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Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 8:23 AM
My gripe:

You see these posts both in the Deals and Discounts forum, as well as the General Woodworking forum.

WHY??

If someone is looking for old tools, or tools in general, let them do the leg work. You are NOT helping anyone out by screwing over a guy who is looking, on his own, for deals on craigslist, ebay, etc.

Put it this way, if you had your eye on a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy?

End gripe.

Mike Circo
02-25-2009, 8:52 AM
All I can say is....

I totally agree.

:D

Rob Russell
02-25-2009, 9:02 AM
This very topic has been under discussion by the Moderators since yesterday :).

Anthony Anderson
02-25-2009, 9:05 AM
I thought the purpose here, especially at SMC, was to help people, and maybe save them some headache and money. Maybe I just don't understand your complaint. Someone stepped on your toes when you wanted to buy something and you are upset? I have found some great deals/ads posted here and at other forums. Some I have been able to benefit from, and others I was too late to the table. But such is life. Everything works out. It will all be okay. Have a great day, and enjoy life. Regards, Bill

Jerome Hanby
02-25-2009, 9:16 AM
I don't think you or anyone else has a "right" to any of these items. I understand that it's disappointing to be crouched, ready to snap up some item when the seller gets tired of waiting and have someone else willing to pay the asking price jump on it. I think it is a great service to post these deals. I am not going to haunt the Craig's listings for an area five states from me, but there are items that might get me to drive that far if the price was right. If I ever have to sell something on Craigslist, please God post it here, there, and everywhere because I need the money. I'm sure many of the folks selling their goods on Craigs would feel the same.

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 9:25 AM
I thought the purpose here, especially at SMC, was to help people, and maybe save them some headache and money.

Yes


Maybe I just don't understand your complaint.

I thought I did a fair job at expressing it


Someone stepped on your toes when you wanted to buy something and you are upset?
No


I have found some great deals/ads posted here and at other forums. Some I have been able to benefit from, and others I was too late to the table.
Ok. Me too


But such is life. Everything works out. It will all be okay.

??


Have a great day, and enjoy life. Regards, BillSame to you!

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 9:33 AM
I don't think you or anyone else has a "right" to any of these items


I was not implying that


I understand that it's disappointing to be crouched, ready to snap up some item when the seller gets tired of waiting and have someone else willing to pay the asking price jump on it. In general, I agree. I did not make this post for that reason, personally. More on the principal of the matter, that I precieve.


I think it is a great service to post these deals. I am not going to haunt the Craig's listings for an area five states from me, but there are items that might get me to drive that far if the price was right. If I ever have to sell something on Craigslist, please God post it here, there, and everywhere because I need the money. Right, you need the money. And someone looking for a good deal is possibly trying to save some money or buy an item they have had their eye one.


I'm sure many of the folks selling their goods on Craigs would feel the same.While that may be, I am not making this thread to talk about how a seller benefits from it. If they wanted it posted on this site, let THEM do it.

David G Baker
02-25-2009, 9:51 AM
I really appreciate the Ebay and Craigslist postings in the Deals and Discounts forum. It is the place I visit several times a day after I visit the Classifieds forum. I don't have the time to do all of the searching and thank those that help me out in that area. I haven't purchased anything through the Ebay and Craigslist posts but it gives me a chance to buy if I find something I need or want that I would otherwise miss.
PLEASE do not put a stop to the listings.

Eric DeSilva
02-25-2009, 9:53 AM
My gripe:

You see these posts both in the Deals and Discounts forum, as well as the General Woodworking forum.

WHY??

I'd say they belong in the D&D forum, not in Gen'l WW, but I'll give you the counterargument. The market -- buyers and sellers -- for larger machines and uncommon woodworking tools isn't huge. CL generally restricts people to searching one particular geographic area, further limiting the market. A geographically restricted market might be great for selling sports tickets or common stuff like your 14.4 DW cordless drill, but it is my sense that people may be willing to travel much further for a large line boring machine, a large veneering rig, or a 30" bandsaw. That is the kind of stuff that gets posted, not your run of the mill gear.

Second, I probably see SMC more than I look at CL. Hence, having notice that my local CL had a deal in it that was of interest to WW is useful to me. I suspect the same is true of a lot of other SMC'ers. I view this as a benefit.


You are NOT helping anyone out by screwing over a guy who is looking, on his own, for deals on craigslist, ebay, etc.

Put it this way, if you had your eye on a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy?

Not sure I understand this attitude. If I understand your scenario right, you saw the item first, then see it posted on SMC--if it was the other way around, then you got alerted to the ad by SMC, so you benefit, no?

OK, so we presume you saw it first and contacted the seller. Someone else on SMC sees it, and contacts the seller. Every CL seller I've seen has either observed the protocol of first with definite full price offer gets it or first with full price cash in hand gets it. So either you didn't care about it enough to be the first, even though you saw the ad first and have a headstart, or you are PO'd because you are making a less than full price offer and someone else is willing to pay full price?

Sorry, but I have zero sympathy for you.

