JDS Stopped All Sales to Schools

[Keith Outten]

Last week I tried to order engraving plastic from JDS for a job at CNU...and we were denied. We have been ordering plastic from JDS for about two years however it seems that their owners have recently changed their policy and have decided to refuse orders from any school system.

We have always ordered material from JDS using a credit card so there has never been an issue of them being paid. If their policy change is due to problems being paid by some school systems I can understand that they would refuse to serve customers that are slow to pay, but certainly not those of us who pay by credit card on the spot.

Shame on JDS for punishing good customers!
Johnson Plastics was happy to take my order and they will get all of the business from my personal sign shop in the future.
.

[Angus Hines]

And Larry at Hansen Supply (http://www.hansensupply.com/Engraving-Plastic)

And if you have to have a piece of plastic there's always Howard.......LOL:rolleyes:

[Steve Clarkson]

No explanation why? That's a strange policy decision......

[Uma Duffy]

Could it be that they restrict sales to resellers?

[George Brown]

Well, a company that refuses any sales deserves not to get any in the future.

[Scott Shepherd]

Didn't we just have a long discussion about how it wasn't right to say things like this on this forum? :D

Sorry, couldn't resist. It's been a long day/week and I'm looking for someone to pick on..... where's Frank???? :D

[Keith Outten]

I stated above that we have been buying engravers plastic from JDS for a couple of years without any problems. I was only told that the owners of the company had decided not to do busines with any schools for the remainder of the year. I asked but no other information was offered.

Obviously a privately owned company can select who they will do business with, it is their perogative. I just find it strange that after two years of doing business with JDS they would refuse service without providing any sensible reason.

I'm not bashing the company for poor performance or bad products, I really liked doing business with them.
.

[Joe Pelonio]

Near as I can tell, and my wife works at a school, they have not been as severely impacted by the economy yet as many other public and private
entities that would buy products from JDS. Especially since they are not talking about the reason, it seems likely that there could be litigation involved. Perhaps an accident involving a school's use of one of their products. There must be a good reason for any business to turn down customers these days. Seems, though, that there are ways around it
if you need their products and prices. For example, your business buys them and resells to the school?

[Phil Thien]

In this economy? They won't take a school's order? That's weird.

[Frank Hagan]

I stated above that we have been buying engravers plastic from JDS for a couple of years without any problems. I was only told that the owners of the company had decided not to do busines with any schools for the remainder of the year. I asked but no other information was offered.

Obviously a privately owned company can select who they will do business with, it is their perogative. I just find it strange that after two years of doing business with JDS they would refuse service without providing any sensible reason.

I'm not bashing the company for poor performance or bad products, I really liked doing business with them.
.

Maybe it has something to do with the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act that requires them to certify that all plastics sold for use by children doesn't contain lead or phthalates. A LOT of plastics contain phthalates, and I've heard that the law was signed in late 2008 and effective as of early in Feb. 2009. I haven't confirmed this, but I heard a manufacturer's rep on a radio interview saying that it affects a ton of products, such as baseball gloves, pads for jr. motocross riders, trophy shops, ball manufacturers, etc. The radio show had several calls from importers and manufacturers of things like ball point pens, tee shirts with decals or printing on them, etc. All of them were tossing out their stock.

It has manufacturers and retailers apprehensive because it enables civil litigation (class action lawsuits), and enables states Attorney Generals to sue on behalf of the states, similar to what happened with tobacco.

Anyone making or selling toys, plaques, trophies, apparel ... basically anything made for a child 12 or under ... can be affected by it. The way these things usually work is that the entire chain ... seller, distributor, manufacturer and raw material supplier ... is dragged into the lawsuits that follow.

The CPSC has a info site on it for Small Businesses, Craft and Hobby Shops (http://www.cpsc.gov/ABOUT/Cpsia/smbus/cpsiasbguide.html).

The new lead rules require even shop-made toys to have "third party testing" to ensure the paint doesn't have lead in it. That would include the charitable organizations making wood toys for kids in hospitals; they have to have their toys tested after the paint has been applied to ensure it does not have lead in it.

