Jointer/Planer, Planer Questions

[Ed Calkins]

I know I am trying everyone's patience but I am still struggling with jointer decision issues (or lack of decision). While trying to decide between a Griz 10" or 12" jointer, I am again reviewing the European combo units -- probably most specifically the Hammer A3-31 which has a promo price now that is not too bad. Prior to this recent diversion, I had decided on a unique jointer as I already have a planer. Unfortunately my experience with the planer has been extremely limited, I have used it for two easy jobs (a few pieces of oak, and a few pieces of pine) since buying it two years ago. My wood working hobby is about to be kicked up a notch or two which is why I am setting up a shop now. My planer is a Makita 2012NB (I think you guys call it a lunch box planer). I have always had good luck with Makita and therefore purchased their planer. I plan to work mainly in hardwoods and have a new bandsaw for resawing etc. Finally, my question: Are the combo planers (e.g. Hammer A3-31) significantly better planers than my Makita 2012NB? Would the work product (assuming one did all the correct user actions) be better on the combo planer? Any users of the Makita 2012NB that can comment on the reliability when the usage is stepped up? I will either buy a unique planer and use the Makita until someday possibly repacing it with another jointer, or, get a combo unit and sell the Makita. thks in advace for your comments/advice. Ed

[Rod Sheridan]

Well, that's an interesting question.

I own a Hammer A3-31 and am extremely pleased with its performance.

I have never owned a portable planer, my previous one was a General 14" model.

My brother has a portable planer which i've used and I have the following comments

- the Hammer will plane material at a much greater speed while producing a snipe free product for the following reasons;

A) It has a high feed rate

B) It's capable of taking a much deeper cut

The longevity of the Hammer will be far greater than a portable planer, which can be a good thing.

The Hammer also functions as a 12 inch jointer, something that is fantastic as I have no room for a conventional 12 inch jointer.

Regards, Rod.

[Matt Benton]

I would agree with everthing Rod said, and add that his response was fairly reserved...

Comparing a Hammer J/P to a lunchbox planer, particularly those other than the Dewalt 735, is comparing apples and oranges.

I have the Jet 12" J/P, and I like it much better than the 735. The Hammer would be even better. More power, more stable, etc.

If you can afford the Hammer, I would definitely get that...

[Chris Padilla]

Having a jointer and planer of equal size can be very beneficial although widish planers are cheap whereas widish jointers are very expensive.

If you plan to process and use a lot of rough lumber, you will almost have to have a widish jointer unless you go the galoot/handtool route.

[Mats Bengtsson]

I know I am trying everyone's patience but I am still struggling with jointer decision issues (or lack of decision). While trying to decide between a Griz 10" or 12" jointer, I am again reviewing the European combo units -- probably most specifically the Hammer A3-31 which has a promo price now that is not too bad. Prior to this recent diversion, I had decided on a unique jointer as I already have a planer. Unfortunately my experience with the planer has been extremely limited, I have used it for two easy jobs (a few pieces of oak, and a few pieces of pine) since buying it two years ago. My wood working hobby is about to be kicked up a notch or two which is why I am setting up a shop now. My planer is a Makita 2012NB (I think you guys call it a lunch box planer). I have always had good luck with Makita and therefore purchased their planer. I plan to work mainly in hardwoods and have a new bandsaw for resawing etc. Finally, my question: Are the combo planers (e.g. Hammer A3-31) significantly better planers than my Makita 2012NB? Would the work product (assuming one did all the correct user actions) be better on the combo planer? Any users of the Makita 2012NB that can comment on the reliability when the usage is stepped up? I will either buy a unique planer and use the Makita until someday possibly repacing it with another jointer, or, get a combo unit and sell the Makita. thks in advace for your comments/advice. Ed

I recently bought a Hammer A3-31. It is very stable, but also take a very small footprint for giving both jointer and planer function. I bought the wheels with it, and thus when not using it can easily place it against the wall, and when needed bring it forward. Since you are talking hardwood, you need a fairly powerful jointer. The power and stability from the the pure size/weight of the feed boards of the Hammer can not be compared to the Makita. the drawback is that moving from planer to jointer means you have to change the planer setting.