John Keeton
02-25-2009, 10:02 AM
Alex, I don't want to take sides on this argument. I have previously posted a CL notice on D&D, and another creeker was able to pick up the bargain quickly. I didn't need the item, it was a good deal, and I was glad to help. The buyer expressed his appreciation for that help. Commerce is commerce. If you are surfing CL, find a bargain - buy it and do so quickly. Otherwise, you stand to lose that opportunity to the millions out there who are doing the same thing.

That said, I understand the frustration of losing an opportunity, but everyone here has the same ability to search, surf, and pounce. Maybe I view this community a little differently. Though I have met very few here, I do feel some "common bond" with several members - and, to an extent, with the group at large.

Just my thoughts. It is a big cyber world out there, and there are more people lurking in it than you can imagine. Perhaps we are just helping each other on SMC.

Craig D Peltier
02-25-2009, 10:03 AM
I like the ads. Sounds kind of whiney to me. Maybe if you are so worried about the ads getting up there , you get a program that emails or text you when an item your looking for comes up, or sit at your computer an hit refresh all day on CL.

Brent Leonard
02-25-2009, 10:10 AM
I don't neccesarrily agree or disagree. I understand both points of view and IMO both have a valid argument.

but, if people want to search craigslist, everywhere or just in their state and/or surrounding states......

make your own cutom google search page. It's very easy (anyone can do it), free, and it works very well. No more searching every c-list in each city in the 2 states I look at.

Matt Bickford
02-25-2009, 10:11 AM
Posting such links is what's best for the group as a whole. I don't even think that's arguable. If you get outbid it is by a person that wants it more than you do, as evidenced by his willingness to pay more. The seller of course is happier. The group is happier.

Not wanting this information posted is selfish at its best and collusive at its worst.

Brian Kent
02-25-2009, 10:29 AM
Thanks for starting a good discussion, Alex.

My input - I like the idea of having a deals and discount forum, so that we can link motivated buyers and sellers and give the heads up for stuff we missed.

Brian

Chris Padilla
02-25-2009, 10:30 AM
Have any of you used Snarfer? Google it...download it...and further, google for the Snarfer craigslist plug-in.

Using this FREE RSS reader, you can search any and all of the 100s of local craigslist ad listings.

For example, I'm in the Bay Area. Certainly, I search that locality. I also search Sacramento, San Luis Obispo, Stockton and even around the Denver area where my folks and brother still live.

I also use it to search eBay. Try it...I think you'll like it a lot. It is totally FREE.

Now that said, I still appreciate seeing ads for interesting ww'ing related items even if they are in Indiana (where I scored some nice BE maple veneer) so based on that find, I still like seeing these "finds" posted in the D&D Forum. After all, this is why we created the D&D Forum.

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 10:33 AM
John, I do agree with a lot of what you posted. I have, in the past, posted craigslist deals on the creek for the members to see.

But, over time, I have really changed my mind.

Anyway, it appears I am in the small minority here.

Craig, I already use those search engines, as I have said twice (three times now) I AM NOT posting about an item I "lost".

Whiny and selfish...huh....ok. Not wanting to unnecessarily increase the price of an auction item is selfish?? If so, than YES i guess I would be.

Why would members post items that non-members could see?

Maybe the deals and discounts forum should be viewable by contributing members only? Moreover, why not keep ALL craigslist and ebay/auction posts in the deals and discounts?

Matt Bickford
02-25-2009, 10:49 AM
introducing a person that is willing to pay more is not unneccesarily increasing the price. In fact, keeping that person away is unneccesarily holding the price down. You're hurting the seller and the new buyer (both of which are happier with the introduction of the 3rd party) in order to help a person that shouldn't be receiving this outside help.

I can give multiple reasons why introducing this 3rd party is good. Please do the same for your side of the argument.

We have to assume that you missed out on something. There's no other reason that you'd want them outright banned from the entire forum. If you don't want them clogging up the general woodworking that's one thing, but that's not at all what you suggested.

Rick Moyer
02-25-2009, 10:57 AM
Maybe the deals and discounts forum should be viewable by contributing members only? Moreover, why not keep ALL craigslist and ebay/auction posts in the deals and discounts?


Now THAT seems like the right idea. I didn't agree with what you said in your first post, as I felt, as others did, that you may have had sour grapes over losing an item. if you merely meant to say that these things should not be double posted on both forums, I agree. I think what I quoted you on would be the best approach IMO.

glenn bradley
02-25-2009, 10:57 AM
I really appreciate the Ebay and Craigslist postings in the Deals and Discounts forum. It is the place I visit several times a day after I visit the Classifieds forum. I don't have the time to do all of the searching and thank those that help me out in that area. I haven't purchased anything through the Ebay and Craigslist posts but it gives me a chance to buy if I find something I need or want that I would otherwise miss.
PLEASE do not put a stop to the listings.

I'm with David. I thought part of the reason for this forum was to help each other. I think many folks have been tipped off to items they might otherwise have missed.

If someone was waffling long enough for a post on SMC to be seen by a member, and long enough for that member contact the seller and still even long enough for that member to come to an agreement with the seller, then the waffler just wasn't really that interested; just irritated that someone more decisive got the deal while they were fooling around.

I see the postings as a service.

Rob Russell
02-25-2009, 11:05 AM
Maybe the deals and discounts forum should be viewable by contributing members only?