[Rodne Gold]

Are JDS a wholesaler or a retailer?
We have companies here that try to be both ...bottom line ...we dont deal with anyone that sells to us and into our market. You cannot supply both retailers and the end user..end of story ...its long term economic suicide.

[Keith Outten]

To the best of my knowledge JDS is a wholesaler. That shouldn't eliminate a commercial sign shop from purchasing from them using an account that was setup two years ago.

Frank may have something in that the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act may be an issue but if it affects the entire chain and each is liable how could they limit access to their products to just schools directly. Certainly their commercial customers are offering their products that are produced with JDS plastics to schools.
.

[Dan Hintz]

For example, your business buys them and resells to the school?
Conflict of interest... as an employee of the school system, he cannot sell to the school system through his business.

Of course, it happens all of the time under the radar, so YMMV...

[Stephen Beckham]

Well - if it's lead, then I'm taken aback.... It wasn't yet a year ago when I got a letter from JDS and PDU stating that all of their items have been tested and will continue to be tested for lead.

There's several shake-ups going on in the industry right now - economy??? greed??? safety??? market-share??? :confused:

I'll echo the comment that it's funny at this time to refuse any sells. Especially when there's several suppliers and they all want to move product.

I'm more worried right now about what seems to be a growing sense of back-orders... Are we going back the 70's when nobody stocked stuff? And why is the stuff that sells best for me seem to be the stuff on the chopping block for stocking at the warehouse or being removed from catalogs all together... :eek:

Oh well - keep on keepin' on....:cool:

[Frank Hagan]

To the best of my knowledge JDS is a wholesaler. That shouldn't eliminate a commercial sign shop from purchasing from them using an account that was setup two years ago.

Frank may have something in that the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act may be an issue but if it affects the entire chain and each is liable how could they limit access to their products to just schools directly. Certainly their commercial customers are offering their products that are produced with JDS plastics to schools.


Early in any regulation's life, there are "over-reactions" and those that ignore it. What struck me were the requirements for charities buying lead free paint at Home Depot to coat toys they make for disadvantaged children; its not enough that your paint is lead free, you must have it tested by a "third party lab" to prove it is lead free. The same requirements reportedly apply to phthalates in plastics, although I couldn't find that on the CPSC information site. I did see one association (for helmet manufacturers) who said the phthalates ban applies to anything produced primarily for children that has a at least one dimension 5mm or less that can be put in the mouth ... which they were interpreting to mean straps, buckles and the like on the child bicycle helmets.

In this case, ignoring it can cost you your business, so I suspect we'll see more of what seems like "over-reaction". The off-road industry has said their interpretation is that it has banned any sales of youth motorcycles. Book sellers are saying that books printed before 1985 cannot be distributed to children unless independently tested, which means every book in every library that is for children, printed before 1985, has to be packed away if they are correct.

I suspect we'll get more clarification from Congress later because much of this has to be "unintended consequences". But until then, the possible legal fees when some attorney from the plaintiff's bar decides to sue you could be devastating.

[Larry Bratton]

Since JDS is primarily an awards supplier..I can see right off as to why they would limit direct sales to a school. It would mean a direct conflict with their primary customers who are AWARDS suppliers to the schools. The plastics that they sell would be covered under their policy, although, that's not the product their actually aiming to restrict.

[Scott Shepherd]

Think we can wait to hear the reasoning before we flush JDS down the toilet?

[Joe Pelonio]

Conflict of interest... as an employee of the school system, he cannot sell to the school system through his business.

Of course, it happens all of the time under the radar, so YMMV...
If there's any such law I am not aware of it, in fact my wife is co-owner of our business and we sell to the school where she works all the time.

[Mike Null]

You're absolutely right, Steve. I've sent an email to the president of JDS regarding this issue. I expect some response early next week either here or privately. But believe me, JDS does not make decisions without good cause. They are a first rate company in every respect.

