Making a marking knife

[Zahid Naqvi]

Need one, and decided to make it myself rather than purchase. Questions....

1. Can I make a handle from a pen blank
2. What's a good source for the ferrule and the actual metal blade.

thanks
Zahid

[James Carmichael]

Zahid,

Get with Dave on this one, he is the man when it comes marking-knives, a look at some of his may well persuade you to buy rather than build. ;)

For tool steel, I believe both McMaster-Carr an National Online Supply have oil-quench steel, and Lee Valley has brass ferules in most any size.

If you are determined to make your own, I would strongly recommend that you read up on it (Garrett Hack's book on Hand Tools has a chapter on tool-making) and above all, observe safety precautions. No shop project should be approached with a cavalier attitude, but the potential for mishaps is high when heat-treating steel.

[Dave Anderson NH]

As James stated, Lee Valley has ferrules available quite inexpensively and McMaster-Carr and MSC both sell O1 tool steel in small quantities. As for making a handles out of a pen blank, absolutely. The only caveat is what size (length and diameter) you want the handle to be. Most pen blanks are slightly on the small size in both diameter and length for marking knives unless you have small hands. I don't use pen blanks myself though it certainly would be convenient if they were slightly larger. The key thing is to shape the blade before you heat treat it. I did a post on do it yourself heat treating here a few months ago, so search the archives. Good luck !!

[Alan Turner]

Zahid,
Dave's earlier post/thread was what inspired me to make my own, which was before Dave decided to turn "pro." I made 2, and taught the making of them as well. The instructions in the earlier thread are excellent. I made one of 3/8" x 3/32, and one of 3/4 by 3/32. The larger one has a larger handle. Dave's handles are turned, but mine are not. On the larger I ripped a piece of ebony to exactly 3/32, and then used it as a spacer, with a cut-out of course, and surrounded it with padauk. It is a softened rectangular shape. File a notch in the blade, and use epoxy, leaving enought room around the blade for the epoxy. The smaller, which I use far more often, has a handle of birdseye maple, justa a scrap, and it is shaped somewhat like a chip carning knife handle. Were I to do it again, and I probably will, I would put a more severe point on the smaller one. I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet on the one already made.
Both of these guys are my go-to guys for marking.
I got my steel from MSC Direct. I think it was about $3 for an 18" length, but it might have been $4 or $5. This is a cheap date sort of project.
Alan

[Zahid Naqvi]

Alan, Dave,
Thanks for you advice. I will do a search in the archives for Dave's posting. I have read some posting on the web which suggest cut offs from brass pipe joints might be a good substitute for a ferrule, but if I am going to buy tool steel from someone I might as well get some ferrules as well. I was thinking about the softened square shape my self as I don't own a lathe yet.
Alan any chance you can post pictures of your marking knives.

Zahid

[Alan Turner]

I will be glad to, if I can remember.
Alan

[Pam Niedermayer]

LV has brass ferrules at very reasonable prices. Don't think they're a source for your tool steel though.

Pam

[Tim Sproul]

You also have the option of making a marking knife in the style of the Japanese...handle and cutting edge all being from a single blank of tool steel. I'm sure this would be easier if you have access to a metal cutting bandsaw....though for something that small it shouldn't be too difficult to simply file the annealed steel to shape before hardening.

[Alan Turner]

Zahid,
And here they are. Note the blade protectors. I had Dave send them to me as I am not familiar with where to acquire such items. :rolleyes:
The smaller knife should definitely have a much sharper point. A bit of a learning curve here.
Alan

[Pam Niedermayer]

Alan, on the smaller knife, do you find the handle style getting in your way when you use the longer bevel? Or, if you're left handed, when you use the shorter bevel?

Thanks,
Pam

[Alan Turner]

Pam
If the mark is to be with the knife held against a thick board, then it does get in the way, and I do not use it. I don't want to cant the handle out, becuase I will cut the thicker board, in the example given. I will then use the larger knife, which has a longer blade, or a Hock knife, which has no handle, but is not very stiff. The smaller knife, although small, is not delicate at all, and I can make quite a deep mark with it if need be. Both are quite sharp.
I just wish I had made the point/bevel much longer. I know I can grind it now to that shape, but I haven't bothered to do so yet. I could have easily filed it before I hardened it, but didn't.
Alan

[Dave Anderson NH]

How sharp a point angle you use is sometimes a matter of how you use the tool. While a really sharp point angle is great for getting into small area, it does have the disadvantage of being more flexible and more prone to chipping and/or breaking. It is also a bit harder to keep registered against the straightedge you are using for marking- it wants to angle off a bit and follow the grain. On the other hand, a blunter point angle has the advantage of registering more solidly against your straightedge and tracking better. The downside of the blunt point is the awkwardness in narrow or tight areas. To further conplicate things, the width and thickness of the blade also effect stiffness, the ease of sharpening the bevel, and the general utility in tight areas. On my design I made my choice as a compromise for general all around use, but other designs are definately better in some specialized uses. No one geometry can do it all well.

