old time craftsman who used any new gadget to save time he could find. They only did stuff the hard way because they had no choice.

[Jay Jolliffe]

I installed a digital height gauge on my planer so it's easier to make repetitive cuts after I change the setting to plane something else. I can go back to the previous setting and it will be right on. The scale that came on the planer isn't that accurate so the height gauge helps a lot.

[Chris Kennedy]

I'm 34, and when I started woodworking, I owned a speed square, a cheap combo square and a Ryobi miter saw. I still have two out of the three -- after building one project, I discovered the speed square was only speed, not square.

Since then, I have increased my tool arsenal, and I bought a nice set of machinist squares and a straightedge. I use those, my eyes and fingers, and everything has been fine. I've never measured runout.

On the other hand, I helped my FIL build some cabinets using his friend's table saw. There was something inherently out of square on that machine and it was a nightmare. That experience almost made me want to obsess about measurement.

Cheers,

Chris

[Jack Camillo]

This thread has to do with measurments. I am a younger guy 33 years old. I have been reading thread after thread about how my table is .000001 out of flat, and my slots are .0000001 out of alignment, and the run out on my arbor is .000001 out, and my drill press chuck ios .000001 out. How important are these measurments? It seems to me we are cutting wood not building the space shuttle or going to the moon.

How were you older guys able to create beautiful furniture with machines that had specs that were completely out of wack? I have never measured the flatness of my jointer, or my table saw, nor the run out of the arbors. In all honesty do you older guys worry about the measurments on your machines?

Paul,
I'd love to acquire the instruments capable of taking such measurements, but not for use in woodworking. They must cost a small fortune. But, seriously, you're correct to a certain extent. Depends on what you are making. I'd venture to throw out a general number for tolerances when talking about medium to large furniture: .005-.01 inch. Anything worse and you could have problems. Maybe not. So much depends on the design and joinery for a particular piece.

[Cody Colston]

I think this topic goes hand-in-hand with the "woodworkers or tool collectors" thread posted recently. Generally speaking, it's the tool collectors who obsess with measuring flatness, runout, parallelism, etc. The woodworkers are simply happy when the cut is good, which is the ultimate test of tool set-up.

I bought a dial indicator a few years ago when I got serious about this woodworking stuff and started reading forums. That's where I got the idea that one was necessary. I think I've used it once.

But, my jointer blades will need changing soon. Maybe I'll get to use it again. :rolleyes:

[dan grant]

not as knowlegable as most but i use my power tools to get close and my hand tools to bring it home, i have a morticing machine but that only hogs out the material the chisels finish it up same with a tenon, table saw gets it close and a plane ceans it up, my saw dosent cut a accurate 90 but a couple passes on the shuteing board(sorry cant spell this morn) gets it fairly accurate, accuracey is important, learning how to work with inaccuracy is just as important, i try for a 1/32-1/16 over the whole project, if each piece were out a 32nd then the piece would look like a piccaso painting,

[Tony Bilello]

I just use machinist squares, engineers squares, a tape measure and my eye for lining up my equipment and always work with test scraps. If for example I am making a particular piece and I need 50 lineer feet of stiles and rails, I will machine 53 feet. The extra 3 feet is in case I ruin 1 stile and mainly for test cuts for things like mortise and tenon joints, half lap joints, hidden screw holes that must be plugged etc. Scrap waste is essential in furniture making whether for the home or for a boat.
Do you digital people plan waste into the project just for equipment settings or do you plan everything down to the last square inch using acurate measurements to get you there?
This is not meant to be sarcastic, I just have a poor writing style. Sorry.

[Phil Thien]

I wonder how many of the users that think it is completely unnecessary to use a dial indicator are using a cabinet saw that was aligned at the factory (before shipping) with ... a dial indicator?

[Keith Outten]

Some of the tolerances people are discussing here are way beyond the capability of my CNC router. Even if I use end mills instead of router bits it is unlikely I could get anywhere near these kinds of tolerances and be able to duplicate them. A ten degree change in temperature in my workshop would also make work of this precision impossible. Then you can factor in the difference in coefficient of expansion between a metal measuring instrument and a piece of wood it adds interest to the conversation.

It is an industrial standard that an unaided human eye cannot read increments on any scale closer than 1/64" which is 15 thousandths. Why be concerned with what you cannot see? It is very rare to find any woodworking machine built to these kinds of tolerances.

