Add End Grain to Ply Substrate.... ?

[John Thompson]

I'm building a 22" x 63" top for a computer desk-hutch. I have laminated two sheets of 1/2' ply together to form a sheet 22' x 60' x 15/16". I will then apply 5/16" re-sawn QSWO to the top to give me 1 1/4" thickness. But... I do not want to add bread-board ends as the style (Stickley) rules them out. I do not want to band the ends with long grain.

What I need is open grain ends with QSWO to hide the current ply layers now showing. So.. I need to add 1 1/2" of QSWO to each end of the 60" long ply laminate so the end grain shows.

So.. for those experienced WW who could use a little brain teaser.... how would you go about doing this?
__________________
SARGE

[Thomas S Stockton]

John,
The problem is that end grain does not glue well. What you need to use ia some sort of joinery which can be anything from a spline or biscuts to making the end grain piece t shaped and fitting it in a groove. You can then veneer over it.
My concern with your plan is using 5/16 thick veneeers. When I do sawn veneers I cut them at around 3/32 and end up with a thick 1/16 when done. The problem with going thicker is that the veneer starts acting like solid wood and trying to move while attached to an substrate that doesn't move. What usually happens is the joints between each veneer open up, which doesn't look good.
Tom

[Jason King]

I would recommend taking your router with a dovetail bit and cutting a dovetail groove along the end of your table top. I would then cut and glue a bunch of very short white oak pieces together so that they are as wide as the table top. I would then cut the dovetail "key" in these glued up boards, and slide the whole assembly into the dovetail groove that you cut in your tabletop. A little glue in the center should keep everything stable, and still allow for wood movement.

Hopefully I described this well enough without pictures to understand it.

[Jamie Buxton]

Cut the oak into a T-shaped cross section, and cut a dado in the end of the plywood for the base of the T to fit into. This will give you glue faces which are face-grain to face-grain, and glue lines which are in sheer. This is a strong glue joint. And that's good, because this approach is kinda asking for trouble, as you probably know. The oak is going to want to move cross-grain, and the plywood is not going to let it. Depending on how the humidity changes in your environment, there is some risk that the oak will develop what looks like end checks. However, the glue bond is at least going to hold everything together.

[Rod Sheridan]

(Stickley) .

So.. for those experienced WW who could use a little brain teaser.... how would you go about doing this?
__________________
SARGE

John, I know it won't help you, however Stickley and plywood don't go together in my opinion.

Having built a reasonable quantity and diversity of Stickley copies, or inspired furniture, I use solid wood everywhere it's required.

My suggestion is to make the top out of solid wood.

Having said that, you may have some construction constraints that require ply (Stability).

I also feel that your veneer is too thick, and will eventually cause you problems due to movement.

Regards, Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

How about trimming the plywood substrate so the veneer top is 1 1/2" proud of the substrate? Then you can rip 1x2 QSO endgrain planks and glue them to the underside of the veneer. This will provide better holding strength than glue on the endgrain. Your 'seam' would be on the edge, though instead of the top; not sure how you feel about that.

If you really want to glue an endgrain band to the edge, I'd use biscuits or dowels.

[Jason Beam]

I'll kinda echo Rob's concerns ... laminating only one side even with the thinnest of veneers will risk warping - and considerably more risk as you go thicker.

I'd also opt for building out of solid stuff ... there's just no good way to accurately simulate a solid panel - which is what you're after. The movement issues just keep compounding. If you wanna stick with ply, I think you have to lose the end-grain desire and just wrap it with long grain sticks instead. Not the answers you were after, but I don't believe I'd want to try to overcome all the challenges involved to get it done.


Edit: I would also argue that you can pull off breadboard ends in the Stickley style. I've got a Stickley book that has a few end tables with through-mortises showing off the joinery and everything. It's very nearly Greene & Greene, but not quite.

