Beetle Kill Pine Flooring

[Sue Wise]

I have a few sample boards to play with to see if I can get a nice stain and finish for beetle kill pine flooring. This is Logepole pine with the blue streaks. I am not big fan of pine but I am going to give it a try. I want to have a darker and more antique look to it. (Not dirty brown, but a bit more golden.) I am thinking about using Waterlox as the finish. Waterlox suggests you use an oil stain (1:4) in the first coat. (or in more coats for a darker color) Then a few clear coats on top.

I am wondering if using a dark dewaxed shellac in the first coat (or two) might be a better choice.

Any other suggestions? I will document and post my sample boards as I go along.

[Jim Becker]

Staining pine is difficult; both for finding "your color" and finding a product that will work well on it. When we had the wide pine floors finished in our addition (to match the wide pine in the rest of the house) it took the outstanding "mixologist" at the local Sherwin Williams nearly three hours to come up with an acceptable color/product to use. That was a combination dye/pigment stain applied over a pre-stain conditioner. "Off the shelf" products are tough for pine floors.

Your consideration of dying the varnish may work for this wood since you just want to darken it a little. In effect, you're glazing. The downside is that it's very hard to color control a dyed finish if you're not spraying it on--this is why so many of us poo-poo products that come that way. I suggest you construct a "sample floor" of a few square feet so you can see how it will look using your intended application method. Try the shellac method, too...the bottom line is that either way will darken, but being able to do it without visible application marks is the key.

Beautiful wood, BTW... ;)

[travis howe]

Sue - Keep us posted, I live on the front range and really like the look of this stuff and the price.... would love to see what all you discover with this stuff.

Cheer!

Travis

[Neal Clayton]

I have a few sample boards to play with to see if I can get a nice stain and finish for beetle kill pine flooring. This is Logepole pine with the blue streaks. I am not big fan of pine but I am going to give it a try. I want to have a darker and more antique look to it. (Not dirty brown, but a bit more golden.) I am thinking about using Waterlox as the finish. Waterlox suggests you use an oil stain (1:4) in the first coat. (or in more coats for a darker color) Then a few clear coats on top.

I am wondering if using a dark dewaxed shellac in the first coat (or two) might be a better choice.

Any other suggestions? I will document and post my sample boards as I go along.

you can mix a stain with waterlox, it's not mandatory, just personal preference if you want something darker.

however...

dark shellac or varnishes over pine can cause the same problems that stain over unsealed pine will, it will absorb too much in the sapwood and become blotchy, while the heartwood won't absorb enough. anything darker than amber shellac as a sealer on pine isn't a good idea from my experience.

if you want to go with the stain-in-the-waterlox idea i would lay the first coat down straight out of the can, and use a mix for the second. you'll need 4 coats total for a pine floor.

the method i use with yellow pine and waterlox for color variation is one coat of waterlox for sealer, spray the shellac color i want until the desired color is achieved, then waterlox again as a topcoat.

here's what waterlox looks like on an old longleaf pine floor right outta the can with no stain...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=95687&d=1219900663

[Doug Hobkirk]

...I am thinking about using Waterlox as the finish. Waterlox suggests you use an oil stain (1:4) in the first coat. (or in more coats for a darker color) Then a few clear coats on top.

I am wondering if using a dark dewaxed shellac in the first coat (or two) might be a better choice.

Any other suggestions? I will document and post my sample boards as I go along.


...Your consideration of dying the varnish may work for this wood since you just want to darken it a little. In effect, you're glazing. The downside is that it's very hard to color control a dyed finish if you're not spraying it on...
Try the shellac method, too...

Sue - I for one will be interested in seeing your results. Good luck!

Jim - First let me thank you for your innumerable thoughtful and useful postings. I thank you, we thank you, you make this forum a better place! Now, on to my confusion -

1) Is mixing a stain with a finish the same thing as dying?
2) I thought glazing and spraying were for on-the-surface materials. I though Waterlox finishes were based on Tung Oil which makes me think the finishes are designed to penetrate the wood. (I've never used their products and know very little about them).

[Neal Clayton]

yes waterlox penetrates, it's just slightly thicker than shellac. that's why the stain mixing idea comes with its caveats in regards to pine.

[Justin Green]

I learned a good lesson putting pine in my house. Pine is pine and it's tough to get it to look like something else when doing a project as large as flooring.

Waterlox is an excellent product and well worth the price. By letting a few coats build before adding the stain, you are glazing or tinting the color of the finish, not so much the wood. You basically are trying to have a layer of transparent color that doesn't soak into the pine as much, resulting in an even coloring.

If you want to stain the pine, leave the pine as rough as you can and it will take the stain a little better. My pine floors were sanded up through 80 or 100 grit (I can't remember) and that was it. It took the stain much more evenly and the waterlox made the grain look really nice. The pic below shows my floors, not such a good shot, but gives you an idea of how light I left mine while still getting some depth of color. And of course, they've darkened a small amount over the last 3 years.

[Al Wasser]

Pine is Pine but ......not all pines have the same hardness. I could be wrong, but the western pines, mostly ponderosa and lodgepole in this area, are pretty soft and I would not use them for flooring. The southern yellow pines are harder and make better flooring. I think lodgepole will scratch and dent badly when used for flooring.

[Justin Green]

That's true as well. I used yellow pine. My remarks were more towards the finishing side. Pine isn't going to end up looking like cherry or oak. White pine wouldn't be terribly strong for flooring, I agree.

