Shop ideas?

[James Carmichael]

LOML has laid down the law that my "shop" will once again be the domain of motor vehicles. So I am now seeking ideas for a shop. I have a large, but fan-shaped lot. The city will allow anything up to 10x12 anywhere on the lot, however, larger than that requires a permit and must be at least 20' from the back of the lot and 5' from the sides. This will put me right next to the house, unless I use the space LOML says is reserved for her future swimming pool.

Another option would be building onto the back of the garage, but I expect that will require a permit and the homeowner's association will likely have something to say, it will probably have to be brick, so were talking $$$ there.

[JayStPeter]

How about 2 10x12 sheds "temporarily" connected together?

[Rob Russell]

What about using a back corner area of the lot for your shop, with the proviso that you include a section for pool pump and other supporting equipment, chemical storage, etc. You'll need power for all the pool stuff, so running a big (150 amp) subpanel to the shed gives you power for both the shop and pool.

If you're smart about it, you could design a 1 1/2 story shop with an 8' overhang along 1 side that could be used as a screened in "pool patio" with lumber storage overhead.

[Gary Whitt]

Build a 10x12 building (with 10 foot walls!) 4 feet behind the garage.
The high walls will give you ample attic storage.
Later, place a four foot wide "temporary" roof over this 4 ft. open area.
Use this 4 ft. space for lumber storage, pool equip. storage, etc.

I have not lived in a neighborhood for 11 years now. I refuse to because of "neighborhood associations".
I don't see how anyone could live in one where a group of outsiders can dictate what you can and can't put on your own property.

[Jim Becker]

It seems that no matter how you approach this, "realistically", you're going to get involved with the permit process, so don't let that limit your options. In fact, that can be a good thing should you get into a resale situation someday. Rob's idea about combining the shop function with certain things practical for the future pool is also a good one...and an excellent excuse to have a bathroom available "in the shop". Look at this as an opportunity, rather than a hassle!

[Brian Austin]

I'm in the finishing stages of a 'permit' shop myself (14x24 in a sideyard). It's a crappy process but Jim is right on when he says that it will add value to the house. If we sold today, we'd probably get what we paid on the shop in addition to the house value. A year from now will be even better.

There are a lot of guys building their own shops here. Personally, I didn't have the time for it. I bought a Tuff Shed building, pre-built at their local facility and assembled on site in a day. Solid construction, with 2x4 construction on 16" centers, windows, skylights, two doors (including the double door), and a shingled roof. Total cost was about $7,500. I had to put down a foundation first and had it wired and painted to match the house afterward.

The permit process sucks. There are no hard and fast rules that these guys look up on site. One inspector will tell you one thing and another will say the opposite (btdt). It depends on their mood, whether they're behind schedule and what they had for lunch. Doing it all over again, I'd hire a GC to handle the crap and sign off on the finished project. I'd pay well for it, too, knowing what I know now.

Take your time, do the research and be prepared for setbacks if they come up. It's not the end of the world if you fail an inspection but probably means more money and definitely more time.

[Wes Bischel]

James,

I'd go with Jim on this one - just figure on getting the permit. It will open up the possibilities and most likely make the end result what you want versus a compromise.

I built a detached garage a while ago (24' x 24' and yes it's too small :rolleyes: ). I did run into a few glitches with the inspectors - written code versus what they wanted. As Brian said, it is a pain to deal with different inspectors, but if you get them on "your side" it makes life easier. Plus, being polite and respectful makes their day go better as well - not something they run into in the construction trade too often. :eek:

Wes

[James Carmichael]

Well, thanks for the input, guys. Guess a real shop will have to wait, just don't have the funds to put out for something that extravagant (to me) right now, we're still getting back on feet after a bout of unemployment for LOML that nearly caused us to have to sell, anyway.

I hear ya on the inspectors, Brian. We bought our current home 2 years ago, I swore after attending the two closings that my next (and last) home would be built by me on my family's ranch, no code compliance, no realtors, and no mortgage! Buying or building a home in the city is an exercise in BOHICA (Bend Over, Here It Comes Again!).