[John Thompson]

Thanks guys for the speedy responses. I threw this out as a brain teaser (as stated) basically to see if there had been any experience with doing anything of this nature. You guys jumped on this like flys on stink and I am impressed. :)

Actually I did this yesterday and thought it might help some of the newbie's if they en-counter it and too see if there methods other than what I used? After 37 years it was my first en-counter of adding the end grain as I have always used solid wood and am new to using veneer and substrate.

I rabbetted 1" into the ply.. then rabbeted (half lap in some circles) 1" off of 2 1/2" pieces of QS as some touched on. They were glued to the bottom of the ply substrate. So... even though already done... I did want to see if there was a better way as I may have to use the method again.

But.. but.. but... I am very glad I ask the question as Thomas immediately alerted me to something I did not think through as I am not accustomed to veneer. Then others added the same concern about the veneer being too thick. I questioned that myself but came to the conclussion that there was so much glue surface it would probably prohibit the 5/16" from moving. You guys with experience with veneer have put my thoughts on that to rest as it appears that theory may not be valid.

The bad news is I have already re-sawn to 5/16" with a 1/4" the intended out-come after planing. The good news is I can get away with a 1" minimum in this case and can RE re-saw the 5/16" into two 1/8". Then plane it down to 1/16" after adding the veneer. That will give me more veneer for the rear dust shield in the hutch that will be seen and save some more precious wood and money.

So... thanks to all that raised concern over the thickness I intended.. Even an old dog can learn something new and I am glad I did before the fact.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Chris Padilla]

I agree with Thomas...you are asking for issues later down the road with having such a thick veneer glued to plywood. You will have stability issues and the hardwood may eventually warp the plywood or pull it into a C-shape unless restricted by the supporting/surrounding structure.

Check this out: in my Tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396) project, I veneered a 1/16" thick sheet of bookmatched walnut to an MDF substrate made up of two piece of 5/8" MDF that had been previously laminated. I only veneered one side. The next day, the walnut had yanked on the MDF pulling the middle up about an 1/8" and this was on a 50" x 17" sized plank. I was quite surprised.

Now I think the plywood might be stronger due to the cross-grain plys but you are putting on even thicker hardwood and it is really going to yank on your unbalanced structure. You can mitigate this by edge-banding or perhaps the support sturcture of your project but you will still have lottsa stress between the hardwood and the unmoving, unyielding plywood. You can also help mitigate this by putting hardwood on the BOTTOM of your plywood substrate.

Think about it...plywood is made the way it is for a reason. There is a reason the outer hardwood veneers are so thin. One is for cost and the other is for stability of the plywood. Also note that plywood is always balanced from the core on out such that if you split the plywood dead center, the resulting piece look preciesly the same.

[John Thompson]

John, I know it won't help you, however Stickley and plywood don't go together in my opinion.

Having built a reasonable quantity and diversity of Stickley copies, or inspired furniture, I use solid wood everywhere it's required.

My suggestion is to make the top out of solid wood.

Having said that, you may have some construction constraints that require ply (Stability).

I also feel that your veneer is too thick, and will eventually cause you problems due to movement.

Regards, Rod.

In this case it is not really a Stickley reproduction.. merely a computer desk-hutch done in a Stickley style. It is also hard to imagine the word Stickley which relates to a hundred years ago used in the same sentence as computer which relates to now. But.. the desk is a modified Stickley hunt-board. No middle drawers as feet and legs and a key-board have to be utilized for a computer. And the cabinets on both sides have to be used for CPU on one side and storage of manuals and back-up tapes.. drives.. etc. on the other which will require drawers behind the outter doors.

The hutch is a modified Liberty & Co. design from English designers working for them during the A & C period. It also has to be modified to accept speakers.. DVD's.. etc.. etc. So... this is only a desk-hutch in the Stickley style which doesn't conform to computer.

BTW... this is my first attempt at veneer as I have always worked with solid wood. I have around 100 board ft. so far of QSWO which relates to about $400 not including hardware hinges.. key-board slides.. etc. etc. Having been laid off a year and a half ago and attempting to semi-retire as I don't recieve anything from retirement until Oct. of this year... yes..... one does have to live on a budget that forces me to re-think the strict use of solid wood as I have always used. It's just the way is is unforturnatley.

