Lie-Nielsen pricey pretty stuff.....

[Rick Cicciarelli]

I know Lie-Nielsen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Craftsman, but boy, sometimes one needs reminding of the justification for spending $165 on a Lie-Nielsen block plane when you can buy a Craftsman for $36.

[Joel Goodman]

Just try the Craftsman. A better comparison is a prewar Stanley, MF etc and a new LN.

[John Schreiber]

I know Lie-Nielsen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Craftsman, but boy, sometimes one needs reminding of the justification for spending $165 on a Lie-Nielsen block plane when you can buy a Craftsman for $36.
Rick,

I'm a skinflint. Seriously I'm cheap and I don't have much money and I'm putting my daughter through college. I received a gift certificate for $75 at Lie-Nielsen from my mom and I considered selling it so that I could buy other things which seemed more reasonable to me. I was persuaded to put another $81 of my own money into purchasing the 60 1/2 low angle block plane you refer to above (it was $150 + $6 for shipping at the time).

It is now my favorite tool and my finest tool. It is probably the finest thing I own. Most of my other tools were purchased used and unless something falls off a money tree, most of my future purchases will be used tools too. I don't doubt for a minute though that a Lie-Nielsen plane is a good value for the price.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

Oh yeah, between quality and customer service, I've read nothing but the best....I'm just saying...now and again, one needs reminding why one tool might be worth spending 5 times as much as you might spend on something else....:)

[Jim Koepke]

Oh yeah, between quality and customer service, I've read nothing but the best....I'm just saying...now and again, one needs reminding why one tool might be worth spending 5 times as much as you might spend on something else....:)

An LN or LV will work fine right out of the box.

I have bought very few old chisels or planes that did not need some work. Many of them took a lot of work. Only one comes to mind that worked without even sharpening. Some took a lot of rust removal, handle replacement, tote glueing, lapping and other fettling. For me, it was enjoyable. Others may wish to spend the extra money and have a tool that is made to a higher quality standard than the old used tools in my accumulation. Besides, if there is something wrong with one of my old planes, it is on me to fix it or live with it. LN and LV stand behind what they sell.

For me using a hundred year old tool that has been brought back to life has a certain satisfaction. Surely, it is also satisfying to use a fine modern made tool that is likely better built than my oldies.

jim

[Martin Shupe]

Oh yeah, between quality and customer service, I've read nothing but the best....I'm just saying...now and again, one needs reminding why one tool might be worth spending 5 times as much as you might spend on something else....:)

OK, I'll remind you...

1) you get what you pay for.
2) from LN, you will get QUALITY.

[Peter Scoma]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k :confused:

PS

[Mat Ashton]

There is often one very crucial point that most don't consider when purchasing tools. Most seem to feel that good tools will make them better at what they doing. But! it can easily be argued that some of the finest furniture ever produced was over 250 years ago. Guess what they used for tools in comparison to what we have available. Even a cheap craftsman plane is better than what was available to most back them... Proof positive that tools are by far the least of the factors that a person needs to posses when it comes to making a "masterpiece"... But if you can afford them fill your boots. And if you can't then maybe developing the necessary skills to over come the short comings of those garage sale specials is your lot in life. Personally I think most would be more satisfied with developing the skills rather than having a cabinet full of tools that are more an insurance liability than a project help.

YMMV;)

[Richard Magbanua]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k :confused:

PS

I've been rehabbing old Stanleys for a year and have done pretty well. However, I decided to reward myself by getting a Lie-Nielsen low angle jack recently. Best tool I own.

Really, comparing planes such as the Craftsman or Stanleys, new or old, to a Camry isn't accurate. The Camry WILL RUN when you buy it. Imagine buying a used car only to have to take it apart, adjust and clean all the parts, change the tires, put it all back together, give it a tune up and then maybe repaint it. Buying a new car would only mean the same thing, except for the paint job.

" Even a cheap craftsman plane is better than what was available to most back them... Proof positive that tools are by far the least of the factors that a person needs to posses when it comes to making a "masterpiece"..."

Hold on there. Tools used "back then" for masterpieces were in most cases, the very best available. They were not cheap. They were protected and cared for and passed on. Those old tools were made from better materials than most of the mass produced tools we see at our hardware stores. This is the whole reason for the success of companies like Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley.
Sure, skills are important to our craft. However, for me, the pleasure of doing it is more important. And I get much more pleasure making shavings with my LN than grinding, and readjusting a lesser plane.

[David Keller NC]

A couple of interesting points in this thread.

For the most part, a well-tuned and in good shape pre WWII Stanley bench plane, with a replacement blade, will work pretty much as well as a Lie-Nielsen of the same size. They don't have the same heft, but sometimes that's not necessary. However, that's not true when it comes to block planes. I've several old Stanleys that the L-N 60 series were based on, and they don't perform anywhere near as well, even with extensive tuning and replacement blades. This is one case where L-N made a vast improvement in this design.

And regarding the idea that the masterpieces of the 18th century were made with tools "not as good as" a craftsman block plane - this is far, far, from the truth. Clark and Williams has proved this beyond any shadow of a doubt. A new version of a wooden smoother will greatly outperform a crappy craftsman iron smoother. Moreover, the saws that were in use then are massively better for fine work than anything you can get on the cheap end from Stanley, Craftsman, Buck Brothers, etc... In fact, it is these very saws that have sparked the revolution in performance that are now available from Wenzloff, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Medallion, and others.

[Narayan Nayar]

Keep in mind, Rick, that LN planes are built in the USA by people who love their jobs and who work for what seems to be a great company who treats them very well. Despite the obvious differences in quality and performance, I think Tom and his crew set a great example of how a manufacturing company can keep people gainfully and happily employed making a fantastic product at a cost relative to that endeavor.

So I'd turn your statement around. I'd say anyone who considers a $36 Craftsman plane a great value has forgotten the important difference between "low cost" and "value"--particularly in the context of social responsibility. I'm definitely not saying everyone who buys a Craftsman plane is socially irresponsible; I'm saying that those who don't know why a Craftsman plane costs much less than a Lie-Nielsen plane should probably look closer at both the planes and how their respective business models affect communities and economies.