Selling to schools is not likely to be viewed as a conflict with their regular awards and engraving customer base. Also the products in question here are US made and have no lead content.

[Scott Shepherd]

I've actually being have a lot of quality problems with Rowmark that comes from Johnson. I'm getting a lot of coatings that are peeling off with the plastic liner. I've recently switched over to JDS and haven't had a single issue with their Rowmark.

[AL Ursich]

That is REALLY GOOD information to know... THANKS !!!!

AL

[Keith Outten]

Scott,

I certainly don't want to see JDS being flushed down the toilet, as I said I really like doing business with them. On the other hand it seems strange to be able to call them from my shop and I can order anything I want. If I call them from my office at CNU I am banned without explanation other than they are refusing to do business with schools for the rest of this year.

This seems like a skit I would expect to see on SNL :)
.

[Scott Shepherd]

Keith, sorry, my sarcasm was lost in the typed word. There are several threads like this, where people have come on and voiced their experiences with various companies that left them unhappy, and in most of those threads, there are people who think it's absolutely wrong for you to post bad experiences with companies on this forum. See Signwarehouse and Laserbits threads for recent ones.

However, you post something that's just like those, just recounting a customer experience that left you unhappy, and you can hear the crickets chirping from some of those folks.

Nothing wrong with it, it's a forum and you'll have loads of different opinions, I just thought it was unusual for some people to be bashed for recounting their experiences, yet you haven't experienced that same tone in this thread (which is good, and I think it's always appropriate to tell your customer service stories on here).

It'll be interesting to find out the reasoning.

[Doug Griffith]

I'm one of those bashers. I'll admit it.

Personally, I've already winded myself and nobody needs to hear me rehash what I've already said. Plus, it's counterproductive. For example, my posting in a thread about my belief that posting bad threads is bad just perpetuates the bad thread. Boy, I think that was a weird sentence!

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm one of those bashers. I'll admit it.

Personally, I've already winded myself and nobody needs to hear me rehash what I've already said. Plus, it's counterproductive. For example, my posting in a thread about my belief that posting bad threads is bad just perpetuates the bad thread. Boy, I think that was a weird sentence!

Oh just admit it Doug, it's because it was posted by the Big Boss Man ;)

I wasn't picking on any one in particular, just found it interesting how quiet it got :D

In the end, we're all friends and I'd buy any of you a beer or cup of coffee if we were in the same room. :)

[Dave Johnson29]

I'd buy any of you a beer or cup of coffee if we were in the same room. :)

Beer -- and what's that room address?

[Steve Clarkson]

It's probably one of those internet chat rooms.......with virtual beer.........

[Dan Hintz]

Beer -- and what's that room address?
If it's a classroom, Sam Adams and Corona won't sell to us ;-)

[Doug Griffith]

If it's a classroom, Sam Adams and Corona won't sell to us ;-)

Aw, why did you have to mention Sam Adams? Sunday's wine night and I don't mix grains and berries.

[Keith Outten]

Scott,

No problem, we're on the same page :)

Personally I think the truth is always acceptable in conversation as long as you can prove what you say. Facts are generally valuable to most people and that is the reason we are all here....that and the virtual beer :)
.

[Roy Brewer]

Last week I tried to order engraving plastic from JDS for a job at CNU...and we were denied. Keith,

Larry Bratton is correct. This is not a new policy. JDS, to my knowledge, has always had the policy of not selling to the customers/prospects of their niche markets: engravers/trophy shops. They use that in their marketing against a very large (unnamed) competitor whose niche is the schools/hospitals/building maintenance prospects.

I'm very suspicious that CNU slipped in under the "rule" and someone in management finally caught it. Several major suppliers in the trophy business (Freeman Products, Tropar,e.g.) take the same stance; typically the "test" is a reseller's license.

As you may be aware, ARA does not allow membership nor show attendance to schools, goverment(even military). Many (most?) retailers appreciate this stance.