Regards...

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

Having read several other responese (some typed while I was typing) on the thickness issue.. that should be resolved on top as I am modifying to use 1/16" on top. That will give me 1" total thicknes which is minimum. I will assess that when done and eyeball to determine if 1" is enough to maintain proportion.

If not.. I can simply add a 1/4" sheet of laminated ply to the bottom which isn't really 1/4". By RE re-sawing the 5/16" into two 1/8" pieces of QSWO.. I already have veneer to cover the bottom. So... good to go.

Now... my question would be.... by not covering the bottom of the ply with veneer, is that going to be a deterrent in your opinions. I originally was simply going to lay 3 coats of un-cut poly on the bottom no-show side to seal.. So.. is the bottom covered with veneer that critical.

I probably will not go back and make the top solid wood as yes.. this is a challenge indeed. But... if it fails which some seem to think it might.. the good news is this piece is built in 3 take-down pieces. The base desk.. the top and the hutch. This thing weighs a ton already with over 100 bd. ft. in it and has to be moved up-stairs so I intentionally make it a three stage piece that can be broken down easily.

So.. if that top does fail.. I can remove the hutch and top in 5 minutes and replace the top with solid wood. It's a simple two day job with glue dry times. But.. I am more curious now than ever as to will this work or not for the long run.

Sarge..

[Chris Padilla]

Now... my question would be.... by not covering the bottom of the ply with veneer, is that going to be a deterrent in your opinions. I originally was simply going to lay 3 coats of un-cut poly on the bottom no-show side to seal.. So.. is the bottom covered with veneer that critical.
Sarge..

I think you know my opinion, Sarge! :) When I saw what a measly 1/16" piece of walnut did, I was a believer!

BTW, I did eventually veneer the other side of that panel but it was after I edge-banded it with 1/2" walnut hardwood. Further, one could easily push the MDF/walnut veneer panel flat again so I wasn't worried because I was edge-banding it thus locking it back flat again.

Your hutch is going to be wider than my 17" piece so that means even more movement across the grain. Veneer that bottom!! :)

[Chris Padilla]

One other question, what glue are you going to use to veneer the top (and maybe bottom) with?

I would NOT use good old PVA (yellow) due to glue creep and flexibility. You want something that dries very hard like the plastic resins or urea or veneer glue like veneersupplies.com sells. I am using their Better Bonds Cold Press Veneer Glue (http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=86_40&products_id=1319) (dark tinted for walnut) and so far so good with it. It dries very hard.

How do you plan to clamp this sucker?

[John Thompson]

One other question, what glue are you going to use to veneer the top (and maybe bottom) with?

I would NOT use good old PVA (yellow) due to glue creep and flexibility. You want something that dries very hard like the plastic resins or urea or veneer glue like veneersupplies.com sells. I am using their Better Bonds Cold Press Veneer Glue (http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=86_40&products_id=1319) (dark tinted for walnut) and so far so good with it. It dries very hard.

How do you plan to clamp this sucker?

I'm using cold press veneer glue I got at Highland. Clamping will be done with 6' long 2 x 4's as cauls while the top is laid flat on a sheet of 3/4" MDF on one of my assembly tables. I ripped the edge off one side of the 2 x's and tied three together with bolts and nuts that can be removed so I can use them elsewhere. Five of those altogether.Those cauls will run lenghtwise on the 63". Then I will come back and caul across the width of 22" to try to give even distribution on the entire 22' x 63". I don't have any vacuum presses... etc.

But... I still question the ply moving. I realize your MDF did but how thick was it. These two 1/2" ply sheets are 15/16" total and glued together. Then I countersunk holes on the bottom and dropped a total of 27 sheet metal screws to further re-inforce. Three rows of 9 with one on each side and one down the middle.

