Diamond Stone - Lubrication?

[Doug Hobkirk]

Should I use a lubricant with my diamond stones? If so, what?

[Scott Brihn]

Yes - I use water; others claim success with mineral spirits.

[Casey Gooding]

Mineral spirits lasts longer and won't rust your tools.

[David Gilbert]

I use lamp oil. I think the diamond stones cut better with the lamp oil than with water. It's thicker than mineral spirits and doesn't smell at all (unlike kerosene).

[Wilbur Pan]

I like mineral oil. Actually, Johnson's baby oil, which is just mineral oil, but smells good.

[Ben Rafael]

Camelia oil. I prefer it because it is light and easier to clean off.

[Jim Gronowski]

Water, it's quick, no mess.

[Fred Krow]

Mineral oil, no rust from steel swarf.

Regards,
FK

[Don C Peterson]

I like mineral spirits for two reasons, it evaporates and doesn't leave a mess like honing (mineral) oil, and it doesn't cause rust like water so if I let the mineral spirits sit on the diamond stone and go back to work...no problems.

[george wilson]

Honing fluids for any use are primarily to float the swarf off. If too thick,or slippery,they can also hold the tool away from the stone to some degree,and make the stone not cut as well as would a thinner fluid,so you work harder. Honing fluids,or cutting fluids should promote cutting,not lubrication.

I use water with a few drops of detergent in it,and a little Aqua Cut,water soluable,thin cutting oil. I got my recipe from Lynton McKenzie,one of the foremost gun engravers in the World,now deceased. A good friend. Google him.

I think the few drops of detergent alone in water would be fine. As far as I know,all the commercial products for use with diamond compounds are water based. Just wiping the tools dry with a dry paper towel seems to keep the rust away for me,because so little water is involved. Years ago,when I was experimenting with water stones,I did have some problems with rust.I think it was because there was a lot more water,and a lot messier process.

[Richard Dooling]

Based on George's advice I have been using water with a few drops of detergent and find this to be a very clean, effective and relatively neat system. This is much more effective than water alone.

George, is Aqua Cut available locally? I'm in Norfolk.

[george wilson]

Richard,I got mine from MSC. I got a bottle less than a pint,or at the most a pint. I have none here at the house. I really never get down to Norfolk. Is Henry Walke still there? In the current economy,who knows who is still there. I wouldn't worry too much about the Aqua cut.Only a few drops were used. At least,they shouldn't be able to hit you with a hazardous shipping charge on water soluable cutting oil!!

[Marc Casebolt]

Sharpening some chisels today and tried water with detergent (before I read this), and it worked well with a diamond stone, ceramic stones, and on a Norton 8K. The Norton allways seemed 'sticky' when I used it, but with the soap it was much smoother to use.

The rust on the diamond plate does not seem to affect it other than looking kind of dirty. I don't think the plate is rusting.

Marc

[george wilson]

What rust,Marc? I never have rust on the diamond plate. Don't you wipe it dry? The Diamond plate is nickel plated.I don't think it could easily rust. Any rust is from steel particles left by the tools being sharpened. Clean the diamond stone with a stiff brush and soapy water,and leave it dry.It should come off,unless somehow it has been on there a long time,and has gotten attached.I am glad you like the soap and water.I think it is the best,too.

[Marc Casebolt]

George,

You're right, it's just rusty filings that stick to the plate. I guess I should clean it better, but it does not hurt the cutting action as far as I can tell. I do wipe it off when I'm done using it, and store it dry.

Marc

[george wilson]

May not affect the cutting action,but I wonder if the water left on the stone might eventually get around the diamonds and get rust started under them? I don't know. Might be 100% nickle under them,or maybe the diamonds rest on bare steel.I don't know if they plate the stones,lay on the diamonds,and plate more to bond the diamonds,or if they lay diamonds on steel,then plate. Of course,nickel is usually plated over copper. If so,copper is a very thin coat.Could the diamonds possibly punch little holes through a few molecules of copper from the honing action against them? This is getting too involved!!!

I think it best to leave the stone clean.

[bridger berdel]

Should I use a lubricant with my diamond stones? If so, what?


most of the time I use diamond stones dry.

I tend to sharpen as I go, that is touch up at the first sign of edge loss if not before, so I'm not usually doing long sessions with a diamond stone. if I'm on site somewhere I'll wipe the stone down every few strokes with a rag to keep metal from building up in it. if I'm at home I'll often sharpen at the sink, using hot water and perhaps a drop of detergent. when done I'll wash the tool in hot water and dry it. the heat takes care of any residual dampness- but then I live in a desert, so this kind of treatment might not work for some of you in wetter climates.

in any case, if the stone gets clogged, a good scrub with scowering powder followed by soapy water will get it clean.

[george wilson]

A lubricant is desirable on diamonds. I do not know of any commercial diamond honing done dry. Diamond's carbon can migrate into steel,causing the steel to become brittle right at the edge. Diamond is also extremely brittle.Honing with no lube is an invitation for your diamonds to wear down from fracturing.

Are you aware that washing knives in hot water breaks down their edges? Why not use cooler water.

[Marc Casebolt]

Hey George,

You are right, this is getting kind of involved. I think that if you saw my diamond plate you would see that there is no real problem aside from looking a bit orange. You have me wondering now if it will clean off, so later I will give it a scrub and report back.

Marc

[Marc Casebolt]

Reporting back.

Scrubbed with brass brush, hot water, and Ajax (R with a circle around it).
A bunch of gunk came off, more than I would have thought, but it is still a bit orange-ish. Thank you George for pointing this out to me. I will clean my diamond plate better from now on.

