20amp circuit question

[Rob Littleton]

Guys,

I am adding a bunch of power outlets to the new shop and have come against a question I cant seem to find the answer to (YET!!!)......I bet you guys can change this........

I have 24x24 walls and I am running electricity (alternating outlets to breaker each 4) and, according to the code, I can't run more than 50feet of number 12 before I have to make it number 10. My question, Is that 50 foot from the breaker to the outlet, or is that 50 foot accumulative for the circuit? There are about 10 feet between each outlet but 24+24+24 is over 50 foot.

ANy help please.

cheers

[Rob Russell]

Rob,

It's actually not an NEC requirement that you limit voltage drop, but it is recommended.

On your problem, I'd take the simple way out. From your panelboard, split and run separate feeds in each direction. That way you don't have to worry about more than 50'. Put an oversized (4 11/16" x 4 11/16" x 2 1/8 deep) box right next to your panel to hold the (2) GFCI receptacles and feed off in both directions from there. With (2) 12-2 in and (4) 12-2 out, you'll need at least 38.25 cubic inches of space and that big box is over 45 cu. You'll still want every bit of room for all that wire.

Suggestion - use a combination of white and ivory receptacles. That will make it easier to figure out which GFI tripped. The white and ivory won't be so different that it'll look funny (like white and brown), but there is enough difference to save you a few headaches. Also, put them more than 54" or so off the floor so you can lean plywood against the wall without covering the receptacles.

Rob

[Jim Becker]

Suggestion - use a combination of white and ivory receptacles. That will make it easier to figure out which GFI tripped. The white and ivory won't be so different that it'll look funny (like white and brown), but there is enough difference to save you a few headaches.
What an interesting idea, Rob!

[Lou Morrissette]

Great idea about the 54'' from the floor, Bob. Very frustrating trying to find the outlet behind sheet goods. Been there.:(

[Rob Littleton]

Rob,

It's actually not an NEC requirement that you limit voltage drop, but it is recommended.

On your problem, I'd take the simple way out. From your panelboard, split and run separate feeds in each direction. That way you don't have to worry about more than 50'. Put an oversized (4 11/16" x 4 11/16" x 2 1/8 deep) box right next to your panel to hold the (2) GFCI receptacles and feed off in both directions from there. With (2) 12-2 in and (4) 12-2 out, you'll need at least 38.25 cubic inches of space and that big box is over 45 cu. You'll still want every bit of room for all that wire.

Suggestion - use a combination of white and ivory receptacles. That will make it easier to figure out which GFI tripped. The white and ivory won't be so different that it'll look funny (like white and brown), but there is enough difference to save you a few headaches. Also, put them more than 54" or so off the floor so you can lean plywood against the wall without covering the receptacles.

Rob

Great ideas and thansk a lot.

I love the ideas of the different colors and in the shop, there will be 4 circuits so i was gonna mark them with different color dots using a sharpie.

Now, with regard to splitting the circuits, here's the deal (sigh).......

They have added 3 walls and the forth wall is the existing side of the garage that will be broken through after the roof is on and the new room is secure. I was trying to get one jump ahead of them and have the wiring in place before they added the new sub panel. I deliberatly left the furthest wall unwired thinking about the limitations and to over come that, I was gonna wait til the roof has been added then take the short route over the trusses to the other side.

My question was really a question of can I get all the circuits in now (typical impatient male, wants my shop built yesterday)....anyways, great ideas and I appreciate your input.

I am going out now to move the outlets from 40 inches to 50. Great idea.

Thanks a lot guys.

You lot rock :-)

[Rob Littleton]

Just got thru moving those outlets to 50 inches. Looks kinda cool actually. My contractor came by and laughed but hey ho.......

Anyways, so, back to the original question I guess now I have had some more thought.

In the U.K, we have circuits called Ring Mains, Where the cable goes to all the outlets in a daisy chain fashion and back to the breaker. Meaning, the cable starts at the breaker and ends at the breeaker. Two terminations in one hole of the breaker.

Is this legal out here? Is this what you meant by splitting the loads?

I have outlet number 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4.

1 disy chains to 1 and 1 and 1 and 2 daisy chains to 2 and 2 and 2 etc......when I get to the other side, once the roof is on, I can continue back to the breaker and complete the ring.

Is this the most confusing post you have ever read??????

Thanks

[Rob Russell]

Rob,

Ring circuits are illegal in the US. Ours are wired in more of a "tree root" fashion.

We can use the ring circuit, though, to explain what I'm talking about.


