Jointer Planer Combo - Any horror stories?

[Robin Johnston]

Hi everyone

Completely new to this board but have been avidly reading for several days, since I'm just starting up my own furniture business and am eager for any advice.

For the foreseeable future, I'll be working in a fairly confined basement (about 600 sq ft). I've been window shopping 8' jointers for the last week or so, and see myself spending at least around the $1000 mark, then adding a planer for maybe another $500.

However, I had an email from Taunton recently about a couple of new Jointer/Planer combos that are being launched, one a Grizzly, the other a Laguna. Interestingly, the Grizzly (model GO633) is well under $2k. Very interestingly, it's a 12".

I've no experience at all with combos, and I'm wondering to myself...

- If these are so cheap why doesn't everyone get them?
- Is it just the fact that they're new on the market, or that until now they have been closer to $5k?
- As with many combinations, has something been sacrificed in quality, in order to achieve affordability and versatility?
- Or are there other reasons sales have not gone through the roof in the US? Apparently, they are very popular in Europe.

If anyone has any words of warning about combos I'd love to hear them before I make a horribly expensive mistake with the Grizzly. Of course, any positive experiences would be welcome too!

Thanks.

[Jamie Buxton]

Welcome to SMC. Combos are often discussed here. Use SMC's Search function to find many threads about them.

Me, I've had one (a Hammer A3-31) for eight years now, and it has served me well.

[Todd Solomon]

Hi everyone
If anyone has any words of warning about combos I'd love to hear them before I make a horribly expensive mistake with the Grizzly. Of course, any positive experiences would be welcome too!

Thanks.

These are complex animals, and in some ways, you get what you pay for. If you were a hobbyist, you may want to consider the Grizzly, Jet, or entry-level Laguna. But since you're starting a business, I wouldn't want to risk going with anything less than a Hammer jointer-planer, made by Felder. Their 12" model is on sale now for $3099, has the Felder quick-change cutterhead (similar to Esta knives), and is a solid quality machine. A friend of mine has one, and I've seen it in action. Other choices are the Mini Max and Felder machines, but they'll cost more. I have owned a Mini Max and currently own a Felder jointer-planer, and recommend all three brands (MM, Felder, Hammer).

If the price of the Hammer is too high, I would stick with seperates. The Grizzly 8" jointers are nice machines. Complement it with a 15" 4-post planer, such as the Grizzly G0453, and you'll have decent machinery that should hold up to daily work in a 1-man shop. You can have both machines for less than the Grizzly 12" combo jointer-planer. If you have a little more budget, you may want to consider a wider jointer, provided your work justifies it. Going with seperates has the benefit of less change-over time as well. This is not important for a hobbyist, but may be for a professional.

What is your level of woodworking experience?

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Hi Robin...welcome to the forum.

Grizzly and Jet recently (within the last two years) introduced combinations machines under the $2,000 price point. Prior to that, European combos were all that were basically available with price points beginning at almost twice the amount. For me, the European machines seemed out of reach as a hobbyist. If I was professional, I'm not sure I'd want to fuss with a combo machine due to conversion and setting changes unless space was a severe issue.

Also, there were a couple of combo offerings by Hitachi and Makita years ago. However, these machines are no longer available. I also don't think they provided great value based on what Grizzly and Jet are now offering.

I think Grizzly and Jet will do a lot to advance the combo market in the US. However, these difficult economic times will likely pose a challenge for any new innovation.

-Jeff :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Robin, I own a Hammer A3-31 which replaced a General 8" jointer and General 14" planer.

Being Canadian I have never seen a Grizzly combination machine, however I spent a lot of time researching the machines prior to purchase.

Laguna Platinum..........I was extremely disapointed in the quality of the Laguna. It turned out that platinum meant made in Taiwan low end model. The tables flipped forward where they interfered with the operator. They were dropped out of the race.

MinMax FS30??.....Excellent machine, fit, finish, quality etc was top notch, however I didn't like the fence support, it stuck out the back of the machine. Combo's are about performance and space saving, so it lost on space. I think the fence has now been changed to the end mount like my Hammer and General jointer. Owners report it as excellent, which my research indicated also.

Hammer A3-31.....Same as the MM, excellence in machinery. Quick change knives, no tearout issues, no snipe, machine is powerful and is a space saver.

