Hand Cut Dovetails, tips?

[Chris Thompson]

OK, so one of my goals is to learn to hand cut dovetails. To that end I went to Lowes and bought a set of Marples Blue Chip chisels and a $14 Stanley "Reversible Dovetail Saw", and a $10 fret saw with a few grades of blades.

I attempted to cut a tail into the end of a piece of poplar I had lying around. The Stanley saw wouldn't even do much more than put a dent in the end of the poplar. I decided to rough it out with the fret saw and clean it up with a 1/4" chisel.

I guess for a first attempt, it wasn't too bad. I only cut out one "slot", and it was a bit uneven.

So I'm now looking for tips on cutting dovetails.

First, it's obvious that my saw just isn't up to snuff. While I'd love a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw, I don't have that kind of cash. What should I be looking for, perhaps on ebay, that I can refurbish similar to what I'm about to do with my Stanley planes?

Should I be looking at Japanese saws? I think I'd prefer an open tote like the Lie-Nielsen over a straight handle like a Dozuki (And my crappy Stanley)

Any and all tips welcome.

[Tim Sproul]

Those Marples will work fine in poplar. Don't think about pounding or even paring harder woods with them. The edges will crumble like the chisels are sandstone...at least that is my experience with them.

For saws, I can't help you much. I'm completely hooked on Japanese saws. I do know some who have gotten old Disston's and others and fettled them into good working shape. Some stores will let you try their tools...especially saws....in the store so you can know what you're buying. If you've a Woodcraft nearby, you could just get one of each saw you'd like to try...take 'em home and try 'em and then return all the others after finding the one you like. Assuming they won't just let you try the saws out in the store.

Practice would be the biggest tip....let the saw do the work. You are only guiding the saw.....the teeth will cut the wood without your help. And if one method doesn't seem to work well for you.....be imaginative and try it a different way. It's only the end result...the fit and look of the dovetails that matters. If you have to use some asanine back-assed way to get there...so be it :)

[Marc Hills]

Chris,

Far be it from me to claim any real proficiency in dovetailing, but I have done my share in the past year, and I immensely enjoy the process.

I won't suggest any particular technique, but five will get you ten that your big box Stanley "dovetail" saw is filed (ahem, stamped) with a cross cut profile. Exactly wrong for dovetailing; cutting both pins and tails are rip cuts.

I use a lovely refurbished Disston backsaw that I filed with to a rip tooth pattern and it's something like four or five strokes to cut each side of the tails. Very quick and precise.

I suggest you return the Stanley and either order a true dovetail (western or Japanese) saw from a good woodworking mailorder company (Lee Valley, Woodcraft, Highland Hardware) or be a true uber galoot and rehab an old saw.

And Tim is quite right: practice, practice, practice.

[Chris Thompson]

I forgot to mention that I have no illusions at all that the Stanley saw is a piece of, uh, junk. I've got the receipt, and it's DEFINITELY going back to Lowes :)

As for my marples chisels, they were cheap. A set of four for $19.95. At least in the short term, they'll be used for poplar and pine. I've got my eye on a set of Two Cherries or similar chisels.

I once read a story in, I think, Fine Woodworking from a guy who said every day when he walked into his shop he would grab two pieces of scrap wood and quickly dovetail them together as an exercise. He likened it to stretching for an athlete. I like that idea.

[Richard Gillespie]

Chris, I use Marples chisels, almost exclusively, for hand cut dovetails. I don't understand others position that the edges crumble. I use scary sharp method and will admit that I stop and frequently strop them. I've used them in Pine, Ash, Red Oak, and Maple. Most of the stock I use is 7/8" to 1-1/8" thick. I have two sets plus and am quite happy with them. I'm afraid to buy a really good set and see what I've been missing.

For saws, I have two. One is a Japanese pull saw with a steel back and replaceable blade, sold by Woodcraft for about $30.00. The other is a much more expensive Adria rip saw I was given as a present by my wife for Christmas. Both are great for ripping pins and tails. There are a few other saws I bought from Lowe's and Home Depot labeled dovetail saws that were pure junk, don't bother. The secret to hand cut dovetails is a straight cut. I hope to learn that some day.

I got turned on to hand cutting dovetails by a Frank Klaus video. So much so, that my Leigh D-4 usually collects dust.