[John Shuk]

The choice is throwing $36 out the window or getting something that exceeds expectations for $165.

[Joe McMahon]

Rick, your bio doesn't mention where you are located so I can't tell you where to go to see a Lie Nielsen showing. Check their web site and find the closest Lie-Nielsen tool showing and go there.

LN brings everything that they produce and they bring it so you can test drive it. You just pick up whatever meets your fancy, head over to a bench, grab a piece of wood and have a go at it.

All of our words won't compare to your first experience using one of their fine tools. That is all that it takes.

Joe

[Mike Henderson]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k :confused:

PS
A bit off topic but an excellent question. A Ferrari is built to go fast but in our modern cities and towns, you cannot drive it to its limits. You'll basically drive it the same as the Camry. Additionally, the Ferrari will suffer massive depreciation as soon as you drive it off the lot. And when you take it in for service, it'll cost you a fortune.

You're very limited in what you could haul in a Ferrari. And for some people, the Ferrari is not a very comfortable car.

As someone who has owned expensive sports cars in the past, I would buy the Camry today. It does what it is supposed to do at a reasonable price, it's easier on the environment, and it will last a long time. The total cost of the Camry is less than the first year's depreciation on the Ferrari.

"Wanting an expensive sports car is better than owning an expensive sports car."

Mike

[Robert Rozaieski]

Guess what they used for tools in comparison to what we have available. Even a cheap craftsman plane is better than what was available to most back them
Obviously you've never used a well tuned wooden plane ;). The tools they used were exceptionally hand made by master toolmakers, not a factory in China. Just ask George Wilson. The tools they used in the 18th and early 19th centuries were not the archaic, primitive items that many make them out to be. All my planes are woodies and probably 150 years old or thereabouts and they perform just as well as a modern day "Ferrari".


...tools are by far the least of the factors that a person needs to posses when it comes to making a "masterpiece"...
Yes!:D Skills with the tools are far more important than the tools themselves. However, there is a difference between the inexpensive tools made today like the cheapo Buck Brothers planes sold by HD and the premium stuff.

I don't typically buy these new premium tools not because I have something against LN or LV or Bridge City or any of the boutique infill makers or any other premium tool maker for that matter but simply because I can't typically afford them and not many makers are making replicas of 18th century tools (my preferred style of tool). In fact, I equate the new premium toolmakers to the toolmakers from the 18th century. 200 years ago, tools were exclusively made by what today we would call a boutique maker. I think if you looked at a comparative cost of typical planes chisels and saws from the 18th century, you'd find that their cost was closer to the LNs and LVs of today rather than the Craftsmans and the Buck Brothers. Craftsmen from the 18th century depended on their tools for their livelyhood. Most of us don't.

Consider this, an 18th century cabinetmaker's tool kit would probably have cost them several months pay if they had to buy everything new. Most earned many of their tools as a form of pay during their apprenticeship, which took years. Many other tools were self made.

So, can a modern Craftsman plane be made to perform like a LN? Absolutely. However, when you consider the time invested in remachining/filing the bed, the mating surfaces between the frog and body, the sole, etc. the prices get a little closer. If you typically put a price on your time, go with a more premium tool to start. If you consider the tool tuning part of the enjoyment of the craft, buy the less expensive tool and learn how to make it perform.

I'm with John S. I'm cheap and I like real old tools so if I can get a tool I need used and make it work, I do. My try plane is one of my best and I paid $1. However, when I don't want to put in the time it would take to find what I want used (chisels are a good example) I won't hesitate to buy a new premium tool (my chisels are London pattern AI and my carving tools are new Henry Taylor).

[Ben Rafael]

Then buy the Craftsman.
It will take you at least $140 of your time to make it work decently and it still wont be as good as the LN out of the box.

[John Schreiber]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k :confused:

PS
I think that a Lie-Nielsen is actually pretty close to a fully loaded Camry.

When I was making my decision I was thinking in terms of wrist watches. I like good watches that last such as a nice Seiko or Citizen. It seemed to me that Lie-Nielsen was a Rolex. What I found was that Lie-Nielsen is more equivalent to a good Seiko. The $30 Craftsman is roughly equivalent to the watches in plastic packages hanging on a peg at Wal-mart.

For Rolex, see something like Holtey (http://www.holteyplanes.com/) or Marcou. (http://www.marcouplanes.co.nz/) To compare with cars, they probably qualify as a high end BMW or Lexis. I've seen pictures of Ferrari equivalent planes out there, but I don't know their names.

[Ben Davis]

Don't forget that you are purchasing a service contract for the life of the tool, not yours. If, when you are hitting hole-in-ones on the great golf course in the sky, your son has a problem with "Dad's old LN plane", he just calls up the company, sends the tool, pays shipping and gets back a totally functioning and tuned item.

[Bill Stoffels]

I tried one Lie Nielsen and now have 4 within a month .
There is always better. but for quality and usage these fit the bill for me .
The Marcou type for me would be a museum piece, a beautiful product but same functionality
Just my opinion
Bill

[Rick Cicciarelli]

Yeah, I've watched the videos of the guys working with their LN planes. FIRST off, I need to learn what all I can do with a basic set of planes. This is one area that I was never really exposed to much when I was growing up. I do love the appeal of working with a fine set of hand tools though. I also love watching the guys in the video pull off translucent shavings of wood using their LN planes. Again, I am not saying that they are not worth it...it is just interesting to look at the two extreme price points. One could argue the same thing for many tools...I could have gone out and gotten a cheap Ryobi router for $59.00. Instead I chose to purchase a nice a nice Bosch for over $200 and I love it.

[Ben Rafael]

I'd say the LN is more of a Lexus than a Camry. They both run well, are reliable and will last if taken care of. But the Lexus is far more comfortable and a pleasure to drive.
I'll keep my Tahoe though; I can barely fit in to most cars without banging my knees and elbows on everything.

[Jim Koepke]

Then buy the Craftsman.
It will take you at least $140 of your time to make it work decently and it still wont be as good as the LN out of the box.

