Solar Panel/Wind turbines

[Chris Kennedy]

I am considering setting up a solar panel or a wind turbine as an alternative energy source. Everything I have seen makes it look like it isn't tremendously complicated, but I was wondering if anybody here has had any experience with either of these.

Cheers,

Chris

[Brent Leonard]

I have an active forced hot air solar system on my home.
I am currently waiting to see if the federal gubmint offers a better personal wind turbine tax deduction than they currently have, then plan to buy a wind turbine like my neighbor.

My solar system works great. We have two separate zones (up & down stairs) that have individual thermostats. The fans are ac motors with the typical squirrel cages. The panels heat a register. Once the register reaches 90 degrees, the fans will kick on, passing warm air from inside the house, over the register, heating the air further and pumping it into the house. My natural gas forced air furnace is wired as a secondary system, only kicking on when the solar is not working (night, cloudy, etc...)

It can be 10 degrees outside, sun shining, and my home can be 100% heated to 70 degrees with the solar. There is no PITA water systems that IMO, have proven to be extremely high maintence ( my father owned one). My solar is essentially maintence free. Saves us a ton of money.



The wind turbine my neighbor has, contains no batteries. When it is turning, it supplies power to the house when they are using it. When they are producing more energy than they are consuming, it is sent back to the electric company and they buy it from them.

He tells me, he can supply approximately 60% of his energy, while reducing his electric bill 90% (due to the public utility buying the excess energy).

His mill is VERY quiet, standing right next to it, turning as full bore, it is about as loud as the running pump on your kitchen refrigerator!!
Cost for a single pole, free standing tower (without guidewires) and system is about 10k (installed yourself), 12k (professionally installed), here in Kansas.....

Kansas allows you to write off the entire cost of the wind turbine (thanks to our former dem guv) AND will lend you 50% of the cost at o% intrest!! Free money!
Federal goverment I guess just allowed a little on batteries and such, but I'm holding out for a bigger write off from the feds. As gung-ho the pres is on "green" , I'm sure it'll happen.

[Pat Germain]

Having lived on the Virginia Peninsula for over 15 years, I'm wondering if you'd get enough sun and wind to make it worthwhile. It takes a long time for a $10K wind turbine to pay for itself; even longer if it's not turning very often.

That solar heating system sounds great, Brent. And, being in Kansas, I doubt you'd have any trouble getting a wind turbine to turn.

[Mike Henderson]

It's very difficult to get a return on solar panels - they're just too expensive.

Mike

[Let me clarify that I am talking about solar panels to produce electricity. I haven't looked at a water heating panels, etc.]

[Pat Germain]

It's very difficult to get a return on solar panels - they're just too expensive.

Mike

That's the take I gather from everything I've read. It's especially difficult to get a good return on solar panels used for electricity. Germany has a pretty big solar panel industry. They've managed to bring the cost down and install panels all over the country. Solar panels line many parts of the Autobaun. But all those solar panels produce only a tiny fraction of the country's electricity.

[Greg Cuetara]

Talking about all this...does anyone have a geothermal heat pump? I looked into them a while back and was told they are about 20k but that is about the cost of an oil heating system so if you are building new it could make sense....I think the 20k included a well or digging out an area to run the pipes underground.

[Matt Meiser]

I did some looking into geothermal systems because I wanted to put one in. It looked I could do a system where they dug a pit in the $12,000 range because I have plenty of room. That included doing hot water from the waste heat during the summer months. There are two basic kinds of systems I found. The first pumps glycol (antifreeze) through the pipes to a water/refrigerant heat exchanger. The refrigerant side works like a normal heat pump. There's a newer method called Direct Exchange where they pump refrigerant through the buried lines saving a heat exchange step. If you have a large pond, lake, river, etc (not sure how large) you can also have an open loop system where they pull fresh water and discharge the heated/cooled water back. I would like to do it, but our furnace failed unexpectedly last year on a Thursday evening with Friday night's forecast of -10 or something crazy so we had no place but to put in a replacement furnace. Someday we probably will. The payback looked to be in the 7-10 year range at then-current fuel prices.

