A Couple of Plain Questions about Planes

[Art Davis]

After reading a couple of very interesting articles about planes in my last issue of FWW, I finally decided to make the move. Here are two questions I hope someone can help me with:

1. The "beginners" article I just referred to recommended starting with No. 4 smoothing and No. 5 Jack planes, both apparently going under the rubric of "bench planes." Do you also recommend these for starters? And just what does "bench plane" mean?

2. I don't want to lay out the dough for Lie-Nielsen or Veritas. In looking for a cheaper plane, I happened across my last Garret-Wade catalog in which they offered both Stanley and Groz for what I thought were reasonable prices. They went to some length to make a case for choosing the Groz over the Stanley for they were somewhat cheaper, were supposedly as good as the Stanleys, and had rosewood handles. So I go on-line to the Garrett-Wade web site and they don't seem to carry the Groz any longer. Rockler has them, but is backordering one of the planes. So---what do you think? Is the Groz as good as the Stanley, and where do I get them?

Any help on these two issues would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Art

[Michael Faurot]

1. The "beginners" article I just referred to recommended starting with No. 4 smoothing and No. 5 Jack planes, both apparently going under the rubric of "bench planes." Do you also recommend these for starters?


It all depends on what it is you're trying to accomplish. However, if the main gist is experimenting and learning, sure either will be good. An additional good starter is to have a nice block plane.



And just what does "bench plane" mean?
Someone that knows better may have a different definition, but from the way I see the term used it mostly refers to the Bailey style number planes (e.g., #4, #5, etc.).



2. I don't want to lay out the dough for Lie-Nielsen or Veritas. In looking for a cheaper plane, I happened across my last Garret-Wade catalog in which they offered both Stanley and Groz for what I thought were reasonable prices.
That's fine, but be prepared to put in some sweat equity to make it a usable plane. In short, what you get out of the box from a new Groz, Stanley, Anant, etc. is not going to be usable. It'll take some effort to make it usable. Search this list for other discussions on this.

You may want to think about your expectations from this. Are you interested in really diving in deep and doing whatever is necessary to make a cheap new plane into something usable? Same thing with a vintage plane, are you prepared to spend some time tinkering with it? Or are you more interested in actually taking a new tool (i.e., a plane) out of the box and immediately doing some work with it?

Ultimately it's a question of time vs. money and whether you've got the tenacity to make something work, or you just want to get on with it.

While the prices of new Lie-Nielsen and Veritas planes are more expensive than the Groz, Stanley, Ananat, etc., you will be getting a tool that's ready to work out of the box. You'll also be able to concentrate on actually using the plane and not trying to simulataneously figure out whether you've been able to get it tuned up correctly and figure out how to use it.



So---what do you think? Is the Groz as good as the Stanley, and where do I get them?
I started with a Groz, which I purchased from Woodcraft. It took quite a bit of work to get it into a usable tool for fine woodworking. If I was to do it all over again, I'd start with either a Lie-Nielsen or Veritas plane.

[Brian Kent]

Modern Stanley, Anant and Groz - not well enough made.

Old Stanley #4 and #5 - excellent starting place.

Any set should include a block plane.

Any planes or chisels need regular sharpening. See "Scary Sharp".

Welcome to Plane Old Excellence!

Brian

[Pedro Reyes]

Art,

Welcome to the slippery slope.

Those 2 (or even just one of them and a 60-1/2) are a great first pair. I'm not sure how the term bench plane came to be but if I am not mistaken they call them that only because they spend most of the time at the bench (as opposed to stored away like other specialty planes). so technically Stanley sizes 1-8 are bench planes.

I have no experience with Groz or the newer Stanley's. Stanley has recently come out with a "premium line", no experience there either. If you don't want to spend the money on a LN or LV, my recommendation would be to buy a pre-WWII Stanley off of Ebay. The problem with this is that you need to learn how to tune them and "fettle" them. This was not a problem for me but a nice rewarding experience, most of my planes are old Stanleys, I also own LN and LV and my Stanleys are up to par, the only difference being that LN and LV require minimum setup and honing.
There are a lot of posts here on how to "fettle", and some very helpful members as well. I do know that older Stanleys (late 1800s to mid 1900s) are much better than Groz or newer Stanleys (I'm not sure where the "premium line" of newer Stanley's stand but I've heard good first impressions).

