Glue Types

[Brad Wood]

Hey,

to date I have been using basic yellow glue for my projects, which has worked out just fine for the most part.

One issue I have been running into recently is "open time". I am starting to get into more complex glue ups and I need more working time than what my current cheap Elmers wood glue is allowing.

I'm about to embark on my largest project yet (my wood is still in log form, so I am about two months out on getting started), and I need to figure out what glue I want to use.

The project is a large dining table... basic cutting board style laminated top. I don't think I need it to be water proof because I will be putting a finish on it that should seal it up well.

I was thinking Titebond III because it is advertised as having about ten minute open time.
But now I am wondering if there is something better, or cheaper, or ??, that I should consider.
what are the benefits of poly glue (i.e. gorilla glue)? I see it appears to have a little more open time that the titebond III.

I guess I don't really understand the significance of poly vs yellow glue and I don't have a full understanding of all my options when it comes to open times.

I appreciate your feedback on this rudimentary subject.
Thanks

- Brad

[Chris Padilla]

I hear you about open-times. Often, doing a dry run of your project so that you have EVERYTHING all set up can minimize the stress of glue-ups and challenging open-times of your glue. That should be number one on your list: a dry run. Experience will gain you much but that is true for just about everything. Gluing things up in sections can also help...if your project allows it.

TB-III does have more open time than II or I but I dunno...it doesn't seem like it to me some times. :)

The poly glues do have a bit more open time but they can be messier glues to work with so you should practice with them or that open time can disappear due to how much messier they can be.

For even more open time, go with a plastic resin glue (DAP/Weldwood brand that David Marks is often seen using on Woodworks) but that one can be messy, too, and be prepared. You may notice that David Marks uses miles of blue painters tape when dealing with the PRG. This stuff dries extremely hard...much harder than the PVAs (polyvinylacetate--our favorite yellow and white glues).

For the longest open time: epoxy. As you know, epoxy comes in all sorts of open times but doesn't 30 minutes or 60 minutes just sound wonderful some times? :D


As far as strength goes, while they all are a little bit different, they should all be plenty strong enough for your project. Afterall, they are all stronger than the wood. About the only other thing needing consideration is how waterproof you need the glue to be.

Here is an interesting article on the repairability (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822) of different glues.

[Lee Schierer]

Many times you can dry assemble part of a large glue up and only actually glue it in sections. I did a day bed that had a large back with slats that was far too complicated to get every thing together while the glue was still wet. I put the bottop half of the frame together dry, clamped it up so it was square, then put in all the slats dry. I assembled the top with glue on teh uprights and the slats. Clamped everything up and let the glue dry. The next day when I removed the clamps on the dry sections and took those pieces out, I was already "fixtured" by the parts glued the previous day.

[John Michaels]

I have used Titebond III quite a bit, but switched to Titebond II. TB III tends to creep. I've used it to glue up table tops, cutting boards, etc and you can feel the ridges where the glue has crept over time.

What if you glued your table top together in sections using Titebond II. They even have an extended time version I've seen at Grizzly.

I made a cutting board recently that had 18 pieces of wood. I was was worried about the open time so I did 9 pieces one day and the other 9 the next day. Maybe this approach would work for your table top.

[Chris Padilla]

I have used Titebond III quite a bit, but switched to Titebond II. TB III tends to creep. I've used it to glue up table tops, cutting boards, etc and you can feel the ridges where the glue has crept over time.

Interesting, John. I haven't noticed this with the III. In fact, the III dries much harder than II which to me means that it shouldn't move much or rather, should move less.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I use titebond I for most of my hobby project glue-ups and I also use Elmer's Pro bond.

Is Pro Bond the yellow glue that's setting too fast? I didn't think it was too bad. I sort of like glues that set fast once clamped.

If it was a really complex glue-up then I'd use a slow setting resin type of glue though I don't have anything too complex.

I recently got some gorilla glue because I was told to use it for the glue up of a table top. Since table tops can have spills and water/etc, I know the poly glue is more water proof than my titebond I. In addition, the poly glue is more flexible.

[Brad Wood]

I sort of like glues that set fast once clamped.

yeah, in a perfect world it would stay open as long as we need it for assembly, and then set real quick so we could move on to the next steps.

Anyway - I appreciate all the replies so far. I think I just have glue issues that I have not really worked out being that I am really a newcomer to wood still.... I know Chris at least responded to another glue question I had regarding cleanup.

It sounds to me that my best approach is to attempt to reduce the glue ups into stages or sections as best I can... and on a table I can think of multiple places that could be individual steps rather than one big one (or a couple big ones).

I think I'll stick with the PVA type glues whenever possible... since I need to hone my glue cleanliness skills as it is, the last thing I need to do is get something even more inherently messy

[John Michaels]

Interesting, John. I haven't noticed this with the III. In fact, the III dries much harder than II which to me means that it shouldn't move much or rather, should move less.

