Can this Stanley #4 be saved!

[Paul Ryan]

Hey Guys,

I am pretty much a power tool monger. I dont do much with hand tools. But occasionally it would be nice to have the use of a plane. Maybe some day I will learn the vertues of using hand tools insead of the electrical type.

A couple of weeks ago I was rummaging around in my fathers basment and came across this old stanely #4. I am not quite sure what type it is. Maybe from the pics you guys could give me an idea. But my concern is can it be saved. The sole is in really bad shape. It is very coroded, the corosion goes deep as you can see from the pics. I am not so worried about the handles they dont seem to be cracked, I can strip them down and redo those unless you have better advice for those too. It is the sole I am worried about. What would you guys do.

Any advice would be greatly appriciated.

[Paul Ryan]

I can take more pictures if they would help. This is the last one I have for now.

[Ken Werner]

That plane has lots of potential. You could soak it in evaporust to clean off the crud/rust and then flatten the sole. Looks like good wood and plenty of iron left on the blade. Lots of elbow grease and a dab of patience. You've surely got a keeper there.

[Joel Runyan]

I believe it's a type 16, which were made from 1933-41. Not the most collectible, but definitely a desirable and usable plane. You could use it for smoothing or just general use... not sure how much you know about planes.

I think the only thing that would take the sole completely out of commission is if it was cracked... or way out of flat, but that's unlikely. Evaporust, electrolysis, abrasives... like he said, clean it off, flatten the sole and fettle that thing!

Oh, and in case you wanted to read more, https://home.comcast.net/~rexmill/planes101/planes101.htm is a great resource.

[Matt Wilson]

I agree with Ken. That plane will clean up nicely.
If it where mine...
-I'd take it all apart.
-Give the rusty pieces a bath in your favorite rust remover (citric acid for me). After the bath I rise it all off in water and dry it with a heat gun. After the heat gun while the plane is still warm I usually put some wax on the sides and sole.
-I wouldn't touch the handles other than maybe trying to get the paint off.
-sharpen the iron
-make sure the chip breaker has a nice seal with the blade
-reassemble (adjust the mouth to taste)
-test it out
-if unhappy with performance check the sole for flatness and or try another iron or post questions here...

If the sole has some pitting it should still be okay. If it really bugs you, you can try filling the holes with epoxy I guess (just a though).

[Tristan Raymond]

Of course you can clean it up. However, you might want to look around at prices, you could probably get a much nicer No. 4 for $20 or less on eBay. I guess it depends upon the sentimental value and if you enjoy tuning up planes (I do, but YMMV).

[Tom Veatch]

... It is the sole I am worried about...

Don't be. Not worth much as a "collectible", but should make a good user.

As far as the pitting on the sole is concerned, take a look at a "C" type plane, as in "4C". All those came from the factory with much deeper "pits" than you'll find on yours. Of course, those are called "corrugations" and are all aligned with the long axis of the plane. But the point is, the sole doesn't have to be continuous over the entire surface for the plane to be usable.

[Bill Houghton]

If you want to approach it in an even simpler way, disassemble it, go to the kitchen and grab an SOS/Brillo pad, fill a dishpan or something similar with warm water, and go at the parts with the SOS pad. Be careful around the cutting edge - blood's not a useful cleaning solvent.

As you go, dry each part off with a towel and spray liberally with WD-40, draining on newspapers or paper towels. Once you're done, dry off again, then re-assemble, waxing the operating surfaces with furniture wax (do NOT use car wax, which contains fine abrasives - furniture wax can be found in any big box home center or hardware store, and some grocery stores).

This won't be pretty, necessarily, but it'll be functional, and you can go fancier later without a problem.

The rust levels shown aren't necessarily an issue, unless they're on the cutting iron - and, even then, you can replace the iron easily (various aftermarket irons - Lee Valley, Hock, etc. - are available).

You can have this working in about an hour; it's well worth it.

[Matt Ranum]

That should clean up pretty decent, I've done worse.

[Paul Ryan]

Thanks for all of the replies. Since all of the discoloration on the sole is pitting I was really concerend. So what you are telling me is as long as the sole is flat that is the most important thing? I will try to clean it up tonight. I have to practice sharpening also. Since I have basically zero experience with planes, sharpening will be interesting.

[Matt Ranum]

As long as the mouth of the plane isn't chipped or cracked I wouldn't worry about rust pits on the sole. Just make it flat. Now if the blade has rust pits on it well then you will want a different blade since the pits will make it difficult to get the edge needed, and most on the forums will tell you to get an aftermarket blade such as a "Hock" blade anyway. Better steel and thicker too.

