3M Veneer Adhesive spray

[Craig D Peltier]

I think it comes in 94 strength and not just 90 in a can.
3M Hi Strength Spray Adhesive. I know just under the title it says Veneer Adhesive.
I see 94 comes in a cylinder for mass veneering.I think 94 is considered industrial use.
Anyone here use 90?
Or am I confused is it lower than 90 in a crafts type store?

[george wilson]

I haven't used your product,but I have seen disastrous results from using contact cement to hold veneer on. A very bad craftsman I knew years ago applied veneer with contact cement. the veneer subsequently came loose in football shaped bulges here and there. In places,the veneer came entirely loose.

As a matter of fact,there had just been an article in Fine Woodworking magazine about veneering. It pointed out the exact same problems this fellow had had from using contact cement. Fine Woodworking had the same results. This was years ago,back in the late 70's or early 80's.

I always use hide glue for veneering,and have not had a failure on any harpsichords I built,even from 1971. The hide glue came clear through the veneer,and after it was scraped off and sanded,sealed the wood nicely for varnishing.

[Joe Jensen]

I haven't used your product,but I have seen disastrous results from using contact cement to hold veneer on. A very bad craftsman I knew years ago applied veneer with contact cement. the veneer subsequently came loose in football shaped bulges here and there. In places,the veneer came entirely loose.

As a matter of fact,there had just been an article in Fine Woodworking magazine about veneering. It pointed out the exact same problems this fellow had had from using contact cement. Fine Woodworking had the same results. This was years ago,back in the late 70's or early 80's.

I always use hide glue for veneering,and have not had a failure on any harpsichords I built,even from 1971. The hide glue came clear through the veneer,and after it was scraped off and sanded,sealed the wood nicely for varnishing.

I had issues with contact cement on wood veneer when top coated with Watco. I assume over time oils from the Watco penetrated to the rubber cement part of the contact cement. I had other pieces that were varnished and they did not delaminate...joe

[george wilson]

I don't know what the guy finished his contact veneered surface with,but it might have been shellac,knowing his penchant for short cuts. Wasn't sprayed on.

[David DeCristoforo]

You cannot use any contact cement to bond raw wood veneer. Period. Don't even try it. You can use it with backed veneers with varying degrees of success. Some paper backed veneers are just as bad as raw wood when it comes to staying stuck down with contact. The best results are with phenolic backed veneers. The 3M glues work well with backed veneers but you are pretty much limited to small areas that can be easily covered with an aerosol can. I have had the best luck with Weldwood contact applied with a fine knap paint roller.

[Craig D Peltier]

You cannot use any contact cement to bond raw wood veneer. Period. Don't even try it. You can use it with backed veneers with varying degrees of success. Some paper backed veneers are just as bad as raw wood when it comes to staying stuck down with contact. The best results are with phenolic backed veneers. The 3M glues work well with backed veneers but you are pretty much limited to small areas that can be easily covered with an aerosol can. I have had the best luck with Weldwood contact applied with a fine knap paint roller.
Thanks David, an when using the Weldwood is it a paper backed veneer ? I know not to use raw wood with spray adhesives.

[David DeCristoforo]

Weldwood is the brand of glue.
http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=35

[Craig D Peltier]

Weldwood is the brand of glue.
http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=35

I phrased my question wrong. When you use weldwood is it on a paper backed veneer you use it on?
I heard that on paperbacked veneer you dont get as much figure as you can on a raw wood piece veneer. Do you know why that is?

[David DeCristoforo]

Yes, with backed veneers. But like I said, I try to use phenolic backed veneers when I can because the paper backing still allows the veneer to "creep" to some degree which is what causes the problems (bubbling, blistering, peeling, etc.)

Figured backed veneers can be found but they are less common because backed veneers are a "manufactured product" and suppliers want a consistent product. So most of the backed veneers tend to be laid up with more "common" woods.

[Craig D Peltier]

Yes, with backed veneers. But like I said, I try to use phenolic backed veneers when I can because the paper backing still allows the veneer to "creep" to some degree which is what causes the problems (bubbling, blistering, peeling, etc.)

Figured backed veneers can be found but they are less common because backed veneers are a "manufactured product" and suppliers want a consistent product. So most of the backed veneers tend to be laid up with more "common" woods.

Thanks for the info.

[Bill Wyko]

Go to www.veneersupplies.com (http://www.veneersupplies.com). Joe has glue specifically for veneer. You don't want to use a glue that dries flexible, not even titebonds. You need a glue that dries hard. That 3-m stuff is for vinyl or plastic veneers not wood veneers. I do veneering regularly and have had absolutely no issues what so ever with the glues from Joe.:D Here's a link. If you search his site you'll find tons of great info. You'll come away with a degree in veneering.
http://www.veneersupplies.com/default.php?cPath=86_40&osCsid=41568cefa2bf0fc26b32ceed17b09ebd

[Frank Drew]

You don't want to use a glue that dries flexible, not even titebonds. You need a glue that dries hard.

IMO, white and yellow glues (ELmer's and Titebond) work fine with real wood veneers; the amount of flexibility, or cold creep, in those glues is really minimal and not enough to cause any problems, at least in my experience.

Weldwood's Plastic Resin Glue is great with veneers and give you a bit more open time, and dries hard as a rock, but there's the very minor inconvenience of mixing it, and it's more temperature sensitive than white or yellow glues.

I agree, of course, that contact cements are unsuitable for real wood veneer.

[george wilson]

Why not just use hide glue? It is the centuries proven glue.

[Frank Drew]

George,

I'll turn it around -- why use hide glue? I used it exclusively for three years when I apprenticed, and got quite used to it, but I found no real need for it when I opened my own shop; I did have some on hand but used it only very occasionally, maybe a few times in over twenty years.

Apart from musical instrument work, in what way is it superior to the ready-to-go alternatives? Certainly not convenience, and its often-touted reversability isn't a factor if we're talking about veneer.

[David Keller NC]

"Apart from musical instrument work, in what way is it superior to the ready-to-go alternatives? Certainly not convenience, and its often-touted reversability isn't a factor if we're talking about veneer."

I'll give this a shot - hide glue has several advantages over PVA glues. Number one in my mind is reversability. I've done more repairs to old veneer that's cracked, bubbled or accumulated damage from the ages than I care for, and the pieces that used hide glue were a good deal easier to repair than those that used resorcinol-based glues. In certain cases, I could just steam a section of bubbled veneer, inject a little more liquid hide glue with a syringe, cover it with wax paper, and weight it down - voila! instant repair. In a few cases (small pieces), I completely removed the veneer and repaired it as a separate piece, then stuck it back down. Because hide glue will bond to old hide glue, there was no laborious scraping, sanding, etc...

Number 2 reason to use hide glue is that it's a good deal easier to scrape than PVA glues. With modern veneer, that's a concern, because rotary-cut thin modern veneer often has a few checks that go clear through, and glue will need to be scraped off after it comes out of the press. I find the hide glue to come off much easier than dried PVA or resorcinol glues.

Number 3 reason to use hide glue is that it takes stain or dye fairly easily, and it's relatively dark. So if you can't quite level everything by scraping on a highly figured piece of thin modern veneer because it has a few defects, that's no big deal - the hide glue will not show.

Number 4 reason is that hide glue is not nearly the moisture barrier that modern glues are. This one I can't prove, but I think it's a bad idea to introduce a thin, moisture-impermeable layer over a large area on the interior of the surface of a large piece of furniture. The outside, yes of course (shellac, laquer, etc...as the final finish), but not the inside, where you want as close to perfect moisture equilibrium as you can get.

[george wilson]

What He said.