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View Full Version : any one ever applied for a patent?



curtis rosche
03-02-2009, 12:11 PM
i have a great idea that would revolutionize hollow form turning. i have no idea how to get a patent and what would be involved. does anyone have any experience?

Robert McGowen
03-02-2009, 1:32 PM
I have been down this road before. It is my understanding, sure to be corrected if wrong :rolleyes:, that you don't need just an idea, but that you need a product. You would need a build a prototype of your idea and submit the proper documents to the patent office showing how it works and that there is nothing reasonably close that is not already patented.

If you get that far, the main thing to worry about is not really whether you get a patent or not, but if you will be able to defend your patent. You will have to sue and have the means to sue, if anyone violates your patent. If you get a patent and can't do anything about it if someone copies it, what point is there to have a patent? Will it be worth the time and expense?

Then you will have to be able to market and manufacture your product or sell your patent in order to make any income. It is a long road from an idea to making any money off of it.

Darius Ferlas
03-02-2009, 1:46 PM
I was about to apply for a patent about 15 years ago - a one handed can opener. I checked the patent office. It was already taken. According to my calculations I was late by as many days as it took to do the research. Had I applied right away, without checking it out I would have gotten it.

Oh, and you actually don't have to build a prototype. Detailed description of the construction, possibly drawings and principles of operation are sufficient. Still, having a prototype may be helpful since it may prove in practice the invention will work as intended.

To start with, you may describe the invention and mail the paperwork to yourself, preferably with some sort of registered mail. This is what can be used as grounds for the "patent pending" claim. It will not ensure your exclusivity to the patent but it may scare away some potential attempts of infringement.

It does take a while for the patent to go through the review, and then as Robert wrote, it's a whole new battle to defend the patent in case someone with deep pockets tries to steal it.

Mike Henderson
03-02-2009, 3:30 PM
I have a number of patents but I'm NOT a patent attorney. If you really think you have a unique, valuable idea, contact a reputable patent attorney who can do a search to see if the idea can be patented (but be warned, a good patent attorney can always get a patent - which doesn't mean it will have any value).

But even if you have a unique, valuable idea and a patent, you're not home free. You're only at the beginning of the road. To make any money you have to get the product built and marketed. And then, you have to deal with any people who infringe your patent.

Additionally, in MANY cases, once another company sees your product, they can often build a product that does the same thing but does not infringe on your patent. Then the winner will be the one with the best marketing.

I don't remember all the rules, but I think you have one year from the time the idea is disclosed publicly to file for your patent - ask an attorney. If so, you can go to some companies who build products in the area of your patent and see if they have any interest (don't be surprised if they don't). If you find interest, you can file.

But get some good legal advice before you start. Whatever you do, don't go to those people who advertise on TV (Do you have a good idea? Let us help you get a patent and make a lot of money.)

Mike

Dennis Brooker
03-02-2009, 3:43 PM
I'm a newbie to this forum but have more than a couple of patents and have been dealing in Intellectual Property for more than 30 years - Everything that Mike Henderson said is good advice - It also helps to find a patent attorney that has expertise in the area of which you hope to obtain a patent - IMHO a Patent Pending is sometimes more valuable than a Patent - When you have the Patent Pending status it is a good time to approach companies that may have some interest - Also keep in mind that a patent is no better than the bank account behind it and I know that to be a fact based on personal experience - Also keep in mind that when an attorney or whomever does a patent search the results of that search is based on their "opinion" as to whether or not your idea may be able to be patented - Hope I've been a little bit of help - DB

Lee Schierer
03-02-2009, 4:41 PM
Dennis and Mike are both right. I've worked for companies who have asked me to review patents and find if they are legitimate and if there are ways around them. Whatever you do don't go to any company with your idea unless you have registered it with an attorney. Ideas can easily be stolen by companies that are "not interested in your idea". Some one there may have been working on that idea for years but didn't put the last little bit of information together to make it work and you just handed it to them. If they beat your filing date, guess who loses.

It isn't a cheap effort either. Expect to pay thousands of dollars to get your patent and potentially thousands more defending it, unlike the low cost offers you see on TV. Lots of things are patented and some work and others don't. We just reviewed a patent that our company submitted against prior art and the claims of the prior art are so broad, anyone making anything with similar ingedients would violate their patent. To get really basic, the prior art nearly claimed that any combination of elements in the periodic table could be used to make their formula, therfore anyone using just a few elements would be infringing.

curtis rosche
03-02-2009, 7:50 PM
ok, so where do i start?

Mike Henderson
03-02-2009, 8:47 PM
Dennis and Mike are both right. I've worked for companies who have asked me to review patents and find if they are legitimate and if there are ways around them. Whatever you do don't go to any company with your idea unless you have registered it with an attorney. Ideas can easily be stolen by companies that are "not interested in your idea". Some one there may have been working on that idea for years but didn't put the last little bit of information together to make it work and you just handed it to them. If they beat your filing date, guess who loses.

In the US, priority on patents is not based on date of filing but on date of invention. That's why it's very important to document your work and get it dated. In the old days, we had a notary on staff who would notarize our work papers so we could prove when the idea was developed.

Check with an attorney, but you can disclose your idea and not lose the right to patent it. Many companies will not talk with you without you signing an agreement that says a bunch of things - one of which addresses the issue that they may be working on exactly the same thing.

Almost every company has had the problem of an inventor coming to talk with them, and then claiming the company stole their idea. So they make you sign a document which makes it difficult for you to make that claim.

As far as where to start, go see a good patent attorney.