:)
.

[Al Weber]

When I get the table saw, joiner, bandsaw, etc. fine tuned to 0.000001 precision, then I need to look for the piece of wood that is accurate to 0.0000001 so the cut I make is perfect. I've gouged my table saw table with a carbide router bit that spun out of the collet and you know what-it doesn't make one bit of difference to the work I do on the table saw. Sure I try to set up and maintain equipment so it works well and is safe but I also know that in the final analysis, my eye - hand coordination is much less precise than the equipment and the materials I am using. But I still enjoy maintaining my tools.

[Mark Bolton]

My only contribution to this topic would be to ask the micrometer crowd if they truly understand, and I mean truly, the chaos they bring to the hobbyists out there. This obsession with tolerances in the thousandths is a real Dr. Phil issue that we may likely see on a future show. There is absolutely no reason wood as a hobby should include such worry and toil over purchasing something as great as a woodworking tool.

I have no choice but to agree with the overall consensus that, being a free country, you can do whatever you choose. That said, just as with tool accuracy, one should equally attempt to quantify the negative aspects of this addiction.

In setting up a new custom shop over the past two months I have had perhaps one hundred conversations with tool reps, distributors, salesmen, used equipment brokers and so on. Overwhelmingly the single most visited topic of conversation brought up by these guys (after our equipment) was this very issue and how this dial indicator movement has put an unrealistic focus on things that have little to no affect on quality of work and productivity. Additionally how such high levels of tolerance are usually, but not always, coupled with extreme bargain hunting. The two simply don't jive.

What I often think about is how this affects the cost of all of our tools and equipment as the cost of these higher tolerances on tools which dont require them are spread over the entire industry. Dont get me wrong, I am not arguing for arbor run out and warped trapezoid shaped tables

On the plus side, I see this movement as the watchdogs over ever diminishing quality control and standards around the world in favor of corporate profit. It just seems that perspective has been lost for many.

For me, I fall into the rarely if ever check it. Having machine shop equipment and woodworking equipment in my shop in reading some of these threads over the years I have gone out to measure just out of curiosity. This curiosity usually finds my equipment in the average or even bad side of the spectrum yet my equipment has earned my entire living for many years.

For many years we did most of our work in the field. Setting up small shops on the job for built-ins, cabinets, and so on. The tolerances on much of this equipment would likely send someone with a micrometer into a Rainman like tailspin, walking in circles, pacing in a corner mumbling to themselves, total melt down. Yet work around the country is produced daily that satisfies the needs of multi million dollar homes.

Mark

[Paul Ryan]

Guys,

My orginal examples of measuments were a complete exageration for purpose of argument. What I was trying to convey was that I find the obsession, that some have with measurments to the 10 thousandths of an inch a waste of time. But I wanted to get the opinion of the older more experienced wood workers.

To me if I get a bad cut I like to blame myself not the machine. I learned long ago to buy better tools. They last longer and do a better job. With the extra price, I get precision that I dont find the need to measure.

After I posted this thread I went out and checked the alignment of miter saw. When I set the blade 90 degress to the table I used a sqare and Chip's daylight measurement. When I set the fence on my jointer I did the same thing, along with my band saw. So I checked them today with a digital angle guage that I borrowed from my neighbor. All 3 tools were with in .1 degree of 90. I believe that to be close enough.
Right now I am with out a table saw so I was unable to check that.

After reading some of this stuff and waiting for my new saw I started to think, to I need to get a dial indicator. Will that make me be a better woodworker because then I know my saw is dialed in to .001 (I do know that that is 1 thousandths, not 1 ten thousandths). And if I can't get it that close I can call the maufacturer and complain.

It has really been a breath of fresh air to read that my methods are the same as most of you have used for 20,30,40 years and even longer. I will stick to my sqaure, daylight, and the ocassional feeler guage. Thanks


By the way felas I worked as a auto mechanic for 17 years. The specs for most crank shaft journals and cam shafts are measured in .0001. Cylinder wall clearances and piston diameter are measured in .001. Specifics are different from engine to engine. But until recently I didn't think I needed those same tolerances from my wood cutting tools.

[Phil Thien]

All 3 tools were with in .1 degree of 90. I believe that to be close enough.

If you were cutting a picture frame, each joint would be out by .2 degrees. If you clamped three joints firmly, your fourth joint wouldn't close properly.