[scott pollack]

chris , im with richard. i use marples blue chips as well as the scary sharp method. keep em sharp and you wont have any problems. to me , they are fine chisels. thats doesnt mean im right or wrong, just that thats what works for me.

practice , practice , practice! but not on pine. i find its hard to get a crisp edge on it. the fibers are too soft. to start off with, i wouldnt even start to cut a joint first. get used to the saw and the angles. take a scrap of oak and draw several 1:6 , 1:7 and 1:8 lines and just practice cutting to the baseline by splitting the line you have drawn. after you get used to that , cut the end off and draw the angles angled in the opposite direction. then combine the cuts and start a tail.

id be glad to walk you through the process. please feel free to email me.

scoot

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
I used Marples Chisels for years for dovetails and they are fine. It is actually much easier to cut them using a harder wood like Maple. The current issue on Fine Woodworking has tips which seem helpful on handcutting dovetails. The secret to all joinery is to scribe an accurate line and cut on the "Waste" side. In other words the thickness of the blade is on the "waste" side. A douzuki is a great saw to usewith about 20 tpi. A Zona razor saw is also good. The blade should not have a set. The videos and books explain it well. Tage Frid chooses to cut the pins first ...many others choose the tails. Just try through dovetails first. Half blind are a bit more difficult. I think cutting the tails first is more forgiving. You will need a good marking gauge and a marking knife. I am glad to see you are attempting hand cut dovetails...as you see your progress your confidence will increase and you will be able to execute other difficult joinery. Make sure you scribe both the edge and face of each cut to insure the saw is held at the correct angle. If they are tight...pair them with a chisel or knife ...the shiney spots are the tight ones. The gauge should be set to to the side thickness plus 1/32. when you chop, undercut slightly so the face is what touches. These and many other tricks come with practice. It is a rewarding endevour that really is the spirit of woodworking and a long history.
Here is a great book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1561580686/qid=1089853592/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-5717658-8290535?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Scott Quesnelle]

I would suggest you hit your local library. A large number have good woodworking videos.

2 on dovetailing I would recommend are:

Frank Klaus'
Dovetailing a Drawer.

Ian Kirby's Dovetail video but can't remember the name.

Rob Cosman also has a good video out. Available at www.robcosman.com

As for saws, you are in a good chunk of the country for flea markets. Hit them, even better if you can do it on a weekday early in the morning.. Or sign up for the oldtool list and was for the FS posts on Flea Market Mondays.

As for the dovetails. I would just get your bevel gauge out and just mark a bunch of parallel angled lines \\\\\\ on a 1x6 about 12 of them. Put a shoulder down 3/4" Connect the lines to the shoulder. And cut to the line.
Cut 1" off the end of the board, Now repeat on the opposite angle //////. When you can follow those. Do the angles on the face of the board and straight across the end.

I would also suggest you check out Jeff Gorman's site:

http://www.amgron.clara.net/

And when you do get a dovetail that goes together. Date it and put it aside. Then cut one again in a few days and compare them.. I still have my first ugly ugly dovetail joint.

[Roy Wall]

As a newbie to dovetail work, I wonder how well the Veritas system works:


http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=41718&category=1,42884&ccurrency=3&SID=

Any thoughts...........(good way to learn, then on to "real" hand cut dovetails?)

[Dave Anderson NH]

I don't have much to add about technique, but I'll offer a suggestion on dealing with crumbling edges on Marples Blue Chip chisels. I have a set and still use them for many things. If you take and increase the cutting angle from the standard 25 degrees to either 27 1/2 or 30 it will greatly strengthen the cutting edge. Rather than going to the effort of regrinding the full bevel, just increase it for about the first 1/16 to 1/8 inch. Essentially you are just adding a steeper microbevel of unusually large size.

On dovetail saws, find something reasonably cheap to start if you are on a budget and rework it yourself. Dovetail saws are rip cut so resharpening the teeth is easy for a beginner. Any excess set can be removed by laying the saw flat and taking a few strokes (same number both sides) on each blade face with a fine stone or a block of around 220 grit SiC paper wrapped around a block of wood, hard rubber, or cork. If your budget allows, Adria Saws and Spehar Toolworks both offer very fine dovetails saws of quality equal to or better than the Lie-Neilsens and both are less money.

[Gary Whitt]

Chris, try this info:

http://www.amgron.clara.net/dovetails/dovetailindex.htm

I'm using it as a guide while I learn.