I ordered mine with the digital readout in the handwheel for planer elevation and it is accurate to 0.07mm.

The only issue with mine is that the mobility kit moved it along its wide dimension, so I built a mobile base that moves along the narrow dimension.

Felder.........Arguably the top of the heap in combination machines.......They're in the running for my next purchase.

Combo machine price is lower than comparable seperates, and performance is higher, with greater capacity.

I may now replace my General cabinet saw and shaper with a sliding saw/shaper. Same arguments, price, performance, capacity.

You won't be sorry if you purchase a Felder/Minimax/Hammer machine.

Regards, Rod.

[Wilbur Pan]

Or are there other reasons sales have not gone through the roof in the US? Apparently, they are very popular in Europe.

That by itself should tell you something about the good quality of these machines. European woodworkers would not use poor quality machines anymore than US woodworkers would.

The main reason there hasn't been a "need" for these machines in the US is that workspaces are bigger. In Europe, space is at a premium, and having a J/P combo saves a lot of space.

More importantly, you can get much more jointer capacity for your dollar by going with a combo machine. I have a Rikon 10" J/P combo, and I love the fact that I can get 10" jointing capacity for $650, although this particular model is no longer made, unfortunately. Of course, my machine isn't built to deal with the demands of a production environment.

The major considerations in getting a J/P combo machine are:

1. You might have to make some changes to your workflow, as switching from jointing to planing mode or vice versa will cause you to lose your settings. This is not insurmountable, just an adjustment. I've learned to joint everything at once, then plane everything.

2. J/P combos have shorter beds than standalone jointers. Much is made of this "limitation", but this is overblown, unless you have the need to routinely joint boards that are over 10' long.

[Tony Bilello]

By converting over from one mode to another you will lose time and your settings. Both are important.
A given piece of furniture has a certain value regardless of how long it takes you to build. People are paying for the end product and not for your time.

[Robin Johnston]

These are complex animals, and in some ways, you get what you pay for. If you were a hobbyist, you may want to consider the Grizzly, Jet, or entry-level Laguna. But since you're starting a business, I wouldn't want to risk going with anything less than a Hammer jointer-planer, made by Felder. Their 12" model is on sale now for $3099, has the Felder quick-change cutterhead (similar to Esta knives), and is a solid quality machine. A friend of mine has one, and I've seen it in action. Other choices are the Mini Max and Felder machines, but they'll cost more. I have owned a Mini Max and currently own a Felder jointer-planer, and recommend all three brands (MM, Felder, Hammer).

If the price of the Hammer is too high, I would stick with seperates. The Grizzly 8" jointers are nice machines. Complement it with a 15" 4-post planer, such as the Grizzly G0453, and you'll have decent machinery that should hold up to daily work in a 1-man shop. You can have both machines for less than the Grizzly 12" combo jointer-planer. If you have a little more budget, you may want to consider a wider jointer, provided your work justifies it. Going with seperates has the benefit of less change-over time as well. This is not important for a hobbyist, but may be for a professional.

What is your level of woodworking experience?

Your comments are exactly the reason I've been looking so seriously at the 8" jointers. I've been working wood for several years as a hobbyist, but dealing almost exclusively in softwoods.

My business is focussing on custom hardwood furniture. On this basis, I'm not going to be running miles of stock through on a tight deadline, but I do want something that will leave a surface that I can pretty much rely on for square (though of course I will run a Starrett over it to be sure), and that leaves a good surface for sanding. I generally start at about 180 grit and give 3 or 4 passes working up to about 400.

I'm British and only recently moved to the US, so apart from hand tools I'm starting from scratch (shipping weight costs and different electrical current meant I didn't import any of my old machines). I just came back from a 3 month course on working in hardwoods, so my skills are a lot further on than they were last summer.

If going with a standalone 8", I'm not really bothered about number of blades, but I am looking for a good length infeed/outfeed (70"+), and ideally a Rack & Pinion fence and parallelogram table height adjustment. However, as I'm new to the American market, the search for something I like is exhausting!

With a budget of $5k, this is where my head is at right now...

Table saw: I don't think funds will stretch to allow me to consider a SawStop but I like the Woodtek 148271.