/p

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I'd start with a block plane. They're so versatile, I found it a good place to 'cut my teeth' so to speak. I have a cheapo Footprint plane that has served me very well this past year.

The key is learning how to sharpen well. Everything else (ease of adjustability and other bells/whistles) is icing IMHO.

[Brian Kent]

One other piece of advice I'm glad I took was to buy a small block plane from Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen so you can hold and use an example of what a plane is supposed to be. That can be a graphic goal for your fettling of old planes.

An example would be a Lie-Nielsen #102 small block plane for $95 or a Lee Valley Veritas Apron Plane for $85.

[Jim Koepke]

Art,

Look for the FAQs sticky at the top of the Neanderthal Haven list. It has a lot of links to information on planes.

One of the most valuable skills a hand tool user can learn is the art of sharpening. It makes a world of difference.

I see you are kind of in the south end of the state. Up in the northern end of Oregon is the Pacific Northwest Tool Collectors, their site:

http://www.tooltimer.com/PNTC.htm

May be of help to find someone near you if you need some advice on a one to one level.

Everyone has their own preferences. My preference is to take my chances and buy old Stanley/Bailey planes, pre WWI. Some prefer the Bedrock style. Then, there are valid points as to why one should just bite the bullet and buy the top of the line Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen planes.

Back to the original point, no matter what you choose to buy, you will have to master the skill of sharpening to be satisfied with your planes.

The FAQs have links that will help you see what to do with the planes you have chosen. Rexmill is a good site for plane maintenance information. Even though it is geared toward old Stanley planes, the same needs to be done to just about any plane to bring it up to its potential.

My preference for the Bailey style is not because they are the best, they are plentiful and inexpensive. Some like other brands. I like to keep my hardware the same. Different makers used different specs for screw threads and such.

There are a few good brands to select from as there are a few dog brands that should be avoided.

If you have questions, please ask. Most of us love to offer our help and opinions.

jim

[George Clark]

Art,

Just remember you generally get what you pay for, especially when buying new hand planes. There is a very definite reason for those price differences and it's not because Thomas Lie-Nielson or Rob Lee are price gouging! I have been reading about hand planes for several years and have yet to read where anyone recommends a current production Stanley. If you can't handle the price of a Veritas or a Lie-Nielson go with an older Stanley. Two dealers who will tell you the truth and price fairly are Walt at Brass City and Sandy at Sydnas Sloot. I've had satisfactory dealings with both of them.

http://www.brasscityrecords.com/

http://www.sydnassloot.com/index.htm

Also Clint Jones, who frequents this forum, often has older Stanley's for sale.

With that being said I believe both Rob Lee and Thomas Lie-Nielson might recommend a low angle jack as your first or only plane. I know if I was starting to acquire planes from scratch that would be my first acquisition. I believe it to be the most versatile plane out there. It works great on end grain and great on a shooting board. For me, it's an acceptable substitute for both a smoother and a jointer. Its easy to have any cutting angle from about 37 degrees to 62 degrees just by how you sharpen the blade. Wild grain, no problem. It has an adjustable mouth for fine or coarse shavings. It just doesn't get any better than this for the single plane family, in my opinion. Food for thought, I hope.

George

[Tom Adger]

There are plenty of people out there that are willing to help you spend your money by recommending the LN or similar top of the line planes that are "ready to use out of the box". If you have plenty of discretionery money, and don't want to spend the time (and lose the satisfaction) of flattening the sole, getting the blade scary sharp, etc., then by all means spend the extra money. The economy these days needs for folks to spread it around.

[Phillip Pattee]

Art,
Another quite affordable alternative is to go the wood bodied plane route. The Mujingfang brand planes from Japan Woodworker are reasonably priced. Under the heading rosewood and ebony, the ones I am referring to are the rosewood planes. They have a good reputation as fine performing tools that do not require tuning to produce acceptable results. You could get a smoothing plane and a jack plane for about $70 total. you will also need a plane adjusting hammer if you go this route.

