Durability of CerMark on Stainless

[Dan Hintz]

For those who have successfully marked SS using Cermark... how durable is this stuff? My understanding was once properly marked, you have to take off metal to remove the mark. I don't think my mark is that durable :(

For tuning purposes, I put in a 20mil thick piece of SS and etched multiple squares on it. The squares run from 5-100% in increments of 5, and I ran speeds of 100, 80, 60, 40, 30, and 20, all at 1000dpi. For reference, I've seen multiple posting of success on SMC with 10S/100P and 20S/100P for 45W systems... mine is a 60W measuring out at over 70W true, so I should be above those numbers without a problem.

Oddly enough, the lower power squares were the darkest, regardless of speed... 20-40S were the best by far, with the higher powers fading by half or more when I wiped them down with DNA. It was a tough call as so many were so close in color, but it appeared like 20S/15P had the darkest mark. I expected jet black, but it had a slight off-black look to it. I scrubbed the crap out of the entire plate with a cotton ball and DNA to get rid of any "loose" marking material and ensure that I was looking only at "properly" lasered marks.

To me, the true test was taking some 60- or 80-grit sandpaper to it for a few swipes, relatively low pressure. It didn't hold up to that torture test at all... a few back and forth scrapes and I was looking at streaks of bare SS underneath. I expected the mark to hold up to much more abuse than this.

Am I expecting too much out of the Cermark, or do you believe I haven't properly marked the material? It won't come off by scratching with a fingernail, if that's a fair test of its durability.

[James Stokes]

Really that is all you are going to get. If you use sandpaper or a scotch brite pad or an acid wash the mark will come off. But if it is just handled or outside in the weather it will last a long time.

[Dan Hintz]

Okay, I guess I had hyped it up in my own mind as to its durability, but if that's what she'll give me, that's what she'll give me...

I find it interesting that the lower powers (typically 20-40P) work at most speeds, even 100S. The best for me seemed to be 30S/25P or 20S/15P. I guess I'll run another batch of tests at 500 dpi to see if I can speed things up and still get a reasonable mark without unduly heating the material.

On a side note, I ran these test in columns of 4x5 blocks... I didn't pay attention to the sheet metal after a while (reading a book as it ran), but as I slowed the speed it actually started warping the metal :cool: The pieces edge 2" away from the point being marked was about 1/2" high off of the table. I can't imagien what it would have looked like had this been a large/thick logo instead of small 3/16" squares!

[Mike Null]

Cermark has recommended settings posted here.

thermark.com/content/view/116/171/

[Rodne Gold]

If you can take it off easily with sandpaper - its not sticking properly
We did 200 stainless steel flasks and could only remove the mark (customers mistake) by turning em on a lathe.
We have removed marks using vigourous sanding with sandpaper only to find a sort of "impression" in the metal. We currently do stainless tags for a nuclear power station and they have subjected the tags to extreme conditions and are happy.

[Doug Bergstrom]

I agree with Rodne, we do parts and items like flasks all the time. You cannot get this stuff off with a light touch. If lasered properly the mark will only come off with the metal and will stand up to almost any chemical or cleaning. I would check the settings on there website. We tend to hit it with more power then recommended. We just had a part that we had to change the engraving on and we had to put it on a lathe to get the mark off.

[Albert Nix]

I make data plates for a company that builds large tanks. I rastor at 30s 100p 300dpi with my 40W. I agree with Rod, I did a test run in the beginning to check durability and I had to use 180 grit sanding disc to remove the marking. I was impressed with how durable the mark was. The company supplies the blank plates and I am pretty sure the plates are 304SS. A different stainless may not mark the same.

[Dan Hintz]

Rodney, that's what I thought, but having never used it before or actually held a marked item in my hands I couldn't be sure. Thanks for verifying. If this stuff was going to be so easy to take off, I don't think I could recommend it to my customers. As it is, I have a box of SS brackets that need to be marked as a semi-rush job, so I'm trying to find the correct settings.

Am I wrong in assuming the mark would have come off with the cotton ball and DNA if the stainless had a coating on it?



Mike, Thermark recommends 30W and 56in/s. I believe my 60W PLS is 75in/s raster, so this would give me settings of 75S/50P. This is a far cry from what others have used and listed here for 45W machines (10-20S/100P), even when the difference in power is taken into account.

