Defective Waterstones??

[Casey Gooding]

OK, I know my King waterstones aren't really defective. However, I simply cannot get a mirror shine from my G-1 (8000 grit). I clean it, flatten it, use a nagura, don't use a nagura. Everything I can think of. My chisels and plane blades never get a mirror shine.
That being said, I have a Norton 8000 stone at work that I can get a mirror shine with.
What's up??? I'm at a complete loss here.

[Marco Cecala]

I have had this same problem. I was fortunate enough to have gone to visit Gary Rogowski in Portland, and be the subject of "A trip to the sharpening doctor" for Fine Woodworking.

During our 2 days, Gary was able to get a mirror polish on his King 6000, while my Norton 8000 left a dull "polish".

Gary recommended, and I am now using "Herb's Yellowstone" Honing compound, available from Craftsman Studios. It gave me a great polish using it on a leather strop.

My input? Sometimes you may get the shine, light touch, more fine particles, etc. When on that file a stone, the edge will work well, regardless of polish. A final stropping will shine it the way you like it.

[David DeCristoforo]

As you finish polishing, let the stone start to go dry. It will turn black from the steel remaining on the surface of the stone. A few strokes more and you will be polishing "steel on steel". (It is interesting to note that natural stones often will not polish as bright as the synthetic stones. Different stones have different qualities and may not yield exactly the same result.) If you still don't get a mirror finish, you may not be getting all of the coarser scratches out. What is the grit of the previous stone? BTW, the nagura is only used at the start to bring up a slurry.

[Mike Henderson]

The thing to worry about is whether your tools are sharp and performing well, and not whether they shine or not. If the shine is important to you, get some green honing compound - you can get it at your local wood store (I get it at Woodcraft) - and use that on leather or just on MDF. That will put a shine on your tool bevels.

The green honing compound is cheap. I buy it in large bars because I use it on my carving tools, and I think I pay about $10 for the bar. A large bar lasts me for years and I use it a lot. If you only use it on plane blades and chisels, a large bar is probably a lifetime supply.

Mike

[Attached is a picture of the large bar of green honing compound. I included the glasses just to give a size perspective. This bar is partially used.]

[Wilbur Pan]

I know some will look at this as heresy, but a mirror shine does not equal sharp. So don't worry about it. ;) What you want is a clean intersection of the back and bevel of your tool.

Here's a picture of a ridiculously sharp Japanese chisel (not mine, though). Clearly, there isn't a mirror finish on it.

http://www.geocities.com/soatoz/nomi/Nagahiro_Chisel/Nagahiro_Oiire/Nagahiro_Oiire4.jpg

In fact, Japanese tools have a well-deserved reputation for having extreme sharpness, but overall they do not have that highly polished appearance that is seen more often in western tools.

I've used natural Japanese waterstones and Shaptons. Both will give me a very sharp edge, but the Shaptons will give me a shinier surface than the natural waterstones, on both western and Japanese tools. Since both types of waterstones will give me very sharp edges, I've come to believe that a mirror finish has nothing to do with it.

[Casey Gooding]

I do realize that mirror doesn't equal sharp and a non-mirror can be lethally sharp. However, and I should have stated this earlier, my tools certainly get sharper on the Norton than on the King stone.

[Douglas Brummett]

That is a weird issue on a man-made stone, especially that fine in grit. I have yet to see a synthetic waterstone over 8000g that wouldn't produce a mirror finish, even with scratches from 1-2 stones prior. Either your technique could use some improvement or you could in fact have a defective stone. It isn't unheard of to have a stone batch get contaminated.

[John Baranowski]

I do realize that mirror doesn't equal sharp and a non-mirror can be lethally sharp. However, and I should have stated this earlier, my tools certainly get sharper on the Norton than on the King stone.
While I agree in principle, the mirror provided by the highest stone can serve as a good indicator of whether you have finished with the last stone. For me, I have a 4000/8000 Norton, and the 4000 leaves a grey finish, while the 8000 a mirror. That mirror lets me know when I am getting close to finished, then I remove the burr. done.

