Miter Saws - Slider or no?

[Edward Warren]

I am about to get a new compound miter saw and have been thinking about the Bosch 4410 which is a 10" slider. Dust collection is a moderate concern and looks like it would be a challenge on any sliding miter saw (I am using my garage as the shop).

So my question is - Is it worth getting a slider, or should I get a 12" non slider or just a standard 10"?

Space is a big concern, but I think I can accommodate any one of these, albeit a non-slider would be simpler.

I am a general woodworking hobbyist just starting out doing my own "real" projects. Due to my business dealings, I can get a great deal on the Bosch saws. I absolutely HATE buying tools a second time, so I’d like this purchase to last until the thing falls apart.

Thanks in advance for you input…

[Ken Deckelman]

What do you plan to cut with it?

[Robert Parrish]

I have the Bosch 4410 and like it very much. I replaced an old 10" Delta. I would stay with the 10" for blade compatibility with your table saw. Also the sliding feature allows you a to cut much wider material.

[Edward Warren]

What do you plan to cut with it?

Wood...

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I am not building houses, but would like to build furniture...I really don't know where this will take me, or where my interests will lead.

Robert - do you find yourself using the slide a lot, and what kind of stuff are you building mostly?

[Mark Bolton]

Edward,
We ran a 4410 in our home building business since the were first released until about 3 years ago when the 12" came out (5412L? cant remember). The 4410 is a great saw, plenty of power, and never had a single regret with it. It was always my goto saw no matter what. The 12" model is very nice and added features that were needed on the 10". That said, I really dont like belt drive but for us the extra capacity of the 12" was a real bonus.

This topic comes up a lot on various forums and with some searching you will likely find days of reading. My input on it is always that its an issue of flexure and do you actually need the capacity of a slider or do you just "think" you need it.

The extra capacity comes at the cost of flexure. All sliders, and I mean all (even the festool kapex) have flexure when they are extended. This flexure can work to your advantage once you are accustomed to it for cheating cuts. However it can haunt you on precise cuts if you are not very attentive to it and adept at dealing with it. We use our saw for everything from high end finish, crown, casework, all the way down to vinyl siding. The 12" crosscut capacity is great for exterior trim and vinyl. The 10" was equally handy but left you rocking the workpiece to get out of some cuts.

That said, if you are looking for precision without having to think about it, and rarely will cut at the full crosscut capacity of a slider, a non slider would be best in my opinion. They are much more rigid and have much less flexure.

Its one of those decisions where you have to really balance your needs, might needs, and wants.

Mark

[keith ouellette]

I have a twelve in dewalt double bevel compound slider. I do some handy man work for other people as well as my own home improvement projects. The extra capacity comes in real handy.

I'm not sure if this is true but the non slider may make a slightly better cut seeing it does not slide on a rail. The lack of a rail may make the head mor stable and accurate. If that is true then for doing things like mitering picture frames the non slider would be better.

I hope some others chime in on that idea.

[Matt Benton]

Given that space and dust are big concerns, how about a handsaw and shooting board? Not the best way to go if time is an issue, of course....

[Edward Warren]

Thanks so far everyone.

If I did a 12", it would be fixed head not a slider. The Bosch 4212L fixed 12" can cut almost 8" where the 4410L 10" slider can go to 12".

I can see myself doing finish crown and casework, but probably not vinyl.

Is there much Flex when not extending on the slides?

[Mark Bolton]

It is much less, virtually none, when the saw is not extended at all. From what you describe the most common time you would use the slider would be crosscutting things like shelving or cutting wide solid material to length. Its just an issue of deciding if this will be common enough to justify the price and flexure issue of the slider.

I dont want to "poo poo" sliders due to flex, like I say, our #1 saw is a 12" slider. Its just that it is a factor.

I will say that once you get accustomed to running a slider any non-slider will seem inferior from that point on unless you simply get a slider you cant work with.

Mark

[Joel Goodman]

On my slider (an older 10" Milwaukee) you can lock the sliding feature and I am sure you can on all of them --so it's a slider when it needs to be. The only downside of the slider is the bigger footprint and the cost but it's sure handy when you need the capacity.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I have the Hitach C10FSH on a rigid MSUV.

Though if you can get a good deal on Bosch, then I always go where the deals are.

What I like about sliding saws is they function like a radial arm saw... I plunge down and make the cut while sliding by pushing the blade through the stock. (As opposed to a chopping motion)

I have a wixey angle gauge to help keep the saw true and it rarely needs adjustments. (Doesn't have much play either)

If you ask me, I'd take the 10" slider vs a 12" chop. You'll probably get better cuts. I know that when this economy picks up, I'm going to have to take a good look at the Kapex. :)

[Josh Reid]

Makita LS1013FL. Enough said. I personally have one and don't think there is a better saw. Plus the HD has them on sale for $399 around me. If they aren't on sale around you then they are $499. I looked at every miter saw on the market sliding and non and I always came back to the Makita.