[Joel Goodman]

I would get a 5 or 5 1/2, either a LN #62 or LV BU Jack or an old type 10 - 15 Stanley. No need IMHO to get both a 4 and 5 to start. If you get the old Stanley get one from a reputable dealer (Sandy or Walt or someone else) and go for as good condition as possible and ask them to put a straight edge to the sole to get you a flat one and assume you may want to spend the $40 for a new Hock, LN or LV replacement iron.

[Johnny Kleso]

Pretty much all planes are Bench Planes execpt for Block planes..

But a Bench Plane is your basic plane you use on a work bench..
You will have a hard time planing wood with out a Bench and Planing Stop or Vise..

Besides buying a plane you need sharpening supplies like a flat surface like a Granite Floor tile and Wet/Dry Sandpaper and a Shapening Jig for tuning your blade.. A bench grinder is also a big help...


As far as stater plane the No.5 is at the top of the list and Collectable Tools at eBay is the best place to start..

Plane on spending about $50

You would want a Type 10-15 maybe 16 even to get a great plane but 18-19 are also OK if in fine condition...

Very light rust is OK but dont start with a badly rusted plane and bid your $51 and win your plane dont nickle and dime and get beat out a few seconds before auction ends like most folks do...

eBay.com> Buy > Collectibles > Tools, Hardware & Locks > Tools > Carpentry, Woodworking > Planes


I have a picturial type study at my website for you understand what types are.. www.rexmill.com (http://www.rexmill.com) > Planes 101 > Type Study

You might win your plane for as little as $25 so good luck

[whit richardson]

I'll just say this... I too was in that place and decided to start learning about how to buy decent old Stanleys on ebay (a process). One of the nicest planes I've used was Mike Dunbars old Stanley No. 5 he let me use during a workshop on hand planes. It did not look any better than any plane I bought on ebay but it was tuned up fine and worked great. You can have a very nice plane for under $60 -$70 even including a new Hock blade.
:D

[John Sanford]

The biggest secret to a successful foray into handplanes is to have a good example to serve as a benchmark. The good example can be a LN or LV plane, and often a Clifton. It could also be a properly tuned and fettled new Anant, Groz, Stanley, or no-name mystery plane. Or it could be a vintage plane that has been tuned and fettled, either by some long departed craftsman, or by one of the tool pushers that have been recommended, as well as others out there.

Finally, there is the last, and I believe, the best, "good example." A mentor. Somebody who already has finely tuned planes, and more importantly, is willing to teach you how to sharpen, and how to fettle, and how to use the blasted thing effectively and efficiently.

I strongly suggest that unless you have a mentor available, stay away from the crapshoot of low end planes, whether they be random E-bay iron, or the cheapo offerings from Anant, Groz, Stanley, etc. I'll venture that the difference in cost simply isn't worth the time and frustration. And yes, this even applies with the wonderful advice available here taken into consideration. There are a lot of folks here who are rich resources, yet all the advice and direction they could possibly provide pales in comparison to the value of hands-on mentoring.

Yes, you can go "lone wolf", and do it the hard way. Buy a cheapo plane (Stanley are being clearanced at Lowe's), read everything you possibly can on the subject of sharpening and fettling (hmmmm, how long do you think that'll take, eh?), go through the trial and error, fits and starts, and maybe get yours tuned up. And maybe get so frustrated with the process, in part because you won't really know whether the problems you're having stem from your lack of knowledge and skill, or a POS plane!, that you say "to heck with this, where's the tailed apprentices?"

There are plusses and minuses to approaches on both ends of the spectrum. Of course, there would be some plusses to the Navy starting its pilot training off by putting the newbies into the cockpit of an F-18 with one engine flaming out, and having them land on a carrier at night. :eek: Any pilot who made it would be one heckuva natural talent, or the luckiest man in the world.

So why doesn't the Navy do that? :rolleyes: Aside from the obvious, it's also 'cause they aren't invested in doing things the hard way just because.

Make an honest assessment of yourself, of how you learn new things, and why you want to start using handplanes. Put cost completely out of the picture. Decide if the challenge of puzzling out the nuances of getting something to work properly appeals to you, or if you need "positive results" throughout the process..

Once you've made the honest assessment, you'll know which direction to go, and you'll be able to make the right choice based on your values and character, not on anybody else's.