[Brian Kent]

What encourages me about the sole is the clean spot right in front of the mouth. A little fettling on sandpaper glued to a flat surface will get it flat enough. You need sontact surface right there in front of the mouth.

[Richard Niemiec]

If the sole has some pitting it should still be okay. If it really bugs you, you can try filling the holes with epoxy I guess (just a though).

I have to disagree about the epoxy..... it would destroy the integrity and usefulness of the plane, and any value as well.

Take it gently to a belt sander at 60 grit to remove the worst of it, being careful not to dish it, then take a sharpie and mark the sole with lines, then move to 100 grit wet/dry on some glass or your tablesaw top and work the sole flat, moving up in grits to get it smooth. A few pits here and there won't matter, getting it flat at the toe, heel and immediately before and after the throat is what counts. Fine tune as needed. You can do the sandpaper thing with the cheeks, not the belt sander.

Alternatively, since this has some sentimental value, theres a guy with the handle "Tablesaw Tom" over on Woodnet who has a surface grinder and he will do a wonderful job in flattening the sole as well as squaring the sole to the sides. Good guy who does excellent work. Don't take it to a buddy with a surface grinder who has not previously worked on planes as this is incredibly easy to futz up.

[Richard Niemiec]

Oh, BTW, when you are doing all this sanding, keep the iron in the plane under normal use tension.

[Jim Kountz]

That thing is in excellent shape compared to some Ive reworked. I have one that was a total rust bucket pretty much and I made a decent user out of it. Years ago I got a video of Mike Dunbar restoring an old plane and he gave some nice tips on getting them back into shape whether they look pretty or not.

[Matt Wilson]

I have to disagree about the epoxy..... it would destroy the integrity and usefulness of the plane, and any value as well.


Can you expand on that. I'm not sure how it would impact the usefulness of the plane. You could put some epoxy in the pits and then lap it flat... I've never done it personally, but I've seen posts from others that have.

btw, I wouldn't do anything with the pitting. I was just throwing it out as an option if it was really bothering him.

[Bill Houghton]

"Hey I need a 2x4". "How long you want it?" "I'm building a house with it, I need it a long time."

Years ago, when our University had an official AudioVisual department, they had a cartoon up on the wall:

Teacher: I need a film.
AV guy: About what?
Teacher: about 45 minutes. That'll use up the class time.

[Richard Niemiec]

Can you expand on that. I'm not sure how it would impact the usefulness of the plane. You could put some epoxy in the pits and then lap it flat... I've never done it personally, but I've seen posts from others that have.

Well, in my experience "pits" in iron are not all that deep to begin with, and unless they are quite numerous and wide, may not affect use. Putting in any type of filler results in a thin veneer of filler, and it will wear differently than iron, either harder or softer, so you are introducing a materials variable into something you want to be flat and to stay flat. Better to work with the material you have and grind/lap it out so you have a consistent material surface, which in the end will be what it was intended to be.

Besides, it will look like chit. And as far as value, I, nor anyone I know, would buy a #4 with expoxy filler for the reason stated above.

[Matt Wilson]

Besides, it will look like chit.

LOL no arguments there...



And as far as value, I, nor anyone I know, would buy a #4 with expoxy filler for the reason stated above.

Well, I don't think this plane really has any significant resale value, so I wouldn't take that into consideration. I doubt the epoxy would wear faster than the iron, but I can't say I know that much about the properties of epoxy.
Personally I wouldn't do anything with any pits. For a couple of reasons
1- If the sole is already "flat" enough, you're more likely to screw up the sole rather than fix it.
2- Is the plane really isn't worth the cost of getting its sole ground? You could probably buy another antique for cheaper and put Grand-dad's plane on the mantel.

cheers
Matt

[Matt Ranum]

Years ago, when our University had an official AudioVisual department, they had a cartoon up on the wall:

Teacher: I need a film.
AV guy: About what?
Teacher: about 45 minutes. That'll use up the class time.


That was a quote from my Uncle to one his sons that was helping him build a house. He was great for stuff like that.:)

[Johnny Kleso]

You can save it but IMHO if it takes more than an hour to get sole near flat, thats way to much work and cheaper to buy another and use the parts to make a super plane...