[Sue Wise]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. Yes, I agree that this pine will dent easily. I realize that using Logepole (I am only assuming this is Logepole), will not look and wear like oak or cherry. I would not put this in high traffic areas or use with kids and dogs. It is more for the rustic look.

I think the hardest part is the beetle blue stain. Even with a clear finish the blue turns black.

I have already started my first sample board. I put the stained waterlox straight on the pine. Hard to say with the first coat, but I don't think this will work well. But I have enough wood for quite a few samples.

I do like the idea of shellac sprayed. I have not heard of spraying a floor, but it seems like a good idea. I did email Jeff Jewitt, and he said that he knows of a floor finisher who uses shellac for the color and then topcoats with Waterlox.

Doug - Usually when you mix stain or dye with the finish and spray it, it is called a toner. A glaze is simply applying stain between coats of finish. So in that case the color stays in the finish. Gives great depth, but can be a nightmare with repairing scratches to the finish. That is another reason for the Waterlox. Easy to repair as you don't need to sand it but just add another coat.

I need to go out and sand a few more boards. I will post all pictures after four coats.

-Sue

[Larry Edgerton]

I built a house a couple of years ago and the owner wanted white pine from his property made into flooring. It is similar to what you are using. It does scratch and dent easy, and I would caution against stain for this reason, scratches show up more the darker the stain. It wears in fairly fast, and after a couple of years it is taking on a nice patina, and the owner loves it for its character.

I'm still not a big fan, but its not my house.........

[Jim Becker]

1) Is mixing a stain with a finish the same thing as dying?

Nope. You can use a compatible "stain" or "dye" to color a finish, but "stain" and "dye" are typically different products; the former most often containing pigment particles which lodge in the pores of the wood to impart color and the latter having no pigment particles and coloring the wood directly. There are some coloration products that contain both pigment particles and dyes in combination...we used a custom mixture like that to do our wide pine floors as I mentioned in my original reply to Sue.



2) I thought glazing and spraying were for on-the-surface materials. "Glazing" is an application of a translucent colored finish product to alter the color of a piece partway through the finishing regimen--usually after stain or dye has been used and then sealed. It can be sprayed on, brushed on or wiped on and often is then manipulated to highlight 3 dimensional features...more of it lodges in corners while much might be wiped completely off in the 'field'. That gives you a more "used" or "antique" look due to the shading. It is true that it sits on the surface, however, unlike most stain or dye applications. (There are exceptions)


I though Waterlox finishes were based on Tung Oil which makes me think the finishes are designed to penetrate the wood. (I've never used their products and know very little about them).Waterlox is one of the varnish products that have Tung Oil as a raw ingredient. But once it's cooked to become varnish, you really cannot call it tung oil. Tung, BLO or Soya oil are all typically used to create varnishes...and the same thing holds true: once "cooked" it's no longer oil, per se. A typical "danish oil" product...which is a mixture of oil, thinner and varnish...will penetrate "more" than an initial coat of oil based varnish because with the latter, your first coat penetrates and then seals. There is less "sealing" with the former and subsequent coats will enter the wood more than with a straight varnish.

[Rick Lucrezi]

I just did some blued pine for our house. I found the blue took color very well. I used an amber shellac. I took the 3# cut Zinser and made a 2# cut. One coat. I plan to go over it all when I am done with a clear shellac for the gloss and then possibly a paste wax finish. I have 1600 sq' of of fir flooring that I still need to sand and finish but couldn't decide so back burned it. I was pretty convinced it was going to be tung oil. I like Waterlox but they are very expensive. If you figure you can mix your own tung oil floor finish for 1/2 the cost I put Waterlox out of mind. They have a phenolic resin which allows the finish to be very hard. That is the only ingredient I could not find to add. Any way, tung oil, to do right, requires you to apply heavy enough for the oil to soak in and leave some sitting on top of the wood which needs to be wiped off before it gels. I saw this as waste. It makes since, you want the wood to take as much product as it can evenly. It means your going over each piece of wood twice for each coat, and Pine is 3 coats minimum. The first coat takes a lot more material the subsequent coats. Long story short, after playing with the Shellac we are considering it for the floor as well. It will need to be waxed, but today's wax for floors are formulated to be very hard when dry. I got my inspiration for the Shellac from a clients 1920 log home. The whole interior is shellac. The logs are are yellow pine, the interior walls and ceiling are all yellow pine and the floor is rough saw fir. Just wax on the floor. It has a beautiful weathered look. You can still see saw marks in the wood, but it is beat down from years of use, the joints are big and fill with dirt which gets packed in. It is rustic but in a very nice way. I have attached some pics of my blue pine so you can see the look. Do a search on shellac for floors. Most floor finishers will discourage it, but of all the guys I know in the trade, none of them have ever done it. If you are set on Tung oil check out Twisp Enterprise. I got a 2 samples from them, an amber and a dark. They use orange citrus as a reducer and it smells really good. You can even buy the 100% polymerized oil and make your own mix. They are considerably less than Waterlox. If you have any questions, I would be happy to help. I have been researching floor finish for months, hence my floor sitting unsanded and the LOML giving me that "look".

[Sue Wise]

Rick,
Thanks for the pictures. So far, everything I have tried with Waterlox, I have not liked. It seems that the streaks blotch with just plain Waterlox. I did a quick spray with a spray bomb shellac that I had around and it did not blotch. So amber or dark shellac was my next choice to give it a try.

-Sue