Sorby chisel edge retention

[Richard Dooling]

I have a couple of Sorby firmer chisels that don't seem to hold an edge for very long. I can't really quantify this with any hard evidence but it just seems that they dull faster than some others.

I have read here that some others have issues with Sorby quality.

I have not reshaped the edges – only honed them and lapped the backs.
Is it possible or likely that I would get better results if I ground the edges back some? In other words, might the temper be different at the edge than a little back off the edge?

Thanks

[David Keller NC]

Richard - I've a (modern) 2" Sorby bench chisel - same issue, it's too soft and the edge rolls in hard wood. I've ground the edge (perhaps 1/16"), but that doesn't seem to help. Oddly enough, I've a corner chisel of the same make and same steel (A2) that keeps its edge well. If you purchased them new, I'd consider taking them back.

[Terry Beadle]

The cutting angle of the edge is critical to edge retention. This angle varies with what material you are cutting. Specifically to the exact board you are cutting. If you have a magnifing glass ( 10 X or better ), check to see if the edge is dull or just pushed over. If pushed over, you just need to keep increasing the micro bevel angle until it doesn't. If it's dull ( most unlikely with the quality of English steel ), then still try a higher angle on the micro bevel and retest. If still doesn't keep the edge, contact the supplier.

Also, on new chisels, some times the end of the chisel doesn't get tempered as well as further back in the blade. If your supplier agrees, try grinding off 1/8th inch of the blade end and resharpen.

You can easily retemper the chisel with a home oven or a mapp gas torch. There are several threads on SMC that cover this.

Sorby is a high quality tool. IMO, most unlikely to not keep an edge if set to the proper material cutting angle.

[george wilson]

Sorby chisel are very soft. I actually had to re harden some Sorby wood lathe chisels to get them to keep an edge. Even then,we have no way of knowing the steel they use.

I think either Sorby is making them soft to avoid liability if one snaps off,or is just running on a long defunct name.

Some time ago I read somewhere that some chisel makers were going to make their chisels softer in cse one broke off ,getting slivers in someone's eye.

[Tony Zaffuto]

The Sorby chisels I have are four of the long paring style. Being a paring chisel, I have these beveled at a low 20 degrees and they work fine for paring work in the cherry, white oak, poplar and walnut I work with. Edge retention is not the same as A2, yet it is not something I take issue with.

One of my favorite chisels is a very old London pattern (handle) chisel. It may have started off as a paring style, but the length of blade left is much, much less and it is a bit thicker and almost a bench style except that the side bevels come virtually to a point. This is beveled at 25 degrees and is exceptional in edge holding ability in the same woods, either with light mallet or paring cuts.

As George has stated, don't discount re-heat treating chisels yourself if they won't hold an edge. For the price of what it costs to buy a Sorby, I would consider returning them to the vendor. Fortunately, the ones I have do not have edge retaining issues, except for the 3/4", which did for about the first 1/8" of length and now it is fine. The four paring chisels have been purchased individually over the past couple of years from different vendors.

T.Z.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I have a set of the London pattern makers style handled Sorby bench chisels, they are a handsome chisel, but they don't hold an edge worth a hoot.

I have tried every bevel angle possible and it really doesn't matter..

Interestingly, on most of the chisels you can clearly see the prick mark that a Rockwell hardness tester makes, so what ever hardness the tool steel was made was either within tolerance or someone didn't care..

[Mike Henderson]

George Wilson can better comment, but when I had carving gouges (Henry Taylor) with heat treating problems, I found the edge to be too hard - the steel would fracture during use and even during sharpening. Grinding back got rid of the excessively hard steel and those gouges are some of my favorites today.

It seems unlikely to me (but I'm not an expert) that the edge would be soft and the interior would be hard.

Mike

[george wilson]

If the edge rolls,it's got to be that they are too soft,which is what I have found myself as mentioned. Question is,are they made of decent enough steel to reharden? You'd have to grind the ends square to keep them from warping if you did re harden them.

[Larry Rose]

I've got a set of Sorby paring chisels and they are completely useless. You can actualy see the curl after a couple minutes work.

[Richard Dooling]

As always, thanks for all the great info.