[Bob Slater]

I second the Makita ten inch. Mine has been a great machine. Seems very accurate.

[Russ Boyd]

I have an 8" hitachi slider (good but small), a 10" delta non-slider ( just a chop saw), a 12" dewalt dual bevel, sliding (in the shop for the capacity) and a makita 10" dual bevel sliding, laser, etc.. and it is by far the best I have had. I use it daily like I did the others. I love the Makita. In actual answer to your question....the slider will give the most capacity, but like others said, I'd keep it to a 10" for compatibility to the table saw blade as well as the deflection issue with larger blades. Russ

[Tom Godley]

I have a small 8.5 Hitachi slider that I purchased years ago mostly to do trim work and other occasional handyman items -- with more than one home I needed something that could be placed in a car and moved around but still do a good accurate job with trim and have some additional versatility.

Last year I decided to get a dedicated saw for the shop -- got a great deal on a 12" slider when I was actually looking for a 10". I can not tell you how many times I have used the extra capacity --- glad I went with the 12 slider.

Now ----if I was going to move the saw often or if I only needed to cut 2x4s or 6s all day a simple chop saw may be a better choice. But if you have the room a slider is very handy and the 10" and 12" get you a lot of versatility.

I will add that some have mentioned the inaccuracies of the larger sliding saws for trim work -- especially the DeWalt that I have. I did experience a learning curve with the large blade -- but have found it to be quite capable of accurate work.

[Rob Russell]

I have the Dewalt 12" slider and love it. If your perspective is "buy once, cry once" - but the largest blade slider you can. I have used both the depth of cut that the 12" blade offers and the sliding capacity for wider width cuts.

[Mark Bolton]

To add to all the other posts, I would have to say that its no surprise that when you have the capacity, you use it. That goes without saying. But when your factoring why a tool is or isnt the correct tool for your application it matters not whether you will use the capacity you have access to. What matters is how many times you will be absolutely screwed without that capacity. How many times will you be stopped dead in your tracks, or drastically compromised, without that capacity.

If you dont look at it this way, you may as well just buy the biggest of every tool you ever contemplate buying because you will always use its full capacity at some point even if its only once. There is no need to ask questions, look at reviews, contemplate, just buy the biggest so your covered.

I wonder why were in a recession?

A more realistic approach is to evaluate the actual need you have and buy accordingly. If your need fits that of a 12"CMS rather than a slider, go that route, and take the extra 150 bucks and buy a router or some other tool you will use.

Mark

[Steve Hajewski]

I have a 10" Delta chop saw and have lost track of how many times I have cursed not spending more on a bigger or sliding saw. One of the big issues is that when you cut on an angle you need more capacity. I often end up cutting, then flipping over and cutting again, then sanding the cut smooth since you can never line it up perfect.

Don't forget to budget for a new saw blade if needed.... it seems like most saws come with a general purpose blade that isn't great for detail work.

Steve

[Jesse Kerr]

I have the Bosch 4410 and love it its accurate and plenty strong to hog through anything I put it through. But you say space is a concern so just be aware that when in use you will need a full 26 inch clearance behind the fence to allow for the travel of the slide.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I've got a Makita 1013, and I would not trade it for any other. Best saw on the market, I think.

As for flex, I guess I haven't looked at the other saws recently, but on my Mak, when the saw is pushed back to the fence, the slides are extended to full length. You would assume that the most flex would be observed at the position for the saw to take the widest cut, but this design implies the opposite. It is a moot point though, as flex is just plain a non-issue with this saw.

Dust collection is easily upgraded to flawless, but these saws take up a piece of real estate. I would recommend a good one, Hitachi or Makita are my favs, and you will not be sorry.

[Mark Bolton]

I would have to agree with Steve that the "rails on bottom" design of the 1013 is probably the stiffest on the market. It reduces the flexure to a single system being the beefy casting holding the saw head. It allows for alot more mass to be put into the saw head casting.

Most all other systems have a casting which incorporates the bevel assembly and holds the rails then a separate casting holding the saw head. Two instead of one allows for a bit more flexure.

Mark

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
I went a 10" DeWalt non-slider for my main shop saw.
No laser, no frills, just good solid lockup & the settings that stay put.
My main reason for going non slider was the cost of blades. The non slider and the TS can use the same blades. A slider needs a negative hook blade.

I have other ways to deal with wide/thick materials though so YMMV.

[Don Bullock]

I have the Hitach C10FSH on a rigid MSUV.

Though if you can get a good deal on Bosch, then I always go where the deals are.

What I like about sliding saws is they function like a radial arm saw... I plunge down and make the cut while sliding by pushing the blade through the stock. (As opposed to a chopping motion)...


I have the same saw. There was a "special deal" on them at Amazon a while back. Like Curtis, I look for the deals. I've used it for several projects where I needed an accurate miter cut and it has performed that task very well. Personally I like the extra capacity of a slider and find it very useful on the projects I've been doing.