[Rob Russell]

Inspectors get a bum rap. If you go into a building project expecting inspection problems, expecting hassles from any inspectors you deal with, expecting {you fill in the blank} - you'll likely get what you expect.

I dealt with all the inspections for our addition (foundation through Certificate of Occupancy) and only had 1 thing to deal with that passed on a subsequent inspection, and that was combined with another inspection they were out to do anyway.




"...I hear ya on the inspectors, Brian. ... I swore ... that my next (and last) home would be built by me ... no code compliance ..."



I frankly feel that's a dumb attitude to take with your family's safety. Codes exist for safety reasons.

You want to build on family property? Great.
You want to build it yourself to save money? Great.
You want to build it yourself so you have total control over the end product? Great.
You want to build it yourself and you end up with no mortgage? Great. Go for it and more power to you. No mortgage sounds sweet.
You want to build it yourself and ignore the codes because it's too much of a hassle to get things inspected? I just feel that's a poor decision.

For example, I consider myself to be more knowledgeable about wiring than most homeowners. The thing I failed inspection on was firestop caulking between the floors during my electrical rough-in inspection. Makes sense to me as to why it's needed and it's written right in the code. The inspector caught it and red-flagged the inspection. Because I'd been dealing with them as real people, just out to do their job and help protect me - they said that they would check that item at the insulation inspection. They could have been jerks and made me fix that, while holding up all work until that item was reinspected. They didn't.

Now - I know there are some inspectors out there who are too big for their britches, some have their panties all would up because the idiot before you got them all riled up, and some just don't know diddley about what they're inspecting. Can't help that.

Starting a project with the attitude that you're going to have those folks to deal with almost guarantees that you will.

Working with those folks is generally easier and more productive than fighting them.

I failed an inspection because there was something that I didn't know was needed. The inspectors I dealt with were great, partly because I took the upfront step of talking with them before we started building to find out what their hot buttons were and what things were really important to them. I little bit of time on your part of front can really make the long-term project go easier. It also helps if you can establish a rapport with a given inspector and use him/her to do your project.

Bottom line - ignoring codes may sound like a way to get off easy. That's not the route I'd go.

I would find one inspector to deal with and, even if it means delaying an inspection a couple of days, stick with that 1 guy/gal. Worked for me.



Good luck with getting a shop built. You might consider stick building something yourself. You could save a lot of money doing it and could apply that knowledge to when you do decide to build on your family's land.

Rob

[Thomas Canfield]

You might check with the planning and zoning committee again taking your plans and lot information. I built a shop about 2 years ago and thought I was restricted to the 25' setback from the rear property line. When I went to the planning and zoning for a 16'x18' building that I would have had to build on stilts, I found out that the only requirement for outbuildings was 10' from property line (which was already a utility easement) adnd 5' from side lines. It may well be something different there, but I was able to build a 22x24' shop that is already too small, but I am very happy to have as a hobby shop.

[Tim Lindgren]

In Missouri, there is a difference.

While in the process of building my new house, I asked the county about a out building for a shop, and the answer was real simple. If it needs a foundation - it needs a permit. Pole Barns are popular because they dont "require" a foundation even though some people opt to put them in... to support the floor. Everywhere is different I guess, but the permit cost here was something like $300 plus a set of plans.

A word about inspectors... if you have a question during a DIY project... just call them. They are often very easy to talk too, and creating a positive repport with them early on really does ease the tention with it comes to the inspection stage.

I personally don't consider an inspection a "test". Really, It's a sanity check. Yes, for the most part you do the job correctly. But I know I miss things all the time. When an inspector happens to pop-in on the job, I'm gratful when he points out areas that are not up to spec - and usually has a detailed explaination why it "has" to be the way they say.