Start with a standard UK ring, where both ends of the ring are fed by the breaker. You have some number of receptacles on that ring circuit. If you want to have multiple circuits (i.e., more than 1 ring, where each ring is fed by its own breaker), that's perfectly fine.
Insert a GFCI receptacle between a breaker and the ring. The GFCI receptacle has 1 supply conductor coming in from the breaker (to the terminals marked "Line") and 2 feed conductors going out to the ring (from the terminals marked "Load"). The GFCI protects all of the receptacles on the ring. If the GFCI trips, all the receptacles on that ring are killed/protected by the GFCI.
Go to the point in the ring farthest away from where the ring connects to the GFCI. Remove that section of wiring that finishes the ring and connects those 2 receptacles farthest away from the GFCI. You now have a break in the ring, with 2 sections of wiring and each section still supplied by that GFCI receptacle.


You now have a normally configured American, GFCI-protected circuit.

Make sense?

Question - where is the new subpanel going?

Rob

[Rob Littleton]

Rob,

Ring circuits are illegal in the US. Ours are wired in more of a "tree root" fashion.

We can use the ring circuit, though, to explain what I'm talking about.


Start with a standard UK ring, where both ends of the ring are fed by the breaker. You have some number of receptacles on that ring circuit. If you want to have multiple circuits (i.e., more than 1 ring, where each ring is fed by its own breaker), that's perfectly fine.
Insert a GFCI receptacle between a breaker and the ring. The GFCI receptacle has 1 supply conductor coming in from the breaker (to the terminals marked "Line") and 2 feed conductors going out to the ring (from the terminals marked "Load"). The GFCI protects all of the receptacles on the ring. If the GFCI trips, all the receptacles on that ring are killed/protected by the GFCI.
Go to the point in the ring farthest away from where the ring connects to the GFCI. Remove that section of wiring that finishes the ring and connects those 2 receptacles farthest away from the GFCI. You now have a break in the ring, with 2 sections of wiring and each section still supplied by that GFCI receptacle.


You now have a normally configured American, GFCI-protected circuit.

Make sense?

Question - where is the new subpanel going?

Rob
I think that makes sense.

Let me see if I understood you.

Going to the "end" of each ring and instead of connecting back to the breaker to complete the ring, dont. Just make that the end of the circuit correct? I think you are saying to put GFCI on those end of the circuits?

The sub panel is going on the wall in the shop to the left of the new door way that is yet to be made. Once that doorway is made, I can then run cables over the trusses to the other side (trusses should arrive this morning).

Thanks for your help Bob.

regards

[Dennis Peacock]

Let's make is simple....after all, residential wiring is pretty simple once you get the basic understanding.

1. Pull a wire staring at the breaker box / panel.
2. Pull that wire to the 1st plug in the planned circuit.
3. That wire will be the "Line" side of the GFCI plug.
4. Pull a wire from the 1st plug to the 2nd plug in the planned circuit.
5. This will will be the "Load" side of the GFCI plug.
6. Pull a wire from the 2nd plug to the 3rd plug.
7. Pull a wire from the 3rd plug to the 4th plug (end of your circuit), which is what most electricians call the dead end of a circuit.

All common wiring is done in this fashion...even commercial wiring. In another sense of the method...it's kinda like running copper pipe to get water from one box to the next until you get to where you want to go, while branching off at designated places.

Left wall would be circuit 1, rear wall circuit 2, right wall circuit 3 and light circuit would be circuit 4.

Check your local codes as it may require a seperate #4 bare copper wire to an 8' ground rod for a seperate grounding spot for your shop.

even though I am an Ex-Electrician.!!! ;)
<B>The usual disclaimers apply here....</B>

[Rob Littleton]

THANK YOU!!!

By George I think I got it...........finally

Cheers guys.

[Rob Russell]

Gee - you get it and after I've drawn this. Well - I'll upload it anyway.

[Rob Littleton]

Hey thaks a lot Bob.

Really am grateful for your time and effort.

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed and a picture to me says it all.

You have just confirmed that I got it.

Kind regards to all

[Thomas Canfield]

Another thing to consider is some high outlets. These are useful for later adding lights, fans, or similar things that you don't want cords hanging on the wall. On my 10 foot walls, I had outets put close to each corner about 9 foot high. Not for your every day use as an outlet, but handy for some things.

[Rob Russell]

Left wall would be circuit 1, rear wall circuit 2, right wall circuit 3 and light circuit would be circuit 4.



I think Rob was planning to stagger the receptacles, so he has access to more than 1 circuit along any given wall. That's how I'd do it, rather than 1 circuit per wall.

YMMV.

[Rob Littleton]

Another thing to consider is some high outlets. These are useful for later adding lights, fans, or similar things that you don't want cords hanging on the wall. On my 10 foot walls, I had outets put close to each corner about 9 foot high. Not for your every day use as an outlet, but handy for some things.

Yeah, good idea.

I have, in the corners of the shop, a double outlet up by the ceiling and they are just gonna be spurs off the quad outlets down below.

I thought of a point for a clock or other possibilities.

Thanks