EDIT: Interestingly enough (now that I crank through the numbers), let's assume similar machine speeds between the previously mentioned 45W machine and mine. If I take the Thermark suggested settings modified for my machine (75S/50P) and translate the speed down to the 45W machine's value of 10-20S, I get 10S/7P to 20S/13P... the darkest mark on my test blocks appeared to be at 20S/10-20P, with 20S/15P being the darkest.

So my settings appear to match up with what others are using... but why is my mark so easily removed?

[Mike Null]

Dan

I have a job which must go out today using Thermark and aluminum. I have not found the magic formula but this morning I'll start my tests with lower power and speed and dpi. The Thermark settings did not work for me.

I just replaced my PC and was unable to make the back up file for settings work so I'm starting over.

[Frank Corker]

Dan have you tried other stainless steel materials to try your cermark on? If they come off on those and the items you are having problems with now, I would think it has to be lack of power. Some stainless steel stuff that I have done in the past came off after the initial test, not entirely and it required a lot of work to remove what had stuck. I slowed the speed down, kept the power high and got a great result.

Too much cermark is worse that too little. Never think that an extra coat is going to make it darker, it won't. Applying it by small brush or sponge is a hit and miss affair because the thickness levels are uneven. That's not to say you won't get a result, but sprayed on extremely thin generally gives a beautiful rich finish. I have never given it two coats since I tried it, one even coat was all that was needed. As for removing the mark from a piece which was done in this fashion, it could only be wet/dry 2400 and loads of hard polishing.

[Dan Hintz]

Frank, this is my first attempt at SS, and I played the odds at accepting the job before getting my settings correct. this is not a customer I want to annoy as their previous markers kept pulling the "It'll be done in a week" for 10 weeks scam.




I'm using the 6038... I wanted a little extra sticking power since I knew stainless would be a popular item for my clients. I poured some into a clean baby food jar and mixed it about 3:1 (maybe 4:1, I didn't measure except by eye) DNA:Cermark. Even then, that stuff surprised me at its opaqueness on the jar wall after a swirl.

Using a foam brush, I took my first swipe across the 8" wide shim plate. It started off quite thin with the SS showing through (I would guesstimate about a 50% coverage if we were talking about a printing screen), but by halfway across it was covering evenly at 100%. I could not see the stainless below the remaining stripes on the sheet, but my gut feeling says it was being covered just enough... maybe it was going on too thick? I wish I was home so I could take a picture. If I pressed my finger to the dried solution (like I was being fingerprinted at the police station), I would leave a rough fingerprint mark of SS (removed solution).

I'm now wondering if I should thin it down even more and try again. I recall 3:1 being a typical dilution ratio, and Sean (of Ferro fame) mentioning the coat should be just thick enough to prevent the metal from showing through, but I could be wrong.

[Mike Null]

I have just run a few tests with Thermark and aluminum. I'm not happy but I think this result may be the best I can get with aluminum.

The one with 500 dpi actually looks best.

[Steve Rozwood]

Hi Dan,

I work for the manufacture of the CerMark product LMM-6000 and I will be pleased to help. I sounds to me that you are not using enough power. I would recommend that you keep your power at 100%. Then drop your speed settings down until you find the best bond. It seems that you have done so in the first post but then you changed the power setting to 20power/15speed. You will get a better bond with 100% power. Your 75 watt laser should let you make a mark with adequate speed. Let me know how that works.

Steve

Stephen Rozwood
Technical Service Representative
Ferro Corporation
251 West Wylie Ave.
Washington, PA 15301

Phone: (724) 223-5990
Fax: (724) 228-3170
Email: rozwoods@ferro.com (rozwoods@ferro.com)

[Tim Bateson]

I've found that thoroughly cleaning the metal first helps too.

[Dan Hintz]

Tim, I wiped it down with some DNA first to remove all contaminants. I didn't have anything stronger at the time...




Steve,

Thanks for stepping in on this one... I intend to run some more samples when I get home. I'll also try to take some pics and post them here to make sure I'm painting with the correct thickness.