[Bill Cunningham]

JDS may have received a complaint from a LARGE buyer (one that would be hard to ignore) that schools are in fact 'end users' and should not be getting their supplies from a wholesaler.. Maybe it all boils down to 'who' spend the most money.. Until Mike gets a answer to his letter, it's all just speculations as to why.. This may get interesting?

That being said, I have a sign in my shop that says:
FREE BEER
(tomorrow)

[Frank Hagan]

Selling to schools is not likely to be viewed as a conflict with their regular awards and engraving customer base. Also the products in question here are US made and have no lead content.

I'll be interested to see what they say.

Your comment does not apply, however. It doesn't matter if you SAY the plastic doesn't contain lead or phtalates (a chemical found in a LOT of plastics); the law requires you to certify that it does not through third party testing. If you build a wooden toy, paint it with latex paint from Home Depot, you still have to comply with the third party testing to ensure it doesn't contain lead. And any plastic item that can fit into the mouth of a child must be certified, through third party testing, to not contain phtalates.

Most manufacturers are simply tossing out materials intended for children 12 and under and starting over. One telescope manufacturer said they are not going to sell children's telescopes any longer because it would cost them $34,000 per model to conduct the third party testing.

I googled "CPSIA trophies" and got a couple of trophy shops that had warnings about it. I suspect that JDS will have to junk all of their "resin bears" and other awards for kids or provide certification that they don't contain phtalates.

[Randal Stevenson]

First, my apologies as I hope this isn't considered political.

Can anyone give me a link to this lead law your talking about, or tell me the age that is considered a child?

I was talking with one of our customers, who is a local motorcycle/atv dealer, that can no longer sell to those under 18, or over 18 for their kids, due to the law. Yet we wondered how they can buy a car, legally now.

Edit: Found the name of the act elsewhere in this topic. Maybe I should change the way I view threads. Thanks all

[Frank Hagan]

First, my apologies as I hope this isn't considered political.

Can anyone give me a link to this lead law your talking about, or tell me the age that is considered a child?

I was talking with one of our customers, who is a local motorcycle/atv dealer, that can no longer sell to those under 18, or over 18 for their kids, due to the law. Yet we wondered how they can buy a car, legally now.

Edit: Found the name of the act elsewhere in this topic. Maybe I should change the way I view threads. Thanks all

Google "Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act" or CPSIA, followed by the industry you want to see impacted. For instance, "CPSIA motorcycles" will give you a ton of links from associations, etc. The website "overlawyered.com" has a ton of information (the author of that blog writes for Forbes Magazine).

As far as I know, the law says a child is 12 and under. The dealer may know more about it than I do, and it may extend somehow to those over 12, but my understanding is that it is intended to require the independent testing for lead or pthalates in plastics for products "intended primarily for use by children 12 and under".

No one is exempt from it, so anyone here turning tops, making pens, wooden toys, etc. is subject to the law, and must have their product certified lead and pthalate free before giving or selling them for use by children. Pens do not qualify for certification, as any pen with brass in it has lead (Bic pens even fall in this category, as they have bronze material in the tip). Unfininished wood toys, without metal for pinning wheels on, etc., may be OK. But if the wood is finished, the toy must be tested before you can give or sell it for use by children.

[Keith Outten]

Keith,

Larry Bratton is correct. This is not a new policy. JDS, to my knowledge, has always had the policy of not selling to the customers/prospects of their niche markets: engravers/trophy shops. They use that in their marketing against a very large (unnamed) competitor whose niche is the schools/hospitals/building maintenance prospects.

I'm very suspicious that CNU slipped in under the "rule" and someone in management finally caught it. Several major suppliers in the trophy business (Freeman Products, Tropar,e.g.) take the same stance; typically the "test" is a reseller's license.

As you may be aware, ARA does not allow membership nor show attendance to schools, goverment(even military). Many (most?) retailers appreciate this stance.

Roy,

If the test is a re seller's license the University has one, we operate a very large bookstore which sells a host of products other than books. Once we setup our own commercial sign shop the local sign businesses were out of the picture. Certainly we have the same right to produce commercial products, as any other organization or business, and sell them to our customers who visit our store on a daily basis. No other organization is authorized to use the CNU logo so our brand is protected and cannot be used by any outside businesses, there isn't any competition generally speaking as we provide for our own market.