[Bart Leetch]

This really isn't very hard to understand. If your not able to build a shop at this time. Explain to the LOYL that automobiles are painted & sealed against weather & as such designed to set outside. If they keep encroaching on your shop space they will be used as mobile tool bases. Then just inside the large door build a wall that can be removed when you sell the house. This will insure the cars stay outside. :) Make sure that she understands that you need this room for your hobby just as she needs what ever room she has for her hobby.

[James Carmichael]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Rob, but if I want to hear a sermon, I'll go to church.

[Frank Pellow]

I agree with what Rob has said in his RANT.

Throughout the process of getting a permit for my workshop and the subsequent inspections, I have only encountered enthusiastic and helpful people. My building is definately better because of the rules and the advise that I followed.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Rob, but if I want to hear a sermon, I'll go to church.

But you well seldom get as good advise at church (any church).

[Bart Leetch]

I always thought it depended on what kind of advice you want to receive where you went to get it. For shop advice you go to people that know about shops. For spiritual advice to the church of your choice. :) :D

[Andy Haney]

I feel your pain. My wife insists on parking her car in the garage each night, resulting in my working with mobile tools. Set-up and tear down takes a lot of time away from real woodworking. Maybe telling your wife about my pain will help in some way to get her to change her mind ??? I wish I had enough yard to build a worthwhile shop (SWMBO would support that), but I also enjoy what little yard we have.

Some day...

Andy haney

[Greg Mann]

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Rob, but if I want to hear a sermon, I'll go to church.
James,
Rob puts more time and energy into his responses than any of us and, quite frankly, the advice he gives is invaluable. I've learned more about circuitry from his posts than I could get from any book. You asked for advice, don't shoot the messenger when it isn't what you want to hear.

Greg

[Dan Mages]

They want 20 feet from the lot line!! I only needed five feet from my rear lot line including the utility easement and three feet from the side lot. I just hope the comrade inspectors from the politburo dont raise thier typical antics when I have my shed inspections. During my kitchen and bath redo, the plumbing inspector insisted on having the electrician at my house AFTER he showed up so he can verify that the whirlpool tub functions properly. This costed be about $100 in additional labor fees by having the electrician come out and making the plumber sit around waiting. He then insited that I place an access panel on the drain side of the tub. I have talked to numerous plumbers and contractors and nobody can figure out what he was thinking. When I was calling around for quotes for the concrete work on my new shed, I had several companies tell me that they will not bid because they do not want to deal with my cities inspectors.

2 bits.

Dan

[Rob Russell]

They want 20 feet from the lot line!! I only needed five feet from my rear lot line including the utility easement and three feet from the side lot. I just hope the comrade inspectors from the politburo dont raise thier typical antics when I have my shed inspections. During my kitchen and bath redo, the plumbing inspector insisted on having the electrician at my house AFTER he showed up so he can verify that the whirlpool tub functions properly. This costed be about $100 in additional labor fees by having the electrician come out and making the plumber sit around waiting. He then insited that I place an access panel on the drain side of the tub. I have talked to numerous plumbers and contractors and nobody can figure out what he was thinking. When I was calling around for quotes for the concrete work on my new shed, I had several companies tell me that they will not bid because they do not want to deal with my cities inspectors.

2 bits.

Dan

There are times when it is appropriate to say to an inspector - "I want to see the code that you're using to backup that statement." At least in Connecticut, they would need to show you the national code, or state/local amendments, that they are using to backup a statement. There are also times when it is appropriate to go over an inspector's head, to the head inspector, and basically say "this guy/gal is making a statement which I don't agree with/understand and he/she is refusing to provide the applicable code section to backup their statement."

That's about the only way to deal with "loose cannon" inspectors.

[Dan Mages]

There is also an old expression, you can be right, and you can be dead right. I can complain to the inspector's office, or the mayor, but i doubt that it will go anywhere and lead to reprisals from the inspectors on future inspections.

[Bart Leetch]

You could ask for the written code & explain to the inspector that sometimes it helps you understand things better if you can read it for your self. This may help make the inspector feel like your not attacking him personally.