Jointer: The Delta 37380 looks good, but doesn't have the parallelogram adjustment. For that, I'd be looking at an extra $500 for the 37365X. I may have to compromise here.

Planer: Not sure yet, but a 15" 4 post is what I'm most familiar with, so that's where I'm likely to look first. On the other hand I've also been thinking about a benchtop model for around $500, since I quite enjoy hand planing and sanding (some people can't understand that, but I find it relaxing).

I've already got my 14" bandsaw (Grizzly), router (Triton), drill press (Jet) so I'm almost there, but I'm really dithering about the jointer and planer and until I've made up my mind on those I don't know how much is left for the table saw. I kinda need to bite the bullet and make a decision, and I'm hoping the input of others will help push me off the fence I've spent the last 2 weeks sitting on!

[Todd Solomon]

If going with a standalone 8", I'm not really bothered about number of blades, but I am looking for a good length infeed/outfeed (70"+), and ideally a Rack & Pinion fence and parallelogram table height adjustment. However, as I'm new to the American market, the search for something I like is exhausting!

With a budget of $5k, this is where my head is at right now...

Table saw: I don't think funds will stretch to allow me to consider a SawStop but I like the Woodtek 148271.

Jointer: The Delta 37380 looks good, but doesn't have the parallelogram adjustment. For that, I'd be looking at an extra $500 for the 37365X. I may have to compromise here.

Planer: Not sure yet, but a 15" 4 post is what I'm most familiar with, so that's where I'm likely to look first. On the other hand I've also been thinking about a benchtop model for around $500, since I quite enjoy hand planing and sanding (some people can't understand that, but I find it relaxing)

Sounds like you've got a solid foundation to build your business upon. I'll just throw in a couple more comments, for what they're worth. If I were starting a business on that budget, I'd be conservative and go with proven models that lots of woodworkers have put to the test.

Table saw: If you can, go with a saw with a riving knife. Riving knives will virtually prevent kick-back, which was my biggest safety issue before getting a saw with one. Grizzly has reasonably priced machines with riving knives, and their cabinet saws have a good reputation. I haven't heard a lot about the Woodtek machinery, just seen it in catalogs.

Jointer: Grizzly makes a parallelogram 8" jointer for a reasonable price. Jointers are basic machines. As long as they are designed well, have flat tables, and you can adjust parellelism of tables, you should be good to go. Again, lots of folks with good experience with Grizzly jointers. I had a 12" Grizzly, an outstanding machine- dead flat tables, no vibration, excellent all the way around.

Planer: Two of the woodworking schools that I attended had Jet 15" 4-post planers, including Lonnie Bird's. They held up to the daily rigors of students punishing them, and performed excellent. That says a lot for this basic planer design. I had a benchtop DeWalt planer. Fine for a hobbyist, but lunchbox planers are too light duty for a professional shop, in my opinion. Mine broke in 3 weeks, but I think they've corrected the problem. I'd go with I know works, the Jet 15" or the similar Grizzly 15".

Any how, good luck in your new endeavor, and welcome to Saw Mill Creek!

[Andrew Joiner]

Hi Robin,

Here is what I would do first. Get prices from several WHOLESALE lumber companies on S3S hardwood. S3S means surfaced on both faces and straight ripped on 1 edge.

Then figure the time and energy it takes to process rough lumber in your shop. Also figure the cost of buying and sharpening/tuning machines and shoveling chips/dust collection costs.

Even if you got a huge jointer and planer for free,you would still have to lift and move heavy lumber many more times a job to get it into objects you get paid for. Time and human energy is limited even if your young and strong.

If you want to make money you will usually be ahead with paying for S3S.

If you can buy dry rough hardwood very cheap,milling yourself can pay off.

You could buy most of your stock S3S and have a smaller jointer and planer if needed.

In my wood business I paid a little extra for S3S. Rarely used my jointer or planer. It was more profitable.

Good Luck!