--- Mats ---

[Todd Solomon]

These guys summed it up pretty well- the Hammer's advantages over a lunchbox are:

*Much more heavy duty, should last decades

*Much smaller footprint- freeing up space.

*Less snipe

*The faster feed rate of euro combo machines is more efficient, but I'm not sure this is an advantage. The lunch boxes' slower feed rate is occasionally better for reduced tearout in figured woods. A slower feed rate is about the only thing that I wish the euro combos had. This is true of the Mini Maxes, Hammers and Felders. The only one I've seen that has an adjustable feed rate down to a crawl is the Felder AD951, but that's a $10K+ machine.

One biggie that I can add is the high-quality, quick-change knives, that are automatically set to the right height without jigs or adjustments- Just change them or shift them over, and you're ready to go.

[Chris Padilla]

Good points, Todd. The TERSA knives are stupid simple to change...and double-sided to boot!

[Ed Calkins]

Good points, Todd. The TERSA knives are stupid simple to change...and double-sided to boot!

The A3-31 that I was looking at doesn't have the TERSA heads but it has their proprietary quick change heads that are almost as easy to change, also double sided and much less expensive (I've been told). Actually my Makita planer has quick change knives also -- I bought an extra set with the planer but haven't had to change them yet (after planing 4 or 5 boards :) )
Thanks to all for the good points. Sounds like the A3-31 is a much more robust planer than the Makita. I am also hearing now that the A3-31 might be sold out (in my area at least) and there might be a 2 to 3 month wait for another container to arrive --- another consideration. While space is always an issue, I can survive with separate jointer and planer footprints if neccessary. Thanks again, Ed

[Todd Solomon]

The A3-31 that I was looking at doesn't have the TERSA heads but it has their proprietary quick change heads that are almost as easy to change, also double sided and much less expensive (I've been told). Actually my Makita planer has quick change knives also -- I bought an extra set with the planer but haven't had to change them yet (after planing 4 or 5 boards :) )
Thanks to all for the good points. Sounds like the A3-31 is a much more robust planer than the Makita. I am also hearing now that the A3-31 might be sold out (in my area at least) and there might be a 2 to 3 month wait for another container to arrive --- another consideration. While space is always an issue, I can survive with separate jointer and planer footprints if neccessary. Thanks again, Ed

The Felder/Hammer quick-change knives are a little more laborious than Tersa knives, but not much. They are very quick and easy as well. Good luck with your decision!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Get the Hammer~!!
It's a no brainer

[Ed Calkins]

Just to follow up and being I got great comments and shared knowledge, I am happy to say I ordered a Hammer A3-31 :). The price was right due to their spring sale and I look forward to an early May delivery or pick up. I'll share the experience when I set it up. I guess I will now sell my Makita 2012NB, it is still as new having seen little shavings or sawdust. Thks again, Ed

[Jeff Monson]

Good choice Ed, I just took delivery of a a3-31 and couldnt be happier with my purchase, coming from a 6" jointer and a dw735 planer there is no comparision, its a top quality machine and very heavy!! Cuts are very nice and snipe free, the euro blade guard takes a little getting used to but I think it will be a step up from the porkchop guard on my last jointer.

[Wade Lippman]

Since you have already done it, my comments are pretty useless, but still...

Spending that kind of money for 55" long jointer seems peculiar to me; unless you never work with long pieces. My 8" is 76" long and it often seems too short.

For the same price you can get a 15" planer and 8" jointer with spiral heads. Only reason I can think of to buy a combination machine is that you really really need a 12" wide jointer (which I never have) or you are really really short on space, which you didn't mention as a consideration.

[Ed Calkins]

Since you have already done it, my comments are pretty useless, but still...