Mike

Scott Shepherd
03-02-2009, 10:21 PM
Perhaps you guys who have done it can tell me if what I was told is correct. I had some things, several things I wanted to patent. I was told that it would take 18-24 months to get a patent approved and the cost of the patent attorney would be in the $13,000 neighborhood.

I couldn't wait 18-24 months to get the product to market. I spoke to a number of people who told me I'd be wasting my time and money by going the patent route. My items would be something that larger companies with deep pockets would jump on to make it their own. I was told that those types of companies had better lawyers than I could ever afford and the end result would probably be their high paid lawyers finding loopholes in my low end lawyer's patent filing, and in the end, they'd walk away with all my work and I'd get nothing for it.

I was told my best course of action would be to produce the items, flood the market as quickly as possible, take all the money I could make from it and get as far as I could before it was copied, which it would be.

After all that, I figured it was worth way more trouble than I wanted to go through.

Robert McGowen
03-02-2009, 10:27 PM
I was told my best course of action would be to produce the items, flood the market as quickly as possible, take all the money I could make from it and get as far as I could before it was copied, which it would be.



I have personally done what you said and it was the best course of action at the time. Looking back at things, it was still the best course of action, for my circumstances anyway. :rolleyes:

Mike Henderson
03-02-2009, 10:35 PM
I can't answer all your questions but you do not have to wait until you actually receive a patent before producing a product. Your filing will protect your priority. If another company produces a copy of your product before your patent is issued, you cannot get any damages from them. But as soon as your patent is issued, you can bring an action against them if they continue producing it and can get damages (if you win) for anything they produced after the patent was issued and they were notified.

While some patents may issue in 18-24 months, most of mine took three years or more. $13,000 sounds high to me but it depends on the situation.

Enforcing a patent is very expensive. If you're up against a large company and they're determined, it'll be difficult and expensive to win. It'll be difficult and expensive if you lose. Large companies have attorneys on staff so they're paying them whether they fight you or not -so a lot of their expense is fixed. But to you, it's all extra. Patents are a big boys game - it's not for individuals.

Mike

Walt Nicholson
03-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Curtis, I have a couple of patents from years ago. At that time I found a patent attorney that specialized in the area of my idea. He required drawings and detailed information about the idea. His initial charge was to have a complete patent search done to find any and every thing that was anywhere related to my idea. After reviewing all that were found, he gave me his professional opinion as to whether my idea was "unique" enough from the others to justify going further. His fee for this initial search was significantly less than immediately applying for a patent and helped me decide whether to proceed or not. You can go to www.uspto.gov/ (http://www.uspto.gov/) and (after getting past the learning curve) search for any patents similar to your idea. You probably won't find all of them but if you find a close match you will know not to spend the big bucks with an attorney. Also, if you discuss your idea with individuals or companies it is a good idea to have them sign a "non-disclosure" form prior to showing them your idea. The previous posts are correct about having companies steal ideas and have more attorneys than you can afford to fight but the form helps a little.

Scott Shepherd
03-03-2009, 8:41 AM
Patents are a big boys game - it's not for individuals.

Mike

That's exactly the impression I was left with.

curtis rosche
03-05-2009, 8:32 PM
is there a way to do it with out an attorney?

Dennis Brooker
03-06-2009, 7:28 AM
Curtis - In theory, yes - In reality probably not - You have to meet the requirements for the way the drawings are done and application is drawn up etc. Depending on what it is you have to patent I would also agree that sometimes it is better to make as many as you can as sell them as fast as you can and then move on to the next thing - I know it's hard but try not to let your ego get in the way of making a practical and profitable business decision - Many times there's a big difference between thinking something will make money and knowing something will make money - I'm speaking from experience and I'm just trying to give you some advice from someone who's been going down this road for over 30 years - I hope you take my statements with the good intentions they are meant - DB

curtis rosche
03-06-2009, 2:12 PM
ok, so would a regular lawyer/attourney be able to help with some of the basic things? i.e. forms and wording? i have unlimited free access to one.

Dennis Brooker
03-06-2009, 2:44 PM
Curtis - Maybe, but not likely - My best guess is you would need the help of a Patent attorney - I would check to see if any of the state or local colleges offer free legal assistance in applying for a patent - sometimes retired attorneys offer their help for free through such venues - It might be worth checking into - just a thought - DB

Scott Shepherd
03-07-2009, 8:16 AM
Curtis, I have an old friend who's patented dozens of things and he did them all himself. He swears it's dead easy to do. However, I've been told by others that it IS dead easy to do (and only $300-400), BUT, the problem is that you, or someone without patent experience will be writing it, while the big corporation with deep pockets will be putting a highly skilled, highly paid patent attorney on the case to find the loopholes. So essentially, they will find the way around it easier, because the loopholes weren't plugged by a person who knows how and what to do. It's like hiring an English Major to find grammar issues in something a 12th grader writes. If they want to find something, they can and will.

I don't know if any of that is true, but it's what I have been told. Take that for whatever it's worth. I'm sure some of the guys on here with first hand knowledge can verify if it's accurate.

Pat Germain
03-07-2009, 11:01 AM
I was told my best course of action would be to produce the items, flood the market as quickly as possible, take all the money I could make from it and get as far as I could before it was copied, which it would be.

I agree that's a good plan. Money can be made from manufacturing, marketing and selling a product. It's very difficult to make money from a patent alone. And, as mentioned, even if your product is patented, it will be easy for someone else to copy it.

Thus, you're back to the basic game of capitalism. Make a good product with good value and be competitive. Let someone else fight in court.