[george wilson]

I am certain that a shiny edge is a sharper edge. The absence of a polished surface indicates a surface of micro scratches. The edge needs to be as free of scratches as possible. The term razor sharp is somewhat open to personal interpretation. That is a problem here. Look at the edge of a razor blade. You will never see one that has a dull finished edge. That should tell something.

[Wilbur Pan]

Here's another picture. This is one of my Japanese chisels, which does not have a mirror polish. Next to it is an end grain pine shaving I made with it.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_a3R4RhWn1Is/SZDyLCmduQI/AAAAAAAAAZc/7Lct0OT13m8/s800/IMG_7984.JPG

If mirror polish is all there was to it, we'd all be singing the praises of Two Cherries bench chisels. ;)

I think that mirror polish is a result of a very even scratch pattern, and is not an absolute measure of sharpness itself. Probably what is happening with natural Japanese waterstones is that you get a spread of scratches, which results in a matte finish on the tool, but the range of the sizes of the scratches is smaller than the scratches that you would get on, say, an 8000 grit man made waterstone, so the edge is at least as sharp as that coming off of an 8000 grit Norton.

Just to clarify: I do think you can get very sharp edges with tools with a mirror finish as well. It's just that there is more to getting a sharp edge than a mirror finish, and with certain sharpening methods, a mirror finish seems to be unnecessary for a sharp edge.

[george wilson]

High polish is not all there is to it. Polish gotten by buffing is apt to be too rounded and blunt an edge. I only advocate a last stroping which maintains the acute edge,not excessive polishing such as you see on factory edges of some chisels and carving tools. It cannot be logical to deny that a polished edge is less serrated than a matte edge. If applied correctly,it will give a smoother microscopic edge that is also acute as it should be.

On the other hand,if you are happy with whatever edge you have,by all means use it.

[Wilbur Pan]

It is completely logical that a matte edge can be sharper than a polished edge.

If the polished edge has even scratches of 1 micron, and the matte edge has a range of scratch sizes ranging from 0.1 micron to 0.5 micron, then the matte edge will have a sharper edge, as all the scratches are still smaller than the tool with the polished edge.

[george wilson]

Why are all razor blades mirror polished on their edges? Surgical instruments also.How much time and development in a competetive market has been spent on these type of items,where the smoothest and most comfortable shaves will win the customers? How are you measuring your microns? I do not advocate high polish with deep scratches.That is not finished craftsmanship. Only high polish with no scratches.

Obviously,a matte chisel can cut. It is a matter of degrees which will cut the smoothest.

[Mike Henderson]

Could I throw a question in here?

"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Mike

[george wilson]

It's not that esoteric,Mike,though I agree it is similar to many discussions that seem to go around and around,in spite of real and logical evidences that are presented.

As a machinist,I use gage blocks,which are accurate to millionths of an inch. Their surfaces are lapped to extremely flat and polished degrees so that they will stick together as if they were magnetized,but are not. They would not behave this way,or be as accurate with matte,unfinished surfaces.It should be abundantly clear that a polished surface is smoother than a matte one.

It is not logical to say that a polished edge will be less smooth than a matte edge.

[Wilbur Pan]

As to the numbers I posted, an 8000 grit manmade waterstone has sharpening particles of about 1 micron in size, so it will leave a uniform pattern of 1 micron scratches. A natural Japanese waterstone has particles that break down to a size smaller than 1 micron, so although the scratch pattern is not uniform, the scratches left are going to be smaller than the 8000 grit manmade waterstone.

Clearly, if there was a uniform pattern of scratches that were smaller, that would lead to the sharper tool. But that is my point: it's not the uniformity of the scratches (mirror finish), it's the size that is important. You are actually saying the same thing.

If you are still unclear as to what I'm saying, try turning the question around: how is the tool with a uniform pattern (mirror finish) of 1 micron scratches sharper than a tool with a non-uniform pattern of scratches (matte finish), the largest of which is 0.5 microns, which is smaller than the first tool?

