robland j/p bogging down

[Andy Pratt]

I recently upgraded my robland/laguna 12" jointer/planer to a byrd head and had a few issues someone might be able to shed some light on for me.

1. The motor bogs down and feeding stops when taking anything but the lightest passes on wider stock. Thin stuff it's not so much an issue, but still not where I want it. I haven't measured, but I think I'm not only able to consistently take 1/32" off per pass. Could I not have the motor belts properly tensioned, or should I replace them? The machine took huge passes with the old cutterhead, so I'm inclined to think it's something I did in the changeover. I've also read that the byrd head takes more power and needs smaller cuts, but this is a huge before/after depth difference. I've taken deep cuts off on the jointer function with the new head (to test) and do not have any bogging issues there, so perhaps it's something with the feed rollers? Lots of possibles here and I'm confused.

2. At the end of each board I plane, the board gets cocked to the side abruptly as it's coming out (presumably after the infeed roller disengages). This isn't issue-causing, but it might be indicitave of somethinge else that's an issue. I also get excessive snipe on occasion, generally much deeper on one side of the board than the other. Now that I'm writing all this I'm inclined to think the outfeed roller isn't exerting enough downward pressure, does that sound right?

I'm extremely happy with the finish the new head provides and the machine has made my life a lot nicer. It's useable and I've made a bunch of projects with it the way it is, but I wouldn't mind fine-tuning out the issues I've been having.

Thanks,
Andy

[Mike Wilkins]

You may have answered your own question. My first impression of your concern was with the outfeed roller. Next I would check the table itself to make sure no gunk or pitch has built up, which could invite resistance to a smooth ride. Since it only occurs in the planer mode that is where I would concentrate my efforts. Also check the infeed roller for built up chips and pitch, especially if you plane any softwoods. My infeed roller got gunked up after planing a run of pine, and it is no picnic cleaning off that mess.

[george wilson]

The Byrd head should take LESS power,since only a few of the small cutters are engaged in the wood at any time,VS a full width knife. Look for some error you have made.

[glenn bradley]

I feel the same as George but all reports I've come across say more power is required for the spirals as they never break contact with the material(?). It seems that it all happens so fast that the smaller cutter should be easier to run but, maybe "they" are right. Have you contacted Byrd?

[Frank Martin]

Don't quote me on this but I also think I heard that the spiral heads require more power. I think this was the reason behind why it is taking Jet such a long time to offer a spiral head 12" combo version as well.

Given all this one thing I never understood is the recent appearance of spiral heads for lunch box planers given the low power direct drive motors they have....

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

motor boggs down?

Are the inserts on facing the right way out?
Are the inserts sharpened? Worse defects have slipped past QC guys the world over.

I'd take a long hard look at the drive mechanism.

Maybe something is amiss after the conversion to the helical head.

[Andrew Duncan]

I read your earlier post about converting your Robland to the Byrd head. I also have a Robland and have thought about doing this a few times. After reading your earlier post, I decided not to based on the struggles you had and your equivocal assessment of the project. I'm very sorry to hear that the difficulties go on.

Perhaps the problem you now have relates to this sentence in your earlier post: "The byrd cutterhead is slightly larger in diameter than the stock one, and you have to adjust the rollers accordingly or the machine will not work, as the cutterhead will hit the wood before the rollers grab it." Is it possible following your adjusting the rollers that they are bottoming out on their springs before you're getting to the depth of cut you used to get? That is to say, maybe the rollers are now adjusted too low in relation to the cutter head. I'm guessing that my rollers are less than 1/16" below the cutter head blades and have a spring travel rate of nearly 1/2" up.

If this theory is correct, perhaps the machine bogs down because the friction between the table and the rollers gets too high before your getting the cut you should have.

Best of luck.

[Dave Sabo]

3 HP , which is the Robland motor size is plenty of power for a 12" planer. You have confirmed this with your jointer passes. You have alignment and or geometery issues with the new head and the Robland drive works.

[Rod Sheridan]

Chipbreaker, pressure bar, anti-kickback pawls, drive rollers all need adjusting to manufacturers specifications if the cutting circle has changed. (You'll have to look at the drawings/specifications for your machine).

This often happens when people sharpen knives and don't reset the knives to the correct projection.

Obviously since you changed the cutterhead, this needs to be looked at.

If the cutterhead is larger (which I believe you indicated it is) then if the other items haven't been looked at, you're probably bgging down the machine with a deep cut.

Once all of the above have been verified/adjusted, check belt tension and condition.

Regards, Rod.

[Andy Pratt]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I agree that the motor size is definitely not the issue and whether the byrd head takes more power or not, I should at least be able to get the thickness on the planer that I can do on the jointer.

Andrew, thanks a lot for taking the time to read both posts, your comment was thought provoking. I don't believe the springs are bottoming out though, as moving the allen bolts down (underside of the infeed bearings, opposite the spring pressure) actually increased the amount of travel they have. I think this is the right area to be looking though.

Let me run this thought by everyone: Say I didn't lower the infeed/outfeed rollers enough when I adjusted the machine to take into account the larger diameter cutterhead. That, or with the new, larger distance the springs extend to, the springs aren't strong enough to keep the rollers in contact with enough pressure. So, the board goes in and there isn't the amount of downward/forward pressure necessary to keep pushing the board through against the backward force of the cutterhead. Would that explain things?

I wanted to be more descriptive with my term "bogging down" in case the details provide any clues to anyone. What is happening is that the audible pitch of the machine changes dramatically (sounds like it's winding down), then the board stops being moved by the rollers and I honestly don't know if the cutterhead is stopped at this point or not (probably should check). The motor is still running until I turn it off and readjust, retry. Another possible indicator: On stock thinner than 1/2", the planer performance is very shaky. The thinner I get the more likely the following are to happen: board slides backward a little during feeding and requires manual assisstance (pulling) to get through, excessive snipe, excessive "cocking" of the last end of the board.

Based on the good feedback you guys have been giving, I'm increasingly confident we might actually get this figured out. It would be nice to have it functioning perfectly. Once I hear back on this last info I'll start pulling it apart again to have another go at it.

Thanks,
Andy

[Paul Murphy]

I think Rod Sheridan has hit on the solution, if the cutting circle has changed at all.

It sounds like you need to adjust your chip breaker and pressure bar relative to the new cutting circle bottom dead center to reduce their friction on the wood. Also adjust the height of the feed rollers relative to the new cutting circle to help it feed properly. Finally, as an initial guess, you may need to adjust feed roller spring preload by the same dimension that your cutting circle has changed.

I think the Byrd head has the cutters slightly skewed, which would impart some side force on the board. Can you feel this using the jointer on a board not touching the fence? Like you, I think the outfeed roller and spring preload adjustment will likely help.

Were you getting snipe before the cutterhead change? If not, then snipe at the beginning of feed relate to the infeed roller and chipbreaker not being adjusted to the new cutting circle. Snipe at the end of feed would then relate to the pressure bar and outfeed roller/associated spring preload.

Good luck, and let us know what you find!

-Paul-

PS Just went a similar adjustment project, so I can relate. Relax and take your time, you'll get it figured out!

[Paul Murphy]

Andy, forgot to add a link that I found very helpful:

http://wiki.owwm.com/Getting%20Peak%20Planer%20Performance.ashx
http://wiki.owwm.com/GetFile.aspx?File=GettingPeakPlanerPerformance/fig1.jpg

[Paul Murphy]

Based on what Andrew Duncan wrote about how the Robland feed spring preload adjusters are constructed, I’m wondering if it might be necessary to shim the springs to obtain proper preload?

[Andy Pratt]

Paul, great idea on shimming the springs. I was thinking I would have to find new springs, but they are captive in a deep recess so I'll just get some appropriately sized washers and make up any difference I adjust them down with those, that will eliminate that part as a potential problem area since pressure will be exactly the same as it was before the changeover. Anyone know a good source for precisely made washers? I won't even both trying the hardware store ones, as I can see the thickness difference with my eye.

I'm confused on the chipbreaker and pressure bars in the diagram. Unless I'm mistaken my machine has neither of those. I have the anti-kickback fingers, of course, but the bar they rest on is not adjustable. They seem to function as the board can slide back a tiny bit but never actually comes out, so I'm not overly worried there.

I assume the chipbreaker is meant to reduce the amount of wood that can be snapped off toward the end of a board if the planer is taking off large passes? Is the pressure bar just there to provide another pressure point to offset snipe?

Thanks,
Andy

[Paul Murphy]

Chip breaker primarily limits the length of chip/tearout, but also helps dampen vibration of the board, and slightly help control leading edge snipe.

Pressure bar primarily dampens vibration of board, and helps reduce trailing edge snipe.

Some planers are built without chip breaker or pressure bar, I don’t know about the Robland though.

Link for shim washers, and for slide in shims. I was going to buy some of these, but ended up cutting up feeler gauge sets because it was quicker.

http://www.washersusa.com/shim.html (http://www.washersusa.com/shim.html)

http://www.reliabilitydirectstore.com/Service-Shim-Kits-p/acc-service_shim_kit.htm (http://www.reliabilitydirectstore.com/Service-Shim-Kits-p/acc-service_shim_kit.htm)

[Rod Sheridan]

Paul, great idea on shimming the springs. I was thinking I would have to find new springs, but they are captive in a deep recess so I'll just get some appropriately sized washers and make up any difference I adjust them down with those, that will eliminate that part as a potential problem area since pressure will be exactly the same as it was before the changeover. Anyone know a good source for precisely made washers? I won't even both trying the hardware store ones, as I can see the thickness difference with my eye.

I'm confused on the chipbreaker and pressure bars in the diagram. Unless I'm mistaken my machine has neither of those. I have the anti-kickback fingers, of course, but the bar they rest on is not adjustable. They seem to function as the board can slide back a tiny bit but never actually comes out, so I'm not overly worried there.

I assume the chipbreaker is meant to reduce the amount of wood that can be snapped off toward the end of a board if the planer is taking off large passes? Is the pressure bar just there to provide another pressure point to offset snipe?

Thanks,
Andy

Andy, not being familiar with the Robland, I included information on the chip breaker/pressure bar.

If your machine doesn't have either, it is the typical Euro planer design.

If you increase the diameter of the cutter head, the drive rollers will have to be lowered to compensate, as they need to be a few mm below the cutter circle, with no wood in the machine.