So far, I've cut both hands and two fingers with chisels and Japanese saws practicing dovetails. :eek:
My hand tools are sharp!!! :eek:
I haven't been bitten like that with power tools!!! :D

[David Wilson]

Chris;
Don' know if it is still available but I have a VCR tape with a segment by Frank Klaus on hand cutting dovetails. Will try to find it this weekend and get you more specifics.

[Chris Thompson]

Guys,

Thanks for all the tips. The Stanley "dovetail saw" went back to lowes today, and a trip to Woodcraft and Rockler are on tap for tomorrow morning for a dozuki.

I've also got my eye on two older saws on ebay that look promising.

Dave, I'd heard of Adria, but never heard of Spehar. The primitive part of my brain went into overdrive when I read that site. An incredibly well made dovetail saw with a tote custom fit to your hand size, and it's only $90? It's a shame my birthday was in April. I'll have to find some excuse to buy myself a present. :)

[Steve Kubien]

Chris, I have one of Vlad Spehar's dovetail saws and love it! (May be because I only paid $80Cdn for it since it was of earlier products whilst he was working on handle designs). It's comfortable and cuts as straight as you could wish.

Take care,
Steve K
Ajax, Ontario

[Alan Turner]

Chris,
A good quality, and inexpensibve, Jap. saw is available from:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/index.html
Mark Singer told me of this company, and it is an excellent source.
Alan

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
A good quality, and inexpensibve, Jap. saw is available from:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/index.html
Mark Singer told me of this company, and it is an excellent source.
Alan
Chris,
These are excellent saws and you can buy just handles or blades....so it is cost effective. Buy one "Queen" handle and several blades...or you can buy the insert and make your own...I have several I made from nice hardwood.

[Chris Thompson]

I'm really intrigued by these Tashiro saws. And I'm pondering what to do next. I did just buy a Disston backsaw off ebay, so I'm pausing to see how that turns out.

Mark, what I really want is a japanese blade with an open, bent tote like the LN saws. Do you think their blade holder could be worked into a handle of that sort?

[Alan Turner]

I am not sure what Mark thinks of this idea, but I would not recommend it. The straight handle of a Jap. saw is related to its intended proper usage. For example, at Toshiro's, he sells a Jap., pull stroke, hacksaw blade, and for it there is a special handle, which has an angle, to allow the increased us of downward pressure. On a saw for wood, the weight of the saw is plenty of down pressure. I usually carry some of the saw weight in my hand and arm during the cut anyway, so would not want additional pressure. Down pressure is a problem with wood hand saws since this pressure is what causes the saw to cut other than straight, in my experience.
Like Mark, I am cheap. (: I bought 4 blades, one handle, and 3 handle clips, and made the other 3 handles (each of a diff. wood, so I could tell which was which easily). The full handle is about $15, the clip is $3.50, as I recall.
When I went to the site, I noticed that he had flush cut saws, both right and left, and as my cheapie was worn and kinked, I decided to get those 2 also. Boy are they great! They truly leave no mark on the wood when you are trimming a tenon or dowel or plug. I used it on the cherry coffee table with the 16 through tenons, and it was fast and accurate. No marks.
I also opted for the smaller rip and crosscut saws. I use both, but not for joinery, as I prefer the western saws for dovetails. But, I do teach hand tools a bit, and many students find that they are better with the Jap. style saws than the western. Each to his own.
Alan

[Chris Thompson]

Alan,

I've actually tried neither a western style dovetail, nor a dozuki. I do own a japanese style saw with a folding handle bought at, I think, Home Depot. It actually cuts very well, but is much too large and coarse for dovetails, I'd think.

The piece of ^@(*$*! stanley "dovetail" saw I bought and returned had a straight handle and I hated it, though that could have been the fact that the saw was crap, and not the handle.

I plan to get a set from Tashiro down the road. After all, you can't have too many saws, can you?

[Alan Turner]

I have a 1975 or so Stanley straight handle dovetail saw, filed cross cut, and it is fine. I have the L-N gents saw, filed rip, and it is my go to guy for smaller dovetails. For larger ones, I use either a 10" or 14" D handle Disston. Be sure to point your first finger, even n the straight handle saws, and you will find it a bit easier to stay straight on your stroke.
Alan

[Mark Kelly]

Is it necessary that a dovetail saw be filed rip? Even though I know one is technically ripping to cut dovetails, but would you want a nicer face and thus want a saw to be filed crosscut? Just curious.