[george wilson]

A polished surface looks polished because the scratches have been made so small that the eye can no longer percieve them,and light begins to react differently to them because they are so fine.I do not know how to make it any more clear. I also do not think you have any way of correctly measuring your microns. On a stone,there are loose particles present that make scratches in the surface. On a strop,when an agent that is composed of much smaller particles is used,you do not get the same scratchy effect.

Please,by all means,keep using your matte finish chisels. I really don't care.

[David DeCristoforo]

FWIW I don't recall anyone claiming that a mirror finish was necessary to have a razor sharp edge. My "favorite" natural finishing stone will not yield a mirror finish unless I let it go dry so that the steel builds up on the surface. But the edge it produces will remove the hair from my arm with ease. If I do let the stone "go black", I am really not polishing on stone any more. I can get a good mirror finish this way but the resulting edge will not be noticeably "sharper".

[george wilson]

Why don't you try to find razor blades with non polished edges,and shave with them?:) Maybe the Chinese make some that way. Come on,THINK about it some.

[Casey Gooding]

OK-
Maybe I should try to get us back on task here.
The issue is not the mirror finish itself. But, rather, why two stones of supposed equal grit give two very different levels of sharpness. As I said, I have no problem getting a nice razor sharp edge on the Norton, while the King certainly leaves something to be desired.
FWIW, while I'm not the finest sharpener in the world. I am competent at it. My technique is not changing between these stones, so technique is not the issue.

[Mike Henderson]

I started out sharpening with King stones but was not satisfied with the results I was getting. I eventually wound up with Shapton stones and a couple of DMT diamond plates and am reasonably satisfied with the results I'm getting now.

But it's hard for me to know if my initial dissatisfaction was due to my lack of skill or to the stones. I still have the King stones and will go back and sharpen on them to see what difference I see now between the King and the Shaptons.

Sorry I can't answer your question but I'll do some investigation with what I have. I understand your point that your skill is constant across the use of the two stones.

Mike

[Wilbur Pan]

Maybe it's an issue of the feel of the stones. There are things that are easily quantifiable, such as the grit, and things that are not, such as how easily the tool slides over the stone, how quickly the stone wears, etc. That may be why you have a difference between your Norton and your King. This issue probably is user dependent, and tool dependent as well.

To add somethng else to the mix, not all waterstone grits are created equal, and although both your King and your Norton are labelled as 8000 grit, the actual size of the particles in each stone may be different. It seems that "grit" is good for comparing sharpening media from the same company, but is not so accurate when comparing one brand to the next.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe it's an issue of the feel of the stones. There are things that are easily quantifiable, such as the grit, and things that are not, such as how easily the tool slides over the stone, how quickly the stone wears, etc. That may be why you have a difference between your Norton and your King. This issue probably is user dependent, and tool dependent as well.

To add somethng else to the mix, not all waterstone grits are created equal, and although both your King and your Norton are labelled as 8000 grit, the actual size of the particles in each stone may be different. It seems that "grit" is good for comparing sharpening media from the same company, but is not so accurate when comparing one brand to the next.

My two stones for final finish are a 4000 King and an 8000 Norton.
The King seems to be a little harder. It also feels like there is a little more resistance or stickiness as the edge is being worked. The spots of steel from the blade also seem to group on the surface.

The Norton feels like the metal is gliding across the surface. The swarf disperses better. The stone also seems to be softer and wears faster. One problem is if the blade is lifted a little, it can dig in and leave a line on the surface.

As far as the polish, both will give a nice shine. The 4000 gives a hazy shine and the 8000 is like a mirror.

Just because the metal shines like a mirror does not mean the bevel and the back are meeting at a point. Just because a cylinder shines like a mirror, it does not mean it will cut wood.

As far as cutting hair, I can do that off of an 800 stone, it is just a little uncomfortable.