I've been looking at the wind turbines that someone has been displaying at our county fair for the past couple years. I've got to believe we've got enough wind out here to generate a substantial amount of our power. The costs Brent mentioned above are in line with what they charge. I wonder about long-term maintenance costs and longevity of the generator and electronics. If there were enough incentives, I'd look a lot more seriously.

Photovoltaic solar may be expensive, but companies making solar products are flying high right now. There are a couple based in the metro Toledo, OH area that are regularly making news. A lot of people are pushing Toledo as the "silicon valley of the solar industry" for reasons I don't quite understand, but if they can pull it off, great. I would think as production ramps up, economies of scale will drive prices down.

A guy near us has a forced air solar system like Brent's. He claims to heat his house for a couple hundred bucks per year. Its kind of ugly, but the pile of cash he's saved over the past 25 years would sure be pretty :D

My first steps are going to be increased attic insulation, then insulating the basement walls. Our house was built in 1991 and I've been told it was well insulated for its time, but things have improved since then. The insulation contractor says that on a typical house a well insulated basement can reduce heating costs in the neighborhood of $400/year right now. That's based on foam on the outside of the walls before backfilling, which I'm pretty sure we don't have, but he says that insulating inside can approach that. His recommendation was to start with insulating along the rim joist with spray foam which he says is the leakiest part of a typical basement. We have an open basement stairway, so I suspect any improvements will be noticable.

[Chris Kennedy]

I'm actually thinking about a much smaller scale. I am thinking about a couple of small panels like the ones here:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200306869_200306869

or a small turbine like this one:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200320201_200320201


The idea is to hook them to 12V batteries and then hook up an inverter to power things around the house. I am considering them for powering small items around the house, but mainly to have them as a backup when we lose power after storms and hurricanes.

Cheers,

Chris

[Greg Peterson]

Germany has a very interesting system. For lack of a better description it's a distributed solar array system. The cost of implementing this system country wide is less than the cost of building and maintaining a nuclear reactor, which the system matches in output. Great idea.

That people are exploring options is a great sign. Just need the geniuses to start inventing ways to cut production costs for the options.

I replaced our old water heater with a tankless water heater a couple of years back. Did most of the work myself and received a tax credit to boot. That made it a win/win situation. But I would have done it with or without the tax credit. Can't put a price on the satisfaction I get from not wasting NG or the fact that if I want to take a long, hot shower I can.

[Frank Hagan]

One Block Off Grid at http://1bog.org/1bog-cities/ has several cities lined up. they do a "bulk purchase" thing to get the installation costs as low as possible. I'm signed up for my city, but we're a ways away from being able to do it.

The new technology companies are all going bust in the economic downturn, but the Stimulus Bill spending will probably help them. The advances in producing less expensive solar panels are here ... they use converted printing presses to print them on mylar, rather than making them out of silicon wafers ... nanosolar.com is one company doing it in MA. There are two or three here in California, but all of their production is going to huge industrial projects instead of homeowners.

There is another company out there that installs, manages and maintains your solar array for a fixed monthly electric bill over the next 30 years, using your billing history with the electric utility as a guide. You have no down payment, and your average electric bill over the last year or two is all you'll pay as long as you own your home. Its easy to see what they are doing; electric rates are estimated to rise 30% over the next few years (especially in areas where coal powers the electric plants). They are using a ROI calculation to produce positive cash flow for their company.

There's also more than one way to calculate savings. Most people think in terms of "payback", where the savings in your electric bill today are applied toward the cost of the system. But for a long-term capital project like a solar array, you can also think of the cost in terms of ROI (Return on Investment). Its a complicated formula to use, but any investment advisor can do it. With the California tax breaks (added to the Federal), and the decreasing cost of systems, most people have a ROI in double digits (higher than historic stock market returns). There's a site with the formulas at one of our local solar providers (http://www.sunrunhome.com/learn_about_solar/solar_power_payback/).

[Pete Simmons]

Chris:

Not sure of the size of the wind unit you are looking at but something on the order of 10 foot diameter blades makes very little power. The unit you listed at Northern Tool is listed as 400 watts in a 28 mph wind. I bet that is measured at the output of the generator. Which is fine and expected.

Once you run that power thru batteries and inverter you have even less and in winds less than 28 mph you have a lot less. Half the wind speed and you reduce the wind energy by 8 times.