The test blocks are a 4x5 grid of 3/16" squares. Each square is an increment of 5% power, so one block gives me all useful power levels for one speed. I ran 6 of these blocks, one for each of the following speeds: 100, 80, 60, 40, 30, and 20. I was surprised to find out the most durable marks were at the lower power squares, regardless of the speed setting for the block.

A 1"x1" block of 3/16" test squares looks like this:


5 10 15 20
25 30 35 40
45 50 55 60
65 70 75 80
85 90 95 100
where the # is the power, and the entire block is run at one speed. The highlighted numbers are the squares that looked the best/darkest on each block, with the best being on the 20% speed block at 15% power square.

[Gary Hair]

Dan,
My guess is you are putting it on too thick and lasering it at too low of a power setting. A sponge or brush is not going to give you the thin, even coating that you need to get great marks - you really have to airbrush it on. Go to Harbor Freight and buy their cheapo $9.00 airbrush, it will work fine. I have a $90 Paasche, but the HF one will work fine. Thin it to about 3 or 4 - 1, as you have it should be fine. Spray on a coating that is just thick enough to subdue the shine of the metal, not completely cover it. I spray it on in 1 pass and you can actually see a bit of the metal through the Cermark.

I lasered 1/4" squares at 100% power and varying speeds until the mark started going gray instead of black - I decreased by 5% on each square. After you mark the piece, use a paper towel and vigorously scrub the marks with water. You'll want to use the setting between where it just starts to stick and where it turns gray. Now do the same test pattern decreasing by 1%, starting with the setting that turned gray and increasing the speed until it rubs off again. Somewhere in between is your optimal speed/power for that particular piece.

Attached is my test piece for my stainless business cards. The upper left was 100% power, 100% speed, the middle row, far right was 100% power, 5% speed. You can clearly see where it started sticking. It's a bit harder to tell, but the 5% speed section is grayish color. The best result was between 20% and 30% speed. The bottom row started with 30% speed and ended at 20%. The best was about halfway in between, so for this project I used 100% power and 25% speed.

It may seem like a lot of work, but it didn't take me more than a few minutes of work and now I know for sure what works on those pieces. Different alloys and thicknesses will have slightly different results, but at least I have a better starting point for them.

Gary

[Steve Rozwood]

Dan,

Gary's answer is very good and his power grid is very nice, I couldn't state it any better.

100% power will give you the most durable marks. The only question I have is; did you check if there is a coating on the surface of the metal?

Steve

[Dan Hintz]

I'll post my pics first, then get back to your response, Gary.

The first pic is of my speed/power blocks. I forgot to rotate it before sending, so the description will be a little weird. There are 6 blocks, each 5x4 with 5% increment squares. The bottom left corner is 5% power, upper left is 20%, and the upper right is 100%. The upper left block is 100% speed, followed by 80 and 60 going to the right. starting at the lower left block is 40% speed, followed by 30 and 20 going to the right again. The lower right block (20% speed) had the best setting at 15% power (2nd square down from upper left). I hope that's clear.

The second pic is of the sheet I coated. The upper right was my first pass with the brush and left a very thin coat that quickly thickened up as I tilted the brush over more. The second stripe underneath is as thick as the rest of the board and is the same thickness of Cermark I lasered through to get the power blocks listed above.

[Dan Hintz]

Steve,

There doesn't appear to be any coating, but I wouldn't stake my reputation on that yet ;)




Gary,

You may be right about the thickness of the coating. As you can (possibly?) see from my second photo, the majority of the board is coated in what I thought was a very thin layer, but according to your description it should be more like what I did in the beginning of the first pass with the brush. I'm going to try and thin it down even more and take a very light pass with the brush, try to duplicate the first pass and see if that helps. If it thins it out too much, I'll leave the top off for an hour or so and let some of the DNA evaporate.

I'll let you know how it turns out...

[Albert Nix]

I would like to know the difference between using CerMark and Alumamark.
I have to use a high power setting when using CerMark (100p 30s) and Low power with Alumamark (18p 100s). It makes you wunder how many different coatings there are out there.
Thanks for the help Steve! Maybe you can shead a little light on the matter. By the way I really like CerMark but, so far I have only used the spray can. I am considering buying a can and mixing my own to use in an airbush. Can you save any unused mix and how long will it last?
Thanks

[Dan Hintz]

Ok, here's the next test...