Heck, it won't even be as good as the type 6 Stanley #4 I bought for $7.50.

jim

[Mike Cutler]

I know Lie-Nielsen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Craftsman, but boy, sometimes one needs reminding of the justification for spending $165 on a Lie-Nielsen block plane when you can buy a Craftsman for $36.

Rick

Something that sometimes gets lost in threads like this, is the relative cost comparison of an LN plane in 2009, versus a Stanley Bedrock in say 1939.
If a comparison os done to the prevailing average wage of the different eras, how much more is an LN in 2009 dollars than a Stanley Bedrock in 1939 Dollars.( I'm using the Bedrock Series as a comparison here because that is the plane that LN is based on). Bedrock planes were expensive then, and in good condition still are today.

Another point to make is the cost of the raw material we are working with. Wood is expensive, and isn't getting any cheaper, no matter domestic or imported. Having a quality tool that is predicatable in it's perfromance can be of a cost benefit when weighed against making a mistake, or having to redo work, or go over it a second time.
Does it mean that an LN is an absolute necessity? No, but you should try to obtain the highest quality tool you can afford.I hate to be a snob, but I don't believe a new Craftsman tool is the tool you want. I actually think you'd be better off buying a 50 year old Craftsman for a few dollars at a flea market, than a new one.( At one time Craftsman was a well respected line, that represented quality at a good price, but I think Sears lost sight of that long ago. Which was too bad actually)

LN, or LV are tools that are built too last. Well made, durable, accurate. They will survive as a functional, quality tool for as long as they cared for properly.
I know that sometimes I get caught up in "babying" my LN's and using my refurb'd Stanley's, and MF's for the "rough work", but then I'll yank out my LN's and use them for their intended purpose.;)

[Dean Karavite]

This is my first and only LN plane, but it will not be my last. The whole slippery slope thing is before me. This is probably the best functioning and designed tool I own. It is my favorite tool to use. I have three cheap block planes and they were nothing but frustration and a hassle. I spent hours on a cheapo Groz and it performs okay, but you can't really trust it. The LN just killed it right out of the box.

Funny story, just today I was working on a cabinet project and had my trusty LN plane. My wife never ever notices my tools let alone says anything about them, even the Festool stuff. Today she actually stopped in her tracks and said something like, "Wow, look at that plane. That is amazing. You should do more projects that use hand tools like this..." She wouldn't stop talking about it!

Did I marry the right woman or what? Of course we didn't talk about how much it cost, but even the best marriage must have a few secrets!:D

[Don C Peterson]

...Even a cheap craftsman plane is better than what was available to most back them... Proof positive that tools are by far the least of the factors that a person needs to posses when it comes to making a "masterpiece"...
YMMV;)

I don't want to be rude, but this is simply not true.

Since at least the 18th century, craftsmen were able to get tools that in function, were at or near the standards of the best tools we have today. With all the advances we've made in engineering, there's been precious little that actually increased the FUNCTION of hand tools. Our improvements have made great strides in making them more consistent and easier (cheaper) to make, but not necessarily better.

It is a common mistake, but a mistake nevertheless to think of our ancestors (or their tools) as "primitive".

[David Myers]

Heck, it won't even be as good as the type 6 Stanley #4 I bought for $7.50.

jim

Awright, that's a clear gloat that demands a picture (or a link to the thread that contains the original gloat). :)

[Eddie Darby]

The better the tool, the better the job .....but you have to know how to do the job.

I have cheapo planes, and I have some middle to top-end planes, and I enjoy them all, just that my go to planes when in a pinch all seem to be the planes from the top-end.

[Justin Green]

I can't remember where I read this, probably here. A Stanley hand plane back in the glory days cost the worker a week's salary. The LNs might be a tad cheaper than that by today's standards, depending on the plane and your salary.

[John Sanford]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k :confused:
PS

:rolleyes:

duh. Because its much easier to pick up hot chicks in a Ferrari than a Camry! :cool:

Unfortunately for the LN crowd, hot chicks don't seem to appreciate the difference between a LN and a Craftsman. If the truth were told, most hot chicks would be pondering exactly who the tool is if you were to extoll the virtues of the LN! ;)

All that aside, their is an implicit assumption in your question that is, well, stupid. Why stop at a Camry? Why drive an 18k Camry when you could drive a <1k used Dodge K car? In fact, why drive at all when you can take a bus, or ride a bike, or even walk? I mean, c'mon, all you want to do is get from Point A to Point B. A Camry is overkill for that!!!

Drive a Ferrari, or a Camry, or ride a Honda, or even, gak, a Harley, or a bicycle, or ride the bus, or walk. Do whatever it is that satisfies your value (both economic and personal) criteria.

As for hand planes, same gig. Just to be clear, ME ain't signing up to be a party to your assumption. U are going solo.

[Clay Thigpen]

I think we should turn this in for a television commercial for LN planes. I'll go ahead and be the first Volunteer to be the Professional Hand tool User on a well secured Maple board. Zing :cool:. At some point I will own a LN or it's 18th to mid 19th C. predecessor.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I would respectfully suggest that not all the tools made back in the day were great. I am pretty sure there was cheap junk then to, but the cheap junk did not last a couple of centuries.

Case in point in the Tool Chest Of Benjamin Seaton it was mentioned that the hollow and round sets were made from second rate beech as some had knots in them. This set survivied because it wasn't used much and stayed in the family until a museum got their hands on it.

Also a question that is a bit off topic, back in the day that is say 1950's or so who made craftsmen chisels, I just saw a set of three at an antique mall yesterday really heavy with a lot of possibly nickel in the mix as they were a bit shiny, and they were socket chisels that looked a lot like Stanley 750's?

[Tony Zaffuto]

In a box lot at an auction I got a socket chisel, marked Fulton, which I believe was a Craftsman brand way back in the day. The chisel somewhat resembles a 750 and is plated. If you think some modern chisels are tough to flatten the back, you ought to try flattening one that has plating on it!

I gave up on it and it sits in a box that one day will be a "box lot"!

T.Z.