I, like most people, like to look at something like a spinning wind turbine and think of the free power I am getting but with either wind or solar electric it is difficult and/or expensive to get any useful amounts of power.

How large is your neighbors wind turbine?

I would like to know more about it.

[Chris Damm]

I'm actually thinking about a much smaller scale. I am thinking about a couple of small panels like the ones here:
or a small turbine like this one:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200320201_200320201



A 400 watt turbine isn't going to power much during a power failure. There is a local manufacturer making moderate priced turbines ($3K). They are going to be marketed through Ace Hardware starting this spring. It looks like a more viable option.
http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.ssf/2008/12/locally_produced_wind_turbines.html

[Chris Kennedy]

What got me to thinking about it was that I saw one of these rigs (quite small) on a boat, and thought it was a neat idea. I did a little looking on the net, and read about several people using these kinds of setups in remote, low use situations (a hunting camps was one case).

You're not using it as live power ("this is my wind powered table saw -- only drawback is I can only use the dado stack during a hurricane" :D) , but if you have enough juice over time to charge your batteries, then you can use those for a while. How long it would take to charge the batteries? Well, that's an issue.

This may all be a pipe dream, but it's gotten me to thinking.

I would love to be in Kansas and be able to have a turbine like was mentioned. My wife's grandmother lives on 18 acres right on the water, and we are thinking about a turbine for her place.

Cheers,

Chris

[Pete Simmons]

The turbine produces an estimated 1,580 kilowatt hours of electricity per year and will be available in 4,200 ACE Hardware stores.

That is about $150 in savings per year. An installed system is over $3000.

Good Luck!

[Lee Schierer]

Talking about all this...does anyone have a geothermal heat pump? I looked into them a while back and was told they are about 20k but that is about the cost of an oil heating system so if you are building new it could make sense....I think the 20k included a well or digging out an area to run the pipes underground.

I've heated my home geothermally with a heat pump for over 25 years. We heat and cool a 2200 sq ft ranch style house for $135 per month. My system has two wells and I extract heat from the well water and return it to a second well. The initial investment is high, but they do work very efficiently. If you are looking at a conventional heating system, even the high efficiency gas unit, the geothermal will cost less to operate. We cooled out house for the first time this year from July to the end of September and used less kilowatts running the A/C than we did running one dehumidifier, 2-3 ceiling fans, a window fan and a couple of box fans.

[Lee Schierer]

I am considering setting up a solar panel or a wind turbine as an alternative energy source. Everything I have seen makes it look like it isn't tremendously complicated, but I was wondering if anybody here has had any experience with either of these.

Cheers,

Chris

Here's a unit that claims to be considerably more efficient for heating and lighting your home than the local utility. Free Watt (http://www.freewatt.com/products.asp?id=169&name=WAir) This system uses propane to power a generator to power the unit and light your house. They scavenge heat from the generator motor for heating the house as well. It's a neat concept and their claims are pretty amazing. It would be ideal for some one a long way from the power grid or not wanting to depend on the power grid.

[Brent Leonard]

Chris:

Not sure of the size of the wind unit you are looking at but something on the order of 10 foot diameter blades makes very little power. The unit you listed at Northern Tool is listed as 400 watts in a 28 mph wind. I bet that is measured at the output of the generator. Which is fine and expected.

Once you run that power thru batteries and inverter you have even less and in winds less than 28 mph you have a lot less. Half the wind speed and you reduce the wind energy by 8 times.

I, like most people, like to look at something like a spinning wind turbine and think of the free power I am getting but with either wind or solar electric it is difficult and/or expensive to get any useful amounts of power.

How large is your neighbors wind turbine?

I would like to know more about it.


Here is what I know about it....

it stands quite high, apparently they (the contractor) does a wind analysis on your site to determine the proper height requirements to get good unrestricted wind flow. It has 3 blades and they have a significant curve on the ends of the blades. Blade length looks to be around 5' or 6'.
The head turns 360 degrees of course, but it does not appear to swivel upward as some I have seen. When that thing turns, ITS FAST!

Kansas is smack dab in the N. American wind corridor, so we get lots of wind, even in hilly eastern Kansas.

