Fire and tools

[Denise Ohio]

I was wondering if anyone here has gone through a shop or house fire.

I'm doing research for another book and I need to know what happens to the tools. Very quickly, the characters live above their shop/work space, which is set on fire by some jerk. In addition to paper and wood, there are inks and wood finishes, such as lacquers and varnishes, oils, waxes, etc., downstairs. The characetrs get out fine, but the entrie structure is burned down to the foundation.

What I need to know is what happens to the plane blades, chisels, hammers, and other tools. Will they fuse because of the heat? Will they lose their temper? Can they be salvaged, and if so, how?

How do you clean these things?

I'm going to contact some insurance people and restorer people, and I can imagine the devastation of finding both home and livelihood destroyed like this, but if anyone wants to share with me their experiences, I'd appreciate it.

I don't want to cause anyone undue pain by bringing this up, but if you want to discuss, I'd love to hear. You can always reach me via email at ohio at holytoledo dot com.

As always, thanks.

[Lee Schierer]

It depends on how hot it got. Steel heated to 1400-1500 degrees can lose its temper. Hardened items can lose their temper and cast iron may warp. If the tool looks damaged, most likely it is. Wood handles and such on chisels and planes would cause the planes to lose significant value from an antique or collectors point of view. Replacing parts on older equipment may not be possible if the manufacturer is out of business.

Machine bearings would be history after 500-800 degrees. Anything with plastic parts would be damaged at 2-300 degrees.

Hand saws, saw blades, router bits, shaper cuters and drills would be pretty much trash after a fire.

Cleanin up would involve total disassembly and wire brushing, oiling and reassembly. Cutting edges would need to be sharpened.

[Steve Leverich]

Try googling this phrase - house fire internal temperature - you'll get some useful info on your subject. I'd think that internal temps (typically 1200 deg F) would escalate with accellerants involved (lacquer thinners, etc) -

Hope this helps... Steve

[Matt Meiser]

There was a creeker who had a shop fire a few years back. Maybe someone will remember his name. He was able to salvage some tools IIRC.

[Denise Ohio]

Thanks you all here and via email.

My neighbor is a blacksmith and we had a long talk about what I was trying to accomplish with this setting. My focus is on the handtools surviving and some of them being restored.

The motors and electrical are long gone---I think it would be fair to say that right now, anything that speaks of the modern world has been detroyed in this fictional fire. But some tools are too dear to abandon because they are too useful and there is beauty in utility.

So in my mind I have hauled out all the chemicals and while the structure is unsound, parts are still standing. (The structure has to be unsound because I need these characters to move into another shelter.) The characters are the target of the fire, so I've changed the layout of the building to make the living area completely gutted, while a portion of the shop isn't as crispy as the rest.

FTR, I write what has sneeringly been described as literachur, which is a nice way of saying, "Lots of words; no money." So I can do anything I want---even abandon pesky facts. But I don't want to abandon them, so much so that my neighbor has got me scheduled to help him in his forge next week. I'm pretty sure my first lesson in blacksmithing is going to be Sweeping. If I pass that lesson, then I get to learn Putting Things Away.

Sometimes I take research a little too far.

[Scott T Smith]

Denise, I experienced a garage apartment fire last summer. The garage contained my woodshop, and apparently an electrical wire caused a fire in the small attic space over the apartment. Fortunately nobody was hurt, but the tool damage was extensive.

Basically the entire upstairs burnt and then collapsed down on the shop. Because the fire started in the attic, it was trapped between the rafters, roof sheathing and the inside drywall and convection took hold and the fire really took off.

In the shop, there was heat damage from the ceiling down, and water damage everywhere. Portions of the shop that had non-latex paint and varnishes stored were completely incinerated, along with anything plastic or aluminum nearby. An extensive amount of Festool equipment stored in Systainers totally melted, including the aluminum components. The cast iron equipment did not look too bad, until you noticed that all of rubber and plastic was destroyed, the bearing seals destroyed, etc.

Yes, a small amount of tools were saved, less than 1% I'd estimate.

Some of the items in the apartment actually survived, protected by the drywall (since the fire was above it). Not much, but a little.

For the few things that survived, some were restorable (wire brush, bead blasting, new grinding, etc), and some were not (dial calipers, tape measures, est). Basically recovery consisted of dismantling, cleaning, lubricating, and in some instances painting or replacing wooden components such as hammer handles, etc. Some tools will just get used "as is" if they are usable.

Re the photo's, from left to right below - the structure after the fire was put out, the remnants of a Festool Domino, the remnants of a Festool systainer with unidentifiable tool inside, the remnants of a 24" bandsaw, 16" jointer, with widebelt and dual drum sanders in the background, and the structure about 15 minutes after we discovered the fire (and around 5 minutes after the FD arrived.