Spending that kind of money for 55" long jointer seems peculiar to me; unless you never work with long pieces. My 8" is 76" long and it often seems too short.

For the same price you can get a 15" planer and 8" jointer with spiral heads. Only reason I can think of to buy a combination machine is that you really really need a 12" wide jointer (which I never have) or you are really really short on space, which you didn't mention as a consideration.
Geez Wade, not sure if you are trying to fan the buyer's remorse flames or are really interested in why I made the decision -- I will assume the later. I can't really address the details in this response but I can hit a few highlights. I did a lot of research including talking to some owners etc. Number one reason for the decision is I have yet to find an owner of one of these high quality combos that doesn't like/love it. And many come from individual jointer planers even of similar sizes. Having a Felder distribution/service/parts facility within two hour of my home also helped. I entered the search not even considering combo anythings because in my mind combo meant compromise -- not the case with these machines, their quality and work results compare favorably with any of the individual Taiwan units typically purchased by us hobby users. I was also concerned about the table length but talking to owners found it not to be a problem and if it is Felder has several well designed extensions, even the shortest (16") added to each end of the jointer puts it about 87". My limited jointer usage over the past 5 years or so (Delta DJ-20) has always been with lengths of less than 3 feet -- might not always be the case but I don't expect to joint 12 foot boards. While I could make room for separate machines, I could always use more space. My shop is in the corner of a 40x60 foot building and if I expand too much I will have to sell one of my boats or something. Anyway, as in everything, it is different strokes for different folks, I am very comfortable with this decision. To add the final point, having looked for used machines for about 6 months I know that I could always resell the A3-31 for close to what I paid for it and that is not the case on the Taiwan machines. Hopefully your question was sincere and was answered, Ed :)

[Lloyd James]

I have been thinking about buying my 1st joiner. I have read many opinions on several forum sites. I also talk with a cabinet maker that has about 20 years experience. He says that a the joiner table length is an important part of joiner design. If a board is bowled then part of the board will be off the infeed end when the blades cut, and therefore not remove material as effectively. You may have to make many passes with a shorter
table.

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

Has anyone done a head-to-head comparison between the Hammer and the Jet JJP-12? Also, does anybody know pricing on the Hammer machine?

[Ed Calkins]

Has anyone done a head-to-head comparison between the Hammer and the Jet JJP-12? Also, does anybody know pricing on the Hammer machine?

The Hammer A3-31 lists for about $3900. and the spring sale price was just under $3100. (not sure if that is still on) -- plus whatever else you can negotiate. Ed

[Jeffrey Makiel]

A couple of years ago, I was quoted $3,600 for the Hammer at a Woodworking show. However, this quote is old now. Last month, I was quoted $1,800 for the Jet JJP-12 by a local retailer in NJ.

-Jeff :)

[paul dyar]

I moved up from 6" jointer to 8" more for the length of the bed than the width. I now work with rough lumber, most of witch is 8 to 9' long, and the 6" jointer was like trying to rip long boards on a table saw without an outfeed table.
paul

[Charlie Plesums]

I belong to the MiniMax religion, so look down my nose at Hammer (don't write me letters, please), but I expect the Hammer would be FAR better than the lunchbox planer and separate jointer. It is the difference between hobby tools and professional tools. In cars, both carry a couple people at 70 mph, but there is sure a difference that is hard to describe between a cheap one and a fine one.

[Roger Jensen]

Not looking to start a product war, but I'm close to getting the Hammer. I have read the review in FWW and the Minimax was a slight favorite. What are the big one or two things that swung you to Minimax?

With the spring sale on Hammer the price difference is significant - $1200 more for the Minimax.

Roger

[Todd Solomon]

I would say that the Tersa head gives the Mini Max a slight edge, along with the longer tables. However, the Felder/Hammer quick-change knives on the Hammer are a close 2nd. A friend of mine changed them in front of me, they work quite well. I have a Tersa on my Felder, but more Felder owners choose the Felder head. I'd say you're splitting hairs between the two cutterheads.