[Dave Samborski]

I would also be one to recommend buying and tuning up an older quality plane. Here's why:

There is such a valuable learning curve when cleaning/truing/tuning an old plane. You learn how each part fits (or possible doesn't) correctly in the body, how the blade gets supported by the bed or frog, the correct adjustment of each of the parts, how different sharpening angles feel while planing, etc., etc.

You gain a thorough understanding of how the plane works (or possibly why it doesn't). In my opinion, planes are fragile pieces that need respect and care to work properly. Tuning up an older plane gives you that knowledge. Take your time and learn all you can.

And when you save some money, you can always upgrade to the LN or LV, already knowing how to properly care for and use such a valuable and satisfying tool, and you'll be so much more the wiser woodworker.

[David Keller NC]

A bit of alternative advice - different for the reasons listed.

Your first planes - Depends on what you want to do. If you want to get away from finish sanding of boards directly off of your jointer/planer, you need a smoother - a #4 (either a L-N #4, a LV equivalent, or an old Stanely with a replaced Hock blade) is probably the single best one to start with. I would suggest staying away from bevel-up planes and the #4-1/2 sizes as a beginner. The bevel-up planes have their place, but they are not as easy to get a good lateral adjustment to the blade, nor as easy to figure out how much camber (curve) to the front of the iron is necessary to prevent them from digging in. The 4-1/2 size takes a significantly wider cut, and therefore takes much more effort to push and to get a correct lateral adjustment.

If you want to be able to surface boards that are too wide for your planer/jointer, you need 3 planes - a fore plane, a jointer plane, and a smoother. The fore plane (often a Stanley #6) is used to hog off wood quickly, and the blade is sharpened with a heavy curve (about a 10" radius). This one does the initial flattening of boards with cup/twist.

You follow the fore plane with a jointer - this is typically a Stanley #7 or #8. The long sole of this plane finishes flattening and truing the surface of the board, and allows you to "shoot" (straighten) the edges. The iron is tyically sharpened with a slight curve - on the order of a 30" radius circle.

Finally, and usually only for boards that will show in prominent places, you finish the surface with a smoother. This plane is short, and so will take a shaving across the entire surface of the board, even if it isn't perfectly straight. In fact, you can actually make a board non-straight by taking too many passes with this plane.

While a "jack plane" (a #5, typically) is a useful tool, I would not recommend it as a first purchase if your goal is to flatten/finish plane boards. A much better purchase, IMO, is a jointer and a smoother.

BTW - the terms "jointer", "fore" and "smoother" aren't defined strictly by the Stanley numbers. What they are defined by is the length relative to each other - a jointer is the longest plane, usually at least twice as long as the smoother. The fore plane is typically 2/3s the length of the jointer. What one does is match up the plane dimensions with the size of the stock that you want to work. In this way, a model-maker might choose a #3 as a fore plane, a #5 as a jointer, and a #2 as a smoother. A furniture maker working large case pieces would typically choose a #6 as a fore plane, a #8 as a jointer, and a #4 or even a #5 as a smoother.

Finally, regarding what to do about your first purchase - others on this thread have laid out your options (buy from L-N or L-V and learn to use a plane, buy an old Stanley, replace the blade with a good one from Hock, and learn to fettle planes, then learn to use them). However, I cannot emphasize enough that you're likely to run into trouble trying to get an old plane or a cheap new plane to work right unless you already know how a plane is supposed to work. For that, you really, really, need to contact a WW in your area that uses hand tools that can show you how to set one up, and let you use one that works correctly.

[Mark Roderick]

I agree with you 1000%. Someone getting into hand planes should buy one high-quality plane, and the block plane is a great way to start. That way, you'll know how a plane SHOULD work.

Imagine that you've never used a car before, and you decide to start inexpensively by buying something at the junkyard and trying to fix it up to make it work. You'd be far better off driving at least one relatively new car, so you'd know how they're supposed to run.

[Art Davis]

Thanks a lot, folks.

Lots of great info, and I will reread and ponder your suggestions.

Must admit, though, that I am still a bit bewildered.

I thought I would like to get away from covering everything in my shop with sanding dust. I like the idea of planing and think it would be simply more relaxing and rewarding than the brute force application of sanding tools.

