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brian rohland
03-12-2009, 10:38 AM
i am going to start a quality collection of hand planes.I would like to keep all one brand as long as i am happy with them.I plan on starting with a block plane and a #3 or #4 smoother.probably a smoother first since i like my stanley block,but hate my stanley #4 smoother.I am expecting some diffrent opinions on this,but i am curious what most would recomend.I do genral woodworking as a hobby small tables and dressers mostly.No specefic need other than I enjoy planeing and would like to eliminate as much sanding as possible.also wonder what the advantage is in the bronze over steel in the lie nielson.

george wilson
03-12-2009, 11:00 AM
I don't know that there is any noticable difference in the 2 metals. Bronze is a sort of self lubricating metal is the only thing I can think of. It is also possibly easier to get cast.
I don't know why LN started doing bronze.

Their cast iron planes are malleable iron,so it won't break easily if dropped. Personally,I like the iron LN's better. That's just my choice,of course. Bronze won't rust,if you have that problem in your climate.

Brian Kent
03-12-2009, 11:05 AM
Since you can't go wrong with either brand, do you have an opportunity to put your hands on them?

I went with a LV low angle jack plane over a LN because the shape was better for me and because some people who tried both like the LV better on a shooting board. I am 100% satisfied and so are the LN users.

I have a LN low angle pocket plane and I am also 100% satisfied, as are the owners of LV pocket block planes.

If you cannot put your hands on one locally, choose the one that grabs you aesthetically, buy it, try it, and sell it for almost full cost if it isn't perfect for you.

Have fun!

Jim Koepke
03-12-2009, 11:06 AM
I am curious as to why you are dissatisfied with your Stanley #4.

Also curious as to when it was made.

I have some old Stanley/Bailey #4s that work quite well. I have had some newer ones that were not made as well and did not seem to work as well.

jim

Gary Herrmann
03-12-2009, 11:07 AM
I've got LV planes. My decision was initially price based, but after using a variety of their planes, I'm of the opinion that while the LNs mayb be "better" planes, but I doubt I'd notice a difference in their performance. Maybe the LNs would be more comfortable for long sessions of use, but I'm very happy with the LVs.

I've heard some folks say that one brand or the other didn't feel good in their hands, so I'd recommend trying before you buy if at all possible.

Mike Henderson
03-12-2009, 11:47 AM
There's no reason to stick with one brand. For certain planes, many people prefer the LV (such as the medium shoulder plane) and for other planes, many people prefer the LN (such as the low angle block plane). I would recommend you purchase the planes that work well for you, rather than the one that has a certain name on it. As far as quality, both the LV and LN planes are excellent and have excellent after sale service.

Mike

[I think bronze planes are made and sold primarily because customers like the looks - they don't seem to work any differently than iron planes.]

Rob Luter
03-12-2009, 11:50 AM
I have the LV Low Angle Jack, the Medium Shoulder Plane, and the Small Plow Plane. All three are top notch tools. While I don't own any LN planes, those that I've "road tested" were very nice and I would have been proud to own any of them. My regular user bench planes are all old Stanley/Bailey models save for one Millers Falls Smoother. All were inexpensive but function quite well thanks to proper fettling and sharpening. They're not as pretty as the LV stuff but pretty doesn't make the shavings.

As some have already suggested, you can't go wrong with either brand. Both companies make superb quality tools and have excellent customer service and support.

John Keeton
03-12-2009, 12:18 PM
Bronze has a little more mass than does the cast iron, and I would presume that also enters into the equation as to why some prefer bronze.

As to preferences, although LN makes a quality plane, most of their designs are traditional - i.e., takeoffs of the Stanleys and Baileys. If you like that look and feel, then LNs may be preferable.

For me, I could care less about the aesthetics, and prefer the innovative design features of the LV planes - particularly the LA BU Jack, and the other two in that series. The interchangeability of the blades is a real plus to consider. Although I have tried them, I do not yet own either the smoother or jointer - having bought the other BU smoother from another creeker.