I should think the litmus test would be "Do you operate a commercial sign shop"? The answer in our case is yes, we own the same equipment and provide the same service as many private businesses in the area but we don't enter their market or compete with them. Additionally we don't just buy parts and assemble them as many do in the awards business. The majority of our work is custom fabrication which we purchase only raw materials to support. In a nutshell we don't compete with commercial sign shops, they aren't allowed in our market.

If you are allowed to purchase material and make badges for your employees why can't we do the same? If you are willing to sell us a laser engraver why would we not be able to purchase the materials we need to use the machine?

Most colleges and Universities are purchasing laser engravers and some CNC routers for their own use. Some are using their machines for training and student classes. The idea that we wouldn't be allowed to purchase raw materials is ludicrous, that dog just won't hunt :(
.

[Mike Null]

Frank

My references to lead free material dealt with the plastics Keith was not permitted to order. Both brands are US, and and comply with US regs.

As far as the other things JDS sells I have no idea.

[Pete Simmons]

Frank -

"as any pen with brass in it has lead"


How are lead and brass connected?

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.

Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin.



No lead involved.

[Joe Pelonio]

Keith,

Your situation is the same as many other companies (not schools) that have engraving equipment for internal use, that do not sell the engraved/cut items to anyone but do have a resale license for other things. If this is in fact the reason for no longer selling to you, I wonder if they would deny sales to, for example, Microsoft.

[Dave Johnson29]

"intended primarily for use by children 12 and under".
...
But if the wood is finished, the toy must be tested before you can give or sell it for use by children.


Hi Frank,

Quoting from this .gov site...
http://www.cpsc.gov/ABOUT/Cpsia/smbus/manufacturers.html#q2

"If your products are made for children 12 and under, they will need to be third-party tested."

"If a product is intended for adults or for general use by consumers of all ages, then it is not intended primarily for children."

[Martin Boekers]

I have run it that issue with a couple suppliers over the years.

I run a shop for the government on a military instalation,

The main concern is that I do run a retail shop and not providing inhouse services at cost that would take away work from outside shops that they supply items to also.

I'm sort of in a unique situation here and after I explaine a bit more about what I do and how I sell, usually I get approved. I too pay when I place the order. So money is never an issue.

It just took a week to get approved (and many phones calls) from another major supplier. Sometimes it just takes getting through to the right person that can understand your position and make the call.

Maybe JDS was fielding complaints from engraving and sign shops that were losing business to "inhouse" shops that in effect were taking business away.

With the economic downturn, I can imagine school systems setting up an inhouse shop to save money over outsourcing.

Just a thought.

Marty

[Dan Hintz]

Keith,

Manufacturing products for sale in the bookstore seems fine, but do you give discounts of any kind to orders for university departments? I'm not talking about discounts because the orders are large, I'm talking about discounts simply because they are affiliated with the university. If you give those discounts, then the argument that the shop (i.e., university) is actually the end-user becomes stronger.

[Frank Hagan]

Frank -

"as any pen with brass in it has lead"


How are lead and brass connected?

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.

Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin.



No lead involved.

I'm afraid you're incorrect. All brass in consumer products contains lead, even "lead free brass". IIRC, its from 3 - 8 percent for normal brass and 1 - 2% for "lead free brass". Brass keys, on your key chain, are about 2% lead. See this LA Times Article (http://articles.latimes.com/1999/oct/13/news/mn-21774) on the California state Attorney General suing 13 locksmiths over not warning their customers about the lead content in keys. (California has "Prop. 65", a law similar to the CPSIA that requires everyone to warn consumers of certain detectable elements, including lead). Years ago I worked for a company sued over lead content in brass plumbing fixtures. The brass in the pen tip and barrel contain lead for machinability. The pen is small enough to be put in the mouth of a child. The pen cannot be marketed, sold or given primarily for use by children 12 and under under the new law.