If your rollers cannot be lowered, you'll have to make suitable changes to your machine to either increase the roller diameter, or lower them.

If your rollers are in the original position, and for sake of argument, your new cutter head is 1/2" in diameter larger, your planer will try to take 1/4" minimum depth of cut. (Rollers are now above cutter circle).

Regards, Rod.

[Andrew Duncan]

Any luck yet?

[Andy Pratt]

I'm midway through a project for a customer so I'm holding off on changing anything until that is out the door, I'll probably be able to take it apart in the 2-3 weeks and I'll update the thread then.

Thanks,
Andy

[Andy Pratt]

Well, I see in revisiting my old thread that I had hoped to work on this problem in 2-3 weeks. Now, almost 4 years later, I am actually getting around to it. In my defense I have been running the business full time in the meantime, and never had the right combination of free time and motivation to work on it again until now. I took the machine apart today and have some new information that may shed some light on the problem.

I verified the infeed/outfeed roller settings that paul provided in his (helpful) diagram and I believe I am spot on. Both rollers are 1/32" below the lowest point that any of the teeth pass by. I checked this a few times to make sure.

I think I already mentioned it above, but this jointer/planer combo doesn't have a chipbreaker or pressure bar, so nothing to check on those settings.

Today I deliberately tried to plane too much off some stock, with the cover of the machine off so that I could see what was going on inside. When the machine stops planing there is a distinct change in the sound, and all moving parts stop moving. The motor keeps making a fairly loud humming noise, but I can confirm that the shaft coming out of the electric motor is not turning, so it's not a belt/linkage issue. Is it safe to say that the motor is being overloaded and internally tripping itself? There is no reset button on it or the machine, but the only way to get it back going is to turn the machine off/on so that could be the case.

I got actual measurements on what I can and can't do to help anyone trying to diagnose it. My test board was an 8"wide by 3' long piece of pre-jointed/planed white pine left over from a previous project. When I tried to take a 1/8" deep cut the planer stopped before the board even hit the outfeed roller. When I tried to take a 1/16" cut the planer stopped after about a foot and a half. When I tried to take a 1/32" cut the planer functioned adequately but sounded weak toward the end.

The listed capacity for this planer is 4mm, which works out to roughly 1/6". Even assuming the manufacturer ratings are optimistic (like they usually seem to be), I feel that I am getting nowhere near the cut capacity I should from an industrial grade 3hp motor. Do you guys think my motor is underperforming? Could there be a self protection switch in the motor that is functioning too soon (I have run it to the stopping point probably a hundred times over the last years of having to work with it like this). I realized that my earlier comments on being able to take more off with the jointer function than the planer are invalid because my hand feed rate with the jointer is much slower than the feed rate of the planer.

If anyone has any thoughts please let me know. If I need to get a new motor I'll just do it, but I hope I can be fairly certain of it before buying one.

Thanks,
Andy

[Paul Murphy]

Andy, I don't have any experience with shelix cutterheads, but I am hopeful we can get this figured out as there is a lot of expertise within the members here. That said, my replies to you are in red, and represent logical steps to investigate. I hope others can help refine the investigation, and with a little care we can get your machine working properly.

I verified the infeed/outfeed roller settings that paul provided in his (helpful) diagram and I believe I am spot on. Both rollers are 1/32" below the lowest point that any of the teeth pass by. I checked this a few times to make sure.
Andy, that diagram is somewhat “generic”, and probably you should substitute adjustment specifications from Robland and Byrd in your setup. It is a great picture though, and helps visualize how everything has to be coordinated in order to properly work together.

Today I deliberately tried to plane too much off some stock, with the cover of the machine off so that I could see what was going on inside. When the machine stops planing there is a distinct change in the sound, and all moving parts stop moving. The motor keeps making a fairly loud humming noise, but I can confirm that the shaft coming out of the electric motor is not turning, so it's not a belt/linkage issue.
I worry you may have overloaded your motor often enough and by a high enough factor to do damage. A larger motor service company can check it for current draw and measured output. Also, over at woodweb there are quite a few folks who have said the Byrd heads do indeed require more horsepower. If your motor is damaged, perhaps a 5hp replacement would help. Some other things that might help are slowing the feed speed by changing pulley diameter [or similar method] if possible. I also wonder if your larger diameter cutterhead is adding to the motor workload, and/or if something is wrong with the feed mechanism causing excess power requirements.

The listed capacity for this planer is 4mm, which works out to roughly 1/6".
In addition to power requirements, depth of cut can also be limited by cutter projection. If you take a deep enough cut fed quickly enough, the un-planed surface can contact the “inner” surface diameter of the actual cutterhead before the next row of cutters can begin cutting.

At the end of each board I plane, the board gets cocked to the side abruptly as it's coming out (presumably after the infeed roller disengages). This isn't issue-causing, but it might be indicitave of somethinge else that's an issue. I also get excessive snipe on occasion, generally much deeper on one side of the board than the other. Now that I'm writing all this I'm inclined to think the outfeed roller isn't exerting enough downward pressure, does that sound right?
I’m guessing outfeed roller pressure is uneven from one side to the other, and/or outfeed roller pressure needs to be increased.

[Erik Loza]

Andy, I have never personally worked on a Robland J/P but my gut reaction is that adjustment of the outfeed pressure roller is the culprit. This especially jives since it sounds like you had the cutterhead pillars apart for the head swap. I would back the pressure all the way out on both sides of the roller, then start creeping down on them (equilaterally, of course...) and see how that changes things. Yes, motor power could be a factor but if anything, the Byrd head ought to require less torque to spin than a standard cutterhead. Also, for whatever reason, combined jointer/planers in particluar seem to be especially helped by a good coating of wax on the planer table. Possibly you know this already.

Best of luck with it,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Andy Pratt]

Paul, eric, thanks for the continued effort to help. I'll try to respond to everything in the order you guys mentioned it, then I have some pictures of the motor below.

I haven't been able to find any guidelines online from byrd as far as infeed/outfeed roller settings. Maybe I will try to call them on Monday.

Slowing the feed rate with smaller pulleys is definitely a good idea. If it came down to choosing, I would much rather have a larger depth per cut and a slower feed rate than my current set up. It would be way more efficient that way (given time walking around the machine for multiple light passes), so I'll keep the pulley option in mind if I can't solve the problem any other way.

I'll skip the two points on motor overload and address them in my next post with the motor pictures.

The point you made on cutter projection was very interesting and I immediately wondered if that was my problem. I took some measurements and determined that the cutterhead rotates roughly 12 times per inch of feed rate. Looking at the geometry of the blades and the metal behind them (registry stops) and taking an educated guess based off that info, I don't think the phenomenon you mentioned could be causing an issue here, but it was certainly worth looking into.

I agree that I might need to increase the outfeed roller pressure to help cut down on the snipe. The spiral head does tend to skew the boards in one direction, and that is always the way it happens when I experience snipe. I've since learned to manually hold the end of the board down on my final pass (which works since the snipe is rarely severe).

Erik, I don't think the outfeed roller can be the problem because the 1/8" deep pass I attempted made the motor stall before the end of the board even touched the outfeed roller. Friction on the planer table is certainly a factor and I notice a slight increase in performance after I have lubricated it (I use boeshield on it a few times a year). Even right after lubricating, it's more an improvement on the order of 10% or so though, so the main problem still exists at those times.

Motor pictures will follow in the post I'll do immediately after this one

[Andy Pratt]

252575252576252577252578252579252580
I don't have much motor knowledge, but nothing looks obviously damaged to me except the fan. I purchased the machine used and couldn't see the fan side of the motor without removing it, which I had never done until now. I'll have to get a replacement fan since the fins on this one are shot. This could have caused extra load/heat on the motor over time and possibly caused damage, although none appears obvious (I don't know what to look for except melted wires/burns so let me know what you think on that). Maybe a motor can be damaged and not show physical problems in the windings, I don't know. The motor will shut down if too large a pass is taken within a minute after starting the machine cold, so I don't think fan is causing an overheating protection with my current issue, but it certainly could be a weak motor that has developed over time after being run too hot, if that is something that happens.

I'm out of my league in analysing this though, hopefully someone with more electrical motor knowledge sees something from these pictures that I don't.

Thanks,
Andy

[Peter Aeschliman]

Somebody cited Jet's delay in offering the spiral heads in their 12" J/P machine earlier on in this thread in 2009. I seem to remember other threads on this topic, or perhaps other mentions, where members of this board talked to Jet about what the hold up was. I remember their answer being that it wasn't a simple matter of swapping out the head- they needed to slow down the feed rate.

Sure enough, I looked at Jet's owners manual online. Both their helical head and their standard knife machines have a cutterhead speed of 5,500 RPM, and they seem to use the same motor (3 HP 12.5 amp). But the feed rate on the helical head machine is 12 feet per minute, whereas the straight knife machine is 20 feet per minute.

So I think it's time to get out your calculator and figure out what sized feed pully you need. Probably fair to assume Jet's engineers did all of the testing for you. They reduced the feed rate by 40%, so perhaps that's what you should shoot for.

Just a thought.

Oh, I have the more budget-oriented Laguna 10" spiral cutterhead machine, and I too find that waxing the tables is vital. Generally I get out the Johnson's Paste Wax at the beginning of every big project.

[Paul Murphy]

Andy, once again my replies to you are in red.

I haven't been able to find any guidelines online from byrd as far as infeed/outfeed roller settings. Maybe I will try to call them on Monday.
Andy, I would use the Robland infeed/outfeed roller settings unless Byrd has specific reccommendations to modify those settings.

Slowing the feed rate with smaller pulleys is definitely a good idea. If it came down to choosing, I would much rather have a larger depth per cut and a slower feed rate than my current set up.
Peter has posted some really useful information on % feed rate reduction.

Erik, I don't think the outfeed roller can be the problem because the 1/8" deep pass I attempted made the motor stall before the end of the board even touched the outfeed roller.
This is a helpful observation, but did cause me to consider one other [remote] possibility: At some larger depth of cut your infeed roller [infeed roller due to your observation] can reach the limit of travel, and then stock can only be fed if the wood compresses or the roller deforms. Just to be safe make sure your feed roller has adequate travel to accommodate your intended depth of cut.

