using a card scraper - is this good?

[Mike Gager]

here is the shavings i got with 10 strokes from a card scraper. is this what im looking for?

113024

also heres some pics of a scraper jig i made. its just a 2x4 with a hole in the middle for a bolt that i threaded through and 4 screws holding the edge of the scraper. seems to work good

113025
113026

[Hank Knight]

Mike,

You're getting fine shavings, not dust; so you 're doing good! Keep it up.

Hank

[Ken Werner]

Mike, your shavings look great, but remember, it's the surface you leave, not the shavings you make that counts.

[Mike Gager]

thanks guys, can you give some idea what i need to look for as far as the surface?

[Phillip Pattee]

As long as your shavings continue to look like that you are doing fine. When the edge starts to fail the shavings will begin to look more ragged, then you will start to get dust. Re sharpen your scraper when your shavings look ragged. Your surface should feel like glass.

[Rob Young]

Clever idea on the holder. I've gone back to just hand-holding mine although it does get tiring.

The surface should look and feel glass smooth. If you hold a light at a raking angle you can see how the scraper is progressing. I started using a card scraper just a few months ago as a way of knocking off milling marks instead of sanding. Wow, makes all the difference in the world!

[Derek Cohen]

Mike

This is what you are looking to achieve ... keep in mind that this is only for hard woods.

On Jarrah ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/PreparingACabinetScraper_html_1a4e4011.jpg

My article on preparing cabinet scrapers: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/PreparingACabinetScraper.html

Note:

(1) The larger the burr, the weaker it will be, but also the larger the shaving it will take.

(2) You can use a coarser edge with a larger burr for removal of glue and as the equivalent of a jack plane.

(3) For fine, smoothing, prepare the edge of the steel as you would your smoother's blade.

(4) A curved blade (e.g. when you push) will leave fine scollops in the surface. For a flat surface, it is better to pull the blade as this limits the curvature.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan Karachio]

Derek thank you so much for this. Finally, something written clearly and easy to understand. I wish more people in this business would appreciate the basic steps and not adding a hundred sidelines on esoteric points! I digress!

One question please. I have seen a few articles showing how you can get a burr on both sides of the card - meaning one edge can have two burrs. Is this really feasible? Too much for the beginner?

[Mike Gager]

when you burnish the edge you do it at like a 10-15 degree angle, just do the same thing on the other side and youll have 2 edges

[Derek Cohen]

One question please. I have seen a few articles showing how you can get a burr on both sides of the card - meaning one edge can have two burrs. Is this really feasible? Too much for the beginner?

Hi Dan

Pleased the article was helpful.

I often prepare 8 (eight!) sides per cabinet scraper.

This is made up of the 4 ends, and then both sides of the blade.

It is not much extra work to do, just create a hook on both sides instead of just one. If the hook is small, and you just hold the edge not run a finger along it, then you are unlikely to cut yourself. When I feel a fresh edge, I can feel a slight wire. It is not like a saw or knife blade.

I use the narrow ends especially when I want to avoid the blade bowing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ken Casser]

I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I've been struggling a bit with sharpening my scraper (a new adventure), and had read an article, also on In The Woodshop, by Howard Ruttan. Much of the information is close enough to Derek Cohen's, however, there is one point I need clarification on. Of course, I'll find out if it works when I get home tonight, but anyway, maybe someone has a comment.

With regard to burnishing, Mr. Ruttan's article states that one should put the scraper in a vise, then burnish the edge 4 to 8 strokes with the burnisher at 90 degrees to the face of the scraper, then burnish two strokes at 5-10 degrees to the edge. Mr. Cohen shows us that we should lay the scraper flat on a table and 'Draw the edge', then 'Turn the Burr' similar to Mr. Ruttan's '5-10 degree' angle. They both seem to get great shavings while all I'm getting is dust. Are these just two approaches to the same problem? Or am I reading something wrong? :confused:

[Prashun Patel]

It is 2 approaches to the same problem. I had my Zen moment with a scraper recently. Once that happens you realize that you can prepare the edge many ways.

I basically clamp mine in a vise, mill file down the edge roughly square, then run a burnisher at roughly 15 degrees until I can feel something with my thumb; I don't draw and roll; I just roll. Works fine for me.

Personally, I wouldn't bother trying to get 2 burrs on each edge if yr having probs. I prepare a single burr each edge, so I can keep flipping and keep my fingers cool.