The order is a bit flipped here, but this is it at 100% power:
60-55...10-5
100-99...70-65

100-99...70-65
60-55...10-5

The first two rows were engraved on a very light coat, the second two rows were on a slightly heavier coat (but much lighter than the original test).

The majority of marks have a blue pattern in them, kind of what stainless and titanium look like after they've been heated heavily. The two marks at 5% are the darkest, but they also have ripple patterns in them, as if I melted the steel and caused waves.

This is not looking good right now :(

[Dan Hintz]

I dropped the dpi down to 500, then 333, which has resolved the blue issue (it probably was overheating the metal). The marks aren't as deep a black as I would expect, but they hold up to sandpaper a little better. I'm still stumped...

[Gary Hair]

Dan,
I think the discoloration is scorching of the metal, indicating too much power. If the Cermark is too thick, it might take an excess of power to get it to stick and cause scorching.

I can't stress enough how important I think it is to use an airbrush. Unless I am doing a pen clip I will always apply with the airbrush. Any area larger than that is too difficult to get an even coat and negates any testing I have done to determine optimal settings.

Here are all of my settings:
100% power (30 watts)
20% speed (80 ips raster)
600 dpi (dot per inch)
1425 ppi (pulses per inch)

If you use 1,000 dpi you will get more heat in any given spot, but 600 seems to work fine, I have even gotten away with 300 on some block letters.

I would try your grid test again with a thin coat airbrushed on - something like this:

100% power
5,10,15,20,25,30...90,95,100 speed
if they are all scorched then reduce power 10% and try again. If still scorched then reduce another 10% and keep trying until you don't get scorched marks.

It really makes no sense that you get a good mark with such low power and speed, you need to "cook" the Cermark on for durability and I don't see how it can do that with the settings that seem to work for you.

If you want to send me a scrap piece of your material, I'd be happy to try it on my laser and even send it back coated, with my airbrush, for you to try and see if there is any difference. Just let me know and I'll PM my address.

Gary

[Mike Null]

Gary

Is it your opinion that the rattle can will not produce as good results as an airbrush?

[Jack Harper]

Gary

Is it your opinion that the rattle can will not produce as good results as an airbrush?

Mike - I have used the rattle can for most of my work and just recently switched to airbrush. I agree with everyone one else wholeheartedly, the airbrush is the way to go. The airbrush puts it on much smoother and thinner. I just did 100 parts and used very little Cermark and ended up with a very black mark that I could not remove. I have found using my 4" lens gives me a better, blacker mark. I run at 300dpi. 40ips and 100% power.

[James Rambo]

I have a 60 watt epilog legend and my setting are 100 power 25 speed 600 dpi. I use a Prevail sprayer that I picked up at a hardware store and I thin lmm-6000 as much as 10 -1 with iso alcohol and it comes out great

[Dan Hintz]

Gary, looks like you were probably writing your post when I sent in my last one... looks like we're on the same page as far as too much power is concerned. My tests at 500 and 333 dpi showed zero sign of bluing of the metal.


James, thanks... those are the same settings I expected would work with my 60W based upon the settings people have posted for the 45W. I have diluted the solution to about 10:1 for brushing, so I'm already there.



About the only thing I can try at this point is an airbrush (and hope for the best). Of course, I still don't know what the correct thickness is... does anyone have a before and after picture of a piece of metal to give me at least a glimmer of what I should be looking for? It's one more variable to lock down... I can run plenty of tuning squares, but if I don't know what the piece should look like beforehand or how much abuse it can take afterwards, I may be shooting at a moving target.

On my 500dpi test on a thick coat of CerMark (100P/ all speeds), almost all of the marks looked pretty good (compared ot what I've seen in the past, though none were the dark black I had hoped for), but they scratched with some sandpaper scraping... it doesn't remove the mark entirely, but it definitely starts to show scrapes of metal below. Is that normal? Maybe, I'm finding it a bit difficult to tell what's normal wear and what's due to a poor mark.

[Mike Null]

Jack

Thank you. I have everything but the bulk Cermark. I'll order that tomorrow.

[Richard Rumancik]

. . .There doesn't appear to be any coating, but I wouldn't stake my reputation on that yet ...