Interesting suggestion. We're trying to find ways to encourage more people to spend the lousy $6 and become a Contributor.

Most people don't realize it, but visitors consume more than half of the resources at SMC. Those are folks who aren't even registered - just lurking, let alone not contributing information. At the time of this post, we had 271 Members and 372 Visitors active on SMC. That's almost 60% of the server load, bandwidth, etc. being taken by folks who aren't helping SMC grow other than generate contribute page hits.



Moreover, why not keep ALL craigslist and ebay/auction posts in the deals and discounts?

That's part of what the Moderators are discussing.

Matt Bickford
02-25-2009, 11:26 AM
what you quoted is not what he was merely trying to say. Let us not forget what he said as the post progresses.

"Put it this way, if you had your eye on a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy?" -Alex Shanku

Jerome Hanby
02-25-2009, 11:35 AM
Now THAT seems like the right idea. I didn't agree with what you said in your first post, as I felt, as others did, that you may have had sour grapes over losing an item. if you merely meant to say that these things should not be double posted on both forums, I agree. I think what I quoted you on would be the best approach IMO.

Ditto, that sounds exactly right.

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 11:38 AM
what you quoted is not what he was merely trying to say. Let us not forget what he said as the post progresses.

"Put it this way, if you had your eye on a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy?" -Alex Shanku


" Let us not forget what he said as the post progresses." I just made the post an hour ago, its only two pages long...I dont think anyone "forgot" what I have posted.

I still stand by what I originally said, and I found, that the bulk of the responders disagree with me.

I posted some ideas as to a compromise. (Let us not forget that):rolleyes:

Jerome Hanby
02-25-2009, 11:38 AM
I'm with David. I thought part of the reason for this forum was to help each other. I think many folks have been tipped off to items they might otherwise have missed.

If someone was waffling long enough for a post on SMC to be seen by a member, and long enough for that member contact the seller and still even long enough for that member to come to an agreement with the seller, then the waffler just wasn't really that interested; just irritated that someone more decisive got the deal while they were fooling around.

I see the postings as a service.

Posting about CL items can bite you too. I wouldn't think twice about grabbing an item that someone was asking questions about if it was something that had the right mix of want, need, and location.

Chris Padilla
02-25-2009, 11:54 AM
Posting about CL items can bite you too. I wouldn't think twice about grabbing an item that someone was asking questions about if it was something that had the right mix of want, need, and location.

Yes, there is that risk but I think it is small and in the end, if you did that, would anyone really know? The person posting about the craigslist item would just have to assume he wasn't fast enough. Some deals simply don't last...we all know this.

For example, I found a craigslist SawStop TS for sale. I really wanted it. I also found the exact same ad on eBay (guy was hedging his bets putting his ad in two places) but after discussions with LOML, it wasn't going to happen. Only then did I post it in D&D. Yes, I was selfish in not posting about it since I was an interested party at the time but after I became disinterested, I decided to broadcast it.

Now certainly some other Creeker could have found the exact same info I did and he could have made plans to get the saw and my posting to SMC may have messed it up for him as it could have potentially brought in more competition. To that I have to say, "Sorry and oh well!" That scenario may well have happend but I've no clue if it did. I feel that if I can't have the deal, I'd like to try and see if a fellow Creeker might benefit from it. I have a feeling that is likely why most Creekers post such items. That is how I got my veneer from a guy in Indiana...and I'm grateful for the information. :)

Mike Henderson
02-25-2009, 11:58 AM
By posting pointers to the listings, you're helping the person selling the item and you're also helping someone looking for that item who hasn't seen the listing. More information is better. The Internet is an example of that.

Mike

Anthony Anderson
02-25-2009, 12:15 PM
Yes
I thought I did a fair job at expressing it

No

Ok. Me too

??

Same to you!


I understood what you were saying (just a little sarcasm). You are, evidentally, reading, and replying to my post as individual sentences/statements. Read the post as an entire statement, think/reflect about what I said, and things might make more sense for you. (??)
Okay, I will spell a little of it out for you, but not all. Help someone in need, just for the sake of it! Then it will become clearer that you are putting a great amount of energy into something that bears questionable benefit (I think there might be a little chemistry or physics in there somewhere). It will make you feel better. And again, have a great day.

Keith Outten
02-25-2009, 12:19 PM
Why would members post items that non-members could see?

Maybe the deals and discounts forum should be viewable by contributing members only? Moreover, why not keep ALL craigslist and ebay/auction posts in the deals and discounts?

Alex,

This is a good idea, we can adjust the Forum privileges so that visitors cannot view anything in the D&D Forum.

For the record these kinds of posts are not allowed in any of our woodworking forums here. When I find them in the wrong forum I either delete them or move them depending on the subject.

In our Classified Forum we intentionally allowed visitors to not only read posts but they can also view pictures. The reason is that when our Contributors are trying to sell their stuff and we want to help them as much as possible.
.

Anthony Anderson
02-25-2009, 12:28 PM
OOPS! I forgot to contribute this year. So I guess I am one of the freeloaders right now. Sorry Rob. Don't boot me from D&D just yet. Keith and Jackie, contribution will be on its way in the next day or so. But one thing to keep in mind, many people here, in prior years, have contributed more than the $6 requested, so just to merely look at the numbers, and say ["we have this many people supporting SMC, and this number of visitors who don't"], doesn't do justice to the people who tried to help in the past, and may have forgotten to send this year:). And, no, I didn't take it personal. I just thought that there may be others like me.