Maybe it's the kind of wood I've used or temp/humidity differences. There were some posts here about TB III and creeping so I thought I'd switch to TB II and it seems to have worked so far.

[Gary Benson]

Brad,
Don't overlook white PVA glue as well. I find it much easier to use than yellow, has a longer practical open time, it cleans up easier, and dries clear. I have read in several places that it can be diluted 5-10% with water without decreasing strength, but will significantly increase open time. Plus, it is the cheapest of all.
Good luck,
Gary

[Chris Padilla]

I think I'll stick with the PVA type glues whenever possible... since I need to hone my glue cleanliness skills as it is, the last thing I need to do is get something even more inherently messy

Get this glue roller (http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=86_37&products_id=1096) and you'll be a few steps ahead. They are available in 4" and 6" size...get both. This will help you learn how to use less glue so it isn't so messy and to spread it better. Just remember to CLEAN the roller very soon after you're done or it'll be in the garbage can the next day (DAMHIKT!! :o)

[Brent Leonard]

Tightbond II, extended time....

http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1
15 minutes open time.

TB3 is 10 minutes open.

[Dell Moore]

I've been looking for a decent 2 part paste expoxy (not a liquid tube type). Can anyone suggest one?

[Chris Padilla]

Tightbond II, extended time....

http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1
15 minutes open time.

TB3 is 10 minutes open.

You have to go to the "Cabinet Shop Glues" to find the info for the II-Extended. Linking is weird on Franklin's site.

So regular II is 5 mins...Extended adds 10 to that for 15...right you are! III is indeed 10 minutes.

Might we get a III-Extends for 20 minutes of open time for a PVA?! Anyone? Anyone? :D

[Brad Wood]

yeah, well, I'm not thrilled with brown dry color

I'll have to look for the Titebond II extended. I didn't notice that listed on the Rockler site the last time I looked

[Howard Acheson]

>> The project is a large dining table... basic cutting board style laminated top.

A laminated panel glue up does not need to be stressful. By its very nature, you will want to only glue up a section at a time. Glue up sub-assemblies and then glue them to each other.

Some things to make it go easier.

o Do a dry fit so you are sure you have the clamps pre-positioned and you know what to do when.

o Apply your adhesive with a roller. I generally use one of those cheap, 2-3" wide touchup rollers that come as a kit with roller, handle and tray.

I would avoid Gorilla Glue or any other poly glue. There is a heated discussion going on in the Woodnet Forum.

[David Winer]

I second the motion to avoid Gorilla glue for furniture. I had observed all the promotional materials about how great the glue is, especially it's strength. I decided to use caution and try it out first on an outdoor project--a fence gate. This was good place to use it and good experience. Yes, it does a great job. No, I would not recommend it for furniture.

First, it seems to leave a visible glue joint. Second, although it has wonderful gap filling properties, great for less accurate outdoor projects, I found it a mess to work with because it expands all over the place as it sets. Kinda tough to remove from the work itself and very tough to remove from skin!

[Brad Wood]

I appreciate all the advice. I think for now I'll just stick with the stuff I have been working with for a while and just work on my technique :)

p.s. lots of suggestions on the roller... I've been using a roller for a while now. Definitely helps for even and quick application.

[Todd Pretty]

I've been using Gorilla glue on some stand up paddles that I've made. Since these were test paddles, and I wanted to modify the shape of the blade, I haven't used Epoxy or any fiberglass on them. Woods were tight grain fir and tight grain western red cedar. I've had a bunch of days on the water, and to-date there has been no delamination, and the paddles gets soaked, then dry out 3-4 times a week, for the last couple of months. So far I am amazed how well they've held together. But, I couldn't imagine using this stuff on furniture, unless I planned on putting in some extra time sanding and planing the final finish after the glue-up. The other thing I found was that sometimes there were bubbles in the joint where I sanded through at an angle close to parallel to the joint... not attractive.




I have used Titebond III quite a bit, but switched to Titebond II. TB III tends to creep. I've used it to glue up table tops, cutting boards, etc and you can feel the ridges where the glue has crept over time.


Could you please define "creep" is this something happening after the glue has set, or during the glue-up? I often use TBIII on finishing wood work, and love it. But once the house is done, I dont see the work again, so if this is something that happens after the fact, I would be very concerned about it.

Thanks.

[david kramer]

Tightbond II, extended time....

http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1
15 minutes open time.

TB3 is 10 minutes open.

I've been using TBII extended for quite a while now. I've had no problems with it, but it sure doesn't feel like 15 mins of open time. Then again, to me TBI felt like 15 seconds of open time, so it's all relative.

[John Michaels]

Could you please define "creep" is this something happening after the glue has set, or during the glue-up? I often use TBIII on finishing wood work, and love it. But once the house is done, I dont see the work again, so if this is something that happens after the fact, I would be very concerned about it.

Thanks.

I not sure if I'm defining creep in a textbook manner, but to me it's when the joint between two pieces of wood develops a slight ridge caused by the glue than can not be seen but felt when you run your hand across the surface. It's noticeable on things like cutting boards and table tops. Not so obvious on a joint like where a table leg meets an apron because you can't run a flat hand across it.