For me, there are different levels of a blade cutting hair.

If it can be felt, then it is not as sharp as could be, but may be enough for the job at hand.

Then there is the cutting most of the hair and scraping the skin. That is pretty sharp.

My favorite is when there is no sensation, it looks like the blade is just pushing the hair over, then the blade is lifted and up comes a pile of hair and there is nothing but bald in the wake of the blade.

There are steps between these, and hopefully beyond, but likely you get the idea.

jim

[george wilson]

Jim,I think you have made an accurate descripton of different levels of "razor" sharpness.This applies not only to stones,but the type of steel. Plain carbon steel will take the keenest edge. It just doesn't last as long.

Quite a few years ago,there was an article in some magazine about razors. Someone had a razor used in the gold rush days. This particular razor was known to have been superior. So much so that other men would borrow it to shave with. They took the razor and sacrificed it to test the steel. It was found that the old razor was purer than modern aircraft quality steel. OF COURSE,that was an exception to the usual quality,which did vary back then when chemistry and everything depended upon the experience of the makers.

[Luke Townsley]

George,

What you are saying is abundantly clear and, as far as I can discern, totally correct.

That said, there might be some jobs that having a bit of "tooth" or scratches in just the right way might actually help the job along. Perhaps in certain situations where you are skewing, or slicing with the tool.

Leonard Lee refers to this in sharpening kitchen knives.

I have never heard anyone recommend it for woodworking tools except in as far as one might recommend to just get on with the job because it isn't worth the extra time to get the tool any sharper.

[Wilbur Pan]

A polished surface looks polished because the scratches have been made so small that the eye can no longer percieve them,and light begins to react differently to them because they are so fine.I do not know how to make it any more clear. I also do not think you have any way of correctly measuring your microns. On a stone,there are loose particles present that make scratches in the surface.

Here's one last thing that I'll say on this, and why you are wrong when you say that I am not "correctly measuring your microns". Here's some objective visual data on the scratch pattern left by various sharpening stones. You'll clearly see that the natural Japanese waterstones are leaving scratch patterns that are finer than even 15000 and 30000 grit waterstones. This is not an isolated case -- if you surf around on this website, you'll see other similar tests.

Again, the man made waterstones leave more of a mirrored finish than the natural waterstones, but based on the scratch pattern, the natural waterstones leave a sharper edge, even though the surface is a matte surface.

http://thejapanblade.com/test75.htm

"Logical" explanations are nice, until they are met by actual data.

[george wilson]

I know leonard Lee,and have his complimentary book. Food slicing is much different from wood slicing,though.A bit of tooth does help cut food. I don't bother to make our kitchen knives razor sharp.It is wasted effort on soft material like food.The knives get beat up anyway against plates,though my wife does know better. Sometimes she doesn't want to take a dripping roast out of the baking tray. Oh,also,the hot meat and washing knives in hot water will dull them too. It takes off that last tiny microscopic edge.

[george wilson]

Wilbur,you did notice that the edge became smoother with finer acting stones used? What happens to the edge when the surface is polished? And,this info. did not show stropped edges at all. Therefore,I fail to see what bearing this information has on polished VS matte edges. I ask again,why are all razor blades polished on their edges? Is it to make them pretty? Are you defending waterstones that you spent a lot of money on? At least,thank you for sharing how you are measuring microns.

If you went to the site that has pictures of my lute rose,I stand on my work.The carving is very small,and done with polished edges.I have microscopes myself,but no way to attach cameras to them.

BTW,I said YOU don't have any way of correctly measuring microns. Apparently you don't,since someone else did it.

[Matt Z Wilson]

[quote=george wilson;1077917]Why are all razor blades mirror polished on their edges? Surgical instruments also.

I think that since I use them every day that I am qualified to comment on this bit of argument, they are actually not polished. They are merely ground to a very acute angle. The skilled tool sharpener probably wouldn't consider a scalpel to have a quality edge. AND they get dull very quickly.