Mike Goetzke
02-25-2009, 12:29 PM
What bothers me more is when someone lists an item then a few days later when they don't get any takers threaten to post the item on e-bay or CL.

Jeff Mohr
02-25-2009, 12:35 PM
My gripe:

Put it this way, if you had your eye on a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy?



Put it this way, if you were the seller of a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy? :rolleyes:



Personally, I've never bought or sold on CL but you can always flip the coin and hope for the other side.

Eric DeSilva
02-25-2009, 12:35 PM
What bothers me more is when someone lists an item then a few days later when they don't get any takers threaten to post the item on e-bay or CL.

Hmm... Not sure I understand. If its a good price, sounds like someone is trying to give SMC users first dibs by posting here first. But, as a seller, if no one is biting, I don't see the problem with casting the net wider. Giving people at SMC a little forewarning that you are about the cast the net wider -- just in case someone is one the fence -- doesn't seem like a problem either...

What am I missing?

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 12:36 PM
Alex,

This is a good idea, we can adjust the Forum privileges so that visitors cannot view anything in the D&D Forum.

Keith, hopefully, as Rob alluded to in his post above, this will draw in a some revenue for the site.



For the record these kinds of posts are not allowed in any of our woodworking forums here. When I find them in the wrong forum I either delete them or move them depending on the subject.


In our Classified Forum we intentionally allowed visitors to not only read posts but they can also view pictures. The reason is that when our Contributors are trying to sell their stuff and we want to help them as much as possible.
.I do like this setup, too. Just another advantage of being a member/contributor!

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 12:40 PM
Put it this way, if you were the seller of a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy? :rolleyes:



Personally, I've never bought or sold on CL but you can always flip the coin and hope for the other side.


I kind of addressed this when I wrote that

" If they wanted it posted on this site, let THEM do it." (referring to a person selling on craigslist/etc.)

And tying back into the idea of contributors benefits, this would be one of them. The seller would have to contribute to the site to be able to post his item.

David G Baker
02-25-2009, 12:42 PM
Posting all Ebay deals and Craigslist deals in the Deals and Discount Forum is an excellent idea, making it available to contributors only is an idea that I support fully. Sometimes I am a little slow at contributing and knowing that I can't use the Classifieds Forum gets me to contribute sooner, doing the same to the Deals and Discount Forum will more than likely get lurkers to open their wallets.

John Keeton
02-25-2009, 1:10 PM
And tying back into the idea of contributors benefits, this would be one of them. The seller would have to contribute to the site to be able to post his item.
Add me to the list in support of contributor access only to both D&D and the Classified forum. Excellent solution to this issue, and I believe the concerns of Alex would be resolved by this approach - I think.

Rob Russell
02-25-2009, 1:12 PM
Part of the issue is that we have a number of posts where people say "What do you think of this machine?" and post a link to a CL listing.

They're not posting it as a deal, more to get feedback from folks about the machine.

Personally, I still think all such posts should go to D&D because they are short lived. Once the CL (or Ebay) listing goes away, so does msot of the reason for the thread.

Sam Layton
02-25-2009, 1:25 PM
I always look at the deals and discounts. Sometimes I look at the Craigslist postings, sometimes not. I think it is a good thing that one Creeker is trying to help out others. My feeling is if you don't want to look at it, then don't.

Sam

Tom Godley
02-25-2009, 1:28 PM
Alex -- Wow This thread took off. Thankfully, it did not also contain any reference to a Sawstop or the added activity would have brought down the servers :)


I have enjoyed the Cl postings -- I have not bought anything because of a post - but find them interesting as to what is available and the going price.

I have often felt that a way to post current e-bay auctions like old planes/ tools and then provide a way for the better informed members to educate others (like me) on what is actually being auction would be a great addition and if in a members only part of the forum would be a real "value added" incentive to becoming a member.

Same with the deals area -- I have appreciated the postings and have bought quite a few items because of them. This also would be a great "value add" to becoming a member.

The only down side to restricting the postings would be that we may be excluding an deal finding olympian -- and then we all loose.

Maybe we could fund a best deal gets a free membership somehow??

Cliff Rohrabacher
02-25-2009, 2:34 PM
Tempest ~ ~ Teacup

Bruce Page
02-25-2009, 2:45 PM
I didn't read the whole thread but I happen to like the CL postings and see no problem with them.
If someone were to beat me to the item or vice versa, so be it.

Chris Padilla
02-25-2009, 3:29 PM
Overall, I think the *spirit* of posting the CL links is to help a fellow Creeker...at least that is why I have done it.

Rob Russell
02-25-2009, 4:27 PM
Tom,

Again, the problem with ebay or CL posts as the basis for a thread is that the ebay/CL thread page goes away quickly. People don't copy and paste ebay/CL test into the SMC posts and don't upload the pictures as attachments - and probably shouldn't because of copyright/ownership issues.

IMO, that limits the life of the thread to the ebay/CL page's lifespan.