[Phil Thien]

So you guys honestly feel 1/64" is accurate enough. You can undersize your tenon by 1/64" and it still is snug enough in the mortise?

[glenn bradley]

I don't really care about .000001". I do care about .003" on some machines because it is easy to adjust on quality machines and I won't be caused problems down the line with gaps in joinery and such.

If I was knocking out a neighborhood full of kitchens or built sculpted rockers, I would probably have a whole different set of concerns. Those who want precise machines should pursue them. I probably say that because I am one of those guys but, I do draw the line at what I can feel ;-)

[Mike Parzych]

Congratulations Paul, on seeing through the flim-flam that the Digital Readout Age brought to wood working. You'll find that woodworking forums these days seem to have a high number "bragging rights" members, be it the tolerance extremists, ot the "how much my latest tool cost" crowd.

My favorite are the people who post about problems jointing wood, and the responders who immediately suggest screwing around with the table heights, because after all, there must be something wrong with the jointer that dinking with the tables will solve! I bought a jointer factory tuned and haven't touched the table set-up in about 6 years. It's technique and not the machine that's at fault 98% of the time.

Ignore the nit-pickers and just go build something.

[Phil Thien]

My only contribution to this topic would be to ask the micrometer crowd if they truly understand, and I mean truly, the chaos they bring to the hobbyists out there.

What about all the guys that watched NYW and then went to their home center or Sears and purchased a bunch of tools? I wonder how much wood they wasted before they realized that Nahm makes it look easy because somebody spent a half day aligning everything in his shop.

[Paul Ryan]

If you were cutting a picture frame, each joint would be out by .2 degrees. If you clamped three joints firmly, your fourth joint wouldn't close properly.

Phil in the past 2 years since I bought the miter saw and set it up I have built about a dozen picture frames, and trimed out 1/2 of my house. Along with I have built 3 toy boxes, 3 book shelfs that had a base moulding around the bottoms. Funny that .1 degree has never seemed to cause a problem. From the way my miters have turned out I assumed the saw was dead on. But low and behlold I found out today it was way off. I wonder how those picture frames turned out then?

[Phil Thien]

Phil in the past 2 years since I bought the miter saw and set it up I have built about a dozen picture frames, and trimed out 1/2 of my house. Along with I have built 3 toy boxes, 3 book shelfs that had a base moulding around the bottoms. Funny that .1 degree has never seemed to cause a problem. From the way my miters have turned out I assumed the saw was dead on. But low and behlold I found out today it was way off. I wonder how those picture frames turned out then?

Then I assume your saw is at 45.1-degrees. At least the joint will close on the money end.

Yesterday I was in a rush and made a small (4" square) box with mitered corners. I should used the Wixey but used the saw's built-in scale instead. It turned out that my saw was set to 44.9 and because the material was short and inflexible I was unable to close that fourth joint.

I guess I just misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I tried to outline why I feel an indicator is valuable (a faster and more quantitative but not necessarily more accurate method than the age-old methods used by our fathers and grandfathers). But it seems like some people just want to make fun of anyone that uses one.

[Paul Murphy]

I think some who posted are careless with their declarations of the unimportance of accuracy beyond some arbitrary measurement on a ruler versus some 3 or 4 decimal accuracy.

You have to define your terms, because sometimes it will matter. Whether it matters to you depends if you care that the bottom edge of your $120/sheet curly oak veneer plywood just tore out ¼” for the full 4’ of crosscut. That will likely happen if your fence is .004 (the thickness of a sheet of paper) closer to the back of the blade than the front. Do you need a dial indicator to adjust your fence? No, but guess what, any other method that works will produce the same level of accuracy.

If your tablesaw arbor flange has .004” runout at the face it will have 1/64” runout at the tooth. That might be a fairly scratchy cut, and probably will blow out the bottom edge of your expensive veneer plywood. You now have a mini version of a wobble dado. Sorry, but you can’t clean that veneer plywood up on the jointer. Guess what, that runout does matter in certain situations.

Do I care if one case side on a chest is 1/64” wider than the other? Probably not.

Do I care that my planer snipes the first 3” of a board? Yes, and you can see .004” of snipe as if it were the Grand Canyon. Does it matter? You tell me.