[george wilson]

Matt,I am aware that some surgical instruments like bone chisels may not have very sharp edges,true,and even are made of soft steels to avoid the possibility of broken bits of metal being left in the patient.I spoke without remembering the differences in some surgical edges.From what I understand,a rough surface on bones is better for healing. Of course,I'm not a doctor,but have several friends who I have helped with their wood and metal working hobbies,so we have talked a lot. But razor blades do have stropped edges to be sharp enough to shave hair most comfortably. I remember from many years ago,one of the razor blade makers had a T.V. commercial about their "1000 foot strop." Obviously,barbers used to strop their straight razors,back when they did not hse disposable blades.

Actually,I used to sharpen some instruments for a surgeon friend. Are some surgical edges related to food cutting edges,where a bit of tooth helps? Do excessively fine edges get ruined by sterilization with heat? I know this was a problem before stainless steel came in.

Aren't some surgical instruments,like amputation knives stropped? The ones used in the 18th.C. seemed to be. Being in a museum for 39 years,I tend to have seen more of that sort of surgical instrument. We made repros of period surgical instruments for the museum. We studied old amputation knives and blood letting lancets at the Smithsonian before reproducing them.

[Matt Z Wilson]

I probably should have been more clear, I'm referring to only modern medical instruments. It is my mistake if you are refering to historical examples. However we should be clear in our distinctions. My straight razor has a polished edge, my disposables not so much. Surgical steel is all stainless, mostly 440 but some 410 depending on the instrument. I've never seen a high carbon steel scalpel in modern use. Undoubtedly scalpels used historically were carbon steel. Previous surgeons also did not have the benefit of electrocauteries, and used a scalpel for all cutting maneuvers and therefore sharpened their own instruments and probably stropped them. I've never been in a situation where a "toothed" edge similiar to a kitchen knife would have been helpful. The cleanest cut and the most control possible are paramount. Medical sterilization is undertaken with high pressure, heat and steam and would ruin what most of us consider a well honed edge. Scalpel blades used in modern medicine are all disposable, due to the possibility of various rare infections that can survive the autoclave (a different topic entirely). In fact, most of them are made from the scrap from decomissioned Navy submarines because of their high quality and consistent steel. Amputations are usually done with an oscillating bone saw, another item that does not have a polished edge, merely a machined one. Bone chisels have a high angle of about 45 degrees and are sharpend the same way as disposable scalpel blades, ground on a high grit wheel. In this case is boils down to economics, polishing an edge on a medical tool that has to be disposed of anyway is not economically sensible, especially when the tool gets dull, it can be replaced in a few seconds.

[george wilson]

Yes,my observations ae mostly based on historic examples due to my museum tool maker background. I bought a brand new bone chisel off of ebay last year. It is VERY soft,and not real sharp.It is probably 410 stainless. I'll never use it,having experimented with it. Months later,a guy came into my shop who was modifying a bone chisel for someone,and we got into a discussion of their requirements as to edge,hardness,etc..I refused to re temper the tool for him due to liability should anything be wrong with the temper in a surgical application later,which I might not have qualified to be messing with.

I had done resharpening of iris scissors,bone chisels,and a few other tools for a surgeon friend. The cost of resharpening those items was very high if you sent them back. I felt more confident in that situation,with the surgeon's direct instructions as to what was needed. And,I wasn't re hardening anything.

The responsibility of working on tools that are going to actually be used on a human weighs heavily.

[Wilbur Pan]

Wilbur,you did notice that the edge became smoother with finer acting stones used?

Yes. Did you notice that the finest scratch pattern was left by the natural Japanese waterstone, which leaves a matte surface to the face of the bevel? The Shapton 15000 and 30000 grit stones, which leave a mirror finish on the tool, and which left coarser scratch patterns than the natural Japanese waterstone, have abrasive particles that are about the same size as stropping compound, so one can conclude that the Japanese waterstone leaves an edge at least comparable to one achieved with a strop, even though one looks polished and the other does not. That's also been my experience trying tools sharpened with both techniques.


