Chemistry in New Treated Lumber

[Jack Young]

Someone knows something about this, but it's not me. The Bull Run Lumber folk and HD as well are now selling majorly galvanized hardware for screwing or bolting the treated lumber with the new copper-oriented treatment process now required by the EPA. Aluminum is apparently 'out' entirely as it is totally dissolved in short order by the new treatment. Stainless steel is apparently o.k. I'm also told that framers are messed up because the nails for their nail-guns won't work either.

Anyway, if the new treatment is that corrosive, what are the implications for tools which work the wood, such as bits, blades, aluminum bases on jigsaws, etc. Is washing necessary, and, if so, with what? Theoretically, the new stuff is better for humans than arsenic, but what about tools?

Jack Young

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Jack

I cannot answer your questions, but I have some comments to add. We are building a small deck for the swimming pool, and I had to buy some of this stuff. Well, I didn't have to buy it, but I thought it would be convenient. I can't say much about the new treatment process, but the quality of the wood is even worse than I remembered, and I went to a local lumberyard which usually has better quality than the Borg.

From now on I am going back to the old ways and using species that are noted for their water resistance. I already put black locust 4x4 posts in for the deck, and I should have carried that through for the joist structure. From now on it is species like black locust, white oak, and sassafrass, all of which are local to me and available at the sawmill.

Bill

[Jack Young]

Bill-

Thanks for your reply. I envy you being so close to a reliable sawmill. I considered Epi, the tropical iron-wood, which is also quite water resistant, but it weighs more than iron, eats tools alive and is too beautiful to paint over. Not only is the quality of treated lumber lagging, it seems to come sopping wet, at least to the big boxes like Home Depot.

Jack

[Greg Mann]

Bill-

Thanks for your reply. I envy you being so close to a reliable sawmill. I considered Epi, the tropical iron-wood, which is also quite water resistant, but it weighs more than iron, eats tools alive and is too beautiful to paint over. Not only is the quality of treated lumber lagging, it seems to come sopping wet, at least to the big boxes like Home Depot.

Jack
I've heard conflicting reports regarding how hard Ipe is on tools. The way it sounds is that it mills nicely with carbide but it must be sharp. Maybe variable speed helps. I plan on picking some up and getting familiar with it, make some modest outdoor stuff, because I need to replace a deck sometime soon and I really don't like treated lumber much, old or new. What you saying is only making me more hopeful that I will like the Ipe. I hear the slivers are nasty, though.

Greg

[Jamie Buxton]

Jack --
Yes, the new ACQ-treated lumber is more corrosive in the long run than the old stuff. The corrosion happens over the course of years. Your tools are not at hazard. ... well, maybe if you leave ACQ sawdust on them for years, and keep it wet for most of that time, then you might have a problem....

As to being wet, yes, that's true. The stuff is considered construction lumber, and furthermore the chemical-injection process is water-based. On the positive side, wet lumber is considerably easier to cut than dry lumber.

While it is supposed to last a long time, treated lumber looks and feels quite ratty, IMHO. Painting it only makes it look like painted ratty stuff. I use it only for structural stuff which will be moslty hidden from sight. For instance, I'd use it for the joists of a deck, but use nicer stuff for the decking itself and for the railings.

[John Christiansen]

I've heard conflicting reports regarding how hard Ipe is on tools. The way it sounds is that it mills nicely with carbide but it must be sharp. Maybe variable speed helps. I plan on picking some up and getting familiar with it, make some modest outdoor stuff, because I need to replace a deck sometime soon and I really don't like treated lumber much, old or new. What you saying is only making me more hopeful that I will like the Ipe. I hear the slivers are nasty, though.

Greg

Greg,

IPE is an extremly dense wood, but density has absolutely nothing to do with abrasiveness. Actually because of it's density, I find that it mills far better/nicer than most of the woods that we use more frequently. Crisper edges, smoother cuts, etc.


Work with some Teak or some of the other silica laden exotics sometime and you will see what abrasive wood is really like.

Yep splinters are minute and like needles, but to be honest, I don't recall that I had any of them get festered up like I have with other woods like walnut or especially treated wood.

I for one absolutely love working with IPE and if someone asked me to build them an IPE deck, I would jump at the opportunity. But I know I would ache bad at the end of every day. The stuff weighs like concrete.

Go to my web site. there is some picnic table stuff there to look at and a few good picture of how beautiful this wood can be. But like any wood you'll get some boreing looking stuff too.

When we first started building the picnic tables, we purchased a brand new Dewalt miter saw, built all of the regular tables and the octogon ones with the blade that came on the saw and have still not removed the blade for sharpening. Don't need to, it still cuts just fine.

[JayStPeter]

Yeah, I'm curious about this too. Luckily my house was built with the old stuff. They're still here nailing the new houses together with nail guns. We'll see what happens over time.
I was told that regular old galvanized would only last a couple of months in the new stuff. You need the new treatment hardware. It's significantly more expensive, that's for sure.
I would definitely be nervous if my house was built a few months later. But, I am going to build a deck next year, so I'm interested in the answers to the original question (if anyone knows).