[george wilson]

Plenty of second rate junk was made in the old days.I have done plenty of rehardening and retempering old tools that people in Williamsburg bought privately to use. Some of them were good brands like Witherby,Butcher,etc. I've seen them come in with cutting edges bent back like fish hooks,or way too hard,and chipping off. I've seen welded bits come loose,due to never being properly welded.

These were 19th.C. tools,not even getting into the 20th.C. junk.

[Jim Koepke]

Funny story, just today I was working on a cabinet project and had my trusty LN plane. My wife never ever notices my tools let alone says anything about them, even the Festool stuff. Today she actually stopped in her tracks and said something like, "Wow, look at that plane. That is amazing. You should do more projects that use hand tools like this..." She wouldn't stop talking about it!

Did I marry the right woman or what? Of course we didn't talk about how much it cost, but even the best marriage must have a few secrets!:D

Break it to her slowly with a quality and value cost a little more approach. Sharpen the blade and take the thinnest shaving you can and save it for when she is reading or during a commercial. Then hold it in front of her so she can see through it and tell her the plane she thought was so cool made that shaving.

If done before your birthday and household budget allowing, you could say something about how one of these days you wanted to get another plane from the same family.

This works especially well if you have just completed a project for her.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Awright, that's a clear gloat that demands a picture (or a link to the thread that contains the original gloat). :)

OK, it took a while, but I did find the original gloat post. The plane in the middle is the type 6 #4. The one on the left is a Bedrock 604 and the one on the right is a type 6 #4-1/2. Since then, I have bought two more type 6 #4 bodies and one frog. Have not put them together yet. Probably should and start selling off the excess.


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=76010

Here is the thread with pictures of how they looked after a little fettling:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=78317

jim

[Mat Ashton]

Hold on there. Tools used "back then" for masterpieces were in most cases, the very best available. They were not cheap. They were protected and cared for and passed on. Those old tools were made from better materials than most of the mass produced tools we see at our hardware stores. Sure, skills are important to our craft. However, for me, the pleasure of doing it is more important. And I get much more pleasure making shavings with my LN than grinding, and readjusting a lesser plane.

Well they were not all the best available... Yes there were those that could afford the best but they were, like today, in the minority. And even if they were the best available they were still substandard compared to what is readily available today. I consider Veritas to be readily available to the masses by the way; 40 plus years ago it was Stanley... A bedrock was and still is a much better plane than any available 250 plus years ago - there's no questioning that. I can only imagine what those back then could have achieved if they had what we take for granted today... But if you were to produce the below pictures with what was available 250 years ago most would consider you a furniture making god... Both produced in the mid to late 1700's.

[Mat Ashton]

I don't want to be rude, but this is simply not true.

Since at least the 18th century, craftsmen were able to get tools that in function, were at or near the standards of the best tools we have today. With all the advances we've made in engineering, there's been precious little that actually increased the FUNCTION of hand tools. Our improvements have made great strides in making them more consistent and easier (cheaper) to make, but not necessarily better.

It is a common mistake, but a mistake nevertheless to think of our ancestors (or their tools) as "primitive".

I think you're forgetting that in that day, as today, the creme de la creme of hand tools were not available to the masses. Most used the cheaper stuff that we all resign ourselves to today. In 200 hundred years you'll see many of LN and better planes being sold as coveted collectors but very few craftmans. Why because no one coveted and cherished the cheap stuff - only the expensive stuff and that's why it survives the centuries. At best what's available to the collector today from the 1700s is maybe 10% (I suspect far less) of what was out there being used at the time - the stuff no one wanted to preserve because it was cheap run of the mill stuff...

[Robert Rozaieski]

A bedrock was and still is a much better plane than any available 250 plus years ago - there's no questioning that.

I think there is questioning that. Use a Clark & Williams plane or any well tuned wooden plane and see for yourself. The tools used to make the pieces in the 18th century were absolutely not primitive, not archaic and not inferior. The cabinetmakers at Colonial Williamsburg use exact replicas of 18th century tools to make exact replicas of the exact pieces you have pictured. These folks are living proof that the tools were just as good. Just because they didn't have milling machines and surface grinders doesn't mean they couldn't make quality tools.

[Mike Henderson]

I have to side with Robert on this. Our ancestors were us, meaning they were just as smart and skillful as we are. The difference is usually time, meaning it may take longer to produce an accurate tool, and keep it in tune, than buying a well made modern tool (such as a LN). It may also take more time to do a woodworking task, such as stock preparation (our modern power jointers and planers make short work of stock preparation).

But from my own experience, I'm convinced you can do anything with a wooden plane that you can do with a modern metal plane. I don't find it as easy to adjust a wooden plane as a modern metal plane, but once I have it adjusted it works as well.

As George Wilson commented earlier, I'm sure that not all the plane blades were good - made with the right amount of carbon and heat treated correctly. But once you got a good iron, it would last a very long time in a wooden plane.

We also have better methods of sharpening tools today, but our ancestors were able to sharpen their tools sufficient to their needs.

I feel confident that if I were transported back to an 18th century woodworking shop, I would be able to build quality furniture. I wouldn't be as fast as some of the younger or the more experienced workers, but I could do it, and do as well as I do today in my powered shop.

Mike

[Don C Peterson]

I think you're forgetting that in that day, as today, the creme de la creme of hand tools were not available to the masses. Most used the cheaper stuff that we all resign ourselves to today. In 200 hundred years you'll see many of LN and better planes being sold as coveted collectors but very few craftmans. Why because no one coveted and cherished the cheap stuff - only the expensive stuff and that's why it survives the centuries. At best what's available to the collector today from the 1700s is maybe 10% (I suspect far less) of what was out there being used at the time - the stuff no one wanted to preserve because it was cheap run of the mill stuff...

Certainly there were differing quality of tools, and I take your point about the good stuff being what we have because it was what got taken care of. There is some validity to that point, I've made exactly the same point when it comes to clothes and furniture of the time. This fact, I think, does tend to make our view of history overly romantic, but that's another topic...

However, I do think that tools were a bit different than most other goods of the day. Apprenticeship systems generally sifted out those who were would-be hacks and would teach a craftsman to appreciate and properly care for quality tools. It also gave the craftsmen time to acquire their tools.

