Sharpening 101, a few fuzzy areas of understanding

[Dan Karachio]

Hello,

Okay, I have a set of Norton stones (250, 1000, 4000 and 8000) and a Veritas jig. I feel pretty good about using all of this and have had some success with planes and chisels. There is one part of sharpening I do not understand. Many tutorials show people using a grinding wheel to grind the bevel. I do not have a grinding wheel and I understand it would be nice, but not necessary. I guess my question is, when does one need to grind a bevel and how would you do it with a stone vs. a wheel.

I * think* the answer is I do not need to grind the bevel unless there is damage to the blade and/or newer blades do not need this and in those cases I can just hone them, probably starting at 1000. For blades that need the bevel ground I can use my 250 grit stone. Right? No? Also, I have watched about 50 Youtube videos and none make this clear to me. I have the Lie Nielsen book, but it seems to jump around a bit and does not clearly lay out the use of just stones.

Thanks in advance

Dan

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, you've got it essentially. The grinder is sometimes used a fast way to make pronounced changes to an edge - e.g., change the angle or grind past a chip after you drop a chisel on the concrete floor. Imagine how long it would take you to change a 25 degree bevel to a 35 on a 1000 grit stone! It will go much quicker if you remove the bulk with the 250 and then use the finer grits as usual to refine and polish.

The 250 might also be the place to start for back flattening if, for example, you were restoring a neglected vintage chisel.

[Prashun Patel]

You'll have to periodically regrind yr bevel to flat to remove nicks. But you can do it with your stones. The wheel will make quicker work of it. However, since wheels are concave, they can grind the bevel slightly concave which results in a 'hollow ground' bevel.

It's not BAD, but just slightly different from a flat grind from a stone. The worksharp is a wheel too, but the sharpening side is on the side of the wheel not the edge, so it results in a flat bevel too. There are probably times when one is preferable to another, but if yr new to chisels (like me) it ain't gonna make much diff.

[Dan Karachio]

Thank you Sean! It's funny, but there is simply so much material out there it can be a little overwhelming and it's easy to miss the basics. Still, there may be a grinding wheel in my future. I saw a video on youtube where this woman was using a hand cranked grinding wheel on her plane blades.

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks to the other Shawn too. That really clears things up. I was confused about whether or not I had to have a hollow ground bevel. I get it now.

[Chris Friesen]

Imagine how long it would take you to change a 25 degree bevel to a 35 on a 1000 grit stone!

No time at all...use a microbevel. Going the other way, however, would take a long time.

[Sean Hughto]

Oops, yeah, I got that backwards. I meant taking a steeper bevel to a significantly shallower one.

[Wilbur Pan]

No time at all...use a microbevel. Going the other way, however, would take a long time.

That's actually one of the main reasons why I don't use microbevels.

Having said that, the biggest time saver I've come up with for sharpening (actually, honing) is to leave my finest grit waterstone out where I can use it at a moment's notice. This makes running the tool over the waterstone really convenient, which means that instead of spending 15 minutes bringing back a dulled blade, I only spend about 30-60 seconds running the blade edge over the fine grit waterstone. I read a saying once that said, "The more you sharpen, the less you sharpen," referring to this.

Dan, in your case, I'd start on the 8000 grit first, and back down to the finest stone you need to still quickly rehone the tool. If you are consistently going back to the 1000 grit stone, you're probably waiting too long between sharpenings.

[Bill Stoffels]

these are very simple to follow and will give you excellent results.
I just got doen sharpening 4 Lie Nieesen planes and it took me all of 4 hours. but they have never worked better
Just a thought
Bill

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks Wilbur and Bill,

I think I have reached a new stage in newbie sharpening. I am now past the fear stage! I have been practicing on very inexpensive planes and chisels and just this weekend got very good results (a Groz block plane is now producing perfect shavings and a really smooth surface on the edge of boards), but now am ready to work on my two new LN planes and Phiel chisels. All are relatively new and were pretty darn good out of the box, but I was afraid I would screw them up. I'm almost thinking about calling in sick today and spending the day with the hand tools!

Wilbur, I like your idea a lot. I have enough space to keep a set up, so I will work on this. Thanks again!

Dan

[Rob Luter]

I use a grinder to restore a bevel on my chisels and plane irons. Usually, this only takes place when I'm rehabbing an older tool, fixing damage, or changing the bevel on something. The hollow grind works out really well, making subsequent honing go much quicker. Joel M. at TFWW had a little tutorial published in FWW magazine issue #198 on how to do this. It's posted on the FWW website too. It's what got me started doing this (thanks Joel). I have to say it's a pretty simple process and saves a great deal of time.

[Derek Cohen]

when does one need to grind a bevel and how would you do it with a stone vs. a wheel.

Dan, you are ready for Sharpening 102.

One day someone will write an article on "Sharpening in a Developmetal Sequence", and this would describe #101, #102, #103 ... Most appear to start with honing a flat bevel. Actually, some (the Japanese) end there, but that is another story.

One of the methods for sharpening a blade begins with creating a hollow ground bevel. Grinding on a wheel is not simply about removing nicks. It is about preparing the bevel for honing.

If you freehand blades, then you will want to hollow grind the bevels. This applies especially to bevel down planes and chisels.