The thing that makes the Hammer such a good value is the incredible price. All of the Euro machines have gone up in price year after year, the Hammer 12" is the last great bargain in Euro jointer planers. If you're going to pull the trigger on the Hammer, do it before the sale expires. The european companies usually do not discount nearly as deep as they do during their sales.

[Charlie Plesums]

I have a high-end 5 function combo (8+ foot sliding table saw with scoring, tilting shaper, 16 inch jointer, 16 inch planer, and mortiser, with digital read-out on most functions. At the time I bought it, the comparable Felder was about 30% more expensive, and the Knapp from Laguna was FAR more expensive than that. Some of the low end combos are pretty fragile... someone visited my shop and when I leaned against my machine they paniced, since leaning against theirs would knock it out of alignment (they later bought one like mine).

I have not heard bad things about the Hammer line... it was not the one that the owner claimed would be knocked out of alignment by leaning against it. But I put MiniMax in the Felder class... sort of like the comparison between a high end Chevy and a Buick from the same manufacturer.

[Ed Calkins]

Just an added comment -- and I admit a significant reason I went for the Hammer was the current price spread re. the MM FS-30. I determined that either was the correct choice for me based mainly on current user feedback and a gut feeling that both of these companies were ones I would want to do business with and support me for the next 10 to 20 years that I would use the product. The first I considered was the FS-30 as I just got my MM16 bandsaw and I love it -- oh yeah, the one comment I promised: the concencus was that the tersa head system was probalbly slightly better and easier to change than the felder system (not much difference), work product was very similar, BUT, the felder replacement heads are much cheaper and simpler in design. As an aside, I worked for IBM for 30 years and in my early days the equipment I repaired and helped design was more mechanical than electronic (times have changed), Felder in many ways reminds me of the old IBM --structured, set in their ways, formal -- never a case of ready, fire, aim like you see from some of the lower cost suppliers. However, you can be sure the products meet expectations and are properly tested with utmost quality.
Ed

[Scot Ferraro]

The Hammer is a great machine and the price is as low as I have seen in awhile right now. I have had mine for just over a year and could not be happier. The knives are very quick to change. I ordered a digital readout for the planer height and being able to get repeatable results without resorting to calipers is a huge win for me. The length of the beds has been a non-issue. If you ever wanted longer beds Hammer sells aluminum tables that bolt on each end that extend the bed length by another two feet. Personally I use some of the outfeed stands that Home Depot carries and they work well (I am in the process of making a new workbench and milling 8/4 10 inch wide maple has not been a problem.

Good luck with your decision -- I think that you would be happy with either a Hammer or a Minimax.

Scot

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have a high-end 5 function combo (8+ foot sliding table saw with scoring, tilting shaper, 16 inch jointer, 16 inch planer, and mortiser, with digital read-out on most functions. At the time I bought it, the comparable Felder was about 30% more expensive, and the Knapp from Laguna was FAR more expensive than that. Some of the low end combos are pretty fragile... someone visited my shop and when I leaned against my machine they paniced, since leaning against theirs would knock it out of alignment (they later bought one like mine).

I have not heard bad things about the Hammer line... it was not the one that the owner claimed would be knocked out of alignment by leaning against it. But I put MiniMax in the Felder class... sort of like the comparison between a high end Chevy and a Buick from the same manufacturer.

From the Felder perspective, I own a nearly identical high end 5 function combo to Charlies, a Felder CF 741, and I agree with what he has to say on the comparisons. I got the pleasure of looking over a really nice shop of a fellow Creeker last weekend, that is full of high end Minimax equipment. It was good to compare the two, face to face. Felder is a bit more pricey, and there are a few minor differences. The appearance of the Felder is a bit more streamlined, there has been a recent redesign, and the electronics are a bit different. There really is no functional difference, both work flawlessly.