... CPSIA bans ballpoint pens when designed or marketed for persons under 12, because of the irreducible minimum of lead in the mechanisms. Giving the kids adult ballpoint pens is still okay, but shipments of adult pens to, say, middle schools are at the very least under a legal cloud, and it is reasonably clear that pens with kid-oriented decorations on them have become unlawful to sell unless the decorations can be somehow expunged to do away with the kid appeal. A trade group called WIMA, the Writing Implement Manufacturers Association, is now petitioning for an exemption (http://bit.ly/18PUNu) (PDF).
From http://overlawyered.com/2009/02/cpsia-chronicles-february-13/

[Pete Simmons]

Frank - Thanks for the info.


1 - 2% for "lead free brass".

Incrediable!!

I guess you cannot trust anything.

I have always been amused by the use of solder for copper pipe joints in household plumbing.

Anyone aware of any numbers pertaining to lead in our water from that or any move to decrease or stop the use of lead solder?

[Stephen Beckham]

But with all this hoopla about lead - then why does my son's teacher require him to use #2 LEAD pencils only, no pens...


Seriously, heard it on the news this AM that within the last ten years, the average number of kids that had unsafe levels of lead has dropped down to 1-2%. It was over 10% of kids back in the old days.


While I'm on stupid questions - now that they 'got the lead out' why are kids moving slower and gaining more weight today?:D

[Larry Bratton]

Keith:
Is the primary product your interested in buying just engraving plastics? If that be the case, Johnson Plastics would be a better choice anyway, at least as far as choice and depth of stocked product is concerned.

I suspect though that JDS is looking at a specific class of customer and to what their primary business is and CNUs primary business is as an educational institution and not a re-seller or manufacturer of awards or engraving. Subsequently, if they have elected not to sell their product to that customer class, then selling to CNU creates a conflict with their policy. I don't necessarily agree with them but sometimes that's just the way it is.

[Martin Boekers]

Kieth, JDS as well as others believe it's a conflict of thier interest to sell to the school.

I guess a way to see the other side would to consider this;

Say you do a heck of a lot a work for company "A" and one day company "A" decides that they could save much in costs if they set up their own internal shop in their building.

They buy an engraver and contact the wholesaler that you use, the wholesaler says sure we'll sell them product, now you lost a productive client that you made quite a bit of revenue from. Not only that you can't compete for their business anymore because the are paying the same price for materials from your supplier and are the end user and not a reseller.

That would bother me quite a bit and maybe I'd ask the supplier why they sell to an organization that I can't compete fairly for their work.

Hence the end user - reseller conflict


Marty

[Steve Clarkson]

Kieth, JDS as well as others believe it's a conflict of thier interest to sell to the school.


Marty, did JDS tell you that, or are you just assuming?

[Frank Hagan]

Frank - Thanks for the info.


1 - 2% for "lead free brass".

Incrediable!!

I guess you cannot trust anything.

I have always been amused by the use of solder for copper pipe joints in household plumbing.

Anyone aware of any numbers pertaining to lead in our water from that or any move to decrease or stop the use of lead solder?

I think California has banned lead solder, but I don't know if that applies nationally or not. You can google "lead in drinking water" and get several links to the source of it ... see this EPA page (http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw000/lead/lead1.html) for one example (from 1993!) This article from Harvard (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004AGUFMED43A0266G) says lead based solder has been banned since 1980, but I'm not sure if that applies to just MA or the nation.

[Keith Outten]

Lets say you want to build a new workshop and I am a local builder that built your house for you. Should I get upset because the local Borgs sell you lumber so you can build your own shop and I don't get the job, your the end-user? Whats worse you are a one time shop builder.

When we opened our own sign shop we ceased to be a consumer for traditional signs and other engraving services. Therefore the competitive nature of our business became a mute point. From my vantage point we moved up to the next level, equal to any other sign business. How we handle our sales isn't any more relevant than how private sign shops handle theirs.