As I said, what he tells me, it does not supply all his electricity needs, only 60%, but due to the fact it is nearly always producing electricity, he gets a significant credit from the public utility, thus lowering his bill by 90%. I've looked for the web site of the guy out of Ottawa Kansas who sells and installs them and can't seem to find it (I look some more). I seem to remember they are built in Texas and are supposed to be the best on the market. Of course, every salesman sells the "best" on the market!


By my estimation, it should take around 10 years to pay for itself,,,,, AT CURRENT rates. My feeling were that rates are sure to continue going up, so, if I can get a good federal tax break, It could pay for itself in maybe 5 -7 years. That would be worth it to me as I plan to stay in this home for at least 15 years.

My hot air system is great. I didn't buy it, as it was on the house when we bought it, so I have seen nothing but benefit. Over Xmas vacation, I paid close attention to it... it heated the house all day long (20 degrees outside) and the gas furnace didn't kick on ONE TIME! I should add, my home is very energy efficient too. The previous owner put a lot of money and work into making the home very well insulated and energy effecient.
I would NEVER buy the hot water solar system after my fathers problems with his. It cost him a small fortune to have someone remove the POS system. Perhaps they are better now, I don't know.

[Brent Leonard]

I should add,

photovoltaic panels will charge your deep cycle battery in your RV. Thats about it. Well, maybe a little more, but not enough for your home.

Those turbines sold at Northern Tool, were quite insufficient capacity wise for what I wanted. Price wise was right up my alley though!:D

[Pete Simmons]

Brent:

If you can get a good price with the help of grants and tax breaks go for it. Any amount of power it generates is somewhere between free and low cost over the long term. Will electric rate go up in the future? As you said, I would also bet on that.

Just remember there are calculations for the max amount of power for any given wind turbine based on disk diameter and wind speed and that small turbines (6 - 12 ft diameter) in 10 - 20 mph winds have very little power available. Then when you factor in mechanical and electrical losses of the system you lose even more power.

Also inverters capable of outputting clean sine wave power in any decent amount are very expensive. Electric Utilities are very cautious of the quality of power they will connect to their grid.

Go ahead and power your lights and small motor type items with you wind generated power but until I was positive on the quality of the power (clean 60 cycle pure sine wave ) I would be careful connecting a big dollar HD TV or similar item to it.

I question the claims of most small solar (PV) or wind turbines but I relize we as a nation must do something to decrease our use of imported oil and if your small wind turbine will save 10 barrels of oil a year than it is something we all must start doing.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Chris - I've seen a few small turbines like that on various boats (sailboats, larger boats) on Cape Cod. I'm guessing the owners use them to power the bilge pumps, in case electricity goes out (or instead of paying to connect to power at the dock). I'm sure you could get some use out of them, but figure the power consumption - 400W is probably "full power", so if you take 75% output at 300W, that's enough for a few lightbulbs....

[Brent Leonard]

Brent:

If you can get a good price with the help of grants and tax breaks go for it. Any amount of power it generates is somewhere between free and low cost over the long term. Will electric rate go up in the future? As you said, I would also bet on that.

Just remember there are calculations for the max amount of power for any given wind turbine based on disk diameter and wind speed and that small turbines (6 - 12 ft diameter) in 10 - 20 mph winds have very little power available. Then when you factor in mechanical and electrical losses of the system you lose even more power.

Also inverters capable of outputting clean sine wave power in any decent amount are very expensive. Electric Utilities are very cautious of the quality of power they will connect to their grid.

Go ahead and power your lights and small motor type items with you wind generated power but until I was positive on the quality of the power (clean 60 cycle pure sine wave ) I would be careful connecting a big dollar HD TV or similar item to it.

I question the claims of most small solar (PV) or wind turbines but I relize we as a nation must do something to decrease our use of imported oil and if your small wind turbine will save 10 barrels of oil a year than it is something we all must start doing.


There's something I have not looked into.... the quality of the electricity.
If powering electronic devices is problematic, I don't know if thats something I want to do until newer more inexpensive technology exists to fix that issue.

[Pete Simmons]

Yes there are inexpensive inverters available. Many people have one right now - The UPS they have on their computer.

The AC output of your typical UPS is a chopped square wave method of making 60 cycle AC power. Far from the quality pure sine wave AC power utilities want.