The emotional loss is more difficult to describe, and it does not go away quickly. The scars that remain are not only on the tools, they are within the soul as well.

Let me know if you'd like more info.

Scott

[Jack Dickey]

There was a creeker who had a shop fire a few years back. Maybe someone will remember his name. He was able to salvage some tools IIRC.

That wuddda been me , but I wasnt able to salvage the stuff I got from you ..

Not many ww tools were in the house , but all my firearms were lost , we had a pretty hot fire , around 2000 degrees +

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/GroovyJack/IMG_0014.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/GroovyJack/IM001666.jpg

[Mike Henderson]

A fire such as your fictional fire will not get hot enough to melt steel. And sometimes a tool or tools are in a location where they don't experience the full heat of the fire, especially if the fire department arrives and gains some control of the fire.

Hand tools, like chisels and planes, would likely have all their wood parts burned or severely damaged, and any heat treated metal (the plane blades and chisel ends) would likely have been somewhat annealed (or softened). If the tools are valuable to the owner (sentimental value) the tools could be brought back by heat treating the appropriate parts, cleaning the rest, and replacing the wood. It's possible that the heat could have warped the body of the hand planes and those might have to be machined flat again.

Some tools, like hand saws, probably could not be restored easily - you'll have to talk to a saw expert.

Your blacksmith friend can give you some information on heat treating the tools.

Since you're controlling the facts, you could have important tools stored in a location which was not severely affected by the fire - and that would eliminate a lot of questions about the restoration process. That's not really implausible - here in southern CA we've had fires that destroyed a number of homes. When people return, they find things in the ashes that somehow survived.

Mike

[Denise Ohio]

I feel like I've been punched in the chest. There is a poem by Elizabeth Bishop called "One Art:"

The art of losing isn't hard to master;
so many things seem filled with the intent
to be lost that their loss is no disaster.

Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

Then practice losing farther, losing faster:
places, and names, and where it was you meant
to travel. None of these will bring disaster.

I lost my mother's watch. And look! my last, or
next-to-last, of three loved houses went.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

I lost two cities, lovely ones. And, vaster,
some realms I owned, two rivers, a continent.
I miss them, but it wasn't a disaster.

--Even losing you (the joking voice, a gesture
I love) I shan't have lied. It's evident
the art of losing's not too hard to master
though it may look like (Write it!) like disaster.

It is a great poem, a villanelle, like Dylan Thomas's "Rage rage against the dying of the light," a poetic form too delicate for the sheer weight of these ideas and yet the poem remains standing. And in it are questions that interest me, one being, "How do you recover from the loss of the very things that helped you recover from another, deeper, grief?"

I have to go out and help the plumber in our new house, then hang some more drywall. But I'll have some more questions.

I thank you.

[Jack Dickey]

"How do you recover from the loss of the very things that helped you recover from another, deeper, grief?"

You dont recover , ever ..

Our home was nearly 100 years old , it had been in my family since the late teens when it was built by my cousins father a railroad man , who happened to be a master carpenter .. He added rooms on it and his homemade furniture ..

My cousin grew up in the house and never moved out , his father died when my cousin was in his early twenties and he stayed on with his mother , he married , and raised his family in it , added rooms and his homemade furniture , he was in law enforcement , and took on carpentry as a side job early on in life .. He and his wife divorced quite a few years back , and the kids were grown , and he left it to us , cause he was like a big brother to me ..

So there were quite a few family heirlooms that would not mean anything to anyone but the family , cant be replaced .. Wifes mother passed in Jan 07 ( fire was May 4 '07 , wifes b'day no less ) , and she ahd a lot of her mothers recipe books , quilts and the like , cant be replaced ..

Financially , it was the best thing to happen to us , we got a new house , and do not owe a dime except utilities ... But you never recover from it .. It still bothers my wife if she dwells on it very much .. I joke about it , is my way of dealing with it .. But we sucked it up and are trying to move on , nothing can be done to replace any of the stuff or the house ..

I learned a big lesson .. Stuff isnt important , stuff can be replaced .. Having stuff ( keeping up with the Joneses , tho we never did this ) for the sake of having it , is stoopid and ridiculous ..

90 odd years of Blood Sweat and Tears went into that place , and for what in the end ??

No , I'm not angry or mad, dont take it that way ...

[Randal Stevenson]

I started to type my experience (neighbors shop, I had a few tools in). It rambled on too much (too many memories).