Hope that helps.

[Don Eddard]

Interesting, John. I haven't noticed this with the III. In fact, the III dries much harder than II which to me means that it shouldn't move much or rather, should move less.
I've also had creep issues with TBIII on cutting boards. Especially end grain boards. I've seen the same thing but to a lesser extent with TBII. I like the plastic resin (DAP/Weldwood) glue for its open time and its uncreepy properties.

[Danny Burns]

Tightbond II, extended time....

http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1
15 minutes open time.

TB3 is 10 minutes open.

Lee Valley Cabinetmaker's Glue 2002 GF

"With an open time of 15 to 20 minutes and a clamping time of 30 to 90 minutes (depending upon application), it can be worked after 4 hours. After 24 hours it reaches its full strength, which is in excess of the strength of the strongest wood in shear, sugar maple."

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45104&cat=1,110,42965

[David Keller NC]

"It sounds to me that my best approach is to attempt to reduce the glue ups into stages or sections as best I can... and on a table I can think of multiple places that could be individual steps rather than one big one (or a couple big ones)."

This is what any of us that have been doing this a while would recommend. However, you might want to try liquid hide glue. It has a pretty long open time, isn't messy, is reversible if you make a mistake, and it's really, really easy to clean the excess off of a glue joint.

It's very strong, and so long as the project isn't going into an outdoor environment, will last for centuries.

[george wilson]

Fine Woodworking did a test on glue a while back. Liquid hide glue came out as stronger that hot hide glue.

I'd like to mention that whem I use liquid hide glue,I put it into a pot of real hot water for a while-the whole bottle. This causes it to get much thinner,so it goes into the pores better for a better grip,and probably makes a tighter joint since it is thinner if you clamp it up soon.

[Chris Padilla]

I not sure if I'm defining creep in a textbook manner, but to me it's when the joint between two pieces of wood develops a slight ridge caused by the glue than can not be seen but felt when you run your hand across the surface. It's noticeable on things like cutting boards and table tops. Not so obvious on a joint like where a table leg meets an apron because you can't run a flat hand across it.

Hope that helps.

I dunno if there is a textbook definition of "glue creep" but take a look at any dried droppings of glue (try your floor! :) ) or just do a quick experiement on some wax paper. In fact, maybe I'll try this and report back.

The PVAs (yellow/white glues): They all have some give to them...some flexibility to them. If you take a "dot" of glue and try to shatter it with a hammer or something, it won't.

Now try some epoxy...it dries like a rock. Plastic resin glue also dries like a rock. I have some veneer glue...same thing: dries like a rock. It shatters if you try to break it.

This flexibility of the PVAs can allow the wood to move...actually shift slightly for any number of reasons. It doesn't lock it in tight. This property can be good or bad depending on the situation.

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I'm curious about something and it may be in regards to glue creep...maybe not. When you glue something, especially with a PVA, you are adding moisture to the wood--locally anyway at the joint. This swells the wood fibers. Let's consider a typical long-grain to long-grain glue-up for a table top.

I hear all the time about folks taking their projects out of the clamps "1-2 hours later" and sanding or planing or doing something to them the involves removing wood. I wonder when the wood in the project finally returns to its uniform moisture content that the locations that were glued are now a bit more shallow than areas that didn't have direct glue contact. Could "glue creep" be blamed for this scenario? Could one board have reacted slightly differently to the brief excess moisture?

Due to how I work (i.e. like molasses moving uphill in the winter), my glue-ups often sit for several days before I get to them for clean up so I have never noticed "glue creep". Maybe I'm just lucky that way...dunno.

[Chris Padilla]

"It sounds to me that my best approach is to attempt to reduce the glue ups into stages or sections as best I can... and on a table I can think of multiple places that could be individual steps rather than one big one (or a couple big ones)."

This is what any of us that have been doing this a while would recommend. However, you might want to try liquid hide glue. It has a pretty long open time, isn't messy, is reversible if you make a mistake, and it's really, really easy to clean the excess off of a glue joint.

It's very strong, and so long as the project isn't going into an outdoor environment, will last for centuries.

TB's LHG doesn't really show any specially long open time: 10 minutes is what they claim. TB-II-Extended still beats that by 5 minutes.

I dunno...I may try out the LHG anyway just to see how it goes.

[Chris Padilla]

I sent a question to Titebond: What is glue creep? Their answer:
Creep is the deformation of a body with time under constant load. It is also called cold flow. For glues, this means that the glue will move (and the wood with it) under a constant load. This is why we don't recommend our products for trusses.

I then asked them if they have tests that measure the glue creep and I further wondered if some of their products move more or less compared to others. Their answer:
We will ask the lab about the tests. The TB LHG and the TB Poly have no creep, but are still not recommended in a truss, but for other reasons. The other wood glues have creey in varying degrees.