Without the modern methods of production (and dare I say outsourcing to China, India, etc...?), there wasn't a great deal of savings in making a cheap plane versus a competent one, at least not compared to the difference in cost today between making a LN and a Groz. So, I don't think there was quite as much differentiation in quality then as there is today, and I still maintain that a good quality hand tool from the 18th or 19th centuries can hold its own against our best.

[Rod Sheridan]

I think well made tools are less expensive than they ever were.

My FIL retired from a litetime as a cabinet maker, having served his apprenticeships in England. I was looking at stuff in his tool chest one day and remarked about a nice plane.

His response was that it should be, it cost him a fortnights wage when he was an apprentice.

Most people today purchase a Veritas plane for aproximately a days wage.

Unfortunately for some people, cost is the only measure, so they miss a lot in life.

Regards, Rod.

[george wilson]

I had to work with 18th.C. hand tools for many years,and really produced my finest work with them. If you google george wilson guitar maker,the marquetry covered guitar,and the highly inlaid lute were made entirely with hand tools in public. I made a wooden fret saw of yew wood,whose throat was deep enough to encompass the entire guitar to saw the marquetry out.

It takes training and skill development to use planes that have no adjustment mechanisms. They can be adjusted to take off shavings as fine as any LN plane if the user has the skill.

Look back farther in history. At the Metropolitan Museum of art in New York,last summer,I saw a special exhibit of inlaid stone tables and "paintings" in inlaid stone. In one example,they still had the original oil painting from which the stone copy was made.It was amazing how well the stone craftsmen pulled it off. The oil painting was old and faded,but the stone's colors were as fresh as the day it was made. The work from the 16th.C. was better quality than the 18th.C. examples. The inlays fit tighter,and the art work was superb.

It couldn't have been the availability of superior tools in the 16th.C. that was responsible for the better quality. It was a stricter tradition of craftsmanship and a demand for better work from a more enlightened clientele that enhanced the work.

That intricate marquetry was sawn out with iron wire saws using sand as a cutting agent. Yet,there was not 100th.of an inch gap in the fitting of the inlays in the earlier work. Later,it was more like 1/64" tolerance.

Earlier,in countries like Italy,the system was so strict that you had to go into the same trade your father was in. England was more democratic. that old system did produce remarkable pieces of work,though it was,no doubt,harder on the craftsman who had to live up to standards or starve.

[Brian Kent]

One testimony to the relative cost of fine tools now and long ago is the number of us who can take up fine woodworking as a hobby. Many here are professionals, but a lot of us are building our skills and tools slowly, over time, with leftover time and income. Most of my hand tools are old rehabs or hand-made tools, but I do greatly appreciate my one LN and my one LV plane. I am grateful to have access to great tools even though this is not my job.

[Richard Niemiec]

It couldn't have been the availability of superior tools in the 16th.C. that was responsible for the better quality. It was a stricter tradition of craftsmanship and a demand for better work from a more enlightened clientele that enhanced the work.



As my father used to quote to me: " 'Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools."

Better quality tools will certainly make the job go faster, but has little to do with the end product..... that's where the craftsman, or more appropriately, the artist, comes into play.

[Mark Roderick]

I have my own personal anecdote on this score.

Way back when, I was a young homeowner with no tools, knowledge, or skills. I needed to cut a rectangular opening from a soffit to install a simple vent. I went to the local Rickel's (you see, that was LONG ago) and bought a Black and Decker jigsaw. I returned to my house and found that the Black & Decker jigsaw wouldn't cut through wood! I spent about half an hour and nearly burned up the saw just cutting a small rectangle.

A couple of years later I bought my first real tool, a Bosch jigsaw. Wow. So THAT's what a jigsaw is supposed to do.

Some "tools" in the consumer market are so bad they don't even deserve to be called tools - they simply can't be used for their intended purpose. My Black & Decker jigsaw wouldn't cut wood. In this context, you'd never say the Bosch was "expensive" and the Black & Decker was "affordable," you'd say that any amount you paid for the Black & Decker was throwing money into the garbage.

That might be true of a Craftsman hand plane also. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Brian Kent]

I'd say the LN is more of a Lexus than a Camry. They both run well, are reliable and will last if taken care of. But the Lexus is far more comfortable and a pleasure to drive.
I'll keep my Tahoe though; I can barely fit in to most cars without banging my knees and elbows on everything.

Hey Ben, I just did a price check on Edmunds.com.
2009 Tahoe list prices from $37K to $62K with options.
2009 Lexus GX 470 SUV list prices from $41K to $55K with options.
:D

ps. Just having fun. Mine is an $18K 2004 CRV.

[David Keller NC]

"As my father used to quote to me: " 'Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools."

Better quality tools will certainly make the job go faster, but has little to do with the end product..... that's where the craftsman, or more appropriately, the artist, comes into play."

While there's a kernel of truth to this, I can personally verify that a poorly made and designed tool will be extremely difficult to get a good result out of, no matter the level of mastery. Note that I said a poorly made and designed, not "aesthetically pleasing vs. ugly".

My thought on this is that a superior craftsman recognizes a tool that can't be saved by tuning, and doesn't have any in his tool box. I've personally experienced this while looking for antique wooden bench planes to re-tune and use in the shop. They're a lot of them on the collector market that are in superb shape, and usually have a problem that prevents their being "used up" - a twisted stock, for example, or an iron that's so stuck it requires a crowbar to remove it (those last ones, by the way, often are the best ones to buy and use, because there's nothing wrong with the wooden stock - and I'm not kidding about using a crowbar to extract the iron! :D)

[george wilson]

We had a number of old tools in the collecton at the museum,which were only there besause they were too bad to use. One of the worst examples is a large wooden treadle lathe that someone spent a great deal of time on. It is in excellent condition,but was not used. I can't recall what all is wrong with this lathe. it is a traversing mandrel screw cutting lathe,modeled after 18th.C. French threading lathes. Somehow,the maker screwed up,and the lathe cannot work as designed. I feel that whoever made it had seen one of these French lathes and tried to reproduce it himself,but did not quite get his information straight. So,there it sits,in beautiful shape,unusable,but too nice for the maker throw away!!