Most rotary type generators make a nice sine wave output. Problem here is to keep it at exactly 60 cycles. Mechanical type speed regulation works for wind turbines but quality regulation costs $$$. Some of these work by varying the pitch of the blades to maintain a constant speed.

Solar PV Cells have a similar problem they generate DC. Using an inverter is never 100% efficient. If any parts of you electric system are warm to the touch (or even hot) that is wasted energy.

Depending how you generate the power, installing a small 12 volt DC grid in your house to power some lights and a few small 12 volt appliances might not be a bad idea. This way you can avoid the problems with AC conversion.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I see some quality of life issues associated with wind and solar generators in a residential area...especially in my area of the US where housing is tight. Also, my area has a low wind capacity which make wind turbines unattractive.

However, the flipside is the painful part of electrical energy costs in NJ. We are about 17 cents per KWhr residential, and 13 cents pr KWhr commercial since electricity was deregulated in NJ three years ago. That's almost twice as much as other areas of the US. But even at these high rates, and 'renewal energy credits' provided by the State, I don't see these systems on an individual residential scale being realistic.

In general, solar and wind power just does not provide the energy density of a gas, coal or nuclear fired plant. We would probably have to plate the entire planet with panels such that earth would look like a big disco ball when viewed by the Martians.

-Jeff :)

[Mike Henderson]

Most rotary type generators make a nice sine wave output. Problem here is to keep it at exactly 60 cycles.
If you connect a generator to the power grid, I can assure you that your generator will run at 60Hz. It will be impossible for it to run at anything else.

There is also the problem of phasing when you connect to the grid. If your generator is not in phase with the grid power, high currents will flow and slam your generator into phase. There are simple ways to monitor the phasing between the grid and your generator (using a light bulb) before you connect.

Mike

[Chris Kennedy]

I see some quality of life issues associated with wind and solar generators in a residential area...especially in my area of the US where housing is tight. Also, my area has a low wind capacity which make wind turbines unattractive.


If you expect solar power or wind power, on a realistic residential scale, to provide your energy -- it isn't going to happen with the current technology. I looked into the cost of a full scale PV system, and it was ludicrously expensive and even if I pumped energy back into the grid, my return on investment was somewhere along the lines of 20-30 years. Wind power looks good -- if you live in the right area. That means two things -- having plenty of wind and living somewhere that you can put up a turbine that isn't a gigantic eyesore.

I got to looking at the small turbine and the smaller photovoltaics because they aren't tremendously expensive. If I can store enough power in batteries to keep a small fridge running after a storm, I'll be happy. A generator is cheaper, but when you start to consider gas, it becomes a little less attractive. On the other hand, if I can afford a slightly more expensive system, I'm willing to invest in the technology. Hopefully, it will bring the cost down for the future, or fund advances to make it better.

Cheers,

Chris

[Ben Rafael]

It's very difficult to get a return on solar panels - they're just too expensive.

Mike

[Let me clarify that I am talking about solar panels to produce electricity. I haven't looked at a water heating panels, etc.]

The numbers I've seen that it takes about 20 to 30 years including govt credits. And if you consider the time value of money the break even would be at least another decade.

[Brian Elfert]

The federal government through 2016 will pay 30% of the costs of wind power, geothermal, or photovoltaic panels installed at residences.

[Darius Ferlas]

I was looking at solar panels last year but it's too early. There is simply no bang for the buck in the short run (5 to 10 years). This may change though as the energy prices go up and solar panel prices come down.

Some numbers to consider when looking at solar panels. Don't ask for formulas as they are from my old notes when I was researching solar energy:

- the Sun provides a hair under 1000 Watts of power per square meter (10.76 square feet)
- solar panel efficiency ranges from 12 to 40% on a sunny day
- the cost of higher efficiency panels is prohibitive
- morning sunlight and evening sunlight are not as efficient as mid day, which translates into 1000 Watts averaging down to about 45% of maximum power output per 12 hour period of sunlight. That goes even further down on cloudy days.
- all things and losses considered, a 1 sq/m (10.76 sq/ft) solar panel will produce about 500 Watts of charging current into a 13.8 volt battery. The total amperage will be approx 36, i.e. roughly 3 amps over a 12 hour period.