[Alan Turner]

Dave
Yup, have to agree. Boy I learn a lot here.
Alan

[Pam Niedermayer]

Dave, I wasn't questioning the angle, but rather the shape of the handle. It seems awkward to me to use a carving knife type handle, which is intended to be used with one hand in one direction, with a marking knife that has two bevels and is thus intended to be used in either direction.

Nevertheless, good point about marking knife sharpness and angles.

An aside, somewhere within the last couple of years I remember reading that a marking knife should be used with the bevel against the fence/ruler. This supposedly gets you to a more consistent relationship between fence and knife and resultant mark than you get with the bevel out. Made sense to me, but I always forget to try it. :)

Pam

[Dave Anderson NH]

My apologies. I forgot to answer your question in the post, I got sidetracked by demands from my real job. I would agree with you that the non-symmetrical shape of the handles would be awkward for using the "off side" bevel. With the exception of the Crown knives which are a left and right set, and have rectangular riveted handles, almost all of the other knives that I've seen which are designed as marking knives have symmetrical handles.

[Alan Turner]

The asymetrical handle shape has never been bothersome to me, but perhaps it is a different drummer to which I march. I notice it, but am not bothered by it.
Alan

[Roy Wall]

Went to woodcraft today to snoop around and looked at the marking knives. After observation, I noticed they had L & R hand models, but were all sold out of the double "edged" variety - obviously the most popular as you can "flip" them tight against any face L or R ........must be the way to go!


A simple thread - but a great learning experience for me!!

Thanks everyone!!!

[Zahid Naqvi]

Alan, thanks for the pictures. They are very close to what I had in mind. Dave your advice, as always, is greately appreciated.

Zahid

[Clay Craig]

As a step short of treating your own steel, what I did was to mount (with epoxy) a Ron Hock blade in a homemade handle. I set the blade's extension pretty short due to the flex, but haven't yet had any serious problems with it, even with the necessary angle for some marking.

Clay

[neil radcliffe]

Material for the blabe have you considered using an old hack saw blade for the knife, I know the material is flexable if you have it stuck too far out of the handle, however it is cheap and can be shapened quickley and replaced whenever you have to.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Aha, it was on Jeff Gorman's site I saw the marking knife held with the bevel against the fence. Also, this site has some great ideas for how to make a knife, see http://www.amgron.clara.net/markingout/markingindex.htm

Pam

[David Klug]

OK I give up. Will somebody please explain to me what advantage that a marking knife has over a utility knife?

DK

[Pam Niedermayer]

A good marking knife doesn't wobble and flex or get captured by the grain.

Pam

[Tom LaRussa]

As James stated, Lee Valley has ferrules available quite inexpensively and McMaster-Carr and MSC both sell O1 tool steel in small quantities.
Hi Dave,

I'd like your opinion, if you'd be so kind. :)

Have you ever tried using the harder steels like A2 or D2 (rather than O1) for knives, plane blades, and/or chisels? Is it really that much harder to sharpen them and, if so, is it worth the extra effort and cost?

TIA,

Augie

[Cecil Arnold]

At one point I ground knives and fell in love with D2. It works well, hardens to Rockwell 60-64 and can be drawn to 59(ideal for general knife useage). The only problem I had with it is that it is not a true stainless steel. One drop of sweat and you have discoloration and/or rust. You might be interested in 154CM which was developed for compressor veins in jet engines, or ATS 34, both of which are really great, truly stainless steels. The down side is that all three need to be tempered, drawn, and possably cryo treated in an outside shop. This will cost in the neighborhood of $10-20 and rapidly negates the monotary advantage of making your own marking knife.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Cecil pretty well nailed it about the heat treating. A2 is definately a more modern alloy and a more wear resistant steel. Unfortunately you can't do the heat treating yourself because of the temperature schedule and the specific requirements of ramping the heat up and down over fairly rigid time intervals. For a marking knife I don't think the amount of wear on the blade justifies the extra expense or is even necessary. Maybe some day if sales reach the point where I can justify doing 100 blades at a time I'll change to A2 and send it out to be heat treated.

As for the second question -"are they harder to sharpen". Some of the answer depends on what your final Rockwell hardness is- harder Rc equals longer to sharpen, but not really more difficult. I strongly believe that sharpening is a gateway skill to woodworking and if you don't pass thru the gate you'll always either produce second rate work or have to work twice as hard to get first rate work. It's not difficult to do and doesn't require a huge expenditure to get set up. In this modern world we have a tendency to throw money at problems to get instant results rather than take the time necessary to develop our skills. $400-700 sharpening systems and equipment are NOT necessary to get good results. The easiest way to get started is to pick a sharpening system: scary sharp, oil stones, or water stones and stay wit it until you get proficient. Leonard Lee's book on sharpening is a good place to start. It's akey volume for any woodworkers library. End Rant