[Dave Anthony]

Any thoughts on the difference in quality between the Hammer A3-31 and the Jet JJP-12? There's almost $1K difference in price. Is the Hammer simply more heavy duty and able to survive in a production environment, or are there other benefits as well such as less snipe, flatter tables, faster knife changes, ??? Would a hobbyist notice the difference? I currently have a Dewalt 735 planer and a 6" benchtop jointer which is almost worthless. I'm considering buying either an 8" jointer or the Jet or Hammer combo. I'm a hobbysist working out of a 2 car garage, upcoming projects are bedroom furniture, coffee & end tables. Any advice?

[Paul Johnstone]

Here's a recent horror story http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=101348&highlight=grizzly+customer+service

[Todd Solomon]

Here's a recent horror story http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=101348&highlight=grizzly+customer+service

Wow, I just read the saga. Yikes.

My opinion is that Grizzly carries everything from low end to some decent top-notch machines. You get what you pay for. I personally think combo machines and sliding table saws are best left to the europeans, not Grizzly or Jet. MM and Felder have been doing it for decades, and have it down to a science. They also use quality components and engineering, and that's why the price is higher.

But I would have no reservation buying another Grizzly stand-alone jointer. Their wide belt sanders are another example of an industrial grade machine with exceptional performance. But Grizzly also has bottom-of-the-line stuff that is not going to measure up. There is no free lunch- you get what you pay for.

[Brian Tax]

I was seriously considering this machine for a hobbyist shop, but it seems to me that many people feel that Grizzly quality is slipping. Is this an isolated incident? Are there any recent happy customers of this machine G0634? I want to believe.

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

Has anyone actually bought and used the Jet JJP-12? I'm interested in this machine, especially with the deals currently floating around. I would love to see posts from folks with actual experiences.

[Dave Avery]

Has anyone actually bought and used the Jet JJP-12? I'm interested in this machine, especially with the deals currently floating around. I would love to see posts from folks with actual experiences.

Have one - like it very much. Everyone trashes the fence. It looks flimsy but in practice has been flawless. Dust collection in jointer mode was less than satisfactory until I followed Curt Harms tip can place a piece of 1/4" dowel in a certain location. Now it's 100%.

Do a search - there have been other opinions posted.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Has anyone actually bought and used the Jet JJP-12? I'm interested in this machine, especially with the deals currently floating around. I would love to see posts from folks with actual experiences.

I was at a Woodworking Show last weekend and a local retailer was offering the Jet JJP-12 for $1,799. The national advertised price is currently $1,999.

I also spoke to a Jet representative at the Show. I mentioned that removable add-on bed extensions may be a nice option since there are some folks that feel 55" long jointer beds are too short. He seemed to like that idea. I recommended that he search our forum as there is a wealth of good information and ideas regarding jointer/planer combos.

As for the fence on the Jet JJP-12, I thought it was more rigid than the Hammer A3-31 end mounted fence. However, I have no actual hands-on experience with either machine; only show room browsing and speculation. I do like the fact that the Jet JJP-12 fence is more compact and doesn't have to be removed from the machine during conversion.

-Jeff :)

[David DeCristoforo]

As I lay uneasily in bed trying to sleep on this very dark and stormy night, I heard a strange creaking sound, a footstep on a slightly loose floorboard perhaps or the slight "screek" of a door hinge. Lightning struck at that moment and I thought it must have been my imagination. But then, there it was again... unmistakable this time... someone..... or something was slowly creeping down the hallway toward my bedroom door.

Suddenly, rain began to fall, a heavy, pounding rain that beat like a drum corps on the roof, obscuring all other sound. I wished to all gods that I had closed and bolted the bedroom door before climbing under the covers which suddenly seemed inadequate against the chill I felt in my spine. Gripped by fear, I cowered in the dark as whatever was coming toward me moved closer. Again the lightning... this time accompanied by a cacophonous crash of thunder and for a brief second I caught the glint of finely machined cast iron.

Almost paralyzed, my mind raced around the room trying to think of something I might use to defend myself. My beautiful hand turned hardwood bedside lamp would certainly be of no use against hard metal and, for the first time I cursed the lust for woodworking and the feel of finely polished timber that had tempted me to replace the heavy brass lamp base with this useless piece of wood. It was coming closer now and again the lightning struck, this time almost on top of me. illuminating the room and in that terrifying second I saw it. My combination planer/jointer, its iron tables hard and cold, guard gone and the multi faceted cutting edges of the helical insert cutter head bared and gleaming like the teeth of some terminator machine monster. How could I have been so stupid! I had forgotten to lock the shop door again!