But you might specifically ask your blacksmith friend about the stuff he makes, and what type of steel he uses. You might also check out Harry Strassil over in the neanders forum (also a blacksmith). The stuff blacksmiths, used to make (lot of iron), could have been remade (I believe), or the metal, melted down to remake. Not sure how modern materials will/do change this.

And as to blacksmiths lessons, lesson number 1, everything is hot.
Lesson number 2, if you forget lesson number one, don't b itch.

[Denise Ohio]

You dont recover , ever .. No , I'm not angry or mad, dont take it that way ...

Nope you don't sound angry--more like honest and what you say makes sense.

[Scott T Smith]

Denise, thanks for shaing the poem.

My loss was different than Jack's; I think that it would be much more difficult to lose a home as opposed to a shop.

What hurts most are the things that can't be replaced. There was a hand tooled saddle in my workshop that belonged to my best friend. He had had it made for him about 40 years before by an old Texas saddlemaker, and it was on "permanent loan" to me. My friend died about two months after the fire, and I probably miss that saddle more than anything else that was lost in the fire.

When we're done with the active portion of our lives, what remains are our memories. In some instances, possessions are tangible reminders of our memories, and this is part of the devastation of losing them.

In terms of a workshop, there is also a degree of independence that's lost. Our shops allow us to do things for ourselves, as opposed to being dependent upon others to do them for us. For many, losing tools equates into losing independence.

What's harder to describe is the suddenness and subconscious worry that takes place afterward. I did not sleep well for months afterward, and would wake up several times in the night and not get back to sleep until I had visually checked my other buildings on the farm to make sure that they were ok.

I would probably feel different if I had "done something" to cause the loss - at least then I could understand why the fire occurred and rationalize it. But to have it "just happen" without reason is unsettling.

In the end you rationalize that it could have been much worse, and that most everything is replaceable. In terms of personal loss, losing a shop is not in the same league as losing a loved one to disease, an accident, etc. There are many other losses that are much worse, and you recognize that and move forward.

But you still mourn for a while.... the key is to not mourn too long, as it will prevent you from moving on with life.

[Denise Ohio]

The loss of the saddle---I get that.

The insomnia and worry about being safe and able to do for yourself---those are also themes that interest me. I may even go so far as to say that I start with these things that make me brood and go, "hmmm," and find a setting that allows me to explore them.

I wonder if there is a difference between men and women regarding this idea of safety. You know, the getting up in the middle of the night to check things. My mom sued to do that, and still does. My girlfriend does it. It didn't take disaster but the knowledge, as a woman, you feel that no matter how safe you may be, you're never safe enough.

Probably not exclusive to girls or boys, though. Not definitive statements here, I am just musing. I ponder all these things for a long time as I write and rewrite (fifty revisions is not unusual in my case and no, that is not insanity---it's thoroughness).

I suppose, too, that these characters, facing exactly the emotions you describe, may also be oerating out of that fear of what happens if you are too ill to take care of yourself and must depend on others. It has nothing to do with whether the people who help you want to help, but on you being able to keep that sense of yourself as someone who does things. Who makes things. Useful, beautiful things.

I have quite a bit to think about.

[Jack Dickey]

First off , I dont want anyone to feel sorry for us , we're fine in the end ..

Scott brought out some good points that I know exactly where he's coming from and what he's saying ..

Men and women are different ..

Yeah I cried a bit , aint ashamed to say it ..

We were in a daze for several weeks , night of the living dead daze

But a home is a woman's security blanket , no matter what happens in the world around her , at home she is supposed to be "safe" ..

A fire , you just feel violated , it cant be described .. We were literally homeless with only the clothes on our backs , and the keys to the truck that was parked at the house ..

I think of little things that happened after the fire ..

Wife's sister has a home on our property so we had a place to stay , insurance put a mobile home on our property until the house was built ...

We stayed around the barn from daylight to dark for several days afterwards , people stopping by , and all .. One night , pup was confused , he walked towards the house , and we tried to get him to sisters house , then he just took off running , we couldnt find him anywhere , just out of the blue I hit the ground on my knees , almost in tears " I lost my house , now I lost my dog "

When what little that was left was bulldozed off the hill behind the house , I lost it again , " Dont know what's worse , watching the house burn , or watch it being pushed off the hill "

The night of the fire , I emailed everyone to tell what happened , we finally laid down about 1 am , cell phone rings , not five minits after we lay down , wife says "who on earth wud that be" ? I said before I ever got up to look at the phone " That'll be Tony " (Sydney Australia) , sure nuff , Oz is on the other end "tell me that you're lying mate"

And a hundred other little things I could think of ..

We're still out of whack , we haven't gotten back on a "normal" routine yet ..

[Denise Ohio]

Geez, Jack. Now you got me blubbering like an idiot.