If you can flex it.. you are a better man than me. I went down to the shop and laid the 1" thick ply on four corner supports. I had my son stand in the middle one end and I stood on the other. Remember it is only 22" wide. It had no flex at all I could notice. If so.. it was minute. Now.. if I add another 1/4" sheet to the bottom because of going to 1/16".. I just added another 4 plys of cross laminated stock. I can't imagine that moving without extreme pressure.

So.. my concern is not the ply moving the veneer but the veneer splitting and causing gaps as I can see no way 1 1/4" of laminated ply attached with glue and screws could move. Maybe someone knows something I don't but I would like to know the theory of how it could?

Thanks for the tips as I am glad the veneer guys intervened before I laid it down. BTW.. the hutch will be made of solid wood as the desk base. But.. I will add veneered 1/4" " ply to the back as you can see it. I will veneer both sides in that case for sure and will probably do both on the top even though I really have my doubts in this case about that scenario;

Regards...

Sarge..

[Jason Beam]

Sarge,

Just a note of my experience...

Everytime I thought I could get away with NOT laminating both sides of a panel, I was proven wrong. I had two layers of 3/4" MDF glued together. Stuck formica on one side and not the other. When the weather changed, my panel became a canoe!! That's an inch and a half SOLID material and a little measely thin coat of formica.

It's not just the veneer pulling on the panel, it's also the uneven moisture transfer. One side will give it up faster than the other, meaning it'll shrink and only help the cupping.

I've only been doin this a few years, but I have already learned the hard lesson and will always treat both faces the same. It's almost always cheap insurance. :)

[Chris Padilla]

But... I still question the ply moving. I realize your MDF did but how thick was it. These two 1/2" ply sheets are 15/16" total and glued together. Then I countersunk holes on the bottom and dropped a total of 27 sheet metal screws to further re-inforce. Three rows of 9 with one on each side and one down the middle.

If you can flex it.. you are a better man than me. I went down to the shop and laid the 1" thick ply on four corner supports. I had my son stand in the middle one end and I stood on the other. Remember it is only 22" wide. It had no flex at all I could notice. If so.. it was minute. Now.. if I add another 1/4" sheet to the bottom because of going to 1/16".. I just added another 4 plys of cross laminated stock. I can't imagine that moving without extreme pressure.

So.. my concern is not the ply moving the veneer but the veneer splitting and causing gaps as I can see no way 1 1/4" of laminated ply attached with glue and screws could move. Maybe someone knows something I don't but I would like to know the theory of how it could?

Thanks for the tips as I am glad the veneer guys intervened before I laid it down. BTW.. the hutch will be made of solid wood as the desk base. But.. I will add veneered 1/4" " ply to the back as you can see it. I will veneer both sides in that case for sure and will probably do both on the top even though I really have my doubts in this case about that scenario;

Regards...

Sarge..

My MDF was two 5/8" thick pieces laminated together so 1 1/4" of MDF. Certainly, MDF sags more than plywood of similar size.

22" wide by how long? My MDF sandwich was 17" x 50".

I can only relate my experiences to you, Sarge, so good luck to you. :)

[John Thompson]

Chris.... and Jason...

You teacher types are mean.. mean.. mean.... and should be ashamed of yourselves for scolding an old man. Everyone says the same thing about this issue. A gentleman from another planet directed me to the Joe Woodworker site on veneer and their article chastised me there also. There just ain't no respect for an on old man these days it appears. :D

OK.. OK.. I am convinced at this point that laminated ply can move. I suppose some things in life I can chalk up to "one of life's mysteries". Like buying 4 bags of groceries and taking out 7 bags of trash. I accept that is just happens. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

I have decided to add another 1/4 sheet of ply and put 1/16" on each side. BTW.. my current sheet of ply is really 19'. I will spline in a 1 1/2" wide x 1 1/4" thick edge band of real-deal QS on the edges of the ply build-up which was in the original plan... To me that would take a John Deere tractor to move but... this moisture thing in ply most be a pretty powerful force (probably of alien origin..?) and I ain't foolin' with the ole "Lone Ranger"... especially if he's from another unknown planet. :)