Sometimes it can be difficult to tell visually if there is an organic coating on metal. I have used an ohmeter to test for resistance of the surface to help determine this. I just touch the probes with minimal pressure and see if I get a reading. (If you press the tips harder into the surface and you suddenly get a "zero" reading, you have broken through the coating layer and you can be sure there is something on the surface.)

With promotional products, this is a good initial test to do. Much of these items come from Asia and you never really know what is on them. Usually you can do this test without damaging the item.

[Gary Hair]

Gary

Is it your opinion that the rattle can will not produce as good results as an airbrush?

I've never used the rattle can Mike, so I can't say for sure. I know from my experience with rattle cans in general, that I don't think you have as much control with the rattle can as you can get with an airbrush and I think you'll have a lot more waste. Plus, you can control the thinning with an airbrush.

Gary

[Gary Hair]

Of course, I still don't know what the correct thickness is... does anyone have a before and after picture of a piece of metal to give me at least a glimmer of what I should be looking for?

It would be very difficult to photograph in a way to really show you how thin it needs to be, it's not much easier to describe it either.

If you could imagine the metal being clear, you want just enough to make it difficult to see through it, but not completely opaque. If you looked at it under magnification you would see pretty large gaps in the coating, it is not continuous, but it is even.

In my testing, you want just enough to make the mark complete, that's it, any more and you won't get consistent results. You would be amazed at how little you need. My guess is that it is like the "dot gain" when inkjet printing or dye sublimating. The particles have a gap between them that is "filled in" when the laser hits them.

Keep trying and it will be worth the effort. I have a customer that sends me about a thousand parts a month, all I do is clean, spray Cermark, laser, clean and ship them back. I think I use about $1.00 worth of Cermark on them, maybe that will tell you how thin I spray it...

Gary

[Dan Hintz]

After I leave work today I'm headed to Harbor Freight to pick up a cheapy airbrush. I have a high-end, dual-action Badger that hasn't seen the light of day for nearly 20 years (God, has it been that long?!), but I don't think it would handle the thicker Cermark. If I can find the right fittings, I'll just connect it to my large compressor, otherwise I'll be forced to pick up a cheapy compressor, too.

The client's brackets came in yesterday... thinner than I thought they would be, but also a different finish from the piece I've been testing on. I may just have to bite the bullet, spray one, and use the settings I estimated earlier (and verified by James).

If anyone has a good picture of a sprayed piece so I can see the thickness I'm shotting for, I'd really appreciate you posting it :)

[Jack Harper]

Dan - Your badger is just fine. Dilute the Cermark to a nice thin solution. You can always keep spraying to add more so you will not get it to thin. Also, try to purposely put the Cermark on too thin and give it a go. I believe you will find that you have been putting to much on. I spray mine on so I can still see some of the gray background of the steel. If I go all the way to a solid cream color, I have gone to far. The beauty of the airbrush is its ability to atomize the spray allowing a prefect even coat. Of course the better the airbrush, the better/finer the atomization.

[Dan Hintz]

Jack,

My concern with the Badger is I only have fine needles. I picked it up barely used from a classmate in high school who was a whiz with airbrushes, but I didn't practice with it long enough to get any appreciable skill at the dual-action portion... I was used to single-action "Ugh press button, hiss noise make paint come out" caveman style of brush.

If they have it in stock, I'll try for this one for $10: #93506-4VGA
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/93500-93599/93506.gif
The nozzle is about a #5 needle, and the closed bottle will allow me to keep the solution mixed up with swirling between passes.

[Dave Johnson29]

If anyone has a good picture of a sprayed piece so I can see the thickness I'm shooting for, I'd really appreciate you posting it :)

Not much direct help, but not long after I first joined the 'creek, there was a thread on Cermark or Thermark and someone posted some a pic of the thin airbrushed covering.

Seach young man, search. :)

I looked but could not find it. It is faintly possible it may not have been a thread on the 'creek but on another laser group. I am pretty sure it was here though.

[Gary Hair]

If they have it in stock, I'll try for this one for $10: #93506-4VGA

I tried that one and it didn't work well with Cermark. It works fine with my Lithichrome paint that I use for sandcarved rocks, but not for Cermark.