Jay

[Jack Young]

Guys,

Thanks so much for the ideas and experience. And good to know that the base of my Festool jigsaw isn't going to evaporate anytime soon. The thread has seemed to turn a bit to Epi, which is of great interest to me, so it's good to know that it doesn't eat blades, etc., quite like I thought.

I read that, say, for decking, one can use 1" Epi where 2" material in pine, or standard softer stuff, is required, which almost evens out the cost. It weathers out to a gray, and is otherwise in need of some annual treatment, as with anything else except the new composites. On my current project, I have to pretty much go with the Cabot Mission stain to match the siding on the house, which would obscure the graining and attractiveness of Epi. I can get by fine with rougher stuff. Then comes major deck repairs and new decking on the back and side of the house. That's quite another matter.

Jack

[Dan Mages]

This is a major concern that is being handled by tool compaines and parts manufacturers. I use a Stanley Bostitch framing naler I have recently seen new "thickcoat" nails. You can read up on their marketing mumbo jumbo at the link below.

http://www.bostitch.com/default.asp?TYPE=STATICLEFT&PAGE=thickcoatgalvanization.htm&LEFT=left_innovation.htm

Dan

[Kent Cori]

I too have read that ACQ treated lumber is corrosive and that either galvanized or stainless steel screws are required. My concern with galvanized screws (or anything that is galvanized for that matter) is that the coating provides the corrosion protection. If that coating is even scratched all the way through, the underlying steel will rust as if there were no coating at all. It doesn't take much to scratch a screw (slipped drill bit, dropping it on concrete, incomplete coverage when manufactured, etc.) I'm an engineer and routinely specify steel equipment that has to reside in corrosive atmospheres. I never use galvanized steel because of these problems with the exception of chain link fencing.

I plan to use only stainless screws on this stuff should I have to use it in the future. I'd much rather pay a few bucks extra for the screws and know that they will never corrode. Considering the costs of the rest of the materials and the value of my time spent on a project, skimping on the screws is not an option for me.

[Terry Hatfield]

I'm conducting my own tests. I drove a couple of regular nails 1/2 way into one of the 4 X 4 support posts for my shop addition. I'm interested to see just how long it takes for the nails to rust. Time will tell.

Terry

[Kevin Arceneaux]

Very interesting.

We use truckloads of this type of lumber in the cooling towers at our generating plants and I was not aware of this happening. I contacted the Plant Managers and asked what they used to fasten the wood. The company we get the wood from recommended stainless steel twist nails and that is what we used. Wew!

[Greg Mann]

Greg,

IPE is an extremly dense wood, but density has absolutely nothing to do with abrasiveness. Actually because of it's density, I find that it mills far better/nicer than most of the woods that we use more frequently. Crisper edges, smoother cuts, etc.


Work with some Teak or some of the other silica laden exotics sometime and you will see what abrasive wood is really like.

Yep splinters are minute and like needles, but to be honest, I don't recall that I had any of them get festered up like I have with other woods like walnut or especially treated wood.

I for one absolutely love working with IPE and if someone asked me to build them an IPE deck, I would jump at the opportunity. But I know I would ache bad at the end of every day. The stuff weighs like concrete.

Go to my web site. there is some picnic table stuff there to look at and a few good picture of how beautiful this wood can be. But like any wood you'll get some boreing looking stuff too.

When we first started building the picnic tables, we purchased a brand new Dewalt miter saw, built all of the regular tables and the octogon ones with the blade that came on the saw and have still not removed the blade for sharpening. Don't need to, it still cuts just fine.
John, I saw your picnic tables a while back. I'm a Michigan boy myself and will have to look you up sometime. You may be just the guy to learn from before I tackle my deck.:)

As far as it being boring, nothings more boring than pressure treated stuff, IMHO.

Greg

[Joseph N. Myers]

The following was published in WOOD, Sept 2004 dealing with the above subject::

"New fastener standards for pressure-treated wood

On January 1, 2004, lumber manufacturers stopped making pressure-treated lumber treated with Chromated Copper Arsenate (CCA) for environmental reasons. Today, they treat lumber with a new generation of chemicals - the most common being Amine Copper Quaternary (ACQ).

While safer, ACQ-treated wood has fastener corrosion rates up to three times greater than CCA-treated wood. As a result, manufactures now recommend using hop-dipped galvanized or stainless-steel screw and nails. Manufactures caution against aluminum."

Regards, Joe

[jeremy holloman]

Here in SC we can still get the old stuff, "only" for use in marine applications (docks and such) because apparently it is dangerous to fish and detrimental to the water environment. While I haven't found the old stuff at lumber yards or big boxes, all of the marine supply places here carry it. That is kind of scary, the new stuff is supposed to be safer for kids, etc.. but can kill fish. Now, I haven't actually spoken to the lumber reps about this, so I could have received some bad information, but since I will be needing some pt soon, I have checked at three local marine supply stores and heard the same story.