[Ben Rafael]

Hey Ben, I just did a price check on Edmunds.com.
2009 Tahoe list prices from $37K to $62K with options.
2009 Lexus GX 470 SUV list prices from $41K to $55K with options.
:D

ps. Just having fun. Mine is an $18K 2004 CRV.

The LX suv is what you want to compare to a Tahoe. The GX is smaller.
The LX was about $15,000 more when I was looking for a car. I liked it but that was way too much dough.
I'd love to drive a normal coupe but I just dont fit. Even the GX was a tight fit for me.

$15,000 could probably buy me everything that LN makes or will make for the next 100 years....and I'd have a lot of change left over.

[Jim Barrett]

When I recently spoke to Rob Cosman about hand tools to bring to his class this summer he was in full support of LN....he really believes in their product...and he has not been associated with them for over a year...I recently purchased a LN 5 1/2 HAF and it is a beauty...pricey but a definite heirloom....I went the ebay fix em up Stanley version....no comparison...
Regards,
Jim

[Ben Rafael]

Is LN really that pricey? It's made in the US. Their customer service is second to none. Their tools work out of the box. They'll last several lifetimes. They hold their value well; easy to resell for a good price.
I think the price is reasonable for what you get.

[Mike Henderson]

Is LN really that pricey? It's made in the US. Their customer service is second to none. Their tools work out of the box. They'll last several lifetimes. They hold their value well; easy to resell for a good price.
I think the price is reasonable for what you get.
You're right, of course, Ben. But many woodworkers just don't have the money to buy tools at the price level of LN and LV, especially when they're just setting up shop.

So an older Stanley falls into the same category - the price is reasonable for what you get - but the total outlay is more in line with their pocketbook.

Mike

[Charles Shenk]

Is LN really that pricey? It's made in the US. Their customer service is second to none. Their tools work out of the box. They'll last several lifetimes. They hold their value well; easy to resell for a good price.
I think the price is reasonable for what you get.


Exactly! I think they are very fairly priced. I wish more companies operated like Lie Nielsen.

That $2 dollar cup of coffee everyday is pretty pricey too.

[glenn bradley]

Wow, I hadn't checked in on this thread in awhile. It is getting nearly "Festoolian" or "EZ Smartonian" in scope. The outside world can never say we Creekers don't have an opinion or that we are shy about sharing it :D.

[John Keeton]

$15,000 could probably buy me everything that LN makes or will make for the next 100 years....and I'd have a lot of change left over.But Ben, will it buy "all you want" over the next 100 years;)

My guess is that if I put $15,000 in my PayPal account, it wouldn't last 5 years, let alone 100!!

[Wilbur Pan]

But Ben, will it buy "all you want" over the next 100 years;)

My guess is that if I put $15,000 in my PayPal account, it wouldn't last 5 years, let alone 100!!

Hi John,

I've seen how you go about making purchase decisions, and what you get for selling your tools. $15,000 will last you a lot longer than 5 years. ;)

Me, I'd burn through it in a weekend. ;)

[Ben Rafael]

But Ben, will it buy "all you want" over the next 100 years;)

My guess is that if I put $15,000 in my PayPal account, it wouldn't last 5 years, let alone 100!!

All I want for woodworking it would easily handle.

I just want a couple of planes, a better Table saw, and a good set of chisels. I have a lot of lumber; I'm set lumberwise for at least 5 or 6 years.

I'm actually selling or trading few tools I have no use for.
When I wanted to by a MM16 band saw I sold tools I didn't need to raise money(and make space).
I am by nature a minimalist, I hate having things I dont use, need, or want.


Mike,
I agree that money people dont have the money for LN or LV. I sold a router table to a man on craigslist who barely had the $50 for it. He wanted to get into using planes but he couldn't even afford a decent used plane. I gave him an old stanley block plane I had that only needed the blade reground so he'd have something to start with.
I guess affordability is relative.

[Don C Peterson]

I guess affordability is relative.

Yes it is. I'm a fan of LN, I think they offer extraordinary value, however I'll be the first to admit that there is a bit of "Sticker shock" involved for most of us...

[Richard Niemiec]

I agree that money people dont have the money for LN or LV. I sold a router table to a man on craigslist who barely had the $50 for it. He wanted to get into using planes but he couldn't even afford a decent used plane. I gave him an old stanley block plane I had that only needed the blade reground so he'd have something to start with.
I guess affordability is relative.


Yes, totally relative. When folks ask about getting started and some immediately urge LN or LV purchases, I sometimes cringe, as a block plane and a #4 and #5 from those makers can easily exceed somebody's weekly take home pay, especially during these times of economic distress. Frankly, I'm a big believer in older stanleys for your bench plane basics, and hell, even block planes. Tuned up and with properly ground and sharpened original irons they can be made to perform quite well; my normal user 3, 4, 4 1/2, 5, 5 1/2, 6 and 7s are all stanleys, three have Hock irons (principally because the originals were used up), and I while I do have LN block planes, I also have 9 1/2 and 60 1/2 stanley versions that get regular use as well. I have several other LV and LN planes, generally shoulder and bevel up variants generally not readily available in vintage models because of the collectors, and those were funded from sales of planes that were users but since I traded up to better examples, condition wise, they were surplus but fine users nonetheless.

My experience, and I'm no rocket scientist, was to learn to tune, to sharpen and use the older planes, understand how and why they work, and make them work well. It can be done on a budget, and with spending some gas money to go to flea markets and garage sales.... ymmv.

[Mat Ashton]

I think there is questioning that. Use a Clark & Williams plane or any well tuned wooden plane and see for yourself. The tools used to make the pieces in the 18th century were absolutely not primitive, not archaic and not inferior. The cabinetmakers at Colonial Williamsburg use exact replicas of 18th century tools to make exact replicas of the exact pieces you have pictured. These folks are living proof that the tools were just as good. Just because they didn't have milling machines and surface grinders doesn't mean they couldn't make quality tools.