A honed edge WILL produce a smoother surface, but I've found that you can compensate for this by varying your touch. That's something you can only learn with practice. But I haven't been practicing that long, and it came to me - so I KNOW anyone can do it.

[Ken Casser]

Shawn, I appreciate the encouragement! So, you don't burnish straight on the edge at all? Can you tell me how much pressure you put on the burnishing rod? Roughly how many strokes at 15 degrees? I've been putting as much pressure as I can, straight on the edge for 6 strokes, and then 2 strokes at 5-10 degrees, and it ain't working for me.

[Richard Dooling]

When I started with a card scraper I was not doing the initial setup right and I either got dust or nothing. I found I needed to pay more attention to getting the steel edge really square.

There is a handy Veritas jig to hold the file at a good 90 to the scraper but it can also be shop made. Item 05M07.01 at Lee Valley

[Ken Casser]

Thanks, Richard. I think my edge is square, but it's hard for me to see with my eyesight. I'll pay closer attention tonight. Actually, I made a jig similar to Ralph Brendler's, but I widened the part where the scraper does the work, and I lay it flat in my vise so that the vise grips the file or stone, and the jig. This way I have a flat, horizontal surface to put the scraper on and run it against the file or stone similar to the way an edge belt sander works. (I'll take a photo tonight if interested, although since your system is working fine I don't suppose you'd need it) My point is, I should be getting a pretty true edge, but it's worth studying more carefully.:)

[Richard Dooling]

I'm not familiar with that jig but you have the idea - by jig or by hand the edge needs to be a good 90. For rougher work I just leave off after filing and establish the burr. For finer work I stone the edge.

You may be putting too much pressure on the edge which, I think could curl too large a burr too far over. Try refiling the edge and lighten up on your application of the burnisher. You might also want to try using the flat of a chisel nistead of a round burnisher if that's what you're using now. Some people find it easier to control.

I also agree that you should draw the edge first.

[Prashun Patel]

I don't draw it at 90. Only at 15 deg. And I don't push straight across. Let me see if you can picture this: I start at one end of the scraper with the burnisher near the handle, then as I move across the edge, I slide the burnisher down, so by the far edge of the scraper, I'm 1/2 way between the tip of the burnisher and the handle. I hold the burnisher by the handle with 1 hand and by the tip with the other.

This kind of pushes the burr over. I push with roughly 75% of my might. If I were to slip, I'd probably cut myself on the scraper - that hard - but I wouldn't fall over.

What's yr burnisher? I had better results when I switched from a screw driver to a real rod burnisher...

[Prashun Patel]

With due respect, I don't use a jig - and I just eyeball it to 90 and it works fine. Is yr mill file good? You'll just be able to FEEL it when the mill file cuts right.

[David Gendron]

Realy good info Derek, we should get this info into the neander wisdom.
thank you!
David

[Kieran Kammerer]

Derek,

For further sharpenings, I assume you don't go back to the Shaptons unless the face surfaces of the scrapers are no longer shiney. Correct? Thanks, Kieran

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kieren

I don't look at the shine on the edge to determine when it is time to rehone. It is not always easy to see this. Instead I tend to rehone after I have re-burnished the edge about 3 times (and used all available edges on a card).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kieran Kammerer]

Hi Derek,

The shine I was referring to was on the face of card scrapers and not the "working edge". I am looking at it like flattening/polishing the back of a plane blade, once done right, should not need to do it again. Make any sense?

Thanks,

Kieran

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kieren

Same reply. A burnished edge creates a burr. The burr is the blade, and it is the smoothness of the burr that counts.

The scraper burr is created from two surfaces - the face and the edge. Burnishing will deform these, squeezing them until they extend and then roll to form the burr. However you should be starting off with smooth steel. This is different from if you were starting off with coarse, scratched steel, such as from a file.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kieran Kammerer]

Thanks Derek

[Ken Casser]

I'm glad this discussion came back to life. :)

I tried a number of things last night, and still get dust, but I'm getting closer - the dust is in larger bits. :D

Thanks, Shawn, Richard - One of the techniques I tried last night was to move the burnisher as you suggest. I still get a very small burr, but I'm working on it. Now it sounds like you use more pressure than Richard, but I can see what he is saying as far as maybe I'm pushing too hard and causing the burr to curl back on itself. I'll play with that one. BTW, I am using a round burnisher.

Other points - I need the jig because I can't do things by sight - same reason I can't putt. But I did find that I got different results depending on which direction I slid the scraper against the file.