There are some really big wind power farms not far from where I work. Some people who live closer to the turbines have noticed some ground vibrations.

[Pete Simmons]

Darius:
Good work on posting your energy numbers.

I recently gave a short talk on this subject and your numbers are right on.

My talk centers on (for solar and wind) it is not technology that is holding these energy sources back.

The real problem is available raw energy density. Even if we develope technology to convert 98% of the available wind or solar energy to electric power it is still a small source of power per sq foot.

Solar - The Solar Constant is about 1300 watts per sq meter - out in space at earths distance from the sun. Absorbtion and reflection reduce that by about 50% by the time it gets to the surface.

Wind - a 10 mph wind is about 5 watts per sq foot (Raw wind power) of rotor area. Double the wind speed and you 8 times the power but half the wind speed and you reduce the energy by 8 times. There is also a 59% recovery max based on the wind on the low pressure side of the rotor needs to go somewhere. You cannot have 25 mph wind on the front of the rotor and 0 mph wind speed on the back.

Because of low energy densities wind and solar will always be costly and large in area to tap into any large amounts of energy regardless of improvements in technology.

You cannot fool mother nature.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

There are some very smart and informed posts here. Woodworkers are a very knowledgeable bunch! :)

I see three major areas that need to be addressed: (1) battery technology; (2) electric transmission (i.e., the electrical grid), and; (3) commercial large scale nuclear electric generation (both fission for now, and eventually fusion power for later). However, I believe advancement in these technical areas is being undersold, and solar/wind is being oversold.

Back in the 1970s, I would have predicted that most everything would be electric driven by now, (e.g., cars, trucks, home heating, etc.).

Oh well.

-Jeff :)

[Eric DeSilva]

It's very difficult to get a return on solar panels - they're just too expensive.

Depends where you are... My dad had a 1.7 kW system installed for $15K (turnkey) in Howard County, MD. There was (in 2008, and I think its still good) a $2K fed tax credit. He also got a $5K county ppty tax credit and a state rebate of $2.5K/kW, so about $4.5K. So, $15K system for $3.5K. Certainly speeds the pay-off.

Sadly, when I looked into it in my area, I have neither the state nor county credit of any kind. Bummer.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I am waiting for Nan-tennas.

Nano antennas are itty bitty little antennas that should be able to be produced about as cheaply as high grade carpeting. The antennas are manufactured already tuned to some particular wavelength of energy emission.
So you might have some that are under your car taking advantage of the road way heat and others taking advantage of the Ifrared coming off the earth at night. Your roof even exterior walls might be carpeted with them to soak up the whole bandwidth of sunlight and even star light and Infrareds available at night. A Nantenna would absorb energy and route it through an oscilator circuit that would convert it into electricity. In theory they are tremendously more efficient at energy capture than any solar panel today. Of course I haven't seen the question of how to keep them clean being addressed. One shouold think that a fuzzy carpet of Nantennas would pick up dust and grime rather quickly. These things exist as experimental units today.

As for heat? If I were building new construction I'd pour a huge concrete slab on top of a nice thick insulation layer and use Geothermal and heat pumps to heat the slab in winter and cool it in the summer.

[Darius Ferlas]

Depends where you are... My dad had a 1.7 kW system installed for $15K (turnkey) in Howard County, MD. There was (in 2008, and I think its still good) a $2K fed tax credit. He also got a $5K county ppty tax credit and a state rebate of $2.5K/kW, so about $4.5K. So, $15K system for $3.5K. Certainly speeds the pay-off.

This will certainly speed up ROI in some areas and for some people, but the aforementioned laws of physics apply to money too. Whatever the government (i.e. taxpayer) pays for from a purse of limited size will negatively offset availability of money to pay for other services, such as roads, schools etc. Unless taxes go up of course :D

As an example, using the numbers you posted, and considering the number of households in the State of Illinois, it would cost taxpayers the total of almost $30 B to outfit all privately owned households in solar energy. Multiplied by 50 states and the result lowered by a factor of 1.5 (i.e. 30%, a very generous margin of error) it would still cost the US taxpayer a staggering $1 Trillion, give or take a Billion or a hundred of them. And that's only occupant owned households. Businesses and rental units not included.

No matter how you slice it the system described still cost $15K.