Oh well. At least it’s not my imagination – these really are junk!

I’ve had them too long to return. I held on to them assuming I was not sharpening properly, but now with a little more experience I see how much better some of my other chisels are.

My old Freuds are much better than these Sorbys and thanks George for writing about using a known file to test for approximate Rockwell scale hardness. Pretty sad if it’s true that they may be intentionally using softer steel to avoid litigious chiselers chafing to cheat based on ballistic slivers.

In answer to some of the posts:

I keep most of my bench chisels at 25* and mortise chisels at 30*. These are currently at 25*. I suppose that a 30* microbevel will help, and as these are firmer chisels, I can see fully regrinding at 30*. This isn’t what I expect from chisels at this price and with this name.

Thanks Mike, it makes sense that if anything, the edge would be harder than the body so I don’t expect that grinding back will help, but on Terry’s suggestion and since I’ve got nothing to loose I’ll try grinding about 1/8” off the tip.

So . . .

I may try heat treating them someday since there’s not much to loose. I’ll hunt up the threads here.

I’ve wanted to play around with regrinding into some special shapes - fun.

I will take one and hone it as well as I can and give it to a brother-in-law I don’t particularly care for. Did I say that out loud? Oops.

[george wilson]

Richard,Quite a sentence about the litiginous chiselers!! Should be put to music!!.

You are correct,the edge area of the chisels would be(or,should be) the hardest area. Usually,they were heated at the tang,letting the temper creep towards the edge.

Another BIG problem with rehardening is this: The chisels will warp for sure with the bevel being on one side only. Why don't you just try hardening the last INCH of one of them? Heat it up to orange with a mapp gas torch. Take bricks,make a corner to lay the chisel in to trap the heat. Sometimes I take 2 mapp gas torches,to get something large orange hot.

Quench in vegetable oil. Test for hardness with a file. If you got the steel orange,and it still can be filed,do it again,and quench in water. That's how I determine what an unknown steel is. With those chisels,for sure,it's not going to be air hardening steel.

When you get them glass hard,sand off the blade,and starting away from the edge,heat the blade,and let the colors creep SLOWLY towards the edge. When a light brown reaches the edge,quench it again. If you were real careful,and the brown didn't get any darker,you could just let it air cool,but quenching arrests the tempering to be safe.

You should at least have ground the bevel off the cutting edge first to help avoid warping.

Now,you have 1" of good edge,but how many decades do you think that 1" will last?

Doing just the last inch will hopefully avoid warping the chisel. WhenI rehardened the Sorby lathe chisel,I only did the last part of the blade. It'll last a long time.Then,you can harden it again.

[Richard Dooling]

Thanks George.

I don't know when I'll have a chance to try this so I'm pasting your instructions into a Word document to munch on later.

I don't have the chisels in front of me right now but I guess the blade extends about 4" to 5" from a leather washer and ash handle with a steel ferrule.

If I just heat the last inch do you think I need to remove the handle?

[george wilson]

Try it on a narrow chisel first. I'd think probably so,with the blades that length.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

It seems most agree the hardening of Sorby bench chisels is a bit soft and the measures that need be taken to fix the problem may not be something we are all interested in trying. The next logical question would be; short of buying a set of laminated Japanese chisels or indulging ourselves with LN tools, are there any modern chisels someone likes well enough to recommend to the rest of us?
Faust Ruggiero

[RickT Harding]

The next logical question would be; short of buying a set of laminated Japanese chisels or indulging ourselves with LN tools, are there any modern chisels someone likes well enough to recommend to the rest of us?
Faust Ruggiero

Agree there. I've been collecting Sorby chisels bit by bit. I got my first at rockler because I figured you get what you pay for and I liked the oct. handle for less rolling around. Since they're all I've ever known I figure I might as well try something people consider decent to compare against.

The LN are definitely on my pricey side and the LV ones seem almost too cheap by comparison. Where's the middle ground for most people?