After my Japanese chisels had attacked my wife and child two years ago, I had vowed never again to forget to lock these dangerous and unpredictable woodworking tools in at night. Now, here I was, stupidly at the mercy of my own planer/jointer. What's worse, I hadn't fed it in weeks and now here it was, teeth bared, drooling sawdust by my bedside and me without a single thing within reach to defend myself with that was not made of wood. Trembling, I backed against the fine walnut headboard that only a fortnight ago had been a pile of lumber being fed to the very same machine that was now so threateningly approaching .

Over the bed hung a painting done by my mother in law. It stunk... she was a lousy artist but it had provided me with an excuse to indulge my cursed, insatiable passion for woodworking by making a wenge frame for it. This was my only defense and I grabbed it from the wall and shoved a corner of the frame into the cutterhead of the viscous machine as it came forward. It chewed up that wenge like it was balsa wood, taking the hideous painting with it. My last thought before I felt the cold steel chewing flesh and bone, making me scream in agony and finally taking my life was that I would never have to look at that painting again.

[Rob Cooper]

David's "last" post is why I dont own a mobile base. :eek:

PS - good tool sale in Davis, Ca

[Carlos Alden]

As I lay uneasily in bed trying to sleep on this very dark and stormy night, I heard a strange creaking sound, a footstep on a slightly loose floorboard perhaps or the slight "screek" of a door hinge.

Someone's been sniffing too much WD-40 again.

I thought I had trouble with my utility knife being dangerous, but nothing like this. I think that UPS could have been worked in here somewhere.

Carlos

[Rod Sheridan]

The fence on the Hammer doesn't need to be removed for conversion to planer mode........Rod.

[Andrew Joiner]

This kind of thing is cast iron terrorism. How could this happen?

Now we know why no combination planer/jointers are made in the USA.

[dan lemkin]

OP does not post a location... but if you are canadian... I would jump on this deal.

http://www.minimaxcanada.com/

They are selling FS30's for $3696 which is $2870 USD , which is a steal.
They are selling for $4295 (on sale) in the US currently.

And unfortunately, you can not buy in CA and ship to US... already checked.

[Ben West]

There are many happy customers for the G0634. Just do a search here and elsewhere, and you'll find many more positive responses than negative.

In my experience, the G0634 is a solid performer with a very high level of fit and finish. It may or may not equal a MiniMax -- although I looked at them also and, to be honest, found the Grizzly to be comprable -- but it does all I'll ever need it to.

There's nothing magic about combination machines that only Europeans have the answer to. If you search around, you'll find that the vast majority of Grizzly and Jet owners are more than satisfied.

[Jim Becker]

My MiniMax J/P is part of the "heart" of my shop...I'd not give it up. No horror stories and I really can't imagine why there might be any, outside of a vendor seriously cutting corners on design and quality. So far, and as discussed in threads already here at SMC and elsewhere, the value priced products are doing a pretty good job. They might not have some of the refinement that the MiniMax, Felder/Hammer, etc., machines do, but Jet and Grizzly seem to have gotten the essentials right. Combo J/P machines are great for providing wide jointer capacity economically and in a small space along with a planer of equal capacity. I'd have to have a MUCH larger shop to pine for separates at this point...

[Rye Crane]

David,

You should send that in to "Popular Woodworking" for the back inside cover. Priceless. Thank you for your imagination. I'm still laughing
all the way to the shop door to make sure it's locked.

Rye Crane
Pittsburg, CA.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Well in the machine tool world you really do get what you pay for.

If one is buying a budget brand machine, I rather think that combo machinery is strongly contraindicated.
It's enough to get a lower cost machine that does one thing very well but, to get it to perform two or more functions well or even adequately is, I should think, an improbable proposition.
This because the lower cost machines are (in my experience) made from the ground up with various sacrifices and cut corners in design, engineering, manufacturing, tolerances, and materials so as to save money in manufacturing which savings are passed on to the consumer as a more affordable machine.

It is unlikely that such a design and manufacturing ethos will translate well into a combo because the complexity and nature of a Combo machine requires more precision, greater effort in the design and engineering, as well as tighter tolerances, and better heavier materials.