I don't have much motor knowledge, but nothing looks obviously damaged to me except the fan.
I don't have much motor knowledge either, but an industrial motor service can check a motor for current draw and I think some will have a dynomometer to test for rated output. Some motors are capacitor start, some capacitor run, and so there may be a capacitor and centrifugal switch to check. I have a well equipped service near me, and they have checked a couple motors for me. Probably someone here can offer better suggestions on the motor.

[Erik Loza]

Andy, one idea I want to float out there after looking at your motor. It's an Italian 50Hz motor (we run on 60Hz frequency here in the US, as you probably know...), so it is automatically running 20% faster, with zero load, just idling and that can build up heat. Also, it's an S6/40% motor. That is an "IEC Duty Cycle" (IEC is one of the many European standardization agencies). The "S6" refers to to duty cycle and that particular designation is "Continuous operation with intermittent load". Here is a good link...

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/iec-duty-cucles-d_739.html

...The 40% means that the motor can run under full load for no more than 40% of the time before it generates enough heat to shut itself down. There is nothing wrong with S6/40% motors: They are common in woodworking machines (we use them) but if you couple that with, for example, a couple of extraneous factors such as "running a 50Hz motor at sixty cycles" and also possibly, some excessive drag from a different issue in regards to the pressure rollers, I can see enough heat being built up quickly enough to really spike the motor heat and cause it to shut down. And, as if that were not enough, 230v motors will run OK at 220v but the amp draw (and heat buildup) really climbs as you move much below that. For example, if you are getting something like 208v to the motor, irrespective of anything else, that in and of itself will put heat into any 230v motor.

Obviously, I am not there and just floating ideas in the air but those are all things I have seen cause their own issue with Euro machines in the past. I still think there is something going on with your pressure rollers but two real important questions:

1.) How mas the machine running before any of this?
2.) Have you ever taken a voltage reading at the machine connection and then, and amp reading at the motor when under load?

Those could be real important clues. Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Andy Pratt]

Thanks again for the replies everyone, I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere.

Peter, that's great info on the JET feed rate reduction for the spiral head. I can't imagine any company downgrading their planer feed rate that much without a really sound reason, so that info all by itself tells us a lot. Unless I run across a more simple solution, I may end up just changing the pulley diameter.

Paul, great point on the infeed roller reaching the limit of its spring travel. Again, I thought "maybe that's it" and ran down to the shop to check. I put a block under it and pried up gently on the roller with a trim bar while watching the end of the bar within the pillow block. Turns out it has 1/4" or more of free travel (I didn't measure precisely once I saw that it was more than 1/8"). So, that wasn't it but you're definitely keeping me thinking along the right lines.

On the line of capacitors: Just prior to this posting I had a chance to speak with someone with a lot of electrical motor knowledge. I described everything to him and his first thought was probably a motor that was not functioning on all poles due to windings having melted together from previous overload. The key thing to him in saying that was that the motor kept humming after it stopped. When I mentioned that the machine had a control box he had me open that up and send him a picture. After he looked at it he told me that there are two capacitors in this system (picture below, capacitors are on the right hand side, you can only see one but they are identical, grey vertical tubes) and a "contacter" sometimes called a relay. For various complicated reasons, he said either one could also be causing the issue I am encountering. The capacitors are cheap to replace, and the relay reasonably cheap also, so replacing those first is one option if I have to start throwing parts at it.

Erik, you make a good point about the 50hz vs 60hz. I was aware of that increasing the operating speed, and I've been wondering along the same lines as you: do I have a bunch of minor to medium factors that are all contributing their share to create a major issue? If the feed rate at 50hz is listed at 20 fpm, then I'm really running it at 24 at 60hz. If we take the JET feed rate reduction for the spiral as valid across all machines, then that means I could be running a feed rate which is twice what it really should be for my cutterhead/motor set up. I doubt a new pulley would be too expensive, so I'm really getting interested in trying that out as a test. There is actually a guy with a metal shop next door, maybe I'll see if he can just make me something tomorrow.

To answer eric's questions:
1. I only ran a few boards through the machine before upgrading to the spiral head, but It was definitely taking 1/8" passes off at least 8" wide soft maple before I changed to the byrd head. I recall being very impressed with how much it would take and thinking that most 4/4 boards would only take a pass or two to get down to 3/4 after jointing the opposing face. I wish, in retrospect, that I had done a more thorough control group. Maybe someone else with a factory head on this J/P with a CEG 3hp motor could comment on their capacity with it.
2. I have not taken those readings. I own a multimeter but to be honest I don't really know what I'm doing with it and need to find a guy to walk me through the settings and what/where/when you attach each probe to what. I have only used it for the most basic functions so far and I'll have to learn more about it (I guess this is the time) before I want to start poking the leads around on a running 230v machine. You make a valid point, I should really know those things before taking any permanent action.

Thanks again for the help everyone. I'll check the thread a time or two during the day tomorrow and then try to update it by the end of the day when I have some new info.

[Andy Pratt]

252592
forgot the picture of the control box: capacitors are on the right, contacter (sometimes called relay) is the grey breaker looking thing in the upper middle. All the mess on the left and right sides are the various items on the outside switch (on/off, reverse, lock out, emergency off). They sure didn't make it a simple wiring job did they? Probably a mess because it was originally designed to go with the x31 combo machine, probably a lot of the extra stuff is from that, if I had to guess.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Andy, your motor is probably a capacitor start/capacitor run motor, which is why it has 2 X 50 microfarad capacitors.

These are run capacitors, not the inexpensive common bipolar electrolytic variety used for starting duty, please make sure you get run capacitors..

If the run capacitor is open, your motor will not be using the start winding during normal operation, and motor power will be reduced, and if the motor stalls, it won't be able to restart.

The value of capacitor is critical, do not substitute one with a different capacitance.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Andy, one quick note on the electrical, not knowing what your multimeter is, I would bet that you need a clamp style ampmeter to check the amp draw. Multimeters amp ratings are usually very low. The multimeter will work fine for checking voltages though.

[Andy Pratt]

Still working on this today so I'll be quick now and write more later. Rod, I noticed that the motor plates says "50 uf" and that my control box contains (2) 40uf capacitors. If i understand what I have read on the internet correctly, these are run capacitors not start capacitors (as you stated) and are therefore working together to provide a total of 80 uf capacitance. I don't know why my motor that specs 50 uf would have been paired with capacitors that provide 80 uf. As you stated, the capacitors matching the motor exactly is critical, so was this an error? I would think the guys who built it know more than I do, so I'm inclined to think I'm understanding something wrong with it.

I'm having trouble locating metric 2 sheave pulleys to change my feed rate, and a replacement metric i.d. fan. At this point, I might be paying over $100 for parts to get my 3hp motor cobbed back together at a reduced feed rate, and could have a new 5hp baldor for under $400, so I'm in the process of making the decision as to what might be the next correct step to take here.

[Bob Falk]

I have a Robland 12" JP and I have found you have to be religious about waxing the bed otherwise the boards hang up.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Andy, I'm not sure I buy the feed rate argument. Why can a Dewalt 734 or 735 take a Byrd head with no more adaptations and your machine won't? Seems like one of those "under powered" lunchbox machines would show issues if there were any.

[Peter Aeschliman]

To be sure, each machine will have its own nuances. If a lunchbox planer doesn't bog down with a byrd head upgrade, great! But those are very different machines. If a 12" jet J/P machine DOES bog down with a Byrd head (why else would they reduce the feed rate), then one must assume the engineers did so because it was bogging down otherwise.

So I don't think citing the lunchbox planer example rules out the feed rate as a potential cause.

If the motor is shutting itself down, it's probably being overloaded. If it's being overloaded, the problem can be fixed by either getting a more powerful motor, or by asking it to do less. You can ask it to do less one of two ways: reduce the feed rate, or reduce the depth of cut.

The OP doesn't want to reduce the depth of cut, so that leaves reducing the feed rate or a bigger motor.

Assuming the OP can find a suitable pulley, it seems getting a new pulley and a new belt would be a far less expensive approach.

If the OP wants to eat his cake too (I personally love cake!), he can keep is depth of cut and feed rate by upgrading the motor. No idea how this combo machine is wired, but this could be tricky.

But since the cutterhead was the only factor that changed when the under-performance began, I don't think it's fair to conclude the motor is broken. It's just being asked to do more.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Peter, I think the lunchbox example is relevant because they are marginally powerful enough machines out of the factory compared to anything other than a universal motor machine. They work, but they just don't have as much power as Andy's 3hp machine (according to the laguna website). Why wouldn't a cutter head that uses the exact same technology cause issues on one of them and it will on the Robland?

Not picking on you, but there is no rational explanation that I can think of.

[Paul Murphy]

Peter, I think the lunchbox example is relevant because they are marginally powerful enough machines out of the factory compared to anything other than a universal motor machine. They work, but they just don't have as much power as Andy's 3hp machine (according to the laguna website). Why wouldn't a cutter head that uses the exact same technology cause issues on one of them and it will on the Robland?

Not picking on you, but there is no rational explanation that I can think of.

Power required also depends on things such as cutting angle, which can double power required in the SAME straight knife head. Those tradeoffs aren't going away in a "shelix" style head.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter, I think the lunchbox example is relevant because they are marginally powerful enough machines out of the factory compared to anything other than a universal motor machine. They work, but they just don't have as much power as Andy's 3hp machine (according to the laguna website). Why wouldn't a cutter head that uses the exact same technology cause issues on one of them and it will on the Robland?

Not picking on you, but there is no rational explanation that I can think of.

I don't think you're picking on me, don't worry.

The example of the 3HP Jet J/P is the perfect counter-argument. Why do you suppose Jet slowed down the feed rate on the shelix-head machine, when the machine has the exact same specs as the straight-knife machine otherwise? Why would they do that unless it was necessary? This is also corroborated by the stories Jet's customer service agents when they explained why there were delays on shipping the spiral cutterhead version of their machine.

Also, the diameter of the cutterheads on those universal motor lunchbox planers is much smaller and they have fewer rows of knives. So if what others have said is true, that the spiral cutterhead puts more load on the motor, that effect is multiplied on machines with larger diameter cutterheads due to the effects of leverage. And due to the fact that there are more knives on a larger diameter head, one revolution on the lunchbox planer results in cutterhead-to-workpiece contact than one revolution of a larger diameter cutterhead.