The same situation exists at NASA Langley and other federal agencies, they purchased their own laser engravers to do their own engraving in house. Nobody is refusing to sell them engraving materials. This is nothing more than a shameful discriminatory practice against educational institutions.

I did contact Johnson Plastics and purchased the material I needed. JP had no problem selling me engraving plastics and I suspect there are other suppliers that will also provide services and supplies for our shop. In fact I would venture that JDS is the only supplier that will refuse to do business with us. Cut your nose off to spite your face seems to apply here :)

I'll ask a pertinent question again....If every laser engraving manufacturer is willing to sell us a laser engraver why would anyone condone the practice of refusing to sell engraving materials to schools? There seems to be a difference of opinion within the industry in that one side will sell to anyone who has money and the other is trying to be protective of a certain sector of the engraving business. Both sides belong to the same industry organizations.
.

[Martin Boekers]

Kieth,

Most of the commercial builders have a commercial account. I can't buy for the same price they do because I'm not reselling it. Just as we have plumbing suppliers in the area that only sell to plumbers etc they won't sell to me as an individual, I have to buy from a reseller. I can't go to local car auctions for dealers unless I have a dealers resale license.

Personal shop is one thing, I would get a discount from say Lowes if I had a resale license. They still sell to me but at a higher markup then they do to resellers. l

Maybe I'm a bit confused here (probably):o Do you make the product and sell it to the school? If so that is different than having the school buy material and machinery then hiring you to do the work and being the end user not reselling it. The key is reselling.

I know I'm not describing this the best way. I'm trying to explain the best I remember that a few sign vendors explained why they couldn't sell to me at the NBM show last year. I wanted to buy signage from them that I couldn't fabricate in shop and some were very firm that I didn't fit their qualifications.

I do manage the shop on an Air Force Base. I do sell retail, I sell to end users, but am limited to clients. I can sell to anyone that has base access. I can't sell to anyone who dosent have access. Some of my clients take work locally off base as it is a competative environment. I do have guidelines I have to follow as for pricing. I can't do products at cost for organizations. The shop has to be fiscally responsible and turn a profit.

I've been here three years and I know somewhere in the past things were different as for as the government goes.

Like I said usually I have to explain it a few times as most suppliers have a different view of what I do. Their main concern is that I prove I am reselling their product.

The company I dealt with a few weeks ago was firm on their commitment not to sell to me until I proved I was a reseller, even though I purchase regularly from most of the major suppliers it was a long discussion:(

It's a "grey" area topic that can stimulate quite a few convesations.
Sort of like "copyrights"

Hope you work it out with JDS I feel they are one of the better companies I have dealt with, they have always provided the best of service and were prompt and fixed things quickly when things went awry!

Marty

[Larry Bratton]

Keith:
JDS is a wholesale distributor. It has been my experience that wholesale distributors can and do choose who they consider to be legitimate customers. For example, a wholesale distributor of doors, windows and mouldings won't sell to anyone but a qualified lumber dealer, i.e. maintains a yard and showroom, has a retail license and sales tax number etc. Although a cabinet shop may have the same qualifications and might be a large user of mouldings, but he might not be considered to be a qualified customer for that particular wholesaler. On the other hand, his competitor across town does sell to cabinet shops and thusly gets the business.

I agree with you that you were already a customer and it was a dirty deal to "cut you off". However, you are free to take your business "across town" to their competitor.(In your case, JSP is the guy across town.) However, they still have the right in a free market to make their policy and enforce same. Over the years, I have run into lots of situations like this I didn't like, more so with manufacturers, but most of the time I had to live with it or find a work around.

[Martin Boekers]

Marty, did JDS tell you that, or are you just assuming?
Opps sorry Steve I didn't mean to talk in JDS's position.

I 'm not the best typer:rolleyes: and it gets me into trouble sometimes.

I should have said JDS and other companies may believe it's a conflict of intrest to sell to schools.

Like I was explaining to Kieth I'm sort of in a unique position where I work.