Are you defending waterstones that you spent a lot of money on?

I don't know why you are resorting to calling my motives into question, since I've been trying to provide real data to this conversation, but for the record, the most I've ever paid for the three fine grit natural Japanese waterstones that I have is $110. Whether you think that's a lot of money is a matter of opinion, but it seems to be in line with other fine grit manmade waterstones on the market. The natural Japanese waterstone I like using the most cost me $60.

Look, I'm not saying you can't achieve a very sharp tool edge by polishing with a strop. What I am saying is that you can get an equally good edge on woodworking tools with other sharpening techniques that also happen to leave a non-polished appearance to the bevel of the tool. I don't understand why you insist on denying this. Your method of sharpening must be very good to get the results that you do. There are other methods that are just as good.

By the way, as a physician, I also use scalpels on a regular basis, although not daily like Matt does. At work today, I checked the OR stockroom to see where our scalpels are sourced from. Some are made in the US, some are made in Mexico, some are made in India, and some are made in China. They all work equally well. I also checked the edges with a microscope and they seem to be sharpened by a grinding process, as Matt said -- not polished.

So you may want to rethink your crack about non-polished Chinese made blades. They work quite well in a hospital setting, and there is nothing about being made in China that precludes quality manufacturing. I find such sweeping remarks to be a reflection of being quite ill-informed.

[george wilson]

My remark was a joke,Wilbur. As I discussed with the other surgeon,surgical instruments seem to be in a separate class of requirements. He admitted that their edges would not be regarded as good by woodworkers,and they did not last long.

Razor blades are stropped,but you completely ignore that. As far as what you want to do with your edges,have at it. You and I do not seem to think the same way,so we should stop debating,don't you think.

I am certainly not ill informed about woodworking tools.If you have followed my posts,and looked at my work,you could see that for yourself. I am putting you on my ignore list,so keep on with your rather unique opinions. I will not see any of your replies.

[Mike Henderson]

I am putting you on my ignore list,so keep on with your rather unique opinions. I will not see any of your replies.
Wow - that seems pretty extreme. Wilbur simply has a different opinion from you but has been polite in expressing his point of view. I've always found Wilbur to be reasonable and more than willing to listen to opposite points of view.

We all learn by hearing rational, reasonable points of view, especially when they differ from our views.

Mike

[george wilson]

Mike,I think you are a nice person,and do not mind debating with you. But for him to call me ill informed was ill informed of him. I have a very long record of work,and results that I stand upon. Let's all end this silly discussion.

[michael osadchuk]

I started out sharpening with King stones but was not satisfied with the results I was getting. I eventually wound up with Shapton stones and a couple of DMT diamond plates and am reasonably satisfied with the results I'm getting now.

But it's hard for me to know if my initial dissatisfaction was due to my lack of skill or to the stones. I still have the King stones and will go back and sharpen on them to see what difference I see now between the King and the Shaptons.

Sorry I can't answer your question but I'll do some investigation with what I have. I understand your point that your skill is constant across the use of the two stones.

Mike


Mike,

Maybe you can add another "data point" to the discussion, if you have very fine grit Shapton stones (say 16k or 30k). Have you noticed the degree of matte/vs. shiny or mirror finish such Shapton stones leave, especially if you have ever sharpening a blade on the King manmade stones and then continued on to the very fine grit Shaptons?


I ask the question out of 'almost idle' curiosity (smiley, realizing how 'vigorous' the discussion has been).
I have same or similar experience as Wilbur Pan regarding very fine grit Japanese natural polishing stones leaving a matte finish, after previous sharpening steps on King 4000 and 8000 grit stones leaving mirror finishes; the edge from the Japanese natural polishing stones, though noticeably more matte than mirror, appear to be a bit sharper (especially when planing very difficult wood or trimming end grain) and seems to leave a more durable edge.

thanks

michael

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,

Maybe you can add another "data point" to the discussion, if you have very fine grit Shapton stones (say 16k or 30k). Have you noticed the degree of matte/vs. shiny or mirror finish such Shapton stones leave, especially if you have ever sharpening a blade on the King manmade stones and then continued on to the very fine grit Shaptons?