Anyway, enough of that. I'm not an engineer, but I think my argument is plenty rational. The OP can do as he chooses. But I'd hate to see him spend money on a new motor when all it should take is a new pulley or two.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Power required also depends on things such as cutting angle, which can double power required in the SAME straight knife head. Those tradeoffs aren't going away in a "shelix" style head.

That's exactly my point Paul. Byrd cutter heads can increase horsepower demand, but to what extent? Well, because the shelix head for the Dewalt planer and the Jet/Laguna/Robland machines, and all others for that matter, use the same cutters, they must use the same geometry. Ok, so why would the Robland machine that has more reserve horsepower to begin with have trouble with the new Byrd head when many, many Dewalts are out there using the same thing without overloading, if a sane amount is cut.

Peter, maybe Jet stalled the introduction of these cutters for the same reason that I don't have one, they were trying to get rid of the ripples or divots or scallops or whatever you want to call them. A faster feed rate makes them worse because less cuts per inch leave less chances for the cutters to hit the high points on the second pass around. Maybe Jet had to make a retrofit for a pile of machines sitting in a warehouse someplace, because customers wanted them with shelix heads, but Jet knew that they would be returned for not making an acceptable cut quality until they came up with a slow down kit to fix their retrofit with the desirable head.

Sure, the head might be the issue, but it really could be motor issues. You don't have to buy a new motor to tell if the old one was bad either. It could also be a drive component that got put back together in the wrong configuration that causes two components to fight each other and draw more power. It is hard to imagine that it could be assembled that way though, so motor issues get the most likely suspect vote by me. I think Rod nailed it a few posts back.

My question on that note though, the coincidence of the timing is suspicious if the motor tests bad.

[Paul Murphy]

That's exactly my point Paul. Byrd cutter heads can increase horsepower demand, but to what extent? Well, because the shelix head for the Dewalt planer and the Jet/Laguna/Robland machines, and all others for that matter, use the same cutters, they must use the same geometry.


Steve, I'm fairly certain there are more than one carbide inserts on the market. Also, the mounting arangement can change effective cutting angle, cuts per head rotation, and skew angle. As head diameter grows the power per cutter grows, so sometimes they will space the cutters farther apart or on a greater helix angle. Have a look at the new Felder helix cutterhead as an example of how different the designs can be. The geometry of all this is really complex, and I have to admire the folks who developed these designs. I'm sure the tradeoffs are still made when designing a helical cutterhead, and perhaps a few more.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I'm fairly certain there are more than one carbide inserts on the market. Also, the mounting arangement can change effective cutting angle, cuts per head rotation, and skew angle. As head diameter grows the power per cutter grows, so sometimes they will space the cutters farther apart or on a greater helix angle. Have a look at the new Felder helix cutterhead as an example of how different the designs can be. The geometry of all this is really complex, and I have to admire the folks who developed these designs. I'm sure the tradeoffs are still made when designing a helical cutterhead, and perhaps a few more.

Paul, you are right, there are more makers out there, I was just thinking of the Byrd head because that's what Andy said he has. Holbren only lists one cutter part number for all of their heads. You can get different amounts per package, the the cutters are all be the same though. Any of the others may be different, I didn't compare anything but Byrd.

[Andy Pratt]

Hi everyone, sorry I couldn't write back last night with an update, wife's car got stuck in the snow and it took a while to get out. I see there was a lot of discussion while I was gone, and I appreciate all the thoughts.

Rod, I definitely heard your point on the capacitors, did you catch my earlier question as to why I would have two 40 uf capacitors on a machine with a motor that specs 50 uf? If I read correctly my (2) 40s would probably be wired in a way to create the same effect as one 80 uf (wired the other way would yield 20 uf so that wouldn't make sense). Could they have been sized incorrectly? If I am replacing them should I go with one 50 or two 25 ufs instead of what is on there? My multimeter does not test capacitance unfortunately, nor does my friend's, so I either have to get one that does or assume the capacitors are functional based on their lack of physical deformity. I gathered from reading online that they usually burst or at least bulge if they are not working correctly, is that accurate? Mine look like new.

Steve/peter, I think you are both making valid points on the cutterhead vs power question. A few things that might help here: My byrd head has 6 rows of cutters, and the factory straight head had 3. I don't know if the same ratio is true for the smaller lunchbox heads. For all I know they are replacing a 3 cut per rotation straight cutterhead with a 3 cut per rotation spiral cutterhead, whereas mine was a 3 cut per rotation and now is a 6 cut per rotation. While I imagine my byrd head doesn't take exactly twice the power to rotate through a board (since each cut is breaking less wood out), I would imagine that it has to take somewhat more than the power required for the original head, to take a similiar cut off a similiar board. There are more cuts per square inch of surface planed and I think (someone with better mechanical physics knowledge could confirm this) that it must require more power to do that.

I spoke with a Byrd representative yesterday and he was very helpful. I asked if he could provide me with a recommendation on a motor size to get the max cut capacity out of my jointer/planer. He said he would look into it and call me back in the next day or two with a recommendation. Speaking theoretically only, he told me that if the motor was powerful enough, the shelix heads can take at least 1/4" of stock off (he was not recommending that I try to do that, just explaining that the gullet depth issue is not a factor for me).

It was hard to get a certain answer, but between speaking with a laguna rep and the byrd rep I gathered that infeed/outfeed roller issues are not likely to be causing any of the power-related symptoms I have experienced with my machine (could be the issue on a machine designed differently though). Based on the progression of our discussion here I would have to agree with that: I have adequate spring travel in the infeed roller and the motor did stall before the board ever touched the outfeed, so I can't see where either would be causing my problem.

I am going to go see what I can figure out with my limited electronic testing ability and, barring any epiphanies I'll probably reassemble everything and run through some more tests with things back together to see if anything new is revealed (now that I know a lot more areas to check). I'll post another update at the end of the day.

Thanks again for all the help

[Paul Murphy]

Hi Steve, let me try to explain the cutter using a different perspective. Byrd has put a 4” radius on their insert, but sells standard cutterheads up to 6” diameter. By a combination of twisting the cutter shear angle and altering the cutter relief angle they can use the same insert on a 3” diameter cutterhead, and the 4” radius insert cuts a flat surface across the width of the board rather than a scalloped one. That’s very slick, and the math/cad is not easy but the tradeoffs remain. As cut angle is reduced, HP required is increased.

Also, as has been mentioned the more cuts per rotation [rows of cutters] of the cutterhead the smoother the surface and the higher the power requirement.

Anyway, apologies to Andy for possibly derailing your thread. I wish I could be of more help with your motor, but did have a question concerning the capacitors used: Is it possible the different capacitors were chosen intentionally to assist with the operation using 60 Hz power?

http://www.buybyrdtool.com/product.php?productid=874&cat=125&page=1 (http://www.buybyrdtool.com/product.php?productid=874&cat=125&page=1)
4"Radius 15mmX15mmX2.5mm 4-SIDED CARBIDE INSERT

[Paul Murphy]

Rod, I definitely heard your point on the capacitors, did you catch my earlier question as to why I would have two 40 uf capacitors on a machine with a motor that specs 50 uf?
Andy, Rod, I found this on the web: [quote and link to same]
http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1224 (http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1224) [down near the bottom of the article]
“Some single phase motors have start or run capacitors and some both. If the motor is being shifted from 50 to 60Hz then their effect will increase.”

Do you think that the 40 uf capacitors were selected intentionally due to the above mentioned effect? The proportional change would seem to offset the explained increase in effectiveness.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes, I forgot about the 20% decrease in impedance due to the frequency increase, I forgot that your motor was a 50 hz design.

In the wiring, the two capacitors aren/t connected together are they?

I'm still assuming that it's a capacitor run motor, so you'll need to either replace or test the capacitors............Rod.

[Andy Pratt]

I have edited this post due to incorrect info that I stated in it previously.

I met with a service technician today and he informed me that my motor was a three phase motor, not a single phase as I had thought. After posting that information here I was informed by rod and john that he was incorrect (it is a single phase motor), and that my assumptions based on that information were faulty. I've deleted the incorrect information in this post so that it doesn't muddy up the analysis of what is going on with my machine, and so I don't look too foolish for not reading the motor data plate correctly.

[Rod Sheridan]

Time to fire that repairman.

The motor says very clearly on the top left of the plate "MOT 1" followed by a sine wave. That means single phase.

You can also tell as the motor has 2 windings with 2 wires each, one run, one start winding. It's definitely not a 3 phase motor.

You most likely have an open run capacitor, keep checking in that direction............Rod.

P.S. Found a manual on line and from viewing the schematic the operation is as expected.

- press the start button, do not release until machine is up to speed (pushing the button locks in the run contactor providing power to the run winding in the motor and the start winding via C1 capacitor (run cap). A second set of contacts on the push button closes placing C2 cap in parallel with C1 to increase start winding current

- once the button is released, C2 cap drops out, run conactor stays locked in, leaving the motor with the C1 run cap only.

If the run cap is open the motor will have low power, same as if the cap wiring has been "corrected" by someone not familiar with Euro single phase motors.

Note that the Byrd head type does need substantially higher power than the straight knife configuration

[John Lanciani]

I agree with Rod, that is definitely a single phase motor. The amperage would be quite a bit lower if it were 3 phase in addition to the fact that there are not enough winding leads for 3 phase.

[Erik Loza]

Ya, it's 1-phase motor. Electrician is wrong. You know, funny enough, I still talk to electricians who get confused about working on our motors (still hear "two-phase" once in a while...). I suspect that the issue may be that your average residential electrician who the machine owner hires to fix the issue probably has never worked on an electric motor or possibly even three-phase power. My guess, anyway.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Andy Pratt]

Thanks for correcting the error guys, I'm used to seeing phase listed as "ph 1" or "ph 3" and didn't know the European nomenclature. I have edited my previous post above to get rid of the incorrect info. I should have checked what he told me first before posting, but everything seemed to make sense.

The guy does do a ton of work on electric motors and is well regarded around here for his knowledge, but I guess everyone makes mistakes. The only thing I can say in his defense is that he is old and wasn't able to lay down to look at the motor or wiring himself (he could see the control box well, but not the motor) so he had to go off the pictures of the motor on my computer, and it's possible he wasn't able to read all the numbers. It turns out he didn't charge me anything, so no harm done I guess.