[Mark Singer]

I agree with Alan...don't change the blade. The Japanese blades cot on the pull stroke...thus the handle is a tension member for pulling. Western saws are pushed using the full hand to push. You should try both types. Most used western saws will need to be sharpened. The Japanese saws are ready to go. I will post a handle and blade for you to see.

[Tim Sproul]

Is it necessary that a dovetail saw be filed rip?

No, it isn't a requirement. I learned using a 240 mm Gyokucho brand dozuki with crosscut teeth. I now use a 210 mm Mitsukawa "hardwood" rip filed dozuki. The Mitsukawa cuts about 5 times faster and leaves as good a surface behind. Because the crosscut teeth cut slower....I think it was easier for me to learn to cut straight. I couldn't botch the cut with a single stroke.....with the Mitsukawa, I'm learning I have to concentrate much more with each stroke since it cuts deep enough in one pass to ruin the dovetail if I'm not careful. 'Course for some...the slower cutting may make it more difficult to learn to saw straight....

Rip teeth, when cutting dovetails, cut faster. So speed is the only reason. If properly made, a rip dovetail saw (Western or Eastern) will leave as good a surface as required for even the most discerning woodoworker.

[Mark Singer]

Here are some Tashiro saws with my custom handles and a few western counterparts...mostly older

[Tim Sproul]

Mark,

Sweet handles....but I gotta ask...does the heavier handle (I'm assuming this as the traditional wood used for a hand is extremely light) help or hinder, IYO?

[Mark Singer]

Mark,

Sweet handles....but I gotta ask...does the heavier handle (I'm assuming this as the traditional wood used for a hand is extremely light) help or hinder, IYO?Tim,
I like the balance of my custom handels. You can adjust the balance by modifying the length. The thicker handle fits better in my hand. I use the "King" handle for general cutting and larger joints. The Queen has a top spline(dozuki...or backsaw) to stiffen and is the dovetail..and fine joint choice. The left thumb can be used as a fence to steady the saw and support it at the first strokes. The smaller handles can cause cramping and you can make the handle to fit your hand, Frank Tashiro sells the blades , handles and also the inserts as Alan stated. It is quite a nice selection from Compass saws to tree trimmers...worth looking at!

[James Carmichael]

Chris,
A good quality, and inexpensibve, Jap. saw is available from:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/index.html
Mark Singer told me of this company, and it is an excellent source.
Alan

I can vouch for the Tashiro HW saws, they're great, I believe they're called "Zeta" saws. I have the regular handle with the joint and joint rip blade.

As for the Marples, I've used them on everything, that 4-piece set from Lowes should make a good starter. Not to start an argument, but if the edges are "crumbling", it sounds like they're being used in applications not meant for bench chisels, like chopping mortises. I use ScarySharp as well with about a 30* microbevel. I can't vouch for how well they hold an edge as I pamper my edged tools and touch them up constantly on 1000, 1500, and 2000 grit SC sandpaper.

[Billy Bussey]

Chris--Check Mr. Anderson's reply to your post.

I have no quarrel with any of the saw recommendations posted in replys to your post.

:) But, Mr. Anderson's recommendation for reducing the set of the teeth using an abrasive stone or fine wet/dry sandpaper is a good one. And, you will probably find this useful no matter what saw you buy. I have a Stanley Gent Saw; and old Distton backed saw; a fairly expensive Lee Valley backed saw; a German made Eberle Plus Gent Saw. I only had to sharpen the old Distton. But, I used Mr. Anderson's recommended solution on the other three. I was amazed at the difference. Now they cut very well and with a very thin kerf. I have a Japanese backed dovetail saw. I like it also, but since adjusting the set on the other three, I had just as soon use them. I originally saw the abrasive stone treatment on one of Scott Phillips shows three or four years ago. It took me a long time to get nerve enough to try it. And, I did it on the least expensive saw first. But, it works fine. I used three strokes on each side and did not need to do more. Best Wishes.

BILLY B.

[Jack Young]

Chris-

Lee Valley, I think, has a jig and japanese dovetail saw package which is rather unique. It uses an earth magnet to keep the sawblade firmly on the jig and has two jigs with the most commonly used angles for dovetail work. My take on it is that it will give you precise and straight cuts. I have one, but have not used it as yet. Other things keep getting in the way.

Jack

[Steve Denvir]

Chris, I've found Ian Kirby's book, The Complete Dovetail" to be invaluable. Incredible detail, well explained. I immediately recognized a bunch of things I was doing wrong.

Good luck

Steve in Toronto