Shaper cutters, flooring cutters, and check my routine

[Mark Bolton]

Posted a bit back looking for overall info on shaper cutters and also flooring sets. We are getting ready to run the first batch of flooring (approx. 240sq').

I have yet to order a set of cutters but I have to tomorrow. I am leaning towards the Amana SC450 set for 162.50 plus I have to order a 3/4" spindle (only have 1 1/4") putting me at around 250.00 with shipping.

The other option I was looking at was the LRH Magic Shaper head as it has carbide inserts. I think this option would put me closer to $300.00.

I havent had any luck finding a 40mm system that offers a flooring set in carbide. I am thinking one of these heads in in the future which has me shying away from the LRH option.

I was also going to call Byrd as I havent been able to make any sense of their site but they offer several flooring cutters. While I think this will be an occasional thing for us I am not sure about spending 800+ for an insert setup.

The routine I am planning is:
Straight-line (panel saw)
Groove (Shaper w/inboard fence)
Rip (panel saw-fence)
Tongue (shaper - outboard fence)

At the moment I am not planning on relieving the back but I havent ruled it out completely. I appreciate all the input on shaper cutters but if anyone has any info with regards to flooring profiles I am missing it would be appreciated.

Mark

[David DeCristoforo]

I would mill a bit differently. Straight lining is OK if you need top but if the stock is fairly straight to begin with, I would simply rip my stock 1/8" over my final dimension. The I would set offset the shaper fences (like a jointer) and run one side taking 1/16" of the extra width. Then I would set up the "outboard" fence to so that milling the second edge would remove the "other extra" 1/16". Needless to say, a power feeder is the key to this not being a PITA and it is required for the second setup where the stock is between the fence and the cutter.

[J.R. Rutter]

I too would straight line and then just rip to 1/8 over, then mill at the shaper. Are you end matching these as well, or going full room width strips?

I don't remember your previous thread, so I'm not sure what you mean by a 40 mm system for flooring. That is a standard moulder spindle diameter, so I bet you could find lots of options if you looked in that direction.

The LRH system is a bit expensive, but versatile. You do lose some of the advantages of insert tooling in that the carbide is brazed to the plugs, so is the same grade as brazed cutters. I have the Magic Moulder and think that it is a well made tool. Unless you really want a 3/4" spindle, I would go for 1-1/4" tooling, even if it was another type of universal head that offered flooring inserts.

[Brad Shipton]

LRH also makes a 3/4" and 1 1/4" bore flooring set. I owned one prior to replacing my shaper. It worked well while I owned it. Any of the braized multi piece sets should be fine.

Most of the NA sets have the nail notch, but I seem to recall finding a few that didnt when I was searching for mine.

I was following a disussion not long ago on the Woodweb and the general consensus was that a braized set such as the one you are looking at is fine for about 2000linft (not sq ft). After that an insert style was suggested. I now use a Weinig flooring insert head bushed down to 1.25".

I agree totally with JR and David. The outboard is a must, particuarily if you are producing wider stock. 5" stock does not flex like the 2 1/4" or 3 1/4" stock. The outboard will lead to straighter stock.

Brad

[Chip Lindley]

Back relief should definately be considered. Will make a huge difference in *fitting* the flooring to your subfloor! HO-made flooring sounds EZ, but in all reality can be very *iffy* unless your operation is quite precise and consistent. Considering the large investment in cutters/spindle/time....buying raw T&G flooring may be a very viable alternative, UNLESS there is something intrinsically special about the wood you will use in that space.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks guys, this is the info I needed, I will try to hit everything in this thread rather than individually.

David,
This material is straight off the mill (KD) rough so I will have to straighten all of it. I follow you on the running of the material which was what I planned though I had thought about milling the groove (first edge) then ripping, then milling the tongue (outboard fence). I didnt know if this would insure a bit straighter end result as some of the material could be 5.5" wide.

We are running this on a new shaper we just setup, 5HP jet (JWS35x5-1 is close to the model number) with a PM PF31 1hp feeder.

With regards to project, this first one is a small L shaped floor. Long leg of the L is 19x7 with the short leg being 9x9. Flooring is running on the 19' length. Its going to be random width. The plan is to run each course at a given width and the we are going to bundle them. So for the 19' run we would have bundles of a given width with the bundle totaling 19' (with a good bit of trim).
Same for the 10' section. We plan to spline right at the inside corner of the L and head out in both directions. I was trying to avoid end matching as some of these lengths will be long (nothing over 9') and without a sliding table on the shaper I am thinking this would be tough. I thought if necessary I could spline the ends with a slotting cutter/router but would rather avoid it if at all possible.