But, like others have said, trying them is the key. Personally, I have gone through several that I have purchased - and then sold. I do not accumulate them as others do, so if they don't fit in with my needs you will see them in the classified forum!

brian rohland
03-12-2009, 12:23 PM
good points. I thought of trying them out first but realy have no practical way.and i don,t know why i was so hell bent on getting the same brand after looking i think i am going with a LN block and a veritas #4. price does have a little to do with that decision. As for my stanley #4 I bought it rencent brand new. I tuned. I have the sole real close to flat sharpened the iron best i can same as block. It still sucks,funny though, it seems to work better if i useit bevel up.

Danny Thompson
03-12-2009, 12:38 PM
I don't see anything wrong with sticking with one brand. It makes life simpler, makes a nice matching set, whatever. It's a personal decision.

Personally, I have mixed and matched and love 'em all.

I don't think you can go wrong either way. That said, here are reasons you might want to pick one over the other.

- Fit and finish of the LNs is marginally better, the LVs are innovative and a little less expensive.

- If you are going for a true #3 or #4, I would go with the Lie-Nielsen line. Their 102 apron block and 60 1/2 adjustable mouth block planes continually get great reviews. Their #3, #4, etc., are very high quality versions of the traditional Stanley Bedrocks.

- If you are open to bevel-up versions of these planes, go with Lee Valley (Veritas). They offer interchangeable blades, some design improvements, and a lower total cost of ownership (if you own more than one of their Smoother, Jack, and Jointer trio).

Have fun.

Ken Werner
03-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Brian, with all due respect, a recently made Stanley No.4 is not going to give you anywhere near the performance, quality, satisfaction of a vintage Stanley. Now either a LN or LV is going to be superb, but you can get excellent use from an old Stanley, equipped with a quality honing on a good blade. Whichever way you go, have fun as you join the rest of us sliding downhill on the slope.

I'm Ken, and I'm a planeaholic....

John Keeton
03-12-2009, 1:41 PM
I'm Ken, and I'm a planeaholic....Confession.... so good for the soul:D

Do you feel better Ken?

Dominic Greco
03-12-2009, 1:42 PM
i am going to start a quality collection of hand planes.I would like to keep all one brand as long as i am happy with them......but hate my stanley #4 smoother.I am expecting some diffrent opinions on this,but i am curious what most would recomend.

Brian,
I really love the new line of LV planes and would love to have a complete stable of them. The same goes for the LNs. But I have some old Bedrocks and Stanleys that work so well, that IMHO it would be wasteful to have duplicates. Actually, I have a bunch of duplicate Stanleys. But that's because I can find them at yards sales and flea markets easily enough!:D

It all depends on what plane I needed and who was offering the best deal at the time I needed it. When I needed a router plane, I looked at the LN and LV. But I went with the LV after I compared the features, reviewsm and tried out both. The same thing with my shoulder plane. I ended up with a LV Large Shoulder Plane (mostly because of the ergonomics).

BUT when I "needed" (i.e: wanted) a heavy smoother a LN came along at a GREAT price. So I got that (I also got a LN 140 for a similarly great price at the same time! :D). So like I said, I have a mix of both. I feel it depends on what kind of job you're looking to do, and what features you like. And if you want new, or prefer old iron.

If I may ask, what type is your No4? I have a Type 15-16 No 4 that is a real sweet heart (no pun intended) to use. Maybe yours just needs some TLC and tune up.

Richard Niemiec
03-12-2009, 1:57 PM
I would suggest that you take each company's products on a case by case basis rather than maintain a brand fetish. Most folks I know own some of both, along with older stanley versions, which with Hock irons, perform very well. Frankly, I use vintage stanleys and bedrocks for my basic bench planes, and buy the LN/LV versions of the more exotic planes, such as bevel up jacks and smoothers; routers, 98/99s, etc.

David Keller NC
03-12-2009, 2:30 PM
Brian - I think you've your answer - both companies have their adherents, and depending on the individual tool, some may prefer a mix/match approach.

My own $0.02 (and worth considerably less that that) is that I simply do not like the looks of the Veritas planes - I find them extremely ugly, primarily because of the shape of the tote and the double tote screws. And I learned a long time ago that it's a false economy to shop based on a few dollars difference for something that will last a lifetime. There is an exception to my (biased) opinion - while I sold my LV low-angle smoother, I kept the LV router plane, and I do like the looks of their newest block plane.

For that reason though, most of my new planes (as opposed to antiques) are Lie-Nielsens.