Tom Henry
02-25-2009, 4:32 PM
My vote is for letting them post the links...it helps selling and also helps SMCreekers get a good buy. I look here at least 3x a day for posts.

Robert McGowen
02-25-2009, 5:16 PM
What bothers me more is when someone lists an item then a few days later when they don't get any takers threaten to post the item on e-bay or CL.

I understand every post in this thread except this one. ?????

glenn bradley
02-25-2009, 6:36 PM
Posting about CL items can bite you too. I wouldn't think twice about grabbing an item that someone was asking questions about if it was something that had the right mix of want, need, and location.


Yes, there is that risk but I think it is small and in the end, if you did that, would anyone really know?:)

Ah, here is my problem in understanding what this is all about. The scenario presented is that member "A" asks about a great deal on a Northfield jointer in my area. Instead of answering him, I jump in the car and go buy it right out from under him.

My confusion stems from the fact that I would have never seen this as a possible problem because I would it would never have occurred to me to do something sooo wrong. No one would do that, would they? My upbringing frequently makes me look like a naive goof because I just don't think that way. The fact that this problem exists (or that we think it does) is so sad.

Bruce Page
02-25-2009, 7:22 PM
Ah, here is my problem in understanding what this is all about. The scenario presented is that member "A" asks about a great deal on a Northfield jointer in my area. Instead of answering him, I jump in the car and go buy it right out from under him.

My confusion stems from the fact that I would have never seen this as a possible problem because I would it would never have occurred to me to do something sooo wrong. No one would do that, would they? My upbringing frequently makes me look like a naive goof because I just don't think that way. The fact that this problem exists (or that we think it does) is so sad.

Glenn, I was brought up with the same ethics. I would never knowingly usurp someone like that and I donít think many Creekers would.

Besides, thereíll never be a great deal on a Northfield jointer in Albuquerque anyway. :rolleyes:

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 7:31 PM
Glenn and Bruce: This is part of why I made my original thread. Does it happen? Who knows. But, it is possible.

Plus, like was mentioned a few pages back, making ALL of these adds/post/info requests on advertised machines, ONLY viewable by contributing members would remove the "risk" of a non-member just cruising by and snagging that machine a member was asking about.

Tom Mann
02-25-2009, 7:52 PM
So, here's my view. Worth what you pay for it...Obviously this issue is causing concern as the moderators are discussing it. That should point to the fact that it is a problem and should be corrected....if you want to be democratic, take a polling of the forum members to see if they should be allowed and heed the findings.

However, I don't think they should be posted...If I am the seller and want this august group to have the first chance at it, I would list it here for sale BEFORE I ever list it on Ebay or CL.....I have seen people on other boards take advantage of the group by listing stuff on Ebay and then posting on the board that they "came across this item while searching Ebay" when in actuallity they are the ones selling it. So, multiple people on the board get to bidding the price up, so the SELLER benefits, not the buyer.

Look at it this way, if you post the information, you are helping the SELLER, not the buyer. If I know you are always going to post the information from CL or Ebay searches here, should I bother to look myself? Let somebody else do my work? Sure! I just come here and wait for someone to post something I need based on their searching of the ebay or CL....

If someone is truly looking for something, they should come across the same items anyone does while searching on the internet. In short, I have learned much from the people represented on this board relative to woodworking.....I didn't come to these forums to find a "deal" on ebay or craigslist....I can do that myself as can anyone simply by doing some detective work on their own. Please leave this board to the transfer of information about how to properly work wood......

Tom Godley
02-25-2009, 7:55 PM
I guess I must be missing something -- almost all of the posts in this section have a short life span. But I would agree that those from CL and E-bay are probably a little shorter - not sure why that matters.

It still may be a deal / discount

I also don't see a reason to archive these for any length of time -- They have no value after the fact.

James Jaragosky
02-25-2009, 8:07 PM
My vote is for letting them post the links...it helps selling and also helps SMCreekers get a good buy. I look here at least 3x a day for posts.

I do not see a difference from posting a cl deal from a borg deal; both are short lived and neather has photos attached.
I have always felt that one of the strengths of SMC is the willingness of its membership to help one another, I really do not understand the gripe. If cl listings bother you, dont read the thread.

JohnT Fitzgerald
02-25-2009, 8:43 PM
I find the 'tips' useful. I live in a part of MA that's pretty close to 5 (yes, five) different sections of CL. I am also within driving distance (reasonable) of RI and NH. So I'd have to cruise 7 different CL listings. Also, the MA CL listings tend to have a lot of listings, and I'm sure I'll miss a few.

but the REAL reason I like it? even if someone posts a 'deal' out in CA or AZ, it gives me an idea of what are considered deals and what I should look out for. A SS going for 2500 in AZ? why would I pay 3500 without trying to get him down to fair market value? I can't speak for other parts of the country, but around here, people put stuff on CL for close to retail - if not more! it's a good way to know what the "going rate" is.

and FWIW - if I saw a post and someone here expressed interest, I'd probably feel too guilty to even consider jumping on it w/out at least checking with the other "interested" party....