The only time I use a flat grind and secondary bevel is with bevel up plane blades. Otherwise I avoid secondary bevels like the plague. If you want to understand why, read the following article....

http://finewoodworking.taunton.com/item/8521/a-sharpening-strategy-beyond-a-sharp-edge

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Roderick]

The only thing I would add is that I suggest not using the 250 grit stone to create a new bevel. When you're trying to remove a lot of metal, the stone itself become hollowed pretty quickly, so you have to stop pretty frequently to re-flatten the stone and it just becomes a pain. When I was at a Lie-Nielsen show a couple years ago, they suggested that for the initially lapping of the back and re-grinding the bevel you use sandpaper-on-glass instead. You do have to replace the sandpaper every now and again, but it's always flat and that's what matters most. You can buy rolls of sticky sandpaper pretty inexpensively.

This has worked very well for me. I have a 220 grit stone but now I never use it.

[Sean Hughto]

While not cheap, diamond plates like this are also a good alternative:

http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-10-Inch-DuoSharp-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL/ref=pd_cp_hi_3?pf_rd_p=413863601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00004WFUK&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0HYSNMTE2YWRGXGC2MT2

I use mine, a lot.

[Johnny Kleso]

A cheap grinder is the way to go..
I tried putting it off for as long as I could and almost killed the the stones I was using...

A cheap HF grinder I think is a must and maybe something you might want to buy before the $$$ drops against the Yen

[Joel Moskowitz]

A grinder is the SINGLE most important tool in a western woodshop. grinders of one sort or another, powered, hand cranked, foot treaded, etc have been the way to maintain basic tool geometry for at least 1000 years - maybe longer.

[lowell holmes]

The book "Furniture Doctor" tells of using mill bastard files to sharpen chisels. It works. I have re-filed the bevel on a chisel and then honed the chisel on a diamond hone. You can't detect how the bevel on the chisel is made.

A file is a good way to square the end of a chisel as well.

I now use a 6" Delta variable speed grinder and Norton water stones. Norton's cd about using their stones will show you how to free hand the sharpening. It is essentailly Mike Dunbar's technique. I have both Veritas jigs, but seldom use them since watching the Norton video.

[Dan Karachio]

I'm starting to wonder if I didn't blow it. The Norton stones I have are okay from what I hear, but for the same money I have tied in all this I could have bought a Work Sharp. Still, that doesn't look like it can create a hollow ground bevel. Right?

[Jim Koepke]

I'm starting to wonder if I didn't blow it. The Norton stones I have are okay from what I hear, but for the same money I have tied in all this I could have bought a Work Sharp. Still, that doesn't look like it can create a hollow ground bevel. Right?

Right, the Work Sharp as I understand it does not create a hollow ground bevel.

There is nothing in my shop to create a hollow ground bevel. There is a Veritas MK II Power Sharpening system. This is great for establishing a bevel and doing a lot of metal removal. It also can put a mirror polish on the bevel.

This said, the stones get used a lot more in my shop when just a little sharpening needs to be done on a blade. It is easier to wet the stones and free hand an edge in a couple of minutes at most than to set up the power equipment. YMMV.

jim

[Sean Hughto]

I'm starting to wonder if I didn't blow it. The Norton stones I have are okay from what I hear, but for the same money I have tied in all this I could have bought a Work Sharp. Still, that doesn't look like it can create a hollow ground bevel. Right?

I've never used a WorkSharp, but I routinely use my Norton stones. You didn't blow it at all.

Also, while some guys like hollow grinds for various reasons, they are not the be all end all. Flat grinds work fine too.

I think every woodworker has to figure out what works for him or her. It's not one size fits all, and there is virtually nothing in woodworkign that can only be done one way.

[Tom Adger]

Sean nailed it. There is no one "right" way. To get a fast bevel, I use my 6x48 belt sander, with a 320 grit belt. Also a tool rest set at the angle I want. Be careful you don't keep it on the belt too long, as it generates a lot of heat.

[lowell holmes]

If you don't have the Norton CD about using their stones, I suggest you try to get it.
They make free hand sharpening incredibly easy. You will forget about what you should have bought. :)

[Derek Cohen]

Sean nailed it. There is no one "right" way. To get a fast bevel, I use my 6x48 belt sander, with a 320 grit belt. Also a tool rest set at the angle I want. Be careful you don't keep it on the belt too long, as it generates a lot of heat.

Hi Tom

I agree - there are a vaste number of ways to grind and hone a blade. High- and low speed grinders, belt sanders, belt grinders, disk sanders, motorised waterstones, artificial and natural waterstones, diamond stones, oil stones, sandpaper ...

It comes down to just three bevel shapes: flat, hollow, and secondary.

Large flat bevels are easy to freehand, but a lot of work unless that are laminated steel, such as Japanese blades. Hollow grinds facilitate fast honing, but grinding a hollow is intimidating for some. Secondary bevels are easy on a honing guide, but demand greater precision when re-sharpening.

Eventually, after experimenting, most will find a method with which they feel comfortable.

A word about the belt sander as a grinder. I designed a jig some years ago (published in FWW) that may interest you.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Figure1-1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/BladeHolder1.jpg

I usually grind on 80 grit, maximum 120 grit. I fear that you will burn your blades on 320 grit.

Regards from Perth

Derek