J.R.,
As I mentioned, no end matching if possible. The 40mm system was in reference to an old post I made asking about shaper tooling. Several mentioned the aluminum heads from CMT, Amana, with HSS knives. I had thought about getting one of these in the future which had me shying away from the LRH Magic Molder but now I am rethinking that. I agree with the 1 1/4" tooling but that was where I was coming up short. Barring spending 800$ for a pair of insert heads (400+ each), I am not finding anything much in carbide. Most anything we do is going to be hardwood, hickory, chestnut oak, cherry. Also, I am not sure this will be an ongoing thing so am hesitant to spend 1k in tooling on the fist project.

I just spoke with Wood Tech Tooling in NC and they are getting me pricing on the LRH insert heads, a set of Stark insert heads, and he highly recommended the LRH Magic head for the shaper. He said they were pretty discriminating and found the plugs to be very qood quality. It seems that at 400.00 (head and plugs) and being able to resharpen the plugs this may be the way to go. Then we have a head/carbide to build on. Only detractor is the 1" width.

Brad,
The post you mentioned on woodweb was where I got most of my info, thanks for the great info there. I too have found a lot cutters without the notch. This first run is going to be (guessing) about 1200lf worth of milling (for the 240sq'). After that there is another run a touch larger. This is what has me leaning towards the magic molder now. If I had a little better feeling about this being on going I wouldnt have any problem jumping to the LRH or Stark insert head. I am not sure what the Weinig head costs but I am guessing its right there?

I really appreciate all of your input. The tooling issue is has been the hardest part for me to make a decision on.

Thanks again,
Mark

[Mark Bolton]

Just got off the phone with Byrd, they have a carbide insert flooring head. 289.00/ea including the inserts. 3/4" thick material, 1 1/4" bore.

Mark

[Brad Shipton]

Mark, the Weinig version was around $650 or so by the time I had four of the backers (both profiles), the head, and the four knives. I like that it uses a backer and thin knives. The knives are pretty reasonable. You can change them out and use a different profile. I am sure I can have them grind some diff profiles for it in the future should I ever need, but customs do come with that special one off price tag. You can find the listing on their website, but you would have to phone to order since the bushing is a special order.

If you have enough HP on your shaper and you want to use a higher feed speed, a four knife head may be nice. I used a 2 knife version since I only have 4hp on my shaper. I was able to feed my Jatoba at around 33fpm.

If you do go to back reliefs, there are some nice adjustable heads for this exact purpose. Not cheap, about $1k I think, but if you are making multiple widths it will save you some $$ in the long run. I used an insert head and had a pair of customs knives ground. Lots of other options for the relief cut, but a single pass is important if you want to get the job done.

You should team up with JR. His new moulder will make this stock up in no time.

Brad

[Mark Bolton]

Brad,
I got a price on the Weinig as well. Right around what you said. 510 for the head bushed to 1 1/4", 150 for the cutters and backers.

I am waiting on a call back for some discounted pricing on the Byrd and a couple other options Wood Tech was going to quote me on.

I am just stuck in between this being an ongoing thing or a very rare thing after this one job. If I knew I had a bit more on the horizon this would be a much easier decision.

What I have so far,
LRH Magic head (shaper) approx 400 with the two cutters
LRH insert approx 725
Stark 975
Wienig 660
I think the Byrd is going to come in between 500-600

I am now back to thinking something multi-profile, as long as its carbide, would be better even though a more dedicated cutter would do a better job, run more footage, and may be cheaper to replace knives.

I just cant seem to get my head around 600-800 dollars worth of cutters and head that I will be able to do nothing but flooring with.

Mark

[Brad Shipton]

Mark, I would be tempted to go with a cheapest route first. I fear you might find that it is pretty tough to compete with a professional moulder. After they prep blanks, they feed in one end and out comes flooring. I think with an 7/8 head machine they will size and make stock the same go. They cut out the defect areas with an automatic chop saw, and then someone runs it through a dedicated end matcher. Off to staining, a UV finishing line and into boxes.

You could hire a moulder company to prep the stock and then look after all the install/finishing. I talked to one company and they offered to produce whatever I wanted using pretty much any material I wanted. I was quite surprised how little they wanted for a short run. In the end, the customer gets what they want, great service and a quality product, and you might make a few bucks.

If its a bit of a make work/learning project given the state of the economy, its very doable.

If you do go with a bushed down head you will be able to sell it on the woodweb should you ever want and re-coupe some of your $$. A four knife option may sell faster. When I sold my 3/4" LRH braized set I was pretty much insulted by the guy, but at that point I didnt care.

Just a few more ramblings.

Brad

[Mark Bolton]

Brad,
Thats the route I went. This isnt really something where I am trying to compete with commercial flooring. Nor am I thinking I will be running 1000's of feet regularly. This is kind of a here and there thing for unique situations. That said, if I had a few more unique situations locked down it would be less of an issue.