It looks like I'm back to the drawing board with my problem, man I was happy when I thought it was solved, even if it meant a new motor. Rod, should I just be replacing that capacitor? I don't mind dropping the $ for a meter that can test capacitance if that is a surefire way to test every critical aspect of the capacitor, so maybe that is my next step.

Your comments on the contacter and it's relationship to the capacitors explain a lot of what I had previously not understood in the control box, would you be able to link me to that schematic? I found some on the x31 users group, but they were greek to me, maybe the link you have is more explanatory.

For what it's worth: after reading your post about holding the switch down I went back to the shop and ran some more tests on boards, making sure to hold the switch down for 2-3 seconds each time (or until there was no noticeable change in motor sound).

- When I released the switch there was an audible shift in motor noise (down), like it had either lost power or had "settled in" to a point that caused less noise.

- The board tests using this longer starting hold down were no different than what I have been experiencing before, unfortunately. While I was able to take 3/16" off a 4" wide pine board, I actually couldn't take even 1/32" off a 7" wide hard maple board, the planer stalled out after less than a foot. In thinking back, I've always been able to get great cut depth on extremely narrow stock, and I'm always most frustrated with the lack of capacity on wide hardwood, which of course makes sense but I thought I would pass it on.

I have started the motor many times in the past without holding the switch down that long. Would that have contributed to a capacitor going bad?

Barring anyone suggesting otherwise, I'll get a multimeter with capacitance testing capability and see how the capacitors test out.

Thanks for the help correcting the wrong path I was going down, I was about to buy a new motor so I'm glad I waited for some responses first.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Here's a video I came across. The felder rep is touting their "silent cutterblock".

If you fast forward to about 5:20, they do a comparison on amp draw. I wish they had done one with their straight knife version, but instead they compare what appears to be a byrd head to their version of the spiral head.

Although it's not directly relevant, it does show how different style cutterheads affect the motor. The byrd head, which appears to have more rows of cutters, draws significantly more amperage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVNWrF8XzpA

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Here's a video I came across. The felder rep is touting their "silent cutterblock".

If you fast forward to about 5:20, they do a comparison on amp draw. I wish they had done one with their straight knife version, but instead they compare what appears to be a byrd head to their version of the spiral head.

Although it's not directly relevant, it does show how different style cutterheads affect the motor. The byrd head, which appears to have more rows of cutters, draws significantly more amperage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVNWrF8XzpA

Watch those Felder guys, they are pretty good at extracting cash too... I know in my shop, I honestly have no idea if the planer is loud, as I can't hear it over the cyclone. Interesting about the amps. 20% is enough to make a difference is some instances. I hope Andy gets us the answer soon!

[Andy Pratt]

Another update from this morning. I'm about to order a multimeter with capacitance capability shipped next day (I'd have to drive 3 hrs round trip to the nearest store with one so this is my best option) but I thought I would try swapping the arrangement of the capacitors first to see if I learned anything. I was thinking that maybe my bad one was set up as the one that was always on, and the good one was the one that only helped to start up (hopefully I am understanding them correctly).

In any case, after swapping them for each other the performance was the same. Is this to be expected if one of them is bad, or does it give us new information?

For what it's worth, the max actual pass I took off on a 8" wide piece of hard maple, 3' long was 1/64 of an inch, It stalled out in less than a foot when I attempted to take 1/32" off. At this point I could have almost been thicknessing with my drum sander instead.

One last question, how come some of my posts only appear after clicking the "more replies below this depth" link? In scrolling back through I see that if you come to the page from the main forum, some of those posts aren't visible in the normal view. Am I posting incorrectly or does everyone just click the "more replies below" link in the hybrid view at the top?

Thanks,
Andy

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Andy, at the top of this page, in the light blue band under the page count, click display, and then linear mode. I don't know why the other options even exist. It should then show all the posts in order by time.

[Rod Sheridan]

Andy, are the two caps wired together or do they have at most, one common wire?

I'm wondering if there's a wiring error, or motor rotation is reversed?

Regards, Rod.

[Andy Pratt]

Steve, thanks for the tip, I did that and now the page is displaying like it should be.

Rod, here are some pictures of the capacitor wiring. They are both connected to a plastic covered bar accepting multiple other wires, but I'll let you be the judge of how they are wired since I don't know the terminology well enough to try to explain it. (Edit: I did make some headway in trying to figure out how they are wired, see my next post for that.) I took the photos from different angles so I hope everything is self evident. They are large so might take a bit to load. 252856252857252858

For anyone who can't load the pictures: two identical capacitors that have a two wire cable coming out of each of them and going directly to some sort of linear bar (like what you see on the left and right of a breaker box on the outside side of each bus bar). The quick connects are just on there so I could easily remove them to test, I put those on the first time I had them off and it's been paying off. I currently have them switched (front capacitor is wired to the bar connections that the back capacitor was from the factory) just to test it this morning, but as I said there was no change in performance due to that. I'll switch them back before testing anything else.

I'm getting a capacitance capable tester next-day shipped so I should be able to check them out tomorrow when it comes in.

Rod, when you asked if the motor rotation was reversed you reminded me of something. This motor can be run in reverse via a control switch on the outside of the control box. As I understand it, this is to power the optional horizontal mortiser attachment with standard type bits. For some reason I have always had to have it in that position for the planer to run in the correct direction, which is odd because it should be the other way around. When it is on the planer setting, the planer and feed rollers run backward and (obviously) won't even accept a board. Do motors have less power when running in reverse? If that's the case, maybe this is part of my problem.

[Peter Aeschliman]

For what it's worth, the max actual pass I took off on a 8" wide piece of hard maple, 3' long was 1/64 of an inch, It stalled out in less than a foot when I attempted to take 1/32" off. At this point I could have almost been thicknessing with my drum sander instead.

Woa. Yeah, I didn't realize it was that bad. I can't imagine feed rate would solve that, and I can't imagine the new cutterhead is the primary cause. Seems like the cutterhead is exacerbating an existing problem.

[Andy Pratt]

More info, I located the wiring diagram online (I had seen it before but couldn't make heads or tails of it). http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X31/WiringDiagrams/X31WiringDiagrams.html

I had a buddy with some electrical knowledge try to walk me through how to interpret the diagram and only had a little success.

He did tell me that the plastic bus bar (left of the capacitors) is typically set up to where the first wire going into the top left side connects you to the first wire in the top right side, and so on so forth down each side of the bus bar.

Knowing that, I can tell you an additional piece of info that may help. Both capacitors have a brown wire and a blue wire coming out of them. The brown wires enter the bus bar on the right, and correspond to a black wire on the left that connects the two screws opposite the brown wires. I believe this means that both capacitors are connected together by their brown wires, but not by their blue wires. Hopefully that answers your earlier question rob.

I am very curious if my motor has less power when running in reverse, since it appears I may be indirectly doing that in planer mode (instead of in mortiser mode as intended, where the lack of power might never be a concern) can anyone comment on that? I'm only speculating there, just hoping to spark an idea in someone's mind if they know. The data plate photo is in an earlier post in this thread if you want to look at it.

Edit: I looked into the info I didn't understand on the data plate: the "cos ,94" means it has a .94 power rating, the "IP54" refers to the level of protection it has against a foreign object, or liquid from entering the housing, and the "CL F" refers to it having F class insulation. I'm still trying to see if any of the top line numbers tell us anything.

Thanks,
Andy

[John Lanciani]

Top right is a serial # followed by a date code. There is no difference in torque produced regardless of which way the rotor is turning, don't waste your time going down that rabbit hole. Once you have a multi-meter in hand we'll be able to walk you through all of the electrical trouble shooting. I have a vary similar (though plated for 60hz) CEG motor sitting on the shelf in my shop so we'll be able to compare your results to a known good motor.

[Andy Pratt]

John, I was thinking about the same on those numbers, so it looks like there's no help from them. Thanks for letting me know on the motor power being the same in reverse, it didn't seem likely to me but I was hopeful that could be the cause. Looks like there's not much more to do until I can test the capacitance tomorrow. Glad to hear you have a similar motor, that might really come in handy as a comparison. Have you used the motor on a machine personally? Any thoughts on the quality of it?

Thanks,
Andy

[John Lanciani]

Hi Andy,

They're good motors, I have 3 Rojek machines and they all use the same motor so I have a spare just in case. I put a Byrd head in my 16" J/P and the motor didn't skip a beat. I can take solid 1/8" cuts on 8"+ wide domestic hardwoods with no issues.

[Andy Pratt]

John,

Thanks a lot for the direct comparison with your 16", that pretty much proves that the cutterhead change can't be more than a small contributing factor, if any factor at all. It's great to have a same head - same motor - same cut kind of comparison. What's the planer feed rate on your 16" j/p? That's the only thing that could otherwise contribute to a difference. Maybe my electrical problem coincidentally happened right around the same time as my cutterhead changeover. I didn't do any electrical work at all when changing the cutterhead, but maybe physically moving around the control box to do it was the straw that broke the camel's back on a weak point in the electrical system.

[john lawson]

I am coming late to this discussion but I have a 5 function Euro machine and have had a similar problem with my joiner planer. I did not replace the head. But, after running the machine one day for a long period of time I did see some smoke. I turned the machine off and waited a while and then ran it again. No problem. Several days later I was running the machine and the motor seemed to have no power. I tried letting it cool, etc. but nothing worked. It seemed to run a little slower than normal but with no torque.

After talking with tech support we put a new run capacitor on it. No help. Finally had to replace the motor. The windings were shot according to the tech rep. When I put the new motor on it worked perfectly.

On my shaper I also burned out a couple of capacitors. My motors are Italian made, 60 hertz, but they do eat capacitors. They also have brakes on them.

my $02

[Andy Pratt]

John, thanks for the info. Did you happen to take the motor apart? Was the damage to the windings obvious? I have pictures of my motor windings earlier in the thread if you want to take a look at them.

[Andy Pratt]

Well, Fedex dropped the ball on my next day shipment (said the snow was too severe... we got less than two inches, which is a normal occurrence here) so I won't be able to test the capacitors until tomorrow.

[Andy Pratt]

I got my new multimeter in today and just tested the capacitors. They are supposed to be 40 uf each, +/- 5% One was 38 and the other was 39.4 so they are within the acceptable range.