Take my Hammer J/P for example. I have no complaints about it but, if you compare it to it's bigger brothers in the commercial class Felder line, you'll see many differences where materials and engineering were sacrificed to put a good J/P together for less than the $7 to $10 Gees you might hare to pay to get a Felder.
The sheet metal frame is a tad lighter than the Felder. According to some folks it is too thin to rely on for mounting a power feeder. I'd just mount it attached to a corner to get around that but the fact remains that it's a lighter machine than the heavy industrial grade Felders.

The sliding table on my Hammer sliding table saw is substantially lighter than the tables on the industrial Felder machines. The bearings are lighter too. My Hammer saw is not made to take a team of brutes slamming 100 pound sheet stock on it all day every day playing beat the clock. The Felder is.

You get what you pay for. Whether it is chisels or hand planes or machinery if you want top notch quality you need to pay some one top notch money to make top notch equipment.
I'm just sayin.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I don't measure quality by how much I paid for it anymore since nothing seems to be built in the USA on a level playing field. To say a European machine is 2 1/2 times better than an Asian machine, based on retail price, ignores "savings" gained by indirect factors such as low wages, lack of environmental laws, government subsidy, currency exchange rates, etc.

On the positive side, we are in the information age. Forums like SMC is an excellent way to guage quality in a machine or tool. Forums not only provide hands-on insight to a new tool, but also longer term performance expectations.

So far, Asian combos seem to be doing pretty well as per my reading. And, these machines have been in service by fellow posters for up to 2 years now.

-Jeff :)

[Douglas Robinson]

I own the Jet 12 inch combo machine. I am completely satisfied! I had a Makita lunchbox for years and a powermatic 6" joiner. The Jet equals or exceeds the capicties of those units. It is durable, well-built and I can convert from planing to joining in 30 seconds or less (and vice-versa). The dust collection works well. I really like the European blade guard more than the pork chop style. I got a great deal through Klingspor last year. I have a small shop so this unit filled my needs especially well. You do need to have good joining technique due to the fact that the unit is only 55" long. For me that has not been a problem. The corrigate upper surface was the hardest feature to get used to. I would recommend this unit whole-heartedly.

Doug

[Bob Luciano]

Off topic a bit but the savings on the lack of environmental laws isn't a completely true statement. They are finding 30% of the air pollution on the west coast originates in Asia. So the cost is there just not on the receipt.

[Mark Roderick]

As to your first question, I think the reason they're less expensive is that the bed is MUCH shorter than on a stand-alone jointer. That's how it looks to me, anyway. On a jointer, the length of the bed is pretty darned important, and making a long bed that is perfectly flat must add a lot to the cost of manufacturing.

[John Schreiber]

As I lay uneasily in bed trying to sleep on this very dark and stormy night, I heard a strange creaking sound,
David, You are not a man to be underestimated.


Back to the subject. One of the factors leading me toward a combination machine is that I can get one carbide spiral cutter head which will serve both for planing and for jointing. If I go with separate machines, I'd have to pay for two cutter heads.

[dan lemkin]

Add this thread to your considerations when getting one of these machines...

So far felder is the only company that apparently really crates their machines well.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=106576

[Chris Padilla]

Easy, Dan, with your paintbrush! :) Lottsa folks have received their machines with no issues. Part may be blamed on the vendor but a lot resides with the shipping company. I know zero about how these outfits work but there appear to be some bad apples near you. Maybe they all use the same guy to unload the planes or trucks?? I dunno....

[Bryan Hosford]

I own a jjp-12 and love it, Great size for my one car garage shop. The only issue I had when I got it was getting it coplaner - took some time to get it right. The length of the table can be interesting when working with longer boards, but I solved that by building a couple of tables that I can Jack up and down with a bottle jack built in the cabinets for infeed and outfeed. I would recommend this combo, especially for the space challenged.

[Jim Becker]

On a jointer, the length of the bed is pretty darned important

I used to think that until I got my combo and realized that very, very rarely do I "need" to joint something accurately that is more than about 5-6 feet. 95% of my use of the jointer is for much smaller components outside of "skimming" lumber so I can make judgment calls on grain and color. Jointing components flat is best left to after they are reduced to rough length and width.