Wiring question

[Matt Meiser]

OK, this is actually in my house. I tore out a 1/2 wall that divided our family room and dining room this evening. The wall had receptacles on both sides, and it turns out they are are two different circuits and are in the middle of those circuits so I can't just go to the upstream boxes and disconnect the wiring feeding them. At least one is going to be moved into the adjacent wall. The other I have three options I've thought of:

1) Open up the wall, drill down into the basement, run the wiring down into a junction box down there. I don't like this because it will mean more drywall repair work than I currently need to do.
2) Install two single junction boxes and move both circuits into the wall. I think this will look dumb.
3) The option I'm currently leaning towards is to put in a double box and put both receptacles in that box. This would mean two different circuits in the same box. Not sure that is kosher.

[Cam Livingstone]

2 circuits in a box is not a problem, in some places like kitchens it is actually required.

[Adam Stone]

Matt,

Cam is correct about two circuits in one junction/receptacle box - no problem.

Another option is install an old work box that's large enough for the number of conductors and devices and just wire nut conductors together from the circuit of the receptacle you want to remove. The remaining receptacle from the other circuit can be wired as normal. The splice on the first circuit will be accessible as required. If you need a double gang box for proper cu/in, then just use a single receptacle cover for the double box.

Adam

[Matt Meiser]

Adam, I'd thought about that too--forgot to put it on my list. I figure if I need the double box, might as well put in the receptacles.

[Rob Russell]

Matt, if you are going to have 2 different circuits running to pair of duplex receptacles in a 2-gang box, my personal preference is to have those on a 2-pole breaker.

That is not required by the NEC and can cause nuisance trips on the opposing circuit. IOW, if something on circuit #1 overloads and trips the breaker, both circuit #1 and #2 are killed.

The NEC requirement has always been that 2 circuits on the same yoke (ex. "splitwiring" a duplex receptacle) had to have a common disconnect. Back to my personal preference - I want to know that killing a single breaker de-energizes both of the circuits to the 2-gang box. That way you're guaranteed that the power is dead before you start working in the box.

The alternative is to be extra careful about checking that all receptacles/switches are dead when you go to work on them.

[Rob Russell]

2 circuits in a box is not a problem, in some places like kitchens it is actually required.

Why do you say that?

[David G Baker]

I agree 100% with Rob on the 2-pole breaker if you are going to put the two circuits in one box. Cosmetically putting the two circuits in one box makes sense.
Two circuits in one box in a kitchen is frequently done but I have never heard of it being required.

[Matt Meiser]

The breakers are nowhere near each other in the panel so combining them on a 2-pole wouldn't be easy, plus it turns out one is a 20A circuit and one is 15A. The 20A is the same one our water softener is on in the basement--haven't quite figure THAT one out, but whatever, its not easily changed. I got everything moved into a double box. Due to some bracing in the wall it had to go closer to the floor thanthe rest of the outlets but its done and I have the first coat of mud on the area where the wall used to be. If I can sneak a few minutes in the morniing to sand I might be able just about it get it finished tomorrow.

[Chris Friesen]

Why do you say that?

In Canada kitchens can be wired 2 ways: with multiwire 15A circuits
such that the top and bottom receptacles are on separate circuits, or with 20A circuits with both receptacles on one circuit.

The 20A option is relatively new, so most existing kitchens have dual-circuit kitchen receptacles. However, they're required to be on a double-pole breaker or have the breaker handles tied together so both will be de-energized if either one trips.

[Brian Effinger]

I was going to say wire up a single duplex outlet with both circuits (you would have to break the tab between the terminals), but since you said they are two different currents, I'd now say go with a double box and two duplex outlets. Or, I think you can get covers for double boxes with one side cut out and the other blank. I don't think that they make outlets with a 15a & a 20a side.

[Rob Russell]

In Canada kitchens can be wired 2 ways: with multiwire 15A circuits
such that the top and bottom receptacles are on separate circuits, or with 20A circuits with both receptacles on one circuit.

The 20A option is relatively new, so most existing kitchens have dual-circuit kitchen receptacles. However, they're required to be on a double-pole breaker or have the breaker handles tied together so both will be de-energized if either one trips.

FYI, it's a requirement in the US that the kitchen counter receptacles be GFCI-protected. You can't do a multiwire circuit and GFCI-protect it, so it would mean running (4) conductors + EGC to each duplex receptacle if you wanted (2) circuits to feed each duplex receptacle.

[Chris Padilla]

You can't do a multiwire circuit and GFCI-protect it, so it would mean running (4) conductors + EGC to each duplex receptacle if you wanted (2) circuits to feed each duplex receptacle.

Yep, I learned that one the hard way...had to pull a second neutral! :mad:

[Art Mulder]

The breakers are nowhere near each other in the panel so combining them on a 2-pole wouldn't be easy, plus it turns out one is a 20A circuit and one is 15A. The 20A is the same one our water softener is on in the basement--haven't quite figure THAT one out,

Well you're already finished... I was going to suggest that you could put a box down low on the wall, just about the baseboard, with a plate over it, to "hide" one of the circuits. With the table or whatever in front of it it'll almost never be noticed.

I do suggest, though, that you now make the time to map out the entire electric panel and write it up on a chart/spreadsheet to hang on the wall beside the panel. I did this when we first moved in, and have referred to it many times.

(And you aren't the first to wonder just what the heck the electrician/architect/builder was thinking when they wired your home. I have the entire second floor of my house -- 3 bedrooms, and two bathrooms -- on ONE double-pole breaker. Whenever I want to do some electrical work upstairs I have to run an extension cord from the main floor up the stairs. Argh.)

[Matt Meiser]

Actually Art, our house is a modular--built like a stick built house, but in a factory in Pennsylvania. And, while crawling around the attic to run alarm wiring I actually found the electrical plan for the house. For the most part it is right, but I'm not sure how they tied the outlet for the softener in (its in the basement and I'm pretty sure they didn't truck that in, or at least not in solid form.) And in case anyone is wondering, it has always been a 20A circuit as far as I can tell because it was wired with 12ga.