In regards to the reason Lie-Nielsen offers bronze castings for some of their smaller smoothers, there are several. The biggest one is aesthetics - people like gunmetal, just ask anyone that's been to an antique tool auction and tried to buy a Norris in gunmetal.

They are slightly heavier than the equivalent iron casting, usually about 1/2 lb., which can be an advantage in a smoother and a detriment in a long plane.

They don't rust. In my opinion, this is the reason for paying the extra money for bronze. It's easy to goob up the internal steel parts in the frog adjustment mechanism with cosmoline to prevent rust, but doing that to the plane's sole is a pain, because you need to remove it before use, and wax (which you wouldn't need to remove) is not a terribly effective rust preventative.

Quesne Ouaques
03-12-2009, 3:45 PM
Personally, as a collector, I would not limit myself by brand, but that's a personal decision having nothing to do with quality or function. I salivate over LN planes all the time, but I've only ever bought LV.

I bought the 5 LV planes I have because: (1) They are very comfortable to use, (2) they are uncompromising in quality and craftsmanship and (3) the overall designs and features are outstanding.

But the two different design and marketing philosophies of the companies is what I really find interesting. Tom LN gives the nod to classic Bailey (and other) designs, making incremental modifications to produce a superior product. Rob Lee seems to says, "let's design and build better, more innovative, planes at the highest quality we can for a competitive price." Period. (My quote, not his!)

When I go to the woodworking shows (most recently up in Somerset, NJ), I love to go back and forth between the two booths and compare the competing products from the two companies (the #4s, the jointer planes, the low-angle jacks, etc.) I bought my LVs strictly because I felt they were the best product for what I do. But as a collector, I think it's interesting to have different designs side-by-side. It adds some spice to using and appreciating the products (I do have a large collection of guitars).

FYI - I remember reading somewhere that a bronze casting has more weight than the same casting in ductile iron. Maybe the weight has something to do with the reason for using the material?

Martin Cash
03-12-2009, 5:28 PM
Hi Brian,
Everyone has their preference when it comes to LN and LV.
One thing that appears in reviews over and over again is the consensus that in the bevel down planes Lie Nielsen make the best product and for the bevel up planes one should lean to Lee Valley because of their features and ease of use.
There are plenty of happy woodworkers with this combination of planes who will swear by them.
Best advice as given above, is to go and try them out at a wood show or at a friend or colleague's shop and make up your own mind.
Cheers
MC

Mike Cutler
03-12-2009, 7:01 PM
I'm Ken, and I'm a planeaholic....

Sweet!!!;)

Brian

I have 20 LN planes, so I guess that would qualify me as a collector, or qualify them as a collection???:confused:

Why LN?
I "discovered" LN before I knew about LV, and almost all of them my wife has given me as b'day, xmas, and anniversry presents through the years. ( That's a gloat in itself.:D)
The truth is that LV makes one very nice product, every bit the equal of LN and even though I own a bunch of LN's. I wouldn't hesitate for an instant to buy a LV plane. I like the planes they currently have to offer. You really can't go wrong either way.
It's not a question of LN vs. LV. It's what do you need?

I also have a bunch of old Stanley's and Millers Falls planes, and am also curious as to the problems you are having with your Stanley

Chris Setla
03-12-2009, 9:23 PM
I think this will be my first post on this board, though I have been a member for some time.

There is one thing we're not mentioning here and that is that both Lee Valley and Lie Nielson make wonderful products and NEITHER wants you to keep a tool that does not work for you. Both will happily accept the return of a tool if you find it just does not fit your style of working, or your hands etc.

No.... you cannot drag it behind your pickup truck for seven miles before returning it, but you can feel free to actually use it in the shop for a few weeks before making up your mind. I've never had to return a tool as I research rather carefully. I've actually adjusted my working height to accommodate the slightly different tote angle of the LV planes. Should I wish to use a more traditional Stanley shaped tool, I'd just toss a couple of anti-fatigue mats on the floor or step into my shop clogs to raise me just enough to make the more slanted tote comfortable.