---But, that said, I don't want to have to earn a Ph.D. in planer theory just to begin to use them. I would like to "ease into" the process, but I am getting the message that this approach just isn't possible, at least without a sizeable investment in an expensive plane (or set of planes). Problem with doing this, in my opinion, is that if I then find out I don't like using them, I'm stuck. At least I would then have to do something I don't like: advertise and find a buyer.

Art

[David Keller NC]

"But, that said, I don't want to have to earn a Ph.D. in planer theory just to begin to use them. I would like to "ease into" the process, but I am getting the message that this approach just isn't possible, at least without a sizeable investment in an expensive plane (or set of planes). Problem with doing this, in my opinion, is that if I then find out I don't like using them, I'm stuck. At least I would then have to do something I don't like: advertise and find a buyer."

Well, no - selling a Lie Nielsen or a Lee Valley plane is as easy as posting on the SMC classifieds section - you'll likely get about 80% of your money back.

Based on what you've noted is your motivation (getting away from finish sanding), then I'll change my recommendation. First, buy and learn to use and sharpen a scraper (a card scraper, not a scraper plane). The cool thing about these tools is that they're dirt cheap (about $5), it doesn't matter which way the grain is going with respect to your stroke, and they leave behind a superior surface to the pounded and filled surface left behind by a ROS.

Once you've had some practice with a card scraper and see what it can do, buy a smoothing plane - either a L-N #4, a LV equivalent, an antique Stanely, or even a wooden plane (though you will likely have to patch the throat if it's an antique - an EC Primus might be good inexpensive alternative).

I suspect that may convince you that it's worth having a few planes around for dealing with boards that won't fit your machines, and then you can go back and get a jointer and a fore plane if that's what you decide.

[Mark Roderick]

The primary purpose of using handplanes isn't to eliminate sanding dust. I almost always sand finished products, especially when using highly-figured wood (which makes the prettiest pieces). I use hand planes for a number of purposes:

--- For jointing pieces that are too wide or bulky for a machine jointer.

--- For putting the final, perfect edge on boards that are to be glued up (e.g., a table top), better than you'll get from any machine.

--- For final fitting of joints, where you can take off just a shaving or two as a machine never could.

--- For doing things like curved edges or chamfers, faster and with less dust and noise than I could do setting up a router.

--- Occassionally, for putting the final "finish" on a board, in lieu of sanding.

--- For impressing girls.

Once you start using planes for these purposes, as I think most serious hobbyist woodworkers do, there's really no question of "going back," because you can't replace the functionality of the hand plane with anything else. That's why woodworkers continue to use hand planes, even in this age of power-assisted tools. It's not because of some desire to get back to nature or anything like that.

I think you should buy and read The Handplane Book, really an essential "tool" for anyone interested in using hand planes effectively.

[James Owen]

Art,

Here are some ideas for you to consider:

Before you spend any money, I suggest that you do a bit more research than just one "beginners" article. That additional research will give you a better idea of what is available -- both styles of planes, as well as brands -- and what a hand plane can do for you. Planecraft, Garrett Hack's Handplane Book, Mike Dunbar's Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Woodworking Tools, the archives here on SMC, and Cian Perez's site are all good places to start.

As a couple of other people have mentioned, you'll need to decide what you want to use your plane(s) for: chair building has different tool requirements than building high-boys, for example. What you anticipate building will help determine what plane(s) you need.

What is your budget? Keep in mind that you really do get what you pay for. A premium plane will work right out of the box, but at a higher cost. A non-premium or a vintage plane will most likely require some tuning to get its best performance, but can save you considerable money; even so, it may not be up to what you need it to do.

If you can't find a mentor and don't want to spend the money on a premium plane, at least try to get to a good woodworking tool store and test drive a quality plane (i.e., LN/LV, etc.) so you have an idea of what a proper hand plane is capable of doing. With a bit of luck, there will be someone in the store that is knowledgeable of hand planes to help you.