So... thanks for taking the time to chew my b*tt on this issue to avoid a potential problem down the road. As I said.. I'm just a beginner with this veneer thing but.... I have a feeling that will change in the near future as I can spend 6-8 hours a day in my shop forturnately.. and it is likely to come to the surface again.... soon.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Jason Beam]

Glad you saw the light, Sarge! With a smile, too! :) :)

Now hopefully your panel stays good'n flat for a long long time to come! I am still a little teensy bit concerned about those endgrain bits ya stuck to the end of yer panel, but I guess we'll have to see, huh? :) I'll stay optimistic on that one :)

[John Thompson]

Glad you saw the light, Sarge! With a smile, too! :) :)

Now hopefully your panel stays good'n flat for a long long time to come! I am still a little teensy bit concerned about those endgrain bits ya stuck to the end of yer panel, but I guess we'll have to see, huh? :) I'll stay optimistic on that one :)

You know.. for the amount of time this is taking to get this all right.. I probably should have bit the bullet and gotten another $120 worth of QSWO and been done with the top. I need to move on to the hutch as I would like to finish this by mid April at least. Doing a solid wood glue up would have taken about two days with glue time max.

I will sleep on with that thought and make a decision tomorrow.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Jason Beam]

Well if nothin' else, you got a learning experience, right? :)

Way I see it, if I ain't learnt nothin' all dang day, I dun wasted a whole day. Learnin's my favorite pastime :)

The "figurin' it as i go" process always seems to take much more time than goin with "tried 'n true" but in reality, the lessons learned along the way are almost always time well spent - if ya have it. If ya don't have it, it's just an exercise in frustration and not much learnin' gets done. That would summarize my first try at laminating a panel on just one side (my 2nd, too... lol) :)

It sounds (and looks) like yer gonna have one nice lookin' desk when you get done, either way. Your attention to detail makes me wanna get out there and finish my coffee table :D

[Chris Padilla]

Be sure to post some pics!!! :D :D

[John Thompson]

Well if nothin' else, you got a learning experience, right? :)

Way I see it, if I ain't learnt nothin' all dang day, I dun wasted a whole day. Learnin's my favorite pastime :)

The "figurin' it as i go" process always seems to take much more time than goin with "tried 'n true" but in reality, the lessons learned along the way are almost always time well spent - if ya have it. If ya don't have it, it's just an exercise in frustration and not much learnin' gets done. That would summarize my first try at laminating a panel on just one side (my 2nd, too... lol) :)

It sounds (and looks) like yer gonna have one nice lookin' desk when you get done, either way. Your attention to detail makes me wanna get out there and finish my coffee table :D

If nothing else Chris.. I got a new 19" wide assembly table which I need on occasion and I may rip it down to 16" to use for a veneer clamp table for smaller work. I have 5 (3 portable fold ups) already but nothing narrower than 24" with most 30"-48". I can think of several uses for that matter.

I called Suwanee Lumber (down the street from me) and the boy's down the hill at their saw-mill are quarter sawing 30 more bd. ft. as we speak. I hate to put another $120 in it but.. a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. The veneer thing originated from the fact I grossly mis-calculated what I would oriiginally need as my wife wanted a computer desk. I got 80 bd. ft. which would have been about right.

But... after the fact... "I want a hutch over-head on it also.. did I not mention that"? I have already been back for 30 BF and now another 30. This thing will end up with around 140 BF and weighs a ton. I'm making it 3 stage to final assemble when I get it uo-stairs.

And yep.. I learned something about veneering. And when I am wrong.. I am simply wrong and will just say "I am wrong". It's called integrity and was "switched" into me at an early age before my dad died when I was 13. I am proud he made the word integrity clear to me before his passing as I see many that attempt to sweep their mistakes under the rug in lieu of just admitting they made one.

Gotta go.. I should have the new top prepped from rough.. glued and off the clamp racks by mid-night. Then I can by-pass the obstacle I attempted to create.

Regards...

Sarge..