[george wilson]

I like my Pfiel Swiss chisels from Woodcraft just fine. I don't know what a set costs now.these were a gift.I don't want to pay $350.00 for a set of LN chisels. I also like my old Marples from 1965,too,and have some about 20 years old that are o.k..Not comparing them to any high end chisels,but they are more affordable.I haven't tested any of their new chisels. I'd advise the Pfiels,myself. They rated next to the best in a recent Fine Woodworking test. The best were some expensive Japanese chisels. I prefer western chisels,myself. I expect Narex chisels would be a good bargain,from Garrett Wade. I have a Narex universal boring head for my milling machine,that cost about $2500.00 new. They do make very high quality machinist's tools. Sorby has always been a sorry brand in modern times. I'll bet the Sorby lathe tool I rehardened was at least 30 years old,or more.

[Mike Henderson]

It seems most agree the hardening of Sorby bench chisels is a bit soft and the measures that need be taken to fix the problem may not be something we are all interested in trying. The next logical question would be; short of buying a set of laminated Japanese chisels or indulging ourselves with LN tools, are there any modern chisels someone likes well enough to recommend to the rest of us?
Faust Ruggiero
I don't own any but a lot of people speak highly of the Ashley Iles chisels.

I have some LN chisels and one Blue Spruce. All are good but expensive.

Mike

[dan grant]

i have a set of LN and LV plus an assortment of marples, i also picked up a set of 4 marked enggtools (havent been able to find out who makes them, very thin chisels) so i have about 30 within reach and i tend to use the LV more, for a hundred bucks i dont mind hitting them with the hammer but they are bulky and i had problems with a few edges 2 out of 9 wouldnt hold an edge at first, no doubt LN is a better chisel but not 6x as the price would indicate,

[george wilson]

P.S.,I didn't pay $2500.00 for the Narex boring head. I got it new in the box from a used machinery dealer for $200.00. He thought the shank was missing. They don't come with shanks!! The shanks are all different,so you buy one that fits your machine !!:)

[John Keeton]

I use the Pfeil bench chisels ($150 set of 6), and they do very well. Seem to hold an edge for a good long while, but I work in walnut, oak and no exotics. Some have commented they didn't like the handles, but then Mike Henderson would make handles for anything that lays around for more than 2 days!:D Mike, I always enjoy seeing your handle work - you do a great job! Want to re-handle my Pfeils??

Also, recently purchased the cheap Narex chisels ($22 for a set of four) that I have not used enough to comment on, except to say that they arrived considerably sharper than most new chisels of that price range. For the money, a very nice looking chisel - comfortable, but probably not the best handle design. But, less than $6/ea.!

Then, I have several Blue Spruce dovetail chisels. One cannot take anything away from the BS chisels!! Superb quality, good edge retention, and just a work of art. But then the price does reflect that!!

[Terry Beadle]

One more suggestion. Before you do the heat treat/tempering suggested ( Great description! ), I note you stated the primary bevel was 25 and 30.

I bought the Ashley Ilses set of six and they came with 30 degrees primary. The edges rolled. I honed a 35 degree micro bevel and no problems ever since. Really retains the edge, very readily sharpened to razor edge. Green rouge honing to keep in shape ( infrequently ).

I suggest you do a 1/8 to 3/16ths micro bevel on one of the 30 degree chisels set at 35 and give it a test go in SYP. If it cuts well and no curly edge, you may be in luck. Else, I'd go with the tempering suggested.

Best of luck.

[Jim Koepke]

My first chisels were bought new when I first started working wood. They are still in my shop and get used occasionally. My intent was to buy a set one at a time. Before this happened, the company changed the style and then the name. They were Sandvick and became Bocho.

My brother picked up about twenty chisels at an estate sale and brought them to me. These were all old chisels and some were real keepers, Buck Brothers, Union and Stanley. After that, most of my chisels have come from eBay. Sure, there is always a bit of risk, but paying attention and asking questions can lower the risk. I now have a set of users that is missing only a few of the odd sizes and has duplicates in many of the common sizes.

My brother is a real scavenger, he has brought me a bunch of chisels he finds at estate sales there was even a Stanley 750 in good shape in one of the lots he brought me.

The cost iss a lot less than buying new and the joy of the hunt can be a lot of fun. Eventually, I will try to acquire the missing 1/16 and 1/8 sizes not in my set, but it is not a big priority.