Marc

[george wilson]

I wonder if a product that takes iron stain off would clean your stone? But,I'd be careful,it may attack the nickle also. I left a part soaking in automotive Gunk brand cleaner,and it began to strip away the nickle plate on it.

[george wilson]

P.S.,Since the backs of the stones are also plated,you could try putting a drop of the rust remover on it to see if the nickle is attacked.

[Wilbur Pan]

I primarily use waterstones for sharpening, but I have a coarse DMT diamond stone that I bought for grinding out nicks, reshaping of bevels, that sort of thing. I haven't been real happy with the DMT because it was slow, and it seemed to clog up with swarf pretty quickly, including getting that orange buildup, but I've made a change to how I use the diamond stone that seems to make it work better.

First, I've started using mineral oil as a lubricant. Actually, it's Johnson's baby oil -- it's exactly the same stuff as mineral oil, but it smells real nice. Second, I keep a paper towel close by as I use it. As I use the diamond stone, swarf will accumulate. As it starts to accumulate, I'll use the paper towel to blot the swarf and oil away, and put some more oil on the diamond stone. This seems to keep the swarf from accumulating in between the diamond particles, and keeps the diamond stone from slowing down as I use it. The mineral oil does a much better job than water in clearing the swarf, although I haven't tried the detergent trick. The orange buildup is going away as well.

[Jim Gronowski]

Diamond's carbon can migrate into steel,causing the steel to become brittle right at the edge.


That sounds like an old wives tale to me. Please back up that statement.

Also, whatever damage an edge sustains being washed in hot water is nothing compared to, I don't know, cutting a solid piece of wood...

[george wilson]

Jim,not an old wive's tale. This subject has been discussed at much length on the Practical Machinist's Forum ages ago. This is why diamond wheels are for grinding in CARBIDE grinders. I submit that using the diamonds dry could possibly induce some of that migration , if too vigorous a honing action occured,so I suggest lubrication.

Usually the migration occurs at higher rpm's,but I have a special 200 rpm diamond grinder that can be used on steel,though you should still use lubrication.

I am a long experienced machinist. I can only offer advice,including not washing your knives in hot water. Why don't you do some research of your own? Never mind googling washing knives in hot water. This seems to be a fact unknown to most. They seem only concerned about getting the knives clean,though that can be done very well with just moderately warm water and soap. The water would have to be boiling anyway,to kill bacteria,and sustained for some time like in an autoclave. Before stainless steel,surgeons were frustrated because the autoclaves would dull their carbon steel knives.

Here's another for you not to believe: It is very bad to leave files in direct,hot sunlight. It seems that little tid bits like I've mentioned,except the diamond one,which is current technology,are just about unknown to the newer generations.Too bad things get lost,but that's the way the World goes.

[Ron Petley]

As far as I know the boiling temp of water is way below the temp needed to change the steel in a blade ( well a normal one anyways). I will say it is not great for most handles though.
Cheers Ron.

[george wilson]

Ron,the boiling point of water is too low,of course,but it degrades the microscopic cutting edge of the blade,not the whole blade. Usually,for most common tools,400 degrees is about what you draw a cutting tool to. 750 for a spring.

[Richard Niemiec]

I don't know much about metallurgy, but somehow my finely tuned gut is telling me to stick with George's analysis......

George, thanks for sharing your experience. RN

[Jeff Willard]

I've spent the last 30 yrs. in the retail meat industry. Many moons ago I was told that if I wanted my knives to remain sharp, to wash them in cold water. I have followed this advice, and rarely do I have to introduce my blades to a rock. Think about how thin the cutting edge on a knife, or chisel, or plane iron is. Then put it in hot water. The hot water will distort the edge. I pass this advice on to the newer people in the trade, and illustrate the phenomena during the clean up process. Modern blocks are made of polyethylene, and are relatively thin. When hot water is sprayed on them, they warp upward. I don't have any hard data to reinforce this, but I, and the others that follow my advice, have knives that retain an edge. Those that don't, complain about dull knives.

[george wilson]

Thank heavens someone else is an old timer who knows better!!!

[Jeff Willard]

Well, at 47 I don't really consider myself an "old timer":eek:, but I do like to think that I'm open minded, and can learn something from the wisdom and experience of those that came before me.;)

[george wilson]

Jeff,you are wise!! Most of my little tid bits also came from old timers I was able to meet. A lot of those guys worked in a much less well equipped era.they learned how to do fantastic things with a minimal amount of equipment. Very early on,a milling machine in many machine shops consisted of a milling attachment on a lathe. I can remember being in shops where they talked about how they wanted a Bridgeport vertical mill. Today,nearly every small machine shop has a used one,or a Taiwan clone,as I do.

I got off track,but my point was,that they knew so many little secrets that are today being lost. I want to pass on these type of bits of information,if people will only listen.

[John Guarino]

Sometimes what Jeff and George said. Sometimes what Jim said. I'll try a reason for the difference.

Experience says a thin carbon steel edge responds to heat. It works the same way with straight razors, but worse. Oldtimers used a linen strop before the leather strop; the purpose of the linen is to heat the blade so the leather will work its magic.

The edge is only a few molecules thick. Thus it heats up fast. Hot water, acting as a rather large heat sink, imparts more heat than a strop. So it is easy to overheat those few molecules and mush up (technical term, that) the edge.

Now on Jim's side, in some cases, carbon steel does not dull so fast. For example, I scrape a cutting board with a carbon steel scraper, clean it in hot soapy water, and wipe it off. I reuse it several times before I need to resharpen (raise a new burr).

The physical situation is different for a thicker piece of steel, ground at a 90 degree angle with a burr. This may explain the contrary opinions.

Anybody want to experiment on plane blades and chisels?