And then there is a different side of the issue - the utility company's bottom line. Last year Ontario Hydro announced they may be increasing the cost of electricity.

The reason?
CFL!

More and more people use those little bulbs so the utility company experienced decrease in payments from customers.

Yup, saving money can become costly.

Don't even get me started on bio fuels ;)

[Frank Hagan]

More and more people use those little bulbs so the utility company experienced decrease in payments from customers.

Yup, saving money can become costly.

Don't even get me started on bio fuels ;)

Oil is great because of the energy density; the EV1, with all of its 2nd gen NiMH batteries, had only the energy density of a half gallon of gas. The only thing that comes close is biodiesel, but so far there hasn't been full-scale production from algae (one of the few non-food stuff sources being considered).

It occurs to me that your calculations take into account the cost to society (i.e., that a tax break for someone putting a solar panel in has to come from other taxpayers). When you look at oil, do you calculate the social and economic costs associated with the various activities we have to engage in to keep the foreign oil flowing to us? Would we care about peace in the middle east any more than we do in the horn of Africa if we didn't have a strategic national interest there (i.e., oil)? We spend 1.3 billion a year in aid to Egypt so they don't attack Isreal, and 2.1 billion to Israel, 18 - 20 billion a year to Iraq. None of that wasteland would matter a bit to us if we didn't depend on oil from that region.

Not trying to get overtly political, but the cost of importing oil is much greater than the price per barrel, especially when you consider the sacrifices we make to keep it flowing. Including the lives of our young men and women.

[Dennis Peacock]

I checked into getting off the commercial grid via solar. My initial cost for parts and installation was quoted between $40K & $50K based on options. Then I'd have to change out my refrigerator and freezer as well as figure out how to cool our home in the long hot summers. I can buy a lot of electrical power for $50K.

[Frank Hagan]

I checked into getting off the commercial grid via solar. My initial cost for parts and installation was quoted between $40K & $50K based on options. Then I'd have to change out my refrigerator and freezer as well as figure out how to cool our home in the long hot summers. I can buy a lot of electrical power for $50K.

Does your local utility have "net metering", where you tie into the grid and spin the meter backwards when producing power? That type of set up is usually much cheaper, as you don't have to figure out a storage method for when the sun isn't shining. Instead of batteries, you are effectively storing your excess electricity on the grid.

I know one guy who has a net electric bill of $5 - $10 per month, not in electricity usage but in connection fees to the utility. His installed cost was about like a mid-priced car, $20,000 - $25,000, before tax incentives.

[Kyle Kraft]

I think you might be referring to this http://www.windenergy.com/index_wind.htm

[Eric DeSilva]

This will certainly speed up ROI in some areas and for some people, but the aforementioned laws of physics apply to money too. Whatever the government (i.e. taxpayer) pays for from a purse of limited size will negatively offset availability of money to pay for other services, such as roads, schools etc. Unless taxes go up of course

You are totally missing the point.

1. All taxation--and the implementation of a tax break--is social policy.

2. Tax breaks for solar and alternative energy are intended to promote the ultimate social "good" of reducing dependence on limited fossil fuels and limiting the pollution created by burning fossil fuels.

3. The Federal, state and local governments don't give a flying hoot about whether my dad's energy bills go up or down. The tax incentives aren't designed to help him, they are designed to help the alternative energy industry. By making solar more affordable, they are attempting to create an environment where investors see revenue potential and are more willing to put dollars into R&D and production that could reduce the costs of alternative energy in the future.

Think about your statistics for a half second. If there was a $1T pot of cash waiting to be spent on alternative energy, dontcha think a bunch of real bright bulbs might be working really, really hard to build a better solar mousetrap? That maybe that might be worth an alternative energy company coming up with a production facility that produced panels as cheaply as possible? In the absence of seeing that pot of cash as available, do you think they might engage in the same efforts?

As far as CFLs raising electric costs, I had a hard time believing it. Most energy companies still have problems meeting peak load during prime cooling and heating season. Most energy companies I see are still *encouraging* the use of CFLs. So... I did some research. I think you are talking about Toronto Hydro, not Ontario Hydro. And, if you find the original article, it actually says "However, the company is urging people to continue to conserve, because otherwise there might be even larger expenses to pass on to customers."