Warnig - ramblings ahead

But you're forgetting that Clarke and Williams, HNT... are the creme de la creme of wooden hand tools and the price reflects that. Find a wooden hand plane in the price range of a craftsman and you will most likely want to throw it in the fire place and grab the craftsman - especially if it were made in the 1700s. The quality is proportional to the price, most often; mujingfan being the exception... Grab hold of a top of the line wooden plane where the blade is secured with a wedge and then a top of the line metal plane with a Norris style adjuster... You'll, like 99.9% of the population, go back to the metal plane because, over all, it's superior to the wooden plane (superior being a subjective adjective).

In the day when metal planes were introduced wooden planes would have been substantially less but the metal planes displaced them. Why, because the people using them day in and day out saw the superiority of them. The advent of the cast iron plane was the final nail in the coffin of the wooden plane (excluding the molding planes as no one has come up with a good metal alternative), as they were very cheap to make - relatively speaking. Clarke and Williams, HNT... are a new "phenomenon" I suspect more so because of a sudden popularity of woodworking tool collecting and hobby furniture making. Since I entered the woodworking profession in 1982 I have never seen a person pull out and use a wooden plane - not to say they don't exist but they are a rare breed.

I subscribe to the belief that the more things change the more they stay the same. In that we today have many of the same social influences and concerns of yesteryear. I.e. we all want the best tools but we can't afford them so we settle for what ever we can afford which can be very often not very good. And! that most furniture makers back then were the same as most today... In that it's simply a job they do because it puts food on the table. Yes there are those, and I have met many, that take great pride in what they do but they're in the minority. Often working alone and making barely enough to live a comfortable life (most I've known had a spouse who was the "real" and often very understanding bread winner or had another source of income) but they do it because they love it. And the money they invested in the tools is proportional to their attitude towards the work they did. So then like today there were many that toiled along with substandard tools but over all still produced some fine examples of furniture.

[John Keeton]

Hi John,

I've seen how you go about making purchase decisions, and what you get for selling your tools. $15,000 will last you a lot longer than 5 years. ;)

Me, I'd burn through it in a weekend. ;)
Wilbur, it is so hard to hide the truth when posting on the web!! Like Ben, I am a minimalist - even though I teased him a bit with the comment. But, I do enjoy trying new toys. I don't hesitate to buy a tool I want (if it is a fair purchase) and then sell it or one of the others I have. I also don't mind if I lose a little in the process - the price paid for having an opportunity to play with a new toy!

I use every tool I have and collecting tools is just not of interest to me. I am also not tied to traditionalism. Both LN and LV make some quality tools, but I am drawn more to LV because of the innovative designs.

Like others, I do believe that it always is cheaper to buy quality, and I prefer dealing with companies that are small enough to care. That isn't always possible, but one can strive to that end.

I don't own any old Stanleys, etc. My only "old" plane is the one my Dad owned - a Defiance (Bailey cheapy!) - that I finally have tuned and functional. It is not nor ever will be for sale - and wouldn't be worth much anyway.

I will not be competing with you guys for any oldies! But, I might for that next LN or LV that draws my eye;)

[Robert Rozaieski]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this Mat :). I don't know if you have ever used a well tuned wooden plane or seen the cabinetmakers at Williamsburg work with them but from your responses I'm guessing you have not. Forgive me if I am mistaken, perhaps you have and had a bad experience with them. I know I did years ago when I first tried to use one.


Warnig - ramblings ahead

But you're forgetting that Clarke and Williams, HNT... are the creme de la creme of wooden hand tools and the price reflects that. Find a wooden hand plane in the price range of a craftsman and you will most likely want to throw it in the fire place and grab the craftsman - especially if it were made in the 1700s. The quality is proportional to the price, most often; mujingfan being the exception... Grab hold of a top of the line wooden plane where the blade is secured with a wedge and then a top of the line metal plane with a Norris style adjuster... You'll, like 99.9% of the population, go back to the metal plane because, over all, it's superior to the wooden plane (superior being a subjective adjective).

Clark & Williams are the creme de la creme of wooden planes today because no one else is manufacturing them the way they do. I've never used a Mujingfang because I use western tools so I can't comment on them, however, comparing the wooden planes manufactured at the time they were replaced by the metal versions (i.e. the late 19th century) to the wooden planes manufactured in the 1700s is like comparing a LN to a Groz. In the 1700s, planes were made by master toolmakers just like C&W. As time went on, into the 19th century, many of the wooden planes began to lose the features that historians are able to use to identify them as 18th century tools. This made the tools less comfortable to use and perhaps perform not as well as their predecessors. Next came mass production. A prime example is that Auburn Tool Co. and Ohio Tool Co. used inmate labor to manufacture their planes. Hardly skilled toolmakers. In addition, planes that were once manufactured in multiple pitches (i.e. common, half, York) were no longer made after mass production began to take hold and common pitch became all that was available. So yes, the quality went down. This is the time when metal planes began to take over the market.

I have used the metal planes with all types of adjusters, LN, LV, vintage Stanley and others. They all worked very well. I used vintage Stanleys for years. I owned several LV planes. I don't any longer. I sold them all and now prefer wooden planes instead. I have no intention of like 99.9% of the population going back to metal planes because I don't feel they are superior. This try plane cost me $1. It performs every bit as well as the old Stanleys and LVs I have owned.
112976


In the day when metal planes were introduced wooden planes would have been substantially less but the metal planes displaced them. Why, because the people using them day in and day out saw the superiority of them. The advent of the cast iron plane was the final nail in the coffin of the wooden plane (excluding the molding planes as no one has come up with a good metal alternative), as they were very cheap to make - relatively speaking. Clarke and Williams, HNT... are a new "phenomenon" I suspect more so because of a sudden popularity of woodworking tool collecting and hobby furniture making. Since I entered the woodworking profession in 1982 I have never seen a person pull out and use a wooden plane - not to say they don't exist but they are a rare breed.
Don't be so certain about that. In the day when metal planes were introduced, several of the wooden plane manufacturers still made a premium line of planes and they were priced higher than the metal versions. And they still outsold the metal versions in the early days of the metal planes. Only when these premium tools became harder to come by did the metal planes begin to take over the marketplace. It was not an instantaneous transition.