Here's my jig for jointing the edges, and that's my burnisher in the background:

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I think I'd have trouble removing enough material with the file in that position.

But I do think yr prob is the burr.

Contrary to above posts, I believe that the SMOOTHNESS of the edge only affects the finish quality of the surface - it has not (in my experience) affected the ability to either pull a burr or make shavings.

Since my method is the simplest - and I know it works, I humbly suggest you try to make it work that way (fine mill file no jig card clamped in vise, then push burnisher at slight angle over the edge. The angle is not critical. Every 3 strokes, pluck the edge. If you can feel the burr, you GOT it right). Once you get THAT, the refinements the other guys suggest will only make your surface better - but the 1st step is getting the FEEL for the burr and the FEEL for the scrape.


One other thing I thought of: Are you scraping right? The easiest way to get a shaving is to do it on the PUSH stroke and to curve the blade pretty goodly convex with yr thumbs. Again, once you get the feel for this, you'll quickly realize how to alter yr touch and direction to really customize the results...

[Derek Cohen]

Shawn

With respect, the method you describe is really only suited for coarse scraping.

A filed edge is a rough edge. That is OK for removing glue or, with a large burr, taking thick shavings ala a jack plane.

Pushing the card and giving it a lot of thumb pressure to create curve and adds to the above. This simply makes the shaving deeper ... but it also scallops the surface of the wood.

Ideally, if your aim is a finished surface, you want a way to keep the surface as flat as possible. You want two features: a flat and smooth burr, and to pull the cabinet scraper towards yourself since this will reduce the amount of curvature in the blade.

Ken, you may just be creating too much burr. Or the the burr may be at the wrong angle (aim for 5-10 degrees). I suspect the latter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ken Casser]

Thank you, Shawn. It does take some work to do the filing, but if I did it freehand I don't think my edge would be straight or close to 90 degrees. But, I'll try it.

I am getting a burr, but clearly it's not shaped correctly, or, as you state, I might not be using the scraper correctly (another good point). So, if I can feel any burr, it's enough? Do I stop burnishing as soon as a burr is raised?

More things to try - I pull the scraper towards me, and don't curve it. I thought that curving it would give me dips in the wood surface whereas keeping the scraper pretty flat gives me a flat surface. I'll try your method. BTW, in the original post, the curvature of the scraper in his homemade scraper holder seemed really radical to me. Is that the way it should look, with that much bend?

Thanks for your help, everyone!:)

[Ken Casser]

Derek, you're up late? or early?:D

I think I understand Shawn's point - I should figure out how to get some shavings before worrying about the finer points. I understand that a honed edge and straight burr would give finer results. I think I just need to get a better feeling of what I'm doing. As mentioned before, I may well have gone past the point and have turned the burr under too much. I'll try more tonight.:)

[Prashun Patel]

Derek - I totally agree with you; didn't mean to suggest the 'down and dirty' was a replacement for a properly prepared edge - just that it might make it easier to learn on....

Ken, try PUSHING. Yes, it should be quite a bit convex. Yes, you'll get convave sections in the surface. However, you can compensate for this by working back and forth; Further, if yr not removing a lot of material, the 'divots' - if you can even call em that - not always visible.

FWIW, when I started, I could not for the life of me PULL shavings flat like yr trying to do. I was only able to do it by pushing and flexing the blade (and I was burnishing with a screwdriver). Once you get the feel - and it comes in a Zen moment - you'll be able to pull shavings as well - and how to do it sideways as well !

[David Keller NC]

Ken - With respect to what Derek said, it is true that most filed edges will be considerably rougher than most stoned edges on scrapers, but this in not universally true. There are such things as extremely fine files, and when the edge is draw-filed, it is exceptionally smooth, and only an 8000 grit water stone is likely to get them any smoother.

That said, however, the file you're using appears to be a Mill Bastard file, which generally leaves a "rough 'n ready" edge. Stoning is appropriate in this case.

What I'm going to suggest is to back up a couple of steps. Burnishing isn't simple, easy and quick, and some guys take a while to get the hang of it. Specifically, it's actually possible to put way too much pressure on the edge, and draw out so much of a burr that it (the burr) just snaps off as soon as the tool's shown to the wood.

I suggest that you don't burnish the edge - just concentrate on getting one long edge of the scraper straight, square, and polished (both on the edge and the adjacent faces). Then put it to wood - if the edges are indeed 90 degrees to the face of the scraper, you can most certainly draw shavings with it, albiet small ones.