At last years NBM show I saw some opportunities that I could sell some signage products on base that I couldn't produce here.
Most said they would not sell to the government organizations or schools and institutions, as they were viewed as end users and not resellers. They would guide me to a distributor though that would sell me the products. I told them how could I make money in a markup if I bought it retail? It was hard to get them to understand that I do resell products.

They just didn't want to be a competitor with their clients.

I few years back I worked for a graphics shop creating trade show graphics. The company was a main player in that industry as well as color separations. One year they decided to expand and provide six color press runs, spent over a million on a press. Much of their color seperations work was for clients who owned their own presses. When those clients found out that the company was now competing with them for press work they quit sending the seperation work to them. Needless to say within 2 years they sold the press and then worked hard to get the seperation work back. They relalized it was a bad desicion to compete with your own "bread and butter" clients.

Thanks for keeping me straight!:D

This is a great forum and it's amazing the talents we all share and for the most part really civilized, helpful and informative.

What's your next big project? (I mean FUN project)?


Marty

[Steve Clarkson]

I was just wondering if you had spoken with them, because no one seemed to know for sure what JDS' rationale was.

Working on the mirrors and glass right now.....I think I need to go shopping again.........

[Rick Larson]

I live in Califorina and the wholesale of inflatable toys will not ship hear any more. That cut my income by half. Its about the lead in any toys and how they have to be tested or the can be sued. We need to look out for you children but how far are we going to go.

[Frank Hagan]

I live in Califorina and the wholesale of inflatable toys will not ship hear any more. That cut my income by half. Its about the lead in any toys and how they have to be tested or the can be sued. We need to look out for you children but how far are we going to go.

Lead in the colorants used, and pthalates in the plastics. Pthalates make plastic soft and pliable, so a lot of children's products have them. The science on whether or not they are harmful is much less settled than it is for lead, yet the CPSIA treats them equally.

[Rodne Gold]

We are heading into a world that is so PC its rediculous ...added to that , USA is percieved as a litiguous society.
No one takes responsibility for their own actions any more - scald yourself with a hot kettle and sue the kettle guys for not printing a huge warning "this container has HOT water" in it - doesnt starbucks have a warning on their cups to the same effect.
However - as this depression starts biting , all this PC ness will dilute and start dissapearing when funding dries up and the cost of products that have to be certified rockets.
We all played with toys etc not subjected to all these rigorous restrictions and warnings and most of us seem to be ok??
Back to the school thing...sometimes as a wholesaler and distributor one has to cut small accounts in that 80% of your accounts can often just result in 10% of your business and the costs of maintiang them are way to high.
Years ago , I made a jewellery cleaner - excellent product , I had like 200 pharmacys and jewellers ordering 3-6 bottles at a time , i also had 3 chains of multiple outlet clients ordering 25 000 bottles at a time...I decided to stop selling to the jewellers etc .. it just wasnt worth the admin and delivery costs and i was LOSING money on the small guys.

I must say , I do think refusing to supply without an explanation when you did so before is somewhat of a slap in the face and it would make me change suppliers regardless of what their rationale was.

[Dan Hintz]

USA is percieved as a litiguous society.
No need for guessing... we are! And the only people who like it are the lawyers and the people claiming the money.

However - as this depression starts biting , all this PC ness will dilute and start dissapearing when funding dries up and the cost of products that have to be certified rockets.
I keep telling myself it can only go on for so long... at some point the camel's back has to break, but the stupidity and lack of responsibility continues to grow. On very rare occasions a judge has been known to penalize a plaintiff for bringing a ridiculous case, but often the case is just dismissed immediately with harm (loss of money for defense) only happening to the defendant. The winning party in a case can always ask for an award of costs (legal fees, time off of work, etc.) in an attempt to cut back on this kind of lawsuit, but a big company rarely tries that against a small guy (probably due to the poor perception we'd have of the company, keeping the little guy down with its big money).

And the world keeps spinnin'...

[Albert Nix]

Some folks are going to say that schools are funded by tax payers dollars and there for are competing against them self.