I ask the question out of 'almost idle' curiosity (smiley, realizing how 'vigorous' the discussion has been).
I have same or similar experience as Wilbur Pan regarding fine very grit Japanese natural polishing stones leaving a matte finish, after previous sharpening steps on King 4000 and 8000 grit stones leaving mirror finishes; the edge from the Japanese natural polishing stones, though noticeably more matte than mirror, appear to be a bit sharper (especially when planing very difficult wood or trimming end grain) and seems to leave a more durable edge.

thanks

michael
Michael - the finest Shapton stone I have is an 8,000. My next down is a 5,000. It's funny, but I often get a better shine off of the 5,000 than I do off the 8,000. I think it's due to what Jim K. was pointing out. You see a black slurry form on the stone which is actually a mixture of steel and broken off stone. If you keep working on the stone, without cleaning the slurry off, you'll get a good shine on your edge. [side note: I find the 8,000 Shapton to be "sticky" meaning that the iron (especially when doing the back) will stick to the stone when pushing the iron across the stone. The 5,000 doesn't do that.]

Often, I stop at the 5,000 stone. But that does depend on the tool - a smoother iron seems to benefit from a really good, finely polished edge, while a chisel used for chopping does not.

Sometimes I'll hone with green paste on leather which gives a really good shine.

Mike

[george wilson]

Mike,does stropping get the edge sharper? Of course,it partly depends upon correct stropping technique,which I am sure you have.

I strop on the hair side of calfskin glued to a board.The green compound is fine. What I do is change angles as I strop to prevent the build up of tiny ridges,and further reduce the "mountain chain" on the edge of the tool. I do not strop long enough to round over the edge,and I think any kind of buffing wheel,leather or cloth,ruins the sharper edge I got by hand stropping. They keep a Tormek out at the Woodcraft store.I ruined my pocket knife's edge twice on their leather wheel. Now,I leave it alone.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,does stropping get the edge sharper? Of course,it partly depends upon correct stropping technique,which I am sure you have.

I strop on the hair side of calfskin glued to a board.The green compound is fine. What I do is change angles as I strop to prevent the build up of tiny ridges,and further reduce the "mountain chain" on the edge of the tool. I do not strop long enough to round over the edge,and I think any kind of buffing wheel,leather or cloth,ruins the sharper edge I got by hand stropping. They keep a Tormek out at the Woodcraft store.I ruined my pocket knife's edge twice on their leather wheel. Now,I leave it alone.
I sort of doubt if it does, George, and there's always the risk of dubbing the edge.

I do sharpen my carving tools on a powered leather wheel with that green paste and it works well. Of course, the primary angle on my carving tools is small so a bit of dubbing doesn't make the tool into a really high angle tool (for example, my primary angle may be 20* and the dubbing makes a 30* "microbevel"). And I just haven't found another way to sharpen carving tools as quickly and easily as that. Through time and experience I think I can control the dubbing somewhat - but it is always there.

But for plane irons and chisels, I prefer to use them straight off the stone.

Mike

[george wilson]

I know others that think dubbing results from stropping,and it does,if you don't use due care,and a minimum of stropping. Pfiel carving tools arrive with pretty sharp edges,but they are really dubbed from the factory use of buffing. I always have to redo their edges,though they are my favorite carving tools.

[Wilbur Pan]

Michael - the finest Shapton stone I have is an 8,000. My next down is a 5,000. It's funny, but I often get a better shine off of the 5,000 than I do off the 8,000.

Another funny thing/coincidence: today I picked up a replacement Hock blade for some Stanley planes I have, and used my Shaptons to get them sharpened up. I had exactly the same experience. The 5000 Shapton left a nice shine, the 8000 Shapton left an "oily" appearance to the shine.