[Edward Warren]

Hello,

My main reason for going non slider was the cost of blades. The non slider and the TS can use the same blades. A slider needs a negative hook blade.

I have other ways to deal with wide/thick materials though so YMMV.

Can anyone expand on this difference in the blades? I was thinking the TS blades would work if they were the same size, but maybe not.

[Don Morris]

I've got the Hitachi 10" slider with a WW Chopmaster blade. Good macine and I get pretty darn accurate and smooth cuts, but when I do crown molding I swear at it because it's not a 12". I've been watching the local CL for someone selling a reasonably new good 12". I can live with the 10" in my small space, but somehow I'll find room for that 12" if one comes along.

[Chris Padilla]

Can anyone expand on this difference in the blades? I was thinking the TS blades would work if they were the same size, but maybe not.

They can work just fine. For a sliding CMS or even a RAS, negative hook blades are often recommended for safety issues such that the spin of the blade as it meets the wood doesn't cause the blade to jerk and come hurtling towards you. It also is supposed to help keep the wood at the fence and not lift it and possibly cause issues that way.

However, you'll find many folks use positive hook blades on these saws with no problems. YMMV.

***************************

I have a 12" DeWalt, CMS (non-slider). It pretty much has taken care of all my needs but I do look at sliders from time-to-time because I can't deny that it would be NICE to have one but I'm not sure I've really missed not having the slider. I'm sure I'd use it if I had it but I guess I've found other ways to deal with crosscutting stuff wider than my CMS can handle. The sliders are a lot more coin versus non and do take up more real estate.

[John Adam]

Has anyone looked at the Jet Sliding Mitre - I'm a fan of the brand and was hoping that having a saw from a WW tool manufacturer would address accuracy/consistency issues.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have owned several sliders. I will always own one due to the versatility and capacity they provide. While I build decks daily, I also dabble in furniture and cabinetry and all my endeavors are made easier with the slider.

While the most accurate saw I have ever owned was a Makita, they do not work well with treated lumber so I will not have another one. Other than that it was the best saw I ever owned.

The absolute worst saw for accuracy I ever owned was the DW NON slider 12". Always hear about how inaccurate the sliders are, but have never experienced it personally. I suppose that maybe for those who measure with micrometers or calipers...maybe even those who have incra rules and check both ends of a crosscut, the slider might have a slight issue with complete accuracy. But for the normal woodworker, most are every bit as accurate as most 10" or 12" miter saws.

All this said, once you try one, it will be hard to go back to a non slider. I know I never will.

[Ben Martin]

I've got a Makita 1013, and I would not trade it for any other. Best saw on the market, I think.

As for flex, I guess I haven't looked at the other saws recently, but on my Mak, when the saw is pushed back to the fence, the slides are extended to full length. You would assume that the most flex would be observed at the position for the saw to take the widest cut, but this design implies the opposite. It is a moot point though, as flex is just plain a non-issue with this saw.

Steve beat me to it. Another vote for the Makita 1013. It is also assembled in the USA, if that means anything to you (sure did to me...).

[Dave Falkenstein]

I have owned the Hitachi 8-1/2" SCMS, the Dewalt 12" CMS and the same Bosch SCMS you are considering. IMHO, for a home shop, having the versatility of a SCMS is a benefit. The Hitachi SCMS was relatively easy to transport, and the Dewalt CMS is even easier to transport, if that is a consideration. The Bosch is a great saw.

One post mentioned compatibility of blades between a SCMS and a table saw. This is not an issue, since a SCMS uses a different blade design than a table saw.

I doubt you will be disappointed with the Bosch, especially if you get a good deal on it.

[Phillip Bogle]

I have a 4410L and I have yet to max the capacity. Everything in the Bosch is spot on for accuracy. I have never had a flex problem. I might have been lucky, since I only bought one I might have the only perfect one in the lot.

I was very confused about the size and all of the different saws, and the 12" vs 10" I went with the 10". The biggest difference I could see was in bevel and miter cuts. The larger blade could cut through thicker lumber at more acute angles. Your needs will depend upon your style of work and type of cuts.

Just my 2 cents.

[Gregg Feldstone]

I have the DeWalt 12" double bevel non-slider and wish a got the slider because of the extra capacity. I plan to upgrade soon because I have found that one can purchase a refurbished slider for the same price as a non-slider, and it has a new tool warranty. They are widely available online and at stores in larger cities.

[Allan Froehlich]

I have the Rigid 12" Slider.

I was a bit out of alignment when I got it (0.25 degrees), but I quickly fixed that.

It works very well and I am now finding the non-sliders to be machines of wonder. My only complaint: its really loud!

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

However, you'll find many folks use positive hook blades on these saws with no problems. YMMV.
Once,, is all it takes to make you a believer in the advice to use a negative hook on a slider.

Been there - done that - and I was extremely lucky only my pride was hurt.

[Edward Warren]

Thanks everyone. I'll go with the slider at this point...seems pretty clear now everyone with one wouldn't go back.