The Felder has softstart, and phenominal braking. A 6# shaper cutter will stop in about 4 seconds when the off button is pushed. A 12" saw blade stops in about 3 seconds. As far as I know, Minimax does not do this, yet... Minimax has a much simpler dado design then Felder. Any dado will fit a Minimax. Felders design is so because of the braking. Tersa is available for both j/p. The Felder j/p table swings up as one unit, the Minimax is two.

All in all, the two companies produce top notch tools, and I agree that it really comes down to the small details to pick your machine at this level. When I bought my machine last fall, Knapp was quite a bit cheaper, Minimax was within 15% on price and Format was more.

I've always thought that it looked like Hammer gets to use the old reliable Felder tech, but not the new shiney gadgets that can add a premium to the price, hence very solid bang for the buck. I think Minimax does the same, but rather than having a seperate brand name, they just give it a different number.

[Jim Flynn]

Go ahead with the Hammer you have on order. You will enjoy it's robustness compared to the lunchbox planer and the shorter jointer tables on the combos are easy to work around.

I have a MiniMax CU300 Smart that I've had since 2002 and it is comparable to the Hammer or Felder stuff. Differences are nuances in my opinion.

Having said that though you will find that the shorter jointer table does make you modify your work methods. My work sequence is to crosscut the rough lumber into the rough lengths that my project calls for then face joint, edge joint, plane, cut to length. I will follow this for cross cut materials up to about 4-6 feet in length depending on the quality of the raw edge.

For longer rough lumber or severely bowed lumber it requires an extra step. If the board is bowed and the desired finished length is less than 5 1/2 feet I will straightline rip it on my slider to get a reference edge after I have face jointed and before I edge joint. If it's finished length is greater than 5 1/2 feet than I'll establish the straightedge after face jointing with my festool saw.

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

The Hammer A3-31 lists for about $3900. and the spring sale price was just under $3100. (not sure if that is still on) -- plus whatever else you can negotiate. Ed
Today I was quoted $3260 including shipping.

[Roger Jensen]

The spring sale was $3095, which technically ended last week. However, I think they have been "unofficially" extending the spring sale. Depending on where you live, $160 for shipping sounds about right.

[Ted Calver]

Rich from Felder told me today the sale will be good to the end of April...I'm very tempted

[Charlie Plesums]

Nice review, Steve.


From the Felder perspective, I own a nearly identical high end 5 function combo to Charlies, a Felder CF 741,...

The CF 741 was the competing Felder. Felder sells with lots of options, and I tried to configure as close as I could (although as my first combo, I had to rely on the salesman's help). At that time the MiniMax CU410 Elite (now part of the TecnoMax line) came with all options standard.


...The Felder has softstart, and phenominal braking. A 6# shaper cutter will stop in about 4 seconds when the off button is pushed. A 12" saw blade stops in about 3 seconds. As far as I know, Minimax does not do this, yet... ..

I would have loved the braking, but it does require modified (or European style) 3-hole saw blades, so that the arbor nut doesn't unscrew when the brakes are applied. That isn't the end of the world, but it does mean you can't pick up a bargain blade from the local store.


...The Felder j/p table swings up as one unit, the Minimax is two. ....


Depends on the model. My 16 inch jointer table swings up as a single unit. It is so big that I was worried about my wife being able to do it, but no problem with the BIG springs to counterbalance. The biggest advantage of being able to raise it as a single unit, is that I can leave my jointer fence on while I open it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Charlie, I did not know that Minimax had any one piece table models, good to know. You are 100% right on Felders options, they added almost 25% to the total cost of my machine. Thing is, the "options" are really nessecities. It's more of an ala carte approach to ordering a machine I guess. Felders three hole blades have a 30mm arbor hole, and two pin holes. I ordered a blade from Forrest, and they had it in stock, but you certainly can't find one at the borg.

Irronically, both companies seem to be using the exact same power feeder stand, although Minimax's Maggi and Felders line, made by someone else I think, are different power units.

Have a good day,