Once you've done this, very lightly burnish the edge at 90 degrees to the scraper's faces. This will give you a very small, flat burr. Putthe scraper to the wood again. You will notice that it requires more force to push the scraper, and the shavings that it yields will be larger and thicker than with no burnishing.

Then very lightly burnish that same edge except tilt the burnisher about 5 degrees or so towards one face, then repeat and tilt it to the opposite face. Put it to wood again.

By doing a process like this, you will quickly find out whether you've "over-burnished" the edge, created too much hook angle, or whether you weren't drawing a burr at all. That's unlikely - every beginner I've ever coached on this was pulling a huge burr that was extremely fragile, and it just snaps off on hard wood, leaving a dull scraper and a frustrated Woodworker in its wake.

[Ken Casser]

Just noticed a 'page 3'. Thank you, David!

This is all very interesting and I'm having fun learning this process. I'll take your advice and will back up a bit and take it a step at a time. I look forward to being able to tell the difference between an edge fresh from the Mill Bastard file vs one off an 8000 grit water stone. :D I was hoping to obtain some good results without further investment, but we'll see where this process leads me. I originally just wanted to use the scraper to remove some old finish that my stripper didn't loosen before staining an old table I'm refinishing, but, as with many things, the scraper has taken on a life of its own. I just hope I get some staining done soon!:D

[Jake Helmboldt]

I realize I'm a little late to the party, but I've been struggling a bit with sharpening my scraper (a new adventure), and had read an article, also on In The Woodshop, by Howard Ruttan. Much of the information is close enough to Derek Cohen's, however, there is one point I need clarification on. Of course, I'll find out if it works when I get home tonight, but anyway, maybe someone has a comment.

With regard to burnishing, Mr. Ruttan's article states that one should put the scraper in a vise, then burnish the edge 4 to 8 strokes with the burnisher at 90 degrees to the face of the scraper, then burnish two strokes at 5-10 degrees to the edge. Mr. Cohen shows us that we should lay the scraper flat on a table and 'Draw the edge', then 'Turn the Burr' similar to Mr. Ruttan's '5-10 degree' angle. They both seem to get great shavings while all I'm getting is dust. Are these just two approaches to the same problem? Or am I reading something wrong? :confused:

Ken, I can't speak to how the two techniques compare, but one thing to make sure of is that you have prepped the edges of your scrapers. They must be honed first since from the factory many have very fine ridges, nicks, etc. You'll never burnish a proper hook with those remaining. You may already be past that point, but I wanted to make sure you were aware. It took me several attempts before I took a close look and realized the edges were not as smooth as I thought.:o

[Ken Casser]

Thanks, Jake. I'm going to spend the weekend smoothing out the faces and then the edges. They look pretty good to me, but the surfaces do have scratches on them. I guess those scratches will leave marks on the wood similar to what happens when using a worn surface planer blade (little ridges). It should be fun. :D

[Peter Scoma]

Question. Are any card scrapers better than others? What I mean is, will a LN card hold a burr longer than a shop fox card or are they all basically the same? I know they come in varying thicknesses but was wondering if all card scrapers are essentially created equal.

I get better results from a hock blade in my 80 so im thinking quality may play a role in these tools.

PS

[David Keller NC]

Steel matters in almost any tool, card scrapers included. If the card is too soft, it'll be really easy to roll a burr, but the burr will be very weak and will collapse quickly. If the steel's too hard or too grainy, then it will be difficult to roll a consistent burr, and it will have a tendency to snap off in a ragged manner.

I can't speak to the relative quality differences between L-N, Hock, Crown, etc..., but I did get a set of cheapies once that were way too soft - I wound up cutting them up and re-hardening them for scratch stocks.

[Ken Casser]

Just checking in to say - AHA! :D And, Thank you!

I've been working much too hard on this thing. I did as David suggested and backed up and took it step by step, testing the edge each time. I also changed my scraping technique to bending the scraper a bit and pushing instead of pulling. What a difference! I'm not all the way there yet, but I'm figuring it out. I found that by doing this, I was starting to get shavings even when I could hardly feel a burr at all. I will say I tried this technique on poplar and maple, and the surface still needs sanding afterwards, but maybe as my 'burr building' improves, the smoothness of the surface will improve as well. Or, I may just be better off doing this on harder woods.

Anyway, I think I'm on the right track. Once again, SMC came to the rescue!:):)