Here is the one I used before I bought the Paasche.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47791

Gary

[Jack Harper]

Jack,

My concern with the Badger is I only have fine needles. I picked it up barely used from a classmate in high school who was a whiz with airbrushes, but I didn't practice with it long enough to get any appreciable skill at the dual-action portion... I was used to single-action "Ugh press button, hiss noise make paint come out" caveman style of brush.

If they have it in stock, I'll try for this one for $10: #93506-4VGA
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/93500-93599/93506.gif
The nozzle is about a #5 needle, and the closed bottle will allow me to keep the solution mixed up with swirling between passes.

Dan - I have no problems with my fine needles on my airbrush. The problem with what you are looking at is the lack of fine atomization of the spray. The finer the spray, the better the control of application.

[Dan Hintz]

Seach young man, search. :)
Funny you should mention that, Dave ;) I have spent an average of 35+ hours a week for the last 2.5 months reading through every thread ever posted on this forum, starting with Keith's first post when he opened the forum to engravers in general... I'm up to threads last replied to in February of 2008! I'm taking careful notes of every power setting I come across, as well as extensive notes on project ideas, material hints, business-building ideas, and supplier info. I kid you not when I say my eyes are becoming a bit blurry.

All of that work has paid off though, as it has allowed me to jump right into the middle of projects with great ideas and initial settings. But nothing beats practical experience, and Cermark is evidently (for me, at least) one of those nasty beasts to get right initially.

[Roland Kramer]

Hi Mike,

I get a nice rich black result on aluminum by spraying a thick coat of Cermark and etching at 100%P 15%S. I find that two even coats works great. I attached a picture of an aluminum portfolio that I etched with Cermark. I had to take some steel wool and remove an anti scratch coating to expose the bare aluminum. The client liked the distressed look. Looks like the tags you marked were just bare aluminum?

I've etched bare aluminum and anodized aluminum and both require a thicker layer of Cermark than stainless steel.

When etching anodized, I do two passes. The first pass etches off the anodized coating. Then I spray the item with Cermark while it's in the machine, change power and speed and run the etching again to bond the Cermark.

[Dan Hintz]

Well, it's done, for better or for worse. 26 stainless steel brackets.

I purchased the sprayer Gary mentioned (they didn't even have the one I initially listed) and started playing. Started at 20 psi and the coating was uneven... waves and puddles. Took another scrub with DNA, tried again... a bit better. Dropped it to 10 psi... sporadic spray, sucked. Jumped to 30 psi and now we're cooking with gas. I had to look at it in the light at and angle to see if it was going on. A minute to dry and pop it in the laser.

25S/100P/500dpi, and hit the big green 'go' button. Washed off the residue... so good so far, though the mark wasn't as deep a black as I would have wished for, it had a slight paleness to it, about an 8/10. Took some steel wool to it...and it stuck.
And the world keeps turning...

Thanks a million, guys! Beers all around (to those attending the mid-Atlantic meet in May :) )

[Gary Hair]

the mark wasn't as deep a black as I would have wished for, it had a slight paleness to it

Congrats on getting it done!

The marks would probably be a bit darker if you speed it up just a bit. Too slow or too much power results in a grayish/blue mark instead of black. Now that you are done with the order, try some more testing with an increase of 5% speed and then maybe 10% - if the mark is blacker, and still sticks, then you are where you need to be.

Well done!!

Gary

[Dan Hintz]

LOL, Mike... it took me a while to figure out what two words you removed from my post. I had to read the thing several times, then I decided to read it as if I was saying it (which is how I often write)... figured it out that time!

[Rodne Gold]

We do a lot of cermark work , we dilute and add a drop or 2 of dishwashing liquid as a wetting agent , spray with a paasche using a no 5 needle and use the gravity hopper and not the bottle , we spray in an enclosed pex "box" and then laser soon after , we brush off excess and only "lightly wash" , keeping both the brusshed off stuff and the cermark washed water , we scrape the sides of the box as well and use the brushed/scraped off excess and the washed off stuff again.
We want a nice flat consistent yellow/grey finish and hit it with a LOT of power .. most of our stuff is not fine details so we arent concerned about the nth degree of "fineness" , we want the mark to stick like crazy and be a black as possible.
We use about 1/3 to 1/2 the power/time setting we would use to cut 3mm (1/8th) pex

[Mike Null]

Dan

I guess that's good then. Child proofing things isn't much fun at times.