If my jointer fence is not a perfect 90, I can mark my boards and match them at glue-up. After all 85+95 still is equal to 180. I would still like my jointer fence at 90, and guess what, 1 degree off on the fence and a foot wide board glued non-complimentary to its twin will be ¼” from flat at the center. DAMHIKT

I’ve set jointer blades with nothing but a straight ruler…but when all the blades drag the ruler standing on edge the same distance, they will measure the same height from the table with a dial indicator. Guess what, I was working to 4 digit accuracy and didn’t even know it at the time. A dial indicator and cutterhead base is the quickest way for me to set planer knives, and gives me the best results in quality of planed wood.

I built lots of nice furniture before I owned a dial indicator. That doesn’t mean I wasn’t concerned with accuracy, it just meant I often wasn’t able to quantify it meaningfully.
The less accurate I was in the primary jointing/planing/sawing, the more I used the handplane , orbital sander, and checkbook to replace that ruined veneer plywood.

When do I care about anything less than 1/64” ? Only when it matters.

[David DeCristoforo]

"When do I care about anything less than 1/64” ? Only when it matters."

If you reread the replies, I think you will find that this has been the consensus all along. My own reply to the OP began with "Not unless it is extreme enough to cause an "actual problem". I (and several others) have only said that one does not need a dial indicator to properly adjust common woodworking machines, not that they should not be properly adjusted.

[Tony Bilello]

So you guys honestly feel 1/64" is accurate enough. You can undersize your tenon by 1/64" and it still is snug enough in the mortise?

An error of 1/64" in a mortise and tenon joint is not acceptable. When I set my dado blade height for a M&T joint, I inch up on it slowly, cut by cut until it feels right. That is how it is set up. It only takes about several cuts and under 3 minutes. An actual measurement is totally irrelevant so why bother.
When I set my blade to table and to fence with squares and do the 'cant see daylight' thing I have no idea what it mic's out to and dont care. I know all my parts will be right. For all I know it may be less than a 1/10,000 error. I just dont quantify it.
If you make test cuts on your miter saw to make a frame, in two or three tries you should have it set right. The final assembly will tell the truth and not the gage whether it be digital or just an engineers square. No one is condeming digital gages here, just saying they are not necessary. If you like to use them, go for it.

[Cody Colston]

Phil, I would never make fun of anyone using a dial indicator but personally, I just haven't found one necessary for tool set-up. My comments were directed at woodworkers who obsess over tool accuracy to the point of ridiculousness. Wood moves and a cut that is accurate to the nth degree now will be something else when the temperature or humidity changes.

Instruments capable of .001 measurement haven't been available to the general public for all that long and there have been literally tens of thousands of very fine pieces of furniture and other wooden articles that were crafted prior to their availability.

It's a personal decision to use them or not but it is misleading to tout them as necessary.

[Andrew Joiner]

Ignore the nit-pickers and just go build something.

Yes, build something, but to what tolerance?

[Tony Bilello]

If we have an accurate engineers square and line up so that we can't see daylight what level of accuracy do we have?
If I make a motise and tenon joint and I cant feel the joint, how accurate is my sense of touch?
If I strain real hard with my eyes closed and I can ever so barely feel a lap joint, how much is that in thousandth's of an inch?
I know I can definitely feel the thickness of a single sheet of paper laying flat on a table.
I can certainly feel a human hair on a flat surface. Actually a thin old man's hair at that. See what you guys are doing to me? I'm pulling my hair out.
My guess is that our senses are more accurate than we think.
I always make test cuts and fits before any joinery, when I cant feel the joint, it is set.

Any experts here on the human senses?

BTW, this is a great thread regardless of whether you are a digital guy or someone technologically challenged.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Any experts here on the human senses?"

As a general rule it is best not to use the words "human" and "sense" in the same sentence....

[Clifford Mescher]

Phil, I would never make fun of anyone using a dial indicator but personally, I just haven't found one necessary for tool set-up. My comments were directed at woodworkers who obsess over tool accuracy to the point of ridiculousness. Wood moves and a cut that is accurate to the nth degree now will be something else when the temperature or humidity changes.

Instruments capable of .001 measurement haven't been available to the general public for all that long and there have been literally tens of thousands of very fine pieces of furniture and other wooden articles that were crafted prior to their availability.

It's a personal decision to use them or not but it is misleading to tout them as necessary.
They have been around and available alot longer then you may think they have. Clifford.