I choose the tools that best fit my needs AND my budget. LV is the home team for me and most often is the price leader as our dollar frequently suffers vs the greenback. Then again, I used to live in Norway and try to support those Norskies when I see them make good stuff, so I'm careful to check out LN before making my final choice. But one thing is for sure, I never worry if I'm making the right decision, I know I can change my mind if what I bought ends up not working like I thought it would.

And finally, if money is an issue, always try to buy your last tool first... Buying something less expensive that only irritates you and doesn't do the job the way you want it to, will some day have to be replaced with a tool that does. And buying a cheap tool AND an expensive tool costs more than just going ahead and buying that expensive tool first.

That's the way I see it....

Regards

Christian

David Gendron
03-12-2009, 9:39 PM
Hey Brian, I do have both in my shop, I realy like the Veritas plane, I love the #7 LA BU jointer and the LA BU block plane I have bunch of other one like the skuew rabbet plane, med shoulder, apron plane, small plow and a few more... I have a #5 jack from LN that I like and Some old stanley #3,4,6 and 608 that seem to work just as good. For the old stanley, if you put hock blade and chip braker it does make a difference!
David

Will Blick
03-13-2009, 12:49 PM
First, like others have said, I find it remarkable we have two amazing makers of such high quality products in such a small niche field. Both companies are committed to the craft, and both offer tremendous customer service.... we are lucky. You never hear a bad comment about either company.


that being said, I fully agree with the above posters comments...


> But the two different design and marketing philosophies of the companies is what I really find interesting. Tom LN gives the nod to classic Bailey (and other) designs, making incremental modifications to produce a superior product. Rob Lee seems to says, "let's design and build better, more innovative, planes at the highest quality we can for a competitive price." Period. (My quote, not his!)


While staying with ONE vendor might seem desirable, in the end, if you are not a collector....I would agree with others, go with products that make the most sense to you, best feel, best look, best angle of attack. The one exception here is versatility.... this is why I went with LV on the BU, Jack and Jointer plane, I have 3 different angles of attack for each, AND, can share blades between the 3....this adds to the economies of scale AND reduces the number of blades you must own, as they are "shared".... a key LV feature IMO... at least for those 3 planes, which represent the bulk of plane use.... IMO, LV does not market this feature as well as they should, you almost have to dig through through web site to get the full understanding of such. I think if they offered the 3 planes as a "package", it would help the message, specially to newbs......


As for the small and handy block plane.... unless you are a traditionalist, LV has the new NX series, clearly a pleasure to use and to look at.... from there... the specialty planes need to be considered on an individual basis....

brian rohland
03-14-2009, 11:18 AM
well, I new i would get plenty of opinions with this thread,what i didn't know was that they would be so helpful and informitive.another surprising aspect not a single bad comment about either company.I guess what this tells me is to buy as many planes as i can from both.i can't figure out why i am so obsessed with planeing, since i started fooling around with these couple of stanleys.I stoped even building and i just go in the shop and plane scrap.as far as the #4 stanley it's not an older one it's new. One of the stores had a sale 29 bucks.I thought about getting a hock iron and chipbreak but I'm thinkink 60 bucks may be better spent on a lv or ln. especially because even if they turn that stanley into a gem I'm still buying one of lv or ln's. I guess i am a little crazy like that.

David Gendron
03-15-2009, 2:32 AM
You are not crazy... My wife would think you are... but you are just like me and many others, Normal...
David

John Keeton
03-15-2009, 7:00 AM
David and Brian, just for fun I pulled the ol' dictionary, and one definition of "crazy" is a "departure from moderation." Given that, one might conclude that there are a whole flock of "crazys" here on the creek:D

We may be a lot of things, but I haven't noticed "moderate" to be oft' included!

Arnold E Schnitzer
03-15-2009, 10:09 AM
I have several LN planes, and use both the low and standard angle block planes daily. You could not design a better plane, IMPO. I had an older LV block plane for a while, but I really did not like the tapered shape of the blades, which makes sharpening a challenge. I also did not like the way it felt in my hands compared to the LN. To be fair, I have not tried the new LV block planes.

Dan Karachio
03-16-2009, 4:26 PM
I'm just starting out and have two LN planes, but I can see some LV in my future too. I only wish dealers like Woodcraft would carry the LV so I could see one in person. However, going direct may allow LV to keep their prices a bit lower than LN? I have no idea.