And I don't blubber.

It was the dog.

I've got nothing else after that to say, other than thank you for telling me about this.

[Loren Blount]

A question about a shop fire. How did your insurance cover your tools? Were they listed separately on your home owners/renters insurance? If they are in a detached garage does that make a difference? Do they depreciate the value of the machines? What do they do about valuing and replacing items no longer manufactured like Bedrock planes? I am curious because I have built up a sizable investment in my shop over the last 10 years and have just started thinking about what would happen if there was a disaster? I would appreciate some real world experience here, before talking to my insurance agent.

Thanks Loren

[Randal Stevenson]

A question about a shop fire. How did your insurance cover your tools? Were they listed separately on your home owners/renters insurance? If they are in a detached garage does that make a difference? Do they depreciate the value of the machines? What do they do about valuing and replacing items no longer manufactured like Bedrock planes? I am curious because I have built up a sizable investment in my shop over the last 10 years and have just started thinking about what would happen if there was a disaster? I would appreciate some real world experience here, before talking to my insurance agent.

Thanks Loren


The neighbors house was underinsured. I knew what all tools he had, and helped him make a list, and his property, easily surpassed the amount of coverage he had. Now, several people I have talked to, have mentioned that most people are underinsured, as most couldn't afford the insurance that would cover a complete replacement.
As for the machines, I think that would in part, depend on wether you have replacement value insurance or not. For things like your Bedrock planes, or specialty items that are no longer made, you would technically, probably need an apraisal.
Is your detached garage listed separately on your insurance now?
From my mechanics stuff, and a garage board I visit, most homeowners insurance, has a total amount they provide for tools. Anything beyond that, requires separate riders.

[Loren Blount]

I'm not sure if the detached garage/shop is listed separate or not, thats a good point though, and a question I'll be sure to ask. I will also check on the tools cap you mentioned.

Thanks Loren

[Jack Dickey]

My homeowners insurance covers all outbuildings at 10% of the value of the home .. IOW current new house is insured for $165thou , barn wud be $16500 ..

The contents of the house as well as the house were depreciated , we still maxxed out on the house tho' ..

My insurance did not question us about contents and proof of having a particular item , we went room by room and made a list and approximate value for everything .. We had a lot of one off stuff that we couldnt put a value on , but I feel the insurance did us right .. They checked the value of every item and depreciated them based on age of the items .. Some items we made money on , some we lost money on , but in the end we came out way ahead of the actual monetary value of the items ..

My suggestion would be ask your insurance agent a lot of questions , take digital pics of everything and detailed information on each item with approximate value , burn it all to a CDor DVD and store it off premises , as in a safety deposit box .. And keep it updated ..

We got a fantastic sum of money for the house , but if we had actual replacement cost insurance , then they would have paid us what it would have cost to rebuild our house as it was before the fire .. I did not know about this insurance until the adjuster was telling us about it .. I do not know what the extra premium would have been , but we would have gotten almost twice as much money as we got for the house .. Another we didn't have coverage on is , we had a limit of a few hundred dollars on freezer contents , we got it added after the fire , for less than a dollar a month , it covers $500 in the freezer ..

Any questions , feel free to ask them here , and I'll put up what I can tell you ..

[Scott T Smith]

[quote=Jack Dickey;1071699]First off , I dont want anyone to feel sorry for us , we're fine in the end ..

A fire , you just feel violated , it cant be described ..
quote]

Jack, all that I can say is "Amen brother".

On the positive side, the outpouring of support after the fire was tremendous. One of the most uplifting instances were the myriad of volunteers from the NCWoodworkers.net that came out and spent two days helping me sift through the ashes so that all of the remnants could be identified, photographed, and boxed for insurance purposes.

It was a dirty job, but it meant the world to me. Most of these were people that I had not even met; they just cared enough to come out and help.

[Jack Dickey]

Yeah I know about that too , we live out in the country on a major US highway , and are served by a VFD ..

The fire started around 315 friday afternoon , and at dark we had almost $7000 in cash and checks , by Monday it was almost $10,000 .. We got over $3000 from three people we had never seen before , they pulled up , asked my name , pulled out the checkbook and started writing , give me the check and drove off ..

[Scott T Smith]

My homeowners was the same as Jacks - 10% of the main house value for the building. I ended up losing around 50K on the replacement cost, per the insurance companies estimate.

Fortunately, I had replacement cost coverage on the contents, and the company has been great to work with. The way that it works is that I will receive a depreciated value for the tools, and if I replace them I'll get full replacement cost.

[Jack Dickey]

My contents coverage was the same as yours ..

And they even allowed us to stay with them they didnt drop us likea hot potato ..