The great thing is that most of the old chisels in my accumulation are better than the ones I bought when getting started.

jim

[Richard Dooling]

The Narex chisels sure look good for the price and scored well in the FWW review.

Pfiel set of six at Woodcraft = $160 (Swiss)
Narex set of six at Highland = $50 (Czech Republic)

Everyone looks for the 720s and 750s. Kind of like all the collectors driving up the price of Bedrock planes. Any other lesser known, older chisels that might be recommended?

Jim, I've seen the Buck brand, how do you like the Union chisels?

[george wilson]

terry,if you ground the ends to 90 degrees,it would hold up even better!!

[Joe Stephenson]

My Sorby paring chisel is on the soft side. It's not a problem for a paring chisel, but probably would be if the chisel were struck with a mallet. My answer to the chisel problem is to pay the price to get the quality of a LN chisel. Not only is the metallurgy good, but the design and feel of the LN chisels are the best based on my informal assessment.

By the way, My Sorby had a dimple from Rockwell testing, but it was on the flat side of the tool, and ony about a half inch from the end. At some time, I will have to grind past the dimple to sharpen the chisel. Perhaps the test could have been done on the back of the chisel?

cheers,

Joe Stephenson

[jamie shard]

And found that the chisels were ground to about 23 degrees as shipped. This angle crumbled when paring the end grain of a pine board. I suspect they do that because the unhoned edge will seem sharper than a rough ground edge at a higher angle.

Anyway, since these are going to be my mallet-driven chisels, I ground them to 30 degrees and obviously they hold up much better.

But it made me wonder, what is the typical angle for hammer/mallet driven chisels? It can't be 20 or 25 degrees... or can it?

[Dave Anderson NH]

Most modern bench chisels with beveled edges have been ground at the factory to a 25 degree bevel. The softer ones benefit greatly from an increased bevel angle of 27 to 30 degrees. For chisels beging regularkly mallet driven I'd go with the 30. Mortising chisels are an entirely different matter and if less than 30 are guaranteed to show major chipping, folding, or crumbling of the edge depending on the level of hardness.

[jamie shard]

Makes sense Dave!

[Richard Dooling]

I'll try the regrind on one of the 1/2" chisels. The ones I have are all firmer chisels that I bought specifically for striking.

With this concept in mind, do you thing a micro back bevel would help or would that make the chisel prone to wander I wonder.

[Peter Scoma]

Ive found the laminated japanese chisels from Grizzly hard to beat. They are quite inexpensive but hold an edge better than anything else I have tried (Sorby, marples, 2 cherries). A set of ten runs around 135$ I think. I'm pretty sure they are identical to the japanese chisels sold elsewhere.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Japanese-Chisels-10-pc-Set/G7102

I actually picked up a 1" when I was in the Muncy store just to try out. I think it was 12$ or so. wasnt long before I purchased more. Their western style chisels are garbage.

PS

[Richard Dooling]

That looks interesting Peter. I think I'll try one and see how I like it.

John, have you a sense of the quality of the Narex chisels? I see that Highland is carrying Narex mortise chisels now.

[John Keeton]

Richard, Highland is where I purchased my Narex chisels. But, when I purchased mine (February??) the price was $22. Still a good deal at $27.

Right now I am in the midst of a project and my attention has been diverted. I have not really had an opportunity to use them a great deal, and in fact, they still have the factory edge on them. My intended purpose was for more rough work, preserving my Pfeil for dovetail chopping, and my BS for paring and light chopping. I just haven't had the need to use the Narex much at this point.

However, I am impressed with the finish, and the factory edge is quite sharp - not what one may want for a final edge, but certainly far beyond most new chisels I have seen. Much smoother honing and an easier starting point for a scary sharp edge. Hope to be able to report more a little later. I will try today to get an edge on them, but no promises!

There have been other positive comments on the Griz Japanese chisels, and I considered them. But, I really just wanted a 4 piece set for rough work, so the price was right on the Narex.

[Peter Scoma]

Glad to hear others are liking the Narex. I have a set of mortise chisels arriving on Monday from highland. I only wish I would have ordered a set of bench chisels as well.

PS