EDIT:
The modern vernier caliper, reading to thousandths of an inch, was invented by American Joseph R. Brown in 1851. His Brown and Sharpe company inaugurated true precision manufacture in the United States. It was the first practical tool for exact measurements that could be sold at a price within the reach of ordinary machinists.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliper#cite_note-4) Note: That is about 158 years.

[Mark Bolton]

What about all the guys that watched NYW and then went to their home center or Sears and purchased a bunch of tools? I wonder how much wood they wasted before they realized that Nahm makes it look easy because somebody spent a half day aligning everything in his shop.

I highly doubt that. I cut my teeth in the trade in the central MA area with many guys who apprenticed in and around Norm when he was young. He is a well seasoned woodworker by anyones standards. A frame to finish kind of guy and a true mechanic.

As other posts have said, its more often technique coupled with an intense understanding of "mechanics". This is not mechanics like wrenches, nuts, bolts, grease fittings, etc., this is general mechanics. How things in the world interface with other things and each other. With regards to woodworking, higher tolerance machines of course make it more convenient, repeatable, and so on. However there is a practical limit which is drastically exceeded by the individuals this thread speaks of. Have you ever seen craftsmen make windsor chairs? They bore compound angle holes with a brace "eyeballing" the angle spotting off a bevel gauge sitting an inch or more away from the bit. We can play tiddlywinks out at the extremes all you want but I am talking the middle of the road.

I am in complete agreement that substantial amounts of runout in any rotating tool is unacceptable. A tenth of a degree out of square on a miter saw is a bit much for me but I would venture to guess if he is not having problems with his work (which he would be at a tenth) this reading was likely in the digital meter or the method. I can say however that I can fudge a tenth with my SCMS. I often cheat cuts using the flexure to my advantage.

I simply dont think you can argue with the people who are making a living with tools they rarely if ever spend hours "tuning". There just isnt any profit in tuning as an obsession. If you have a tool that isnt performing it gets tweaked or replaced. In the shop we have just gotten on line for instance several tools landed and were working the following day. They got a rough alignment (square/daylight) and then had to get to work paying the bills. I surely could sit there for hours with feeler gauges, verniers, dial indicators, test cut a pile of lumber and ply, and get them spot on but I have to make money. They are all surely off, but the work is on.

Mark

[Phil Thien]

I highly doubt that. I cut my teeth in the trade in the central MA area with many guys who apprenticed in and around Norm when he was young. He is a well seasoned woodworker by anyones standards. A frame to finish kind of guy and a true mechanic.

They may have apprenticed around Norm, but I'll bet they didn't apprentice in Norm. :eek:


As other posts have said, its more often technique coupled with an intense understanding of "mechanics". This is not mechanics like wrenches, nuts, bolts, grease fittings, etc., this is general mechanics. How things in the world interface with other things and each other. With regards to woodworking, higher tolerance machines of course make it more convenient, repeatable, and so on. However there is a practical limit which is drastically exceeded by the individuals this thread speaks of. Have you ever seen craftsmen make windsor chairs? They bore compound angle holes with a brace "eyeballing" the angle spotting off a bevel gauge sitting an inch or more away from the bit.

Well yeah, but then they twist and push the wood to fit the hole.



I am in complete agreement that substantial amounts of runout in any rotating tool is unacceptable. A tenth of a degree out of square on a miter saw is a bit much for me but I would venture to guess if he is not having problems with his work (which he would be at a tenth) this reading was likely in the digital meter or the method. I can say however that I can fudge a tenth with my SCMS. I often cheat cuts using the flexure to my advantage.

Yep. Sometimes you know how much English to put on a tool to make it do what you need it to, been there and done that.


I simply dont think you can argue with the people who are making a living with tools they rarely if ever spend hours "tuning". There just isnt any profit in tuning as an obsession.

I don't think anyone is advocating that.



If you have a tool that isnt performing it gets tweaked or replaced. In the shop we have just gotten on line for instance several tools landed and were working the following day. They got a rough alignment (square/daylight) and then had to get to work paying the bills. I surely could sit there for hours with feeler gauges, verniers, dial indicators, test cut a pile of lumber and ply, and get them spot on but I have to make money. They are all surely off, but the work is on.
Mark

So... When you're adjusting a tool, you're tweaking it. But when I'm adjusting a tool, I'm obsessing? Just kidding. I know what you mean. And I understand the time constraints and the goals of a pro shops.