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 9:10 PM
I do not see a difference from posting a cl deal from a borg deal; both are short lived and neather has photos attached.
I have always felt that one of the strengths of SMC is the willingness of its membership to help one another, I really do not understand the gripe. If cl listings bother you, dont read the thread.

Well, for one, the craigslist/ebay ads have ONE item, the borg has 1000's.


We have gotten to the point in this discussion about possibly ONLY letting members post and view these ads. As it stands now, this is not the case.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with "not reading the threads", as if it were some sort of inconvenience. It has to do with the potential results of what these threads can do.

Rob Damon
02-25-2009, 9:13 PM
We see deals all the time, newspaper, tv, internet.

So if you are really interested in an item and you can't make a well informed decision quickly on your own, why do you need to tell folks where the deal is???

If there is a concern, can't someone just say:

"I found what might be a great deal on a Tannewitz 42" Band Saw. Model R1F, Serial Number 7143 , 15 hp, 50x42" Table, what's a good price and is it a good saw"??

As oppose to saying:

"The Richmond Va craigslist has a listing for a tool and machinery auction site in Richmond, VA. One of the tools is a Tannewitz 42" Band Saw. Model R1F, Serial Number 7143 , 15 hp, 50x42" Table. It will be going up for auction this Saturday Feb. 28 and www.*****andco.com (http://www.*****andco.com). So what would be a good price for it?"

You can certainly ask about a particular tool and pricing without telling where you found it, if you are concerned someone might jump ahead of you in line.

Personnally, I would never steal someone else's find and would only go after it if and only if the person that ask, decided not to buy it.

Rob

P.S. 42" Bandsaw auction is real, huge monster of a saw.

P.S.S. Yes, I contributed $50 last year to SMC and have been lax this year in renewing. It's coming. Why can't SMC be like my magazine subscriptions, 3 years at a shot, so I don't have to think about it. (hmmmm. lets see, your 51 years old, hope to live to 100, 49 years x $6 per year = $294, Keith it would be nice to stroke a $300 check for a SMC lifetime membership :D:D:D:D:D

Bryan Berguson
02-25-2009, 9:14 PM
OOPS! I forgot to contribute this year. So I guess I am one of the freeloaders right now. Sorry Rob. Don't boot me from D&D just yet. Keith and Jackie, contribution will be on its way in the next day or so. But one thing to keep in mind, many people here, in prior years, have contributed more than the $6 requested, so just to merely look at the numbers, and say ["we have this many people supporting SMC, and this number of visitors who don't"], doesn't do justice to the people who tried to help in the past, and may have forgotten to send this year:). And, no, I didn't take it personal. I just thought that there may be others like me.


I know this is getting off the OP and it may have been discussed before but I don't recall it...

Is there any way we could get an automatic "Hey, your $6 contribution is now due" friendly post? This could completely eliminate this problem. Send it out a week or two in advance and contributer status could always be up to date.

Back to topic. I too like the idea keeping the D&D forum for contributors. Good idea!

Bryan

Alex Shanku
02-25-2009, 9:16 PM
I live in a part of MA that's pretty close to 5 (yes, five) different sections of CL. I am also within driving distance (reasonable) of RI and NH. So I'd have to cruise 7 different CL listings. Also, the MA CL listings tend to have a lot of listings, and I'm sure I'll miss a few.




This was one of my original points. Someone who DOES take the time to search all the various cities of craigslist, day after day, looking for a particular item, then finally finds it, has the potential to "lose" the item by someone, with NO ties or need/want for the item, to post it here for all to see.

I guess I, along with a small minority, disagree with this.

btw, try a craigslist search engine, its much more efficient.

Bruce Page
02-25-2009, 9:18 PM
Bryan, click on "User CP" and up near the top of the page it will tell you "Your Contributor Status"

Doug Sewell
02-26-2009, 12:17 AM
So the guy next door tells you about a car for sale in the next town over is it wrong to go and buy it if you want? I don't think so! I have also asked a few questions here and got some much needed help. Is it wrong to get paid for that job when I wasn't sure how to do it and asked somebody here. Should they get a cut? I don't think so! We are all here to help out each other, it the whole point of the Creek. We all want to get things as cheap as we can but also want top dollar when we sell. Nothing wrong with it but we need to meet in the middle at some point. It sucks to have to spend more for a product we want but that seems to be the way it works out all to often. If I have a vote, lets keep it the same as it is. I chose to become a contributer because of what I seen here when I was lurking. If I didn't see what I seen then I wouldn't have signed up. Just my take on things.

Doug

John Shuk
02-26-2009, 7:16 AM
I don't know....is it really that big a deal that some folks get deals without doing alot of work for them?
Or that some seller sells his item more quickly without much work?
There are way more important things to worry about in life.

David Cramer
02-26-2009, 8:18 AM
Number one, I have to get my $$$$$ in soon.

Number two, I have never bought an item off of ebay or craigslist.

Number three, I agree with Alex 100%. It should be a perk:) to contributors to be able to get an early crack at those items posted on SMC that are from craigslist.

Membership shot up after it was pretty much the only way to be able to view pictures and I assume that Alex's suggestion would have the same results, which is a good thing. Obvioulsy, a lot of those new members would not post, but just show up to view items listed for sale, but what can you do? There would still have to be a small financial contribution.