I'm going to go through and check all the connections in the control box then do as many tests as I can figure out how to do on the motor and wiring to see if I can find anything out of the ordinary. If nothing odd pops up, I'm guessing my next step is to replace the motor.

Edit: testing update: I checked all the wiring in the control box and, as far as my understanding of the machine, everything seems to have continuity where it should. I don't have much electrical knowledge so I am mostly just doing common sense things: tracing wires etc. I followed an online guide on how to test the motor for shorts to the frame and open/blown windings and here is what I found.

FYI: All of my reference to "testing the leads" refers to testing where they come into the control box, I did not test them coming right out of the motor as I would have had to cut my connections, which I can do if it is important for proper testing.

Testing each of the four leads for resistance between the lead and ground (tests if any windings are shorted to frame): meter read "OL" open line for all leads. As I understand it, this means that the windings are not shorted to the frame of the motor.

Testing each of the four leads for resistance to the other leads, all the following are in ohms not kilo or megaohms.

#1 = blue wire, #2 = black, #3 = black, #4 = brown

1-2: 2.6
1-3: 3.7
1-4: 2.3

2-3: 1.2
2-4: 0.4

3-4: 1.4

I don't know if these values tell us anything or not. The guide says "low single digit values are expected," am I right to assume these are considered "low"?

[Andy Pratt]

Bump to see if anyone knows anything from the readings in last post

[John Lanciani]

Hi Andy,

If the motor leads were disconnected when you tested it looks like the windings are shorted together. The start and run windings should not have continuity between them.

Do you have an ammeter to check the current?

[Andy Pratt]

John, the motor leads were still hooked up to the bus bar when I tested it (the capacitors were disconnected though). I'll unhook them tomorrow and give it another test. My tester will test 10a current and up to 30a for 10-30 seconds it says, so i can probably test that safely if I am brief about it. I don't fully understand how to do that though, what leads do I hook up to on a 230v single phase motor to correctly test the current? Do you test at no load, full load or both when you're trying to see if the motor is bad?

[Mike Goetzke]

Andy - if it's the motor you may want to check out the "Deals & Discounts" section. Leeson 5HP USA made motor for $240 shipped!

Mike

[Andy Pratt]

I tested the motor leads again after diconnecting them from the bus bar and here's what I got:

- Neither the blue or the brown wires ever had continuity to either of the black wires
- Black to Black had a resistance of 1.0 ohms
- Blue to brown had a resistance of 2.3 ohms

Does this tell me anything?

Mike, thanks for the reference, those are good prices. Leeson doesn't make a metric frame, single phase motor, but if I end up having to switch to a US frame and mount it outside the cabinet of the machine I would probably go with that seller, as the prices are excellent.

[John Lanciani]

Hi Andy
Those are pretty close to the motor I have, my motor is a little bigger (2.6kW) and the windings measure 1.7 ohms and 0.9 ohms.

Is there any chance that the head is in backwards?

[Paul Murphy]

One more check, any chance the feed gearbox/bearings for the feed rollers/cutterhead bearings have excessive drag?

[Andy Pratt]

John, not sure what you mean, are you referring to the direction of the motor (fan vs drive arbor side?)? If so, there's only one way to have it on this setup.

Paul, another good thing to check on, I'll see what I can find on that tomorrow. I did have to deal with the bearings when I swapped the cutterhead so it's possible that is a contributing cause. A bearing would have to be totally shot to cause this amount of problem, right? If I can spin it by hand, is it safe to say it's ok?

Edit: John for what it's worth I just found out that the 2.6 rating is just a standard 2.2kw (3hp) euro motor run on 60hz instead of 50, hence the upgrade in rating for the increased speed (2.2x(6/5)=2.6 rounded off), so we're probably dealing with identical power motors.

[Paul Murphy]

Paul, another good thing to check on, I'll see what I can find on that tomorrow. I did have to deal with the bearings when I swapped the cutterhead so it's possible that is a contributing cause. A bearing would have to be totally shot to cause this amount of problem, right? If I can spin it by hand, is it safe to say it's ok?
What I'm thinking of is perhaps a rotating component has shifted sideways and is "grinding" on something else during rotation, or a bearing race is deformed by debris and may not rotate without extra drag.

Another question is if the machine with the byrd head will run for something like an hour without developing a "hot spot" at the gearbox or at any bearing location. Will the machine idle for an hour without the motor overheating/shutting down? When you run the machine "idle" and then turn it off, does the motor/cutterhead/feed mechanism frewheel normally to a rest or does one component seem to drag the rest of the machine to a halt? Crazy as it sounds, if a ball or roller bearing has too much grease in it that cannot be displaced it will run very hot

[Steve Rozmiarek]

What I'm thinking of is perhaps a rotating component has shifted sideways and is "grinding" on something else during rotation, or a bearing race is deformed by debris and may not rotate without extra drag.

Another question is if the machine with the byrd head will run for something like an hour without developing a "hot spot" at the gearbox or at any bearing location. Will the machine idle for an hour without the motor overheating/shutting down? When you run the machine "idle" and then turn it off, does the motor/cutterhead/feed mechanism frewheel normally to a rest or does one component seem to drag the rest of the machine to a halt? Crazy as it sounds, if a ball or roller bearing has too much grease in it that cannot be displaced it will run very hot

That heat test that Paul mentioned is a good way to get a lead. I use a Fluke non contact type thermometer to check for heat spikes on our machines. Works good for things that may be energized, or could bite you if you touch them. Where is the over load that keeps tripping?

Checking your amp draw will tell you quickly if your motor is drawing too much. If it is not, your protection circuit is likely bad. If it is not, then the heat test will pinpoint the extra resistance. You are to the point where I would get tired of fighting with it and just start replacing. Time is money, motors and breakers don't cost much. Unless you are enjoying the puzzle.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Andy, I just went back and looked at the pics of your motor. That beat up fan doesn't look good. The most logical way that a fan looks like that is because of a motor that failed in some way. I sure don't see any damage in your pics either though, so maybe not, but I'm betting the motor is toast.

BTW, I should have added in my previous post that a clamp meter works very well for pinpointing amperages in situations like these, because you can check multiple locations quickly. Fluke 337 or similar.

[Rod Sheridan]

Andy, were there any electrical changes made to the machine?

Did you ever disconnect the motor from the wiring, and if so did you make a wiring mistake?

I'm wondering if the start/run windings were accidentally interchanged?

Regards, Rod.

[Andy Pratt]

I'll respond in order:

Paul: I was able to rotate all the driven components by hand today and there was no excessive resistance or noise, so I think the bearings are ok. The motor only stalls down when I ask it to take a pass larger than it wants, and always stalls down when I do that. I have replicated it 10 seconds after starting the cold motor, and I can run it for an hour taking identical tiny passes without causing it to happen. This is what makes me think it's not a current heat/fan related issue, but I realize the motor could have been damaged by heat in the past and be underperforming as a result.

Steve, I wish I had a clamp meter, I would do that test. Am I correct to say that it's not possible to test the motor for current draw in use without a clamp meter? I know that the fan started rubbing on the housing after moving the machine three years ago, and that it lost some of it's blades as a result of that (was dumb of me not to address that then).

For what it is worth, i believe this setup does not have any provision to shut down the motor if the motor itself overheats. I have found out that the black item below the contactor is an overload protection relay, which limits the amperage that can be sent to the motor to 15a (adjustable from 12-18, motor is plated for 15 so that's where it was set). In theory, this should generally keep the motor from ever overheating by not allowing it to draw excess current for more than a few seconds. With the fan bad, the motor could have been overheating with a normal amount of current going to it, so that explanation does make sense. The problem is, I've had the bad cut performance ever since I changed the head, which was before the fan blades were damaged. That's not to say the motor couldn't have been damaged from overheating around the time of the change though, and gone unnoticed.

Rod, I don't see any evidence of any electrical changes having been made to the machine, but since it's 2nd hand I can't say for sure. The capacitors have an unnecessary wire junction (where I added the quick connects), and that's the only thing out of the ordinary. They could have be wired right to the bus bar based on the length of the wire and instead they are wired to another equal length wire before going to the bus bar. If they got put in the wrong order and it mattered wouldn't my performance have been different when I tried them both ways?

On the motor wiring: I marked all my wires before I disconnected the motor last week, and that's the only time I've ever disconnected it, but I don't know what may have happened with it before I owned it. If the start and run windings were reversed, would that cause the lack of power situation I'm experiencing? If it won't fry the motor to try it, I could try switching out the way the leads are connected if someone can walk me through what I would do to reverse things if the windings were connected wrong.



I am enjoying learning about how these things work, but I'm not enjoying the down time and, as you said, time is money. A good friend from out of the area is coming to help me with this and if he can't figure it out by Friday I'll start ordering parts.

I found that marathon makes a 3hp tefc 1ph motor in a size 56 frame, which will fit in my motor cabinet (just drill a few new screw holes), and it runs about $450. I can also go with a metric 3hp motor that would be an exact replacement for $600 or get a 5hp leeson/baldor off ebay for $350-600 and have to cob-job some sort of external motor mount for it.

Thank you all for the help. I'll keep checking regularly and testing any new ideas you have, and order a motor on Friday if nothing new comes out of my friend's visit or the suggestions in this thread. I found the exact contactor on ebay for $30, so if i have to replace that too it won't be too bad.

Thanks,
Andy

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Andy, when it stalls, does the motor keep humming?

The overload relay isn't tripping is it?

Regards, Rod.

[Andy Pratt]

Rob, the motor does keep humming and if the planer table is lowered (so the wood isn't pressed into the cutterhead anymore) after a stall, after a few seconds the motor will start rotating everything again. A key thing to know here though is that the overload relay automatically resets itself, so it could theoretically be tripping then, a few seconds later, resetting itself and allowing everything to resume.

There is an audible "slowing down" noise to the motor as it approaches a stall, if that helps diagnose things.

Thanks,
Andy

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Andy, Rod knows a lot more about electricity than me, so take his advice if he says not to, but I'd be tempted to crank that overload up to see if it changes anything. If it was running at the edge of it's set capacity before the Byrd, another amp on the overload isn't going to ruin anything, and it would let you know if it was the problem if it runs different.

Those those overload protection relays were standard issue on irrigation systems made in the early 90's. The didn't hold up well, and my guys remove a pile of them each year. They get weak for some reason.