I subscribe to the belief that the more things change the more they stay the same. In that we today have many of the same social influences and concerns of yesteryear. I.e. we all want the best tools but we can't afford them so we settle for what ever we can afford which can be very often not very good. And! that most furniture makers back then were the same as most today... In that it's simply a job they do because it puts food on the table. Yes there are those, and I have met many, that take great pride in what they do but they're in the minority. Often working alone and making barely enough to live a comfortable life (most I've known had a spouse who was the "real" and often very understanding bread winner or had another source of income) but they do it because they love it. And the money they invested in the tools is proportional to their attitude towards the work they did. So then like today there were many that toiled along with substandard tools but over all still produced some fine examples of furniture.
I compare the cabinetmakers of the 18th century to the Ethan Allens of today. In the 18th century, if you needed a piece of furniture you went to a cabinetshop. Today, 99% of the population goes to a furniture store carrying mass produced import crap. A very small portion of the population goes to a professional woodworker/furnituremaker for their furniture these days. I don't think the workers in the factories are using second rate machinery any more than I think a master cabinetmaker in the 1700s would settle on a second rate tool. I think the hobbiests are the ones driving the [hand] tool market today, not the professionals.

I guess my overall point in this discussion is not that junk tools were not manufactured in the 18th century, they certainly were just as they are today. However, a common plane in the 18th century that would have been used by a master cabinetmaker was likely more like a C&W than a piece of junk. These masters knew good tools and knew how to separate the junk from the good stuff just as they do today. They would not have used junk tools.

In my experience using all of the mentioned tools LN or LV or Stanley Bedrock or whatever are not necessarily better tools than what was commonly available in the 18th century. I use wooden planes myself, mostly from the 19th century as 18th century tools are very rare, and the surfaces I plane are equal to those planed by a LN or LV. Once tuned, there is no reason that these tools should be thought of as inferior to any metal plane. They are every bit the equal of a premium metal plane in use. And the wood that is being planed doesn't know the difference between a LN, LV, Stanley, old woodie or a Japanese plane.

Good discussion! :D

[David Keller NC]

I'll add a couple of points to Bob's thoughts.

In the 19th century, when metal planes displaced wooden planes as the tool of choice on the job site, the market was almost entirely carpenters and finish carpenters, not cabinetmakers. They had long been superceded in the marketplace by factory-made furniture; the age of handwork, at least as far as furniture making, had died out in the 1840s, some 40 years before the widespread adoption of metal planes.

For a joiner that was moving from job to job, finesse was not the major thing in a hand plane - impervious operation despite wild swings in temperature and humidity were. On that count, a wooden plane doesn't do as well as a metal plane, but in a cabinetmaker's shop, it's not all that important a characteristic.

Finally, many would-be wooden plane users pick up an antique at the flea market, find it impossibly frustrating to use, and discard it with the assumption that wooden tools were just crude predecessors to modern metal planes. This is a false impression. Many of these tools were superior users when they were created, but 150 years of weather changes, hard use and storage in a barn has significantly opened the mouth, warped the sole, and perhaps cracked the cheeks. Properly tuned, these tools are capable of every bit as good a result as a modern manufactured metal plane, and at significant savings in effort (they are much lighter and much easier to push across the wood).

[george wilson]

I used wooden planes in the museum for many years,and still use them,though I have many LN's,and some old Stanleys,as well as several I have made,both wooden,and dovetailed steel and brass.

Wooden planes can be properly adjusted to do work as fine as any plane. Plus,they slip over the work more easily. They are less likely to accidentally damage a piece of furniture that is being built than a heavy,metal plane.

A modern person who is not an experienced woodworker will generally not understand wooden planes,and certainly not know how to adjust them,etc. How many people these days cannot drive a straight shift car?

I think as people get more gadgetry,they lose more ability to do things for themselves. I see more and more electronic guitar tuners hanging on guitars all the time.

Even the Romans had metal planes,though without blade adjustment screws,etc. They had metal planes in the 18th.C.,and more in the 19th.C.. Their cost was very high. Workmen were expected to have their own kit of tools including wooden planes. The shop might have a few metal ones for special use.

Everything people used 200 years ago required more careful handling and personal skill than the average person has today. Harpsichords and early pianos were lightly constructed,and required daily tuning,especially with no air conditioning or central heat.People had to take great care with fabrics,due to dyes that washed out. Bedspreads were sometimes cleaned by using erasers rather than washing. They erased so many square inches each day. There was no time for relaxing like we know it. In Switzerland,soldiers standing guard were required to knit stockings while keeping lookout.Other than sitting in church,it seems like everyone was required to be doing something all the time.

It is hard to imagine what care and diligence people had to have in the things they used daily.

I'm digressing,but my point is that people had to know a lot more about the fine points of using and maintaining their posessions,and tools.

Tools were no exception. I think we have gained ground in some areas,but lost a lot of ground in others.

[Joel Goodman]

George,

I'm still driving a stick shift - now that you've put "old fashioned" wooden planes in that light I want one. The only wooden plane I have is an ECE with the adjuster so it doesn't really count.

[Mat Ashton]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this Mat :).


I don't know if you have ever used a well tuned wooden plane or seen the cabinetmakers at Williamsburg work with them but from your responses I'm guessing you have not. Forgive me if I am mistaken, perhaps you have and had a bad experience with them. I know I did years ago when I first tried to use one.


Good discussion! :D


I agree with you there. :D

It's nice to bounce opinions off knowledgeable people such as yourself and other here.

In my early days of woodworking I had quite a few wooden planes. I was very fortunate as a 16 year old when I met a very old retiring furniture maker that sold me many of his planes for very cheap. Ended up selling off everything about 10 years later (except my carving chisels - couldn't bring myself to unload them) when my wife and I decided backpacking was what we wanted to do with ourselves. Now since I no longer make furniture for a living I'm starting to revisit my early days and pretty much only have hand tools (except for a lathe and bandsaw). I have one transitional stanley and quite like it and a few I've made myself but that's about it - for now.