I think most of this boils down to what you're trying to do, and how you're learning to do it.

For example, my goal is to build a Krenov cabinet. Krenov uses mostly Inca tools in his home workshop. The jointer/planer (I have one, too) manual calls for the knives to be .004" higher than the outfeed table. They even sell (sold?) an indicator for the purpose of setting them. And the table saw manual has instructions for getting the miter slot to blade alignment to within .002" (or .001"?).

My point is, I could take your word and the word of others here that this stuff just doesn't matter. But I'm trying to build a Krenov cabinet, so I'm going to do what Krenov did when he was building his cabinets. Maybe Krenov bought all that stuff and never paid attention to the instructions. But he has written numerous articles on the importance of precision (in doweling, setting hardware, and other matters). So I'm going to do what he did.

If I was only trying to build kitchen cabinets and radiator covers, I wouldn't care so much. But the honest truth is, even when I do make a medicine cabinet, I think the results are improved by the effort I've put into machine setup.

But you gotta at least agree with me on this final point: We're beating a dead horse.

[Bill Wyko]

As much as I don't check for many tollerances. If you want to make joints like a double dovetail, you've got to be on the money. Here's an example.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/21164451/347060998.jpg

[David DeCristoforo]

"If you want to make joints like a double dovetail, you've got to be on the money..."

And in which case the "tolerance" is zero. What do you use to measure that? Actually you could have a gap of several light bands between those pieces and never even notice it....;)

[Bill Wyko]

eyeballed it.;) I swear.:D

[Phil Thien]

As much as I don't check for many tollerances. If you want to make joints like a double dovetail, you've got to be on the money. Here's an example.


Those drawer fronts are mesmerizing. What is that, some sort of curly cherry?

[Bill Wyko]

Thanks, it's Quilted Maple. Here's a few more.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/21164451/347067969.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/21164451/346978780.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/21164451/347060995.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/21164451/347060988.jpg

What's funny is, I had to do many adjustments the old school way to get this piece right.

[Cody Colston]

They have been around and available alot longer then you may think they have. Clifford.

EDIT:
The modern vernier caliper, reading to thousandths of an inch, was invented by American Joseph R. Brown in 1851. His Brown and Sharpe company inaugurated true precision manufacture in the United States. It was the first practical tool for exact measurements that could be sold at a price within the reach of ordinary machinists.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliper#cite_note-4) Note: That is about 158 years.


Okay, assuming every woodworker has had access to a vernier caliper for the past 158 years...which I somehow doubt very seriously.

What about all of the tens of thousands of beautifully crafted pieces that came before that time? In the history of woodworking, 158 years is nothing more than a blip...you know, the ancient Egyptians invented dovetail joinery.

It's also generally agreed that the 18th Century was the golden age of furniture design and craftsmanship. It's a fact that many of those pieces are still in existence today and still as beautiful and sound as the day they were completed...without the use of a vernier caliper or a single digital instrument. Note: the 18th Century ended 51 years BEFORE the invention you cited.

So, since woodworking has been going on for millenia and what we consider fine woodworking for at least a few hundred years, I will argue that the mid 19th century isn't that long ago in comparison.

BTW, I fully expected someone to do a google search and present exactly the info you presented. Nice try.

[Clifford Mescher]

Phil, I would never make fun of anyone using a dial indicator but personally, I just haven't found one necessary for tool set-up. My comments were directed at woodworkers who obsess over tool accuracy to the point of ridiculousness. Wood moves and a cut that is accurate to the nth degree now will be something else when the temperature or humidity changes.

Instruments capable of .001 measurement haven't been available to the general public for all that long and there have been literally tens of thousands of very fine pieces of furniture and other wooden articles that were crafted prior to their availability.

It's a personal decision to use them or not but it is misleading to tout them as necessary.
My reference was to make it perfectly clear that measuring instruments have been available for over one and a half centuries. If a newbie read the "all that long" quote, he might assume that verniers had just recently been available. Sorry if it fuffled feathers as I personally believe that they(verniers) are not necessary but many feel that they are convenient.
Many ways to get to point "B" from point "A". Didn't trust my wife's GPS and always kept my map handy.. Probably will keep map in glove compartment just to be on the "safe" side. Clifford.