What sizes/which planes? As others have mentioned, that depends on what you want to accomplish with them, and how many planes your budget will allow. For Bailey-style metal planes and "general purpose" woodworking, here are a few ideas that you might find useful:


One plane only: it would be a toss up between an low angle adjustable mouth block plane and a #5-1/2. The LA BP is useful for all sorts of jobs and gets used on nearly every project in my shop. On the other hand, a #5-1/2 works well as a jack plane, a short jointer, and a long smoother, and with a very sharp iron, makes a good shooting board plane for trimming end grain. (FWIW, it's a toss up between the #4-1/2 and the #5-1/2 which is my favorite bench plane, with the #6 also running close.....) A couple of fairly well-known guys like David Charlesworth, Rob Cosman, and Chris Schwarz also like the #5-1/2....


Two planes: #5-1/2 and LA BP, for the reasons stated above.


Three planes: Add a jointer (#7 or #8).


Four planes: Add a smoothing plane -- a #4 or #4-1/2.

What kind of planes? Bailey-style metal planes are probably the best known and most common, but there are other choices: New or vintage Western style wooden planes (inexpensive to very, very expensive). Japanese or Chinese style wooden planes (someone else mentioned the Mujingfang rosewood planes as being very nice; I can second that, and they are very reasonably priced); Japanese planes are frequently rather pricey and can be difficult for a beginner to set up. Traditional and newly-manufactured infill planes (somewhat specialised and very pricey to "I can buy a house for that much money" expensive....) will usually give you very good to superb performance and will almost always suck all the cash out of your wallet. Shop-made planes are a usually inexpensive alternative, but it often takes a try or two to get one to perform that way it should. And finally, back to the beginning, with new or vintage Bailey-style metal planes; LN/LV, and Clifton all make high quality premium planes, with price tags to match. The new line of Woodcraft planes appear to be pretty decent for a reasonable price, but they do have some relatively minor and easy-to-fix QC problems (NOTE: I am a part time Woodcraft employee; see my other posts under the Wood River plane threads for details and my evaluation of the WR planes.). Finally most pre-WWII Stanley, Millers Falls, and Sargent bench planes are usually reasonably-priced, of much higher quality than the currently-manufactured Stanley, Anant, Groz, and hardware store house brands, and can normally be restored and tuned up to very fine performance.

So.....decisions, decisions...... I suspect that once you try a well-functioning hand plane or two on a project, you'll find that you like (maybe even really like) using it/them, like what they do for your wood, and will see that you really don't need a PhD in Planeology to effectively use what many of us here in The Cave consider to be our favorite tool..... So what the heck, jump on in and get yer feet wet!!! And here's a nice big friendly shove to help you over the edge and get you started down the slippery slope!!! :cool:

At any rate, have fun making your decision(s); it's pretty hard to go really, really wrong.

[Rick Malloy]

Art, I'm not much on following the beginner advice so I did not go out and get a "good plane" when I decided to break down and start doing non power tool work. Instead I bought a Groz Jack Plane from Woodcraft. Here is what I found:
1) you will need sharpening stones, and not just one. I got a fine stone and went back to get an extra coarse and extra fine also (It took hours to flatten the badly ground Groz blade using just a fine stone) I also got the veritas jig, I would recommend a decent jig also
2) Groz blades are not sharp and need a LOT of work to get right, at least mine did
3) Groz planes do not have perpendicular sides, so if you are planning on using them for shooting you will have to take this into account or go for a better plane
4) Don't start playing with planes unless you have the resources to fund it. There is a satisfaction that comes with working wood with a hand tool that makes you want to unplug those power tools. And wood dust from those power tools can be hazardous to your health, but wood shavings don't bother you at all

All said and done though, after I got it reasonably set up I was very happy with what I was able to do as a novice. I used this on a top I made of several 1x boards and planed it down nicely. I also learned enough during this experience to make my old stanley block plane an excellent (in my not so educated opinion) plane. And I even got an old Buck block plane to actually work semi decently but I still would not care if it went missing.

I wanted to try doing dado and rabbet work and settled on the Veritas router plane at 3x the cost of the Groz. I was impressed enough with the plane that my next purchase is most likely their low angle smooth plane.

I will probably keep my Groz plane for a very long time, maybe because it is my first big plane (not a small block plane bought for shaving down doors), or maybe because I was able to make it work fairly good.

I know I will not likely buy another Groz plane though. I will buy a Veritas plane again, and will probably end up with a Lie-Nielsen in the future (overtime, overtime, keep working overtime).