As one poster questioned, is it really a big deal that some folks get deals without doing alot of work for them? No, but I also don't think it's a big deal that Alex brought it up and is trying to better the site and help those who contribute, whether it be through posts, financially, or both. I also don't think Alex is saying that this is an important thing to worry about in life, but just trying to improve:) the site, that's all.

If someone wants to search on craigslist themselves, let'em, they always have that option. But to come here, not make one post or contributor in any way, but only to look for tool deals is............. "not righteous", in my opinion.

Many (mainly a lot of visitors and lurkers) will surely disagree and that is fine, but I'm with Alex on this one and I've never lost anything to anybody on craigslist. Like Glenn Bradley, I guess I was raised differently;).

David

Ben West
02-26-2009, 8:38 AM
I don't have strong feelings about this either way...I see both sides of the issue.

Just FYI -- not to imply we should by copying other forums, but the OWWM forum strictly forbids posting of ebay and CL listings. For those die hard OWWM folks, searching for vintage machinery is a rite of passage, and it violates the spirit of the hobby to bypass that process with forum postings.

Certainly, I think this is a bigger issue for old vintage iron and bigger machinery. Who is going to get too upset about missing a $40 savings on a Dewalt miter saw? Getting beat out on an Oliver jointer though, that one has been hunting out for a few years, might be a different story.

Whichever way we go, I do strongly support the notion that only contributors should be able to view postings of deals on CL or Ebay.

David Christopher
02-26-2009, 9:20 AM
Alex, you have created a monster

Matt Benton
02-26-2009, 9:40 AM
Seems like an example of a misguided sense of entitlement.

My understanding of the function of "Deals and Discounts" is that it is to inform fellow creekers of 'deals and discounts' they might not have known about otherwise.

Maybe we should take a poll. How many times has a creeker purchased an item from a craigslist ad that they first saw here, versus how many times have you lost a craigslist item because it was posted here?

Eric DeSilva
02-26-2009, 10:01 AM
I'm all for more revenue for SMC, but this might cut both ways, since access to a forum is required to post as well. I'd hate to see the number posts about deals and discounts drop (although it might save me some money) because the only people who are allowed to post are contributors. Any idea how many of the D&D posts are typically contributors, versus non-contributors?

Given comments about how D&D is useful to give people pricing information, what about a specific forum -- for contributors -- for used pricing? A "blue book" forum? You could have a thread for particular equipment that people could add too, providing basic information like date of sale, condition, estimated age, extras, and region. People looking for information on whether something is a good deal could be pointed that direction...

Al Willits
02-26-2009, 11:43 AM
Not sure why, but it seems like every time something like this comes up, somebody wants to make it a contributor only section..not sure if that's good or not....

Personally I think it all should go in the D&D section, the post should be required to have item and where it's located in the topic or its deleted or asked to be changed.

I don't see any reason not to post them, we are trying to help our fellow woodworks..right?

Oh..ya multple year contribtions would make me very happy, hard enough to remember to send a check for this old guy, much less one who suffers from CRS...:D

Al

Glenn Clabo
02-26-2009, 11:47 AM
Al...
Recently Aaron sent it up so now you will be notified that your donation is about to expire.

Al Willits
02-26-2009, 12:32 PM
Al...
Recently Aaron sent it up so now you will be notified that your donation is about to expire.


No prob there, it getting the darn check together then getting my but over to the post office...you guys are doing find, its the old fart who's having probs...:D:D

I figured if I did finally wake up long enough to get it together, it'd be nice to get a couple years in anyway, say $25 for two years???

Al

Chris Padilla
02-26-2009, 12:40 PM
No prob there, it getting the darn check together then getting my but over to the post office...you guys are doing find, its the old fart who's having probs...:D:D

I figured if I did finally wake up long enough to get it together, it'd be nice to get a couple years in anyway, say $25 for two years???

Al

Al,

We can certainly take it under advisement and discuss it.

Jim Kountz
02-26-2009, 12:45 PM
My gripe:

You see these posts both in the Deals and Discounts forum, as well as the General Woodworking forum.

WHY??

If someone is looking for old tools, or tools in general, let them do the leg work. You are NOT helping anyone out by screwing over a guy who is looking, on his own, for deals on craigslist, ebay, etc.

Put it this way, if you had your eye on a tool or machine, and someone started posting url's of the add along with pictures, would you be happy?

End gripe.

These types of posts belong in the D and D forum only and if someone is posting them in General Woodworking then yes that should not be tolerated. However the rest of your post sounds like a selfish little rant to be honest and its uncalled for. ALOT of people here like those headsups and I am one of them. To say "let them do their own legwork" is just being self centered and honestly downright unfriendly. You got something against helping others out? Thats all their trying to do is help people who may not have seen the ads themselves at CL or maybe they remembered seeing someone on here asking about a certain tool and they went "hey I'll post this here and maybe ol Bill over in Kentucky will be interested". Its just being neighborly to me. How is it screwing over anyone? Chances are if someone is looking on their own they have found it long before someone here posts about it, then someone else reads it and finds the deal. The item is probably long gone by then but that is NOT the point. Your saying in effect to heck with someone, let them do it themselves and Im saying hey maybe I can help.