[Cody Colston]

Sorry if it fuffled feathers as I personally believe that they(verniers) are not necessary but many feel that they are convenient.

No ruffled feathers. Just a different perspective.

[Lee Schierer]

I have been woodworking for over 45 years and have paid my dues when parts weren't cut right and the final fit up didn't turn out as good as I might have hoped. One thing I stress to new woodworkers I have mentored is to get the best tools you can afford and understand their capabilities and limitations. A little care in the set up when making pieces to insure their accuracy goes a long ways toward building square assemblies.

My TS is a Craftsman contractor stye saw. When I bought it it was what I could reasonably afford and justify for a hobbyist. I would have loved a Delta Uni saw,but it wasn't in my price range at the time. Over the years, I have upgraded my fence since the original one caused a lot of grief. I've also aligned my saw with a dial indicator, because it was faster for me than the pencil on the miter gauge method. I also found that the pencil method only got me to .006" on the alingment of the blade to tne miter slot. When I spent the time aligning my saw, it was like purchaseing a new saw. It no longer hacked the wood, leaving burn marks along the sides. Not I get tooth mark free rip cuts where you have to look close to tell which edge was jointed and which was sawn. I've seen other aluminum topped saws that were out as much as 1/16 from being flat, try cutting anything square on a table like that.

Recently LOML purchased a digital angle gauge for me. I had previously used a platic drafting triangle. The first thing I did with it was to check my saw blade for 90 degrees. I was within .2, probably good enough for most cuts. Not bad for using a plastic drafting triangle. However, I also found that my tenon cutter was off .3 degrees, which made tenon sides sloped making one end a tight fit and loose fit on the other end. I can now get my blade titleted to 45 degrees and know it is there and back to 90 in half the time it took me to do it by eye.


I also use digital calipers mostly for checking board thickness from my planer. Edge jointing two planed boards that are more than .005 off in thickness takes time. Getting both the same thickness using the planer with digital calipers is much faster.

Do I need digital precision to make good items out of wood. The answer is no, but they can make life easier if not used to excess. Try cutting eight pieces of wood 18" long to make an octagonal frame so that each end is angled exactly 22.5 degrees so that all the corners meet properly and you may retink your need for improved accuracy.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/octagonal%20table.jpg

[Dave Anderson NH]

Paul's question about accuracy has been discussed here largely in a single dimension (pun intended). What everyone has discussed is the numerical system of measurement, not necessarily accuracy itself which is independent of numbers. In the 17th and 18th centuries and quite often right up to today folks use devices like story sticks, tools with lockable fences, and other aids. These are aids and can help or serve as a guide, but still don't address accuracy. Accuracy comes from technique and setups, not necessarily tools tuned to a particular degree of fineness, though this can certainly assist. As an example, when cutting the aprons for a rectangular table you would use a stop on your table saw's miter gage or on your cutoff sled or sliding table this is a setup albeit simple. If you were performing the same operation by hand, you would find a method to clamp each pair of aprons together and cut them both at once with your hand saw, this is both technique and setup. I could bore you with similar examples, but you get the idea.

[Clifford Mescher]

This thread has to do with measurments. I am a younger guy 33 years old. I have been reading thread after thread about how my table is .000001 out of flat, and my slots are .0000001 out of alignment, and the run out on my arbor is .000001 out, and my drill press chuck ios .000001 out. How important are these measurments? It seems to me we are cutting wood not building the space shuttle or going to the moon.

How were you older guys able to create beautiful furniture with machines that had specs that were completely out of wack? I have never measured the flatness of my jointer, or my table saw, nor the run out of the arbors. In all honesty do you older guys worry about the measurments on your machines?
I do not worry about it but it is nice to slide an indicator up my miter slot to see the parallelism between my fence, blade and slot, for an example. It just gives me peace of mind. And it only takes a minute. Clifford.

[Mike Robbins]

Is it just me, or are we all in raging agreement?

1) If it matters, then measure.
2) If it doesn't, then don't.
3) If a dial or digital meter helps with making #1 easier within the constraint of #2, then use it.

[Dale Lesak]

WE all have to blame somthing for a goof up, why not the machine?

[Mark Bolton]

But you gotta at least agree with me on this final point: We're beating a dead horse.

The horse was already dead when the post started. I dont think the issue any longer is if .001 is good or bad. Its the subtleties behind it that is being discussed. The couch issues.

Mark