You can measure amps with other meters, but a standard multimeter will only handle very small amperage.

[Andy Pratt]

Steve, I had thought of doing that but didn't know enough to want to risk it, in case the motor wasn't bad. You're probably right that a few amps isn't going to matter for the duration of one test, so I might as well give it a try in the 15-18A range of the settings. I think it is made with a bimetallic strip and, judging by how often thermostats made the same way become inaccurate over time, I'm guessing it could be defective too.

What do you replace the ones in your irrigation systems with? Is there a more advanced type that works better now?

My multimeter will do 10a ac indefinitely and 10-30a for at least 10 seconds, so I could do a quick test. My understanding of it is limited, and as I gather you have to physically separate the wire to do it correctly without a clamp meter. I'll probably save that till my friend gets here, I think he is bringing a clamp meter.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Andy, we actually just delete them on our machines. I would't in your case though. Our pivots have 9 or 10 each, and we have 40 plus machines, spread out over an area 90x50 miles, so summers are spent chasing electrical issues. Because time is of the essence, my thoughts are to delete them so whatever component is failing will dramatically fail so diagnosis will take far less time. Usually it is a bad motor, and replacing one takes half an hour, which allows a quicker move to the next issue. These are all 480 volt three phase machines, so a malfunction makes itself obvious pretty quickly without a fail safe. I've never taken one apart, but your bimetal observation sounds spot on.

You could replace it with fuses easily if you so desired. Inrush amperage draw can be surprisingly large with a motor. You are probably actually drawing 40-60 amps for a second or so on startup. Electrical design compensates for this, so there is a good bit of safety built into a system. An amp or two for a test will do no damage.

You are correct on the use of the multimeter for measuring amps.

[Rod Sheridan]

Andy, it doesn't sound like the overload is tripping, however crank it up, run one board through.

It won't damage the motor as the thermal mass of the motor is relatively high.............Rod.

[Andy Pratt]

I hooked everything back up with the overload set to 18a instead of 15a and ran the same 8" wide hard maple board through, but there was no improvement in cut capacity and everything happened the same as before.

As far as testing the current: are two of the wires going to the motor for the start winding and the other two for the run winding? I have 2 black, one blue and a brown (plus a ground to a screw on the motor housing). I'm guessing I separate a black wire and "reconnect" it through the multimeter leads (I have the little alligator clamps so that shouldn't be too much trouble) with the multimeter on ac current setting then run the machine and take down what I see on no load/full load? Do I need to test the brown/blue or is that redundant? First time I'm doing a current test so if there is anything else I should know please tell me. I can also just wait for my friend to get here if it is hard to explain in writing.

Thanks,
Andy

[Paul Murphy]

I hooked everything back up with the overload set to 18a instead of 15a and ran the same 8" wide hard maple board through, but there was no improvement in cut capacity and everything happened the same as before.

As far as testing the current: are two of the wires going to the motor for the start winding and the other two for the run winding? I have 2 black, one blue and a brown (plus a ground to a screw on the motor housing). I'm guessing I separate a black wire and "reconnect" it through the multimeter leads (I have the little alligator clamps so that shouldn't be too much trouble) with the multimeter on ac current setting then run the machine and take down what I see on no load/full load? Do I need to test the brown/blue or is that redundant? First time I'm doing a current test so if there is anything else I should know please tell me. I can also just wait for my friend to get here if it is hard to explain in writing.

Thanks,
Andy

Andy, I don't know the answer to your current multimeter connection, but I feel a high probability of damage to your meter in this current test. I would buy an inexpensive induction meter that you simply clip around the wire being measured. If I understand it correctly your present multimeter may be below the starting current of your motor.

Hopefully someone who knows more about this will give you better information, I just didn't want you to damage a nice multimeter.

[Andy Pratt]

paul, thanks, I was going to wait to hear back before trying anything so I'll continue to hold off until someone who knows for sure chimes in. Here are the meter specs for amperage:



AC amps true-rms (45 Hz to 500Hz)


Range/Resolution:
6.000 A / 0.001 A


Range/Resolution:
10.00 A / 0.01 A


Accuracy:
1.5% + 3



20 A overload for 30-seconds max






FWIW it's a fluke 115 meter.

Do I understand correctly that it's max normal is 10A, and that I can test up to 20A as long as the test is just a few seconds? Or does it mean 20A plus the 10A for a total of 30A? I just remembered that when the electrical technician was here he told me that "it" was drawing 6a at no load and got up to 28a when the machine bogged down. He was measuring in the control box, not on the motor, so he could have been using any number of the connections in there, I couldn't watch him because I was running the planer. Based on the fact that he thought it was a three phase system, I'm not inclined to take his measurement as worth much, but I guess for now it's better knowledge than nothing. My friend doesn't have a clamp meter after all so I'm out of luck there, I'll see if I can get ahold of someone else's if my meter would in fact be inappropriate for this test.

[Mike Goetzke]

Andy, I don't know the answer to your current multimeter connection, but I feel a high probability of damage to your meter in this current test. I would buy an inexpensive induction meter that you simply clip around the wire being measured. If I understand it correctly your present multimeter may be below the starting current of your motor.

Hopefully someone who knows more about this will give you better information, I just didn't want you to damage a nice multimeter.

If you have a Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/clamp-on-digital-multimeter-95683.html

I have one and it's good enough for trouble shooting.


Mike

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Andy, Fluke's website doesn't say that it won't work anywhere that I can see. Worst case scenario, you'll blow the $18 fuse if it is too much. There should be a amp max at a voltage max I think. 10 amps at 240 volts is more power than 10 amps at 120, ie like one leg of a 480 volt three phase system vs a 120 volt wall plug.

[Andy Pratt]

I was able to borrow a 100a current tester and got the following information off my machine:

Both black leads and the brown lead measured around 2a off the bus bar (where the wires head off directly to the motor) it was hard to get the tester around the blue lead without having the others close enough for possible interference but it measured around 6a when i was all the way over it (more likely to have interference then) and around 2a when I was just barely over it. The tester is an open style y-fork meter (fluke t5-600).

The back capacitor must be the start capacitor, as it registered around 6-7a when the on switch was being held twisted and 0 when the machine was running under no load.

The front capacitor must be the run, as it registered around 6-7a during starting and normal no-load running.

For what it's worth, the capacitor that is set up as the "start" capacitor (I tested both of them in this configuration) is the only one that gives off a spark when I short the terminals before working on it, whichever one is the "run" one at the time has never given a spark so far.

I was not able to test under load as I won't have a helper until tomorrow and it will require two people to do that safely while testing.

[Andy Pratt]

My friend was here all day yesterday and we spent the better part of a work day troubleshooting the motor/wiring on the machine. He doesn't have experience with this specific type of machine but does have a very solid understanding of electronic wiring and is able to approach things in a very logical, intelligent manner.

If you don't want the long story: His conclusion after all the testing that we did is that the motor is the problem, and if I had to give a level of his certainty on that I would guess he was about 95% confident.

If you want the long story: here's how we got there


- He checked all the phycial components individually

Contactor worked correctly and was wired correctly
Overload relay same
Capacitors (based on my tests) were working as intended
On/off switch was functioning correctly
E-stops were not causing any issues
lock-out switch was not causing any issues
All wiring (bus bars, switches etc.) was connected tightly with continuity where it should have it
The red multi-switch that allows you to select forward/reverse/off was too complicated to check without a manual for it (32 terminals and 6 or more positions) so he removed it and eliminated the need for it by making the appropriate direct connections.
All wiring made logical sense when referenced against the (vague) wiring diagram for this machine and when referenced against detailed wiring diagrams for similiar setups with similiar motors that we pulled off google.
The motor resistance lined up with what should be expected
We do not have access to a megger (they look expensive) and so could not do that important test on the motor


He checked for correct electrical readings in the following areas

Voltage at outlet and outlet wiring was correct
Power plug on the machine power cord was wired correctly
Power cord wires had continuity from end to end
Current into the machine made sense (If I remember right it was 4-6 amps at no load, not sure what it read under a non-stalling load, and 30-50a when it stalled out)
The run capacitor was sending current all the time, and the start capacitor was sending current only when the on switch was held down
Motor leads had appropriate current going to them



After this testing we felt we had done everything conceivable to identify whether there was a wiring error that was causing the problem, and the only thing left to test that we couldn't do was run a megohmmeter test on the motor. By deduction, we are assuming the motor would be revealed to be faulty if that test were done. This is the only reason we're not 100% sure, we are assuming we didn't miss anything in our testing.

At this point I feel that buying a new motor is the next sensible step to take. After pricing out my options, I have decided to purchase a used 3hp 3ph baldor motor (can't go larger without having to mount outside the machine cabinet) and a new 1ph to 3ph, 3hp VFD. My total cost for this will be around $400, compared to my cost of $450 for a new lesser brand motor. The motor housing size/hp combination I need makes it hard to find a compatible single phase motor used or new (actually couldn't find even one on ebay, and only one brand makes one model that will fit new), and compatible three phase motors are much more available (5-10 available used on ebay, multiple brands make a new model that will fit). Added in to the slight cost savings is the knowledge that the VFD will make the entire, complicated, contents of my current control box unneccessary, and I can greatly simplify the machine's wiring (and my future troubleshooting concerns) into one device that has an understandable manual, detailed wiring diagrams, and technical support.

The machine is now back in the same "working" state that it was in two weeks ago, where I can use it for a project that is due in two weeks. Once that project is done I will install the new motor and VFD and update the thread with my experience on that, and the results as it affects planer cut capacity.

I'll keep checking the thread in case anyone responds, but in the absence of questions I don't plan to add anything more until close to the end of the month. I really appreciate everyone's help going through this with me. I didn't get an easy fix on the motor, but I now know enough to logically analyze any motor problem I run into in the future, and I'm grateful for all the knowledge I have gained going through this troubleshooting process with all of you.

Thanks,
Andy

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Glad you have some answers Andy, good luck!

[Yon Kin]

Turns out I was reading the thread in hybrid mode and thought the last post was from the 27th. Deleting my original post. I'm going to do the same cutter head replacement (head should arrive today), and it sounds like barring a bad motor on my part too, that things should be ok. I was pretty worried for a while though until I discovered there were 4 more pages to the thread!