Glenn Clabo
02-26-2009, 12:52 PM
One step back...

Time for a group hug!

Jim Kountz
02-26-2009, 1:05 PM
Tom,

Again, the problem with ebay or CL posts as the basis for a thread is that the ebay/CL thread page goes away quickly. People don't copy and paste ebay/CL test into the SMC posts and don't upload the pictures as attachments - and probably shouldn't because of copyright/ownership issues.

IMO, that limits the life of the thread to the ebay/CL page's lifespan.

Im trying hard to understand what the life of the thread has to do with anything. Are you saying that if a threads relevance only lasts a few days or so then it shouldnt be posted? If so then there are hundreds of threads that are shall we say for sake of argument 'time stamped" or relevant to a few days or so. I think personally you're kind of stuck on this "life of thread" thing.

Glenn Clabo
02-26-2009, 1:20 PM
Jim,
SMC was set up to be archived for everyone to be able to use now and in the future. The archive is getting huge and we...the mods and the administrators... have been discussing what is and what isn't worth archiving. One of those things is the short term announcements like CL. Why would we want to keep useless information archived? If we decide to not archive them they need to be in one place for ease of deletion.

Jim Kountz
02-26-2009, 1:26 PM
Jim,
SMC was set up to be archived for everyone to be able to use now and in the future. The archive is getting huge and we...the mods and the administrators... have been discussing what is and what isn't worth archiving. One of those things is the short term announcements like CL. Why would we want to keep useless information archived? If we decide to not archive them they need to be in one place for ease of deletion.

Now that makes perfect sense. To not archive the d&d section is definitely a no brainer, I agree. SO can that be done? Just simply not backup and save that particular forum? And keep in mind im all for NOT allowing these posts in the other forums, that what the d&d is for after all correct?

Rich Lightfoot
02-26-2009, 1:56 PM
For my 'day' job I travel all over the continental US and Canada, usually in a cargo van but also occasionally in 12'-15' trucks. I live in the St Louis area and this week I'm working in downtown LA so I truly appreciate the Craig's list postings in deals and discounts and the classified forums because something might turn up in an area I'm literally just passing through that I would have missed doing my own searches.

I do use some tools to help in searching but in my testing they have missed several listings somebody checking their local listings would have been able to pull up. Not too mention that setting up a search to check every city listing within say 100 miles of I44 from St Louis MO to Oklahoma City OK, within 100 miles of I40 from Oklahoma City OK to Barstow CA is at best a tedious painful process with dubious results.

So if somebody wants to be neighborly and post a good deal they know about in Gallup NM I'm all for it. Even if the creek had nothing else of value to offer, I would have coughed up the $6.00 to support that feature alone.

Ray Dockrey
02-26-2009, 3:54 PM
Jim,
SMC was set up to be archived for everyone to be able to use now and in the future. The archive is getting huge and we...the mods and the administrators... have been discussing what is and what isn't worth archiving. One of those things is the short term announcements like CL. Why would we want to keep useless information archived? If we decide to not archive them they need to be in one place for ease of deletion.I think this is a great idea. I don't think there is anything in the Deals and Discounts that needs to be archived.

Alex Shanku
02-26-2009, 3:55 PM
These types of posts belong in the D and D forum only and if someone is posting them in General Woodworking then yes that should not be tolerated. However the rest of your post sounds like a selfish little rant to be honest and its uncalled for. ALOT of people here like those headsups and I am one of them. To say "let them do their own legwork" is just being self centered and honestly downright unfriendly. You got something against helping others out? Thats all their trying to do is help people who may not have seen the ads themselves at CL or maybe they remembered seeing someone on here asking about a certain tool and they went "hey I'll post this here and maybe ol Bill over in Kentucky will be interested". Its just being neighborly to me. How is it screwing over anyone? Chances are if someone is looking on their own they have found it long before someone here posts about it, then someone else reads it and finds the deal. The item is probably long gone by then but that is NOT the point. Your saying in effect to heck with someone, let them do it themselves and Im saying hey maybe I can help.

Boy, i really dont have the energy to argue about points I made, or were addressed pages earlier.

You got your two cents in, good on you. :rolleyes:

Seems funny that you somehow think it is YOUR place to determining what is called and uncalled for on this forum, considering 60+ posters, as well as 3 or 4 moderators are/were engaged in this discussion.

Chris Padilla
02-26-2009, 4:40 PM
Okay, Folks, we all need to chill a bit here.

There is some excellent discussion but clearly some nerves have been frazzled. I just ask that we all respect each other's viewpoints so that the thread can continue to contribute.

Peace :)

Paul Ryan
02-27-2009, 7:41 AM
Alex's first argument I dont agree with. I really like seeing the craiglist postings it is very helpfuly. But I am completly in favor of his suggestion that we move all craigslist, ebay, and other post to deals and discounts were only contributors can view them. When I first dicovered this forum it only took me a few days to realize $6 is awful cheap for the kind of information and entertainment that this has brought me. I think that is an excellent suggestion.

Bryan Berguson
02-27-2009, 9:25 PM
Bryan, click on "User CP" and up near the top of the page it will tell you "Your Contributor Status"

Thanks Bruce! I learned something new today! :)

Bryan