I went with the LRH Magic shaper head to get started. I was on the fence with the Weinig but felt like if I pulled the pin I would want to go with at least the 2 3/8" tall head which was even more money.

This will get us through these first couple runs. If it feels like it will go on from there we can reevaluate.

Thanks for all the help, it really made the process a lot easier. I cant say enough for the guys at woodtech in NC. The time they spent and information they provided was fantastic.

Thanks again,
Mark

[Peter Quinn]

Don't know if its viable but if I were doing the job I would try to get the material straightlined one side AFTER planing it myself close to final thickness. Even better would be S3S, skim planed both faces, one edge straight, 15/16" or 13/16" thickness depending on your preference. That way you can read the grain easier than in the rough, produce a lot less chips you will then have to deal with, and start at the shaper or TS. It will take minutes to put a straight edge on a pile of boards (you are talking @700-800LF to make your square footage?) with a straight line saw that will take much longer any other way. It gets a little tough trying to get a millwork shop to rip widths for you out of random material to make a random width floor, but pretty much anybody can pick the worst edge and rip it straight, which would speed things up a bit, maybe offer more value to the customer and more money per hour to yourself? I like outsourcing the parts that suck, and straight lining flooring without a straight line saw pretty much fits that description.

Truth is I wouldn't make a floor in my own shop for any reason at this point unless it met two requirements. 1) very special material based on grain, species or color, 2)it was going in my house! Even then I would have to think twice. If it becomes a regular thing it might become time to buy a molder (like a 5 head Weineg or Wadkin or such) or find a custom outfit that has one, or at least get a W&H for those relief cuts.

Looks like you choose your cutters, but here's another option for future thought. http://www.right-tool.com/floorshapcut.html

[Mark Bolton]

Peter,
Had read your posts before about skimming to read grain and put that in my routine. I planned to keep the material as thick as possible which is why I wanted an option for the shaper that would allow for 1" thick material. That said, this material is circle sawn and running a few test boards they will likely finish out at 3/4".

So far the straight lining on the panelsaw has been super fast, I have however been doing it first to get as much material off before planing. Beren trying to get as much of this Hickory out of the process before it hits the planer knives (my weakest link in the chain). This of course may leave my straightened edge less than perfectly square (hundredths of an inch) but didnt think would be a problem.

As for the criteria for running these in the shop. We of course have no intention of trying to run any flooring that can be purchased commercially. At least for us, I think some things factor into our shop a little differently than the average shop. Our location (WV) plays into it in that its a bit of a black hole with regards to outsourcing small odd jobs like this. If you are able to truck the material 3+ hours in any direction maybe, but that doesnt work well for us. Further, being a very small shop with very low overhead makes jobs like this a little more feasible, that said I agree fully that its not a money maker. In our work these elements are always part of a larger project which gives us a bit of buffer. Lastly you touched on another motivator here in that, in the future, we are doing some work in our own house that will take advantage the setup. I am absolutely confident that it will filter out into the rest of our work. Of course future pricing will be set by how these runs go which may snuff it out all together. We'll see.

I had the Freeborn cutters on my list but initially leaned toward an insert setup to have the ability to swap inserts while sharpening, quality of carbide, support, and so on. These were all thing brought up while doing research. In the end, I came to the same conclusion as Brad that the cheapest option was best. If the overwhelming consensus here of never doing this again pans out, we will have the head to expand on.

We have a W&H in the shop for relieving but I am still hoping to avoid it if at all possible.

There is never too much data,
Mark

[Brad Shipton]

Good luck with the project. Be sure to let us know how it goes. I am by no means the most experienced in this discussion. Peter, JR, David and Chip are far more experienced, but I can appreciate your hesitation in this purchase. I have one of those expensive heads sitting in a drawer and it bugs me everytime I look at it.

Nice thing about making it yourself is you can make a boards with double tongues or grooves if you need (can be handy), curved flooring and complex inlays that interlock with the other flooring. The trick is to find someone that wants to pay for that amount of time.

Brad

[Peter Quinn]

Just for comparison or anecdote, my boss was making furniture in his basement shop when a local contractor asked him to run some flooring he was having trouble getting, wide QSWO or something like that. So he pushed it through the shop using a few shapers, a small cutter set, the jointer for straight line with a power feed running up against the fence, etc.

30 years later he runs three 7 Head molders in his flooring 'Department' in which I worked for a year, and does millions a year in custom flooring, everything from ash to bubinga to wenge, to...well you name it, he has made a floor from it. Never know where these projects will take you!

Enjoy the process and 'd love to see some pictures when its all nailed down.