I'm looking forward to hearing how things go with your new motor install. It sounds like the motor was somehow weakened so that the load of jointing was acceptable, but the added load of turning the infeed/outfeed rollers and pulling the wood through was too much. When turning the roller by hand it definitely has a lot more resistance when the roller pulley in engaged, add in dragging a heavy piece of wood across a fairly high friction surface and it might have been enough overall load to make it call it quits. The motor on my very cheap drill press did something similar when trying to run a large forstner bit into hardwood, the motor just sat there and hummed without the shaft turning.

Since you said a thin piece of wood runs through ok, one way to test this theory would be to run a thin piece of wood through with a weight tied to it to simulate the load of heavier piece of wood.

Looking forward to your updates! I'll post some info when I'm done upgrading my machine as well, which is an older green colored model.

[Andy Pratt]

I have installed the new motor and VFD and wanted to let everyone know how that worked out.

The motor is a new marathon motor, and the areas where it differs from the previous motor are that it is a 60hz motor and it is rated for continuous duty instead of S6-40% as the previous one was. Other than those aspects, it is very similiar to what I had in there before (didn't change HP as I couldn't fit a larger motor inside the machine).

The VFD is a TECO JNEV-203-h1 which converts 1ph to 3ph and does all the other gee-whiz functions a VFD can do. I ordered this from wolf automation and their customer service has been excellent, in case anyone is considering getting one.

After connecting the VFD and new motor, I ran through one of the exact same test boards that I used on this machine before, so that I would have an identical comparison as to the new planing capacity, here are the results:

On the 9" (I had previously called this a 7" or 8" board but it is actually 9" and it's the same exact board i mentioned before) hard maple board that I was taking 1/64" per pass off of before, I can now take off 1/16" (really pushing the motor to the max and almost stalling) and would probably only take 1/20" off per pass, as that's the amount that doesn't draw the motor speed down.

I also tested some pine, and the info is useful although it was a different size board. I was able to take 3/16" off a 4" wide pine board before, and I am now able to take 1/12" off a 12" wide pine board consistently.

So, things have improved to a level I can live with, although I was hoping for a little better than what I got. I have a call in to Byrd to see if they think this is typical performance for this cutterhead (6 cutting spirals) on a 3hp motor with 20fpm feed rate, and I am curious to see what they say/recommend. It is clear that my motor was part of the problem before, and so with that solved and out of the equation I may be able to adjust the feed rate to get a little better capacity out of it. I would like to end up being able to take 1/8" per pass off a 12" pine board, and at least 1/16" off a 12" hard maple board without the motor sounding like it is about to stall out. I feel like with where I am at now, I could probably accomplish that with a 25% or 33% reduction in the feed rate, which would be totally acceptable to me.

As a side note, the VFD made all the electrical junk in my control box unnecessary and has a lot of useful settings to get the most out of a motor, while at the same time protecting the motor and itself from a lot of things that can cause electrical damage. Phase conversion and variable speed aside, the VFD has a place just in simplifying the electrical component of woodworking machinery and protecting our motors. I would not be at all surprised to see these start coming standard on high end machinery in the future, and would recommend it as an option to anyone needing to replace the motor on a machine.

I'll check the thread at least every couple days to see if anyone has questions of me and will post in the distant future if I ever get around to trying out new gears for a feed rate change. Other than that, thank you to everyone for all your help and for sticking with me through this long process. Taking 1/20th off a board is indeed much better than taking 1/64," so I'll be a whole lot less frustrated the next time I have to plane a batch of lumber, I can guarantee you that.

Thanks,
Andy

[Yon Kin]

Thanks for the update Andy. I've been watching this thread as I'm doing the same thing with my Robland XSD. I got to the point of fully installing the new cutter-head, after adjusting the feed roller height screws for the larger diameter head, and found that on my particular machine the cutter-head actually impacts the underside of the jointer tables. So I had to take it back out and can't use it yet.

I'm working with Laguna customer support to resolve this as I bought the head from them. So far they have been very helpful.

I asked Byrd for the spec sheet on the cutterhead; they sent me 7 (seven!) spec sheets for different variations they have made. The one I got from Laguna, and probably the one you have too, has a 3" cutting diameter. The old head from my machine has a 2.875" cutting diameter, and Byrd has spec sheets for heads with that dimension as well.

It will be interesting to compare planing performance against your machine with the new motor and VFD once I finally get a head installed that works. My machine saw fairly light duty under the previous owner, so hopefully the motor will get me by for a while at least.

I have a couple questions about your machine. I found the threads for the mortise chuck on my old head were 23.75mm in diameter, not 24mm as stated in the manual and elsewhere. Is this true for your machine as well? (if you still have the old head and the time to measure it).

Does your machine have a single or dual drive belt system? Mine has dual belt pulleys and uses two v-belts, which is different than the picture in the manual.

I'll post up some pictures later on my my teardown and install process, it sounds like the Robland factory may have used much less loctite when they made mine, as all of my screws came loose with moderate hand pressure alone.

If you do try out new gears for the feed rate change, it looks like these might be usable:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#roller-chain-sprockets/=lju5gm
but they might have to be taken to a machine shop to have the correct size bore reamed out.

[Andy Pratt]

Yon,

Good luck with your changeover, I hope it goes more easily for you than it did for me and I'm definitely available if you have any problems that I might be able to help with.

I got rid of the old head, so I can't help you on the measurement there.

My machine has a dual drive belt just like you described.

I did end up ordering a sprocket to try to slow down the feed rate a bit. There is very little room for adjustment in the "slower" direction, as 4 of the 5 rotating items (sprockets and the rubber wheel) are already at their max/min size in relation to other components in terms of slowing down the rotation of the feed rollers. The 5th item, which does have some room for playing around, doesn't have much. The sprocket I am changing is the larger one on the planer outfeed side of the machine. It measures 6-5/8" O.D. and by my measurements you could squeeze about a 8.75" sprocket there in place of it. The closest option I found to fit was a roughly $30 sprocket that is about 7.9" 0.D. This sprocket has to be bored to size and the bore it needs is 31mm, luckily a machinist lives next door to me. This will yield a new feed rate of about 16fpm as opposed to the 20fpm of the original sprocket. If I have identified them correctly, I believe the chain is type 41 chain, which is standard "bicycle chain", and that's how you search for replacement chain and sprockets "type 41 chain". It is much easier to find what you need for sprockets buying "bore to size" than looking for something with the bore size you need, so keep that in mind if looking for one.

[Andy Pratt]

Got the chain in yesterday, I was incorrect to say that it was type 41 chain, that is actually larger than what is on the machine. I believe what is on the machine is type 43 chain, which is also called 410 chain. This is the narrowest of bicycle chains, as far as I can understand. The pitch of 41 is the same, so it should work, but it is about 1/4" wider and much heavier duty than the 43 chain. There aren't a lot of option for purchasing size 43 chain, so I'm going to see if I can make the 41 stuff work.

[Yon Kin]

If that chain doesn't work, it looks like you can actually get type 43 on Amazon!
http://www.amazon.com/HKK-RC043R1A-Riveted-Diameter-10/dp/B0052A0CV0

I'm waiting on a properly sized cutterhead from Laguna, they had to get in touch with Byrd and special order one so I'm not sure how long it will take. And this is after I went through all the work of otherwise getting the larger diameter head to fit (cutting the sheet metal on the dust hood, adjusting the height screws and filing down the head of one of them because the hole for it didn't go far enough!)

Fortunately I've gotten pretty good at putting it back together at this point, so once the new head arrives it shouldn't take too long to try it out.

[Andy Pratt]

The 43 chain is readily available, but the 43 sprockets aren't, so that's the issue there. My head was a little larger than the stock one, but I don't think it was off by as much as yours. They had 3 different options at the time I did mine, if I remember right, so maybe I got a different one than you. I'll be curious to see how many rows of cutters you get on the one they send you next. Mine has six rows and I wonder if that is more load than the motor is meant for.

[Andy Pratt]

Final update: I changed one of the feed roller drive sprockets to yield a new feed rate of 16fpm as opposed to 20fpm. This resulted in a slight increase in performance, with me now being able to take 1/16" off the 9" maple board without the motor sounding iffy. I tried to take 1/12" off and the overload tripped within the first four inches (overload in the VFD is set correctly).

As far as my plans, this was the last step in the process and I'll use the machine as-is from now on. I'm happy enough with where it got me, but expected to get a little more out of the changes I made. I'm a little better than twice as good as where I started out, so it shouldn't drive me nuts anymore.

Thanks,
Andy

[Yon Kin]

That is odd that yours has 6 rows of cutters, mine has five rows of 12, for a total of 60 blades. It seems like fewer rows would necessitate a slower feed to maintain the same finish quality, so I'm not sure having fewer rows will be an overall advantage for me.

I'm still waiting on a new head that fits, I'll update when I get one.

[Andy Pratt]

Another update: Good news

I have used the jointer with the above listed modifications without issue for the last year, but always wished I could get a little more performance.

I wondered about the machine having 6 spirals instead of 3 blades like a standard cutterhead and whether or not that was causing a lot of extra power requirement. Since I am fortunate enough to have a cutterhead with an even number of spirals, I took a chance and removed all the cutters on every other spiral. So, the head is still balanced, but now it only has three rows of functioning cutters instead of 6.

Results: No noticeable degradation in surface quality (tested on curly maple and birdseye so I'm fairly confident in that) and roughly double the performance.

I took off 1/6" (yes that is 1/6th not 1/16th) off a 6" soft maple board and just ran through a bunch of pine 2x6 boards taking 1/6" off per pass and it didn't even sound like it was working on those. I was regularly taking 3/32"-3/16" off different species/lengths/widths I tried so I feel like I am up to standard quality planer performance now.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Wonder why, suppose the head was plugging up or something with the finer chips?

[Bob Falk]

I have the same machine, sans the Byrd head....it will bog down if you don't keep the planer bed waxed....makes a world of difference. bob

[Andy Pratt]

Steve, I think the main thing was that I reduced the number of cuts it has to make per revolution by 50%, which cut down the power necessary to do a given amount of removal by (guessing) 30-50%

Bob, thanks for the tip but I do keep it waxed and, although I trust your recommendation is true for your machine, it does not seem to have a huge impact with mine whether it is recently waxed or not.