[Paul Ryan]

Well, the plane is cleaning up nicely with the help and suggestions from you guys. I have soaked it, then scrubbed, now the sole is soaking again. All of the other parts cleaned up really nice. I got the paint of the wood with a little simple green and elbow grease. I didn't even hurt the finish on the handle. I have started sharping the blade it is pretty beat up. As far as the sole goes the pitts are very deep. I would say .030 minimum. As far as I know I would have to take it some where and have them grind that out. Unfortunatly I dont have any machinst friends. I am going to check how flat it is tonight after I scrub it somemore and get as much of that black chit out as I can. I will post some more picks latter. Thanks again for all of the help. Is a machine shop the place to check to have the sole ground?

[Bill Houghton]

Is a machine shop the place to check to have the sole ground?

Yes, but, again, you may not need to at all. Have a look at the "pits" at the link below:

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm#num2c

As long as you've got contact over a sufficient number of points on the sole, and the area around the mouth is flat, the pits are meaningful only aesthetically.

[Paul Ryan]

Sorry, about the post Bill. I quess what I implied was that I was planning on using the plane this way if at all possible. And it was more a question than anything. Meaning, if the pitts are so deep .030 is the only way to remove them by sending it to a machine shop? I am just about to head out to the shop and see how it turns out.

One other question. This will show you how much of an amature I am. The blade has a cove within the bevel. The cove goes inward. Is this called a hollow bevel? Is this necessary. In order to grind out the nicks this cove will be gone. Is that ok. I am using stones. A sharpening system I use for knives. A gato system. It has a 30 degree setting and that is what matched the bevel on the blade. I will sharpen the back of the blade with scary sharp. Thanks again.

[Paul Ryan]

Here are the pics of how the plane turned out. I spend along time sharpening last night.

The sole is .005 under in front of and for about 1/2 behind the mouth. That is if I lay the straight edge along the entire sole. If I pull the straight edge off of the pitting in the rear of the plane then the front and the rear of the mouth are only .001 under. Is that OK?

[Jim Koepke]

The only way to answer your question is to see the shavings the plane can make.

I have one plane that was almost as bad and now works fine.

Here is a link to the thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=70405

Fortunately since then, I have learned how to post pictures better.

jim

[Matt Wilson]

Is that OK?

Hey Paul,
The only real way to answer that is try it out! ;)

cheers
Matt

[Matt Ranum]

Nice job Paul, looks like the pickle juice worked huh.:p

Get playing with it and make some curls:D

Matt-



.

[Johnny Kleso]

I would not use it as my No1 smoother but will work fine as a small rougher till you find another donor planes to improve the sole you have...

I would not spend the time trying to get the pits out its much less work to just buy a good plane with broken handle to use as a donor..

[Paul Ryan]

Matt,

The pickle juice worked great I didn't really have to soak it that long. Just a few others. Other than sharpening that blade it was kind of fun. I will have to look into how to adjust it and use it. I really dont know much about that. I tried it a little bit but only got small shavings not any nice curls.

[Jim Koepke]

I will have to look into how to adjust it and use it. I really dont know much about that. I tried it a little bit but only got small shavings not any nice curls.


Surely, different folks have different ways to do the adjusting. My method is put a piece of scrap in the vise, then to back the blade off until it is not engaging the wood. With the plane on the wood, it is slowly moved forward while the adjuster is turned to lower the blade. The plane is also moved from one side to the other during the motion since often the blade will cut more on one side than the other. Once the blade starts to shave the wood, it is checked to see if it is doing more on one side than the other. The lateral adjuster is then used as needed to straighten the cut. After a while, you will be able to take a swipe down a board's edge on one side of the blade and then the other and compare the feel of the shaving to set the lateral.

When you have the blade cutting fairly evenly, adjust the blade in and out to get used to the back lash. If you sharpened the blade with a camber, the shavings will be thiner at the edges or possibly not be produced at the edge.

If "too much" lateral adjustment is needed, check that the blade bevel is relatively square. The frog can be rotated a bit or you might have a base and frog that are not coming together in a line square to the direction of travel for the plane. This would require a bit of inspection of the parts to determine where the fettling is needed.

jim

[Paul Ryan]

I just tried a couple of quick pushes last night. And what I got was small shavings that built up in the mouth of the plane. I will have more of a chance to play with it this weekend. Thanks again. I am sure I will have more questions.

[Paul Ryan]

Well,

I had a chance to use the plane today. The blade seems to be pretty sharp I was able to get nice thin shavings from parts of the blade. I couldn't get the whole blade to cut at the same time. I think it is a result of my sharpening method.

Just thought I would let you know that the plane seems to work as designed. I will have to work on sharpening methods now.