Sharpening Questions and Waterstone Selection

[Justin Green]

Hi - I'm having trouble sharpening. I'm currently trying scary sharp with a piece of granite, a piece of float glass, and varying grits of sandpaper up through 1500 grit. Each and every old Stanley plane iron I sharpen ends up shaving hair decently, but not spectacularly. However, I cannot get the chisels to shave. I spend about three hours last night on about 8 chisels that I've collected and none of them would end up shaving. Most were a set of Bucks Brothers and there were a few Great Necks and a couple of Stanley 60's. I was able to get a decent hollow grind on the chisels that had chips and dings and went from there through the grits up to 1500. All ended up really shiny and reflective, but dull.

Possible problems?:

1) Technique sucks. I can't get the plane iron bevels flat freehanding them. The bevels are too thin. Need more practice and/or a guide. No matter how hard I try, it also seems like the chisels were rocking just a minute bit, which is probably all it takes to ruin the edge. I did flatten the backs, marking each with a felt tip marker to monitor progress. Eventually I was marking the chisels in between each grit, and still no luck.

2) Not using fine enough sandpaper. The chisels felt like they wanted to shave, but would not. Plane irons will shave every time, although the bevels are rounded (see #1). Both were getting very shiny and reflective in appearance. Basically ended up with shiny, polished, dull blades.

3) Plate glass/granite may not be flat... probably the least of the issues as both surfaces yielded essentially the same results. Plane irons shave, chisels wouldn't.

I suspect #1 is 99% of the problem. In any case, I think I'm going to get a guide and retry scary sharp or use the guide with waterstones. Can't decide between the eclipse-type guide and the MKII, and I can't decide between the Norton/Shapton stones.

I have a set of Marples blue-handled chisels on the way, and don't want to screw them up (even though these are lesser chisels for many folks!).

Suggestions?

[george wilson]

1500 grit is not very fine. I recommebd a 220 grit diamond stone,a White Spyderco ceramic bench stone,and a black Spyderco ceramic stone.

Start with the 220 diamond stone to get rid of little chips or dents in the edge. Then,use the black ceramic,followed by the white ceramic stone. This will bring the edge up to a shine. Finish by stropping on a piece of leather glued to a flat board,with some Simichrome silver polish spread sparingly. Let the strop turn black with use. It only gets finer with use. I use a honing liquid of a cup of water with 5 or 6 drops of dish detergent in it.

The ceramic stones require cleaning of tiny metal chips. Just scrub them with the diamond stone under a faucet. If the white stone arrives with any 'fuzz" on it,scrub it smooth with the diamond stone.

Unless you break the stones,you will be set for life. They will never wear out. I don't care for water stones. They can cost a lot,and always need flattening as they are very soft. You wear them out with flattening.

[John Dykes]

I was frustrated with sharpening and scary sharp for quite a while....

I know I sound like a broken record to many regulars here, but David Charlesworth opened the door to sharpening and thereby this world of handtools.

Here is a primer - http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Learning_Curves/

My recommendation though - rent his sharpening video from Netflix for $10 (or buy it!). Get the eclipse jig - $15. I use Shapton - DC recommends King, but likes Norton as well. A Norton 1000\8000 combination stone runs $100. Flatten the stones w/ a granite plate and sandpaper. Follow the DVD step by step - I promise you, you'll have sharp blades....

[Rick Erickson]

I would recommend buying Rob Cosman's DVD on sharpening. He offers a very simple and very short technique. Since that video he has changed to Shapton stones but the technique remains the same. With a little practice you can resharpen a plane blade in under a minute. I like David Charlesworth but after watching his sharpening DVD it seemed too overwhelming and way too complicated to me. Cosman simplifies the approach and the results are proven.

[Tom Adger]

Get a Veritas Mk II sharpening guide. A lot of the online suppliers have them. Trying to do the bevel by "eye" or "feel" is for those who claim to be expert. I'm not, and I know my limitations. By the way, are you getting the back absolutely flat? I mean 6000 grit waterstone, very shiny, no scratch marks flat? Remember, a cutting edge is very simply the meeting of two flat edges.

[Justin Green]

I highly doubt I'm getting to flat at this stage.

As you can tell, I'm far from an expert. I'm a beginner. Oh, and the Marples arrived today in the nice little wooden box! Brand new, and they don't shave, either out of the box, so this is something I need to learn as quickly as is reasonable!

One more question - the grits seem fairly straightforward between the Norton and the Shaptons. In the Spyderco, there are two whites, fine and ultrafine. What grits are those roughly equivalent to? Also, if I get a DMT diamond stone, would the coarse or extra coarse be the 220 grit?

Thanks to everyone for being patient and taking the time to help out a beginner. I think you guys have me settled on the MKII.

[Craig Johnson]

Hi Justin.
I too am a beginner and just last week sharpened my first chisels and plane blades with scary sharp.
I researched thoroughly before starting to sharpen and I think all of my chisels and blades came out pretty well.
I think the key for me was the Veritas MKII. Very easy to set up and use.
And the micro-bevel is very easy to do as well.
I will add that as I was checking one of the chisels in the guide I scuffed the top of my finger just above the nail. Didnt feel it. But it didnt stop bleeding for a while.
To me that is a good indication of being "scary sharp".

[george wilson]

I think the 220 is regarded as coarse. As for the white stone,I'd just get it,and not the ultra fine,which costs a lot more. I have the white,and after dressing the fuzz off of it,it has been perfectly satisfactory,leaving a polished edge. I don't know the actual grit,but it is perfectly fine. Just go to the strop to get an extra chrome like shine. This system will make your tools so sharp that,if they are decent steel,they will shave your hair without effort. I've used it for many years. Sorry to be vague,I'm just tired out.

If you don't drop the stones and break them,they will last forever.

You can also get a set of ceramic slip stones for sharpening gouges,and other curved shapes. Let me describe how hard these stones are: I can take a white arkansas slipstone,and easily grind it into a special shape on my zirconia belts. Not so with the ceramics. They are harder than the belts. I have been able to sharpen tool steels,like D2,to a razor edge with the ceramic stone setup. Before,I could not quite get the D2 fully razor sharp,because the steel was harder than the stones I was then using.

Do not expect the Marples to be sharp out of the box.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Justin, I have used SS (Scary Sharp) for several years until recently when I switched to Shaptons in order to learn freehand sharpening.

For scary sharp 1500 is not fine enough, you need to at least get in the 4000-6000 range to start shaving. I used the LV micro abrasive sheets (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072). The green sheet is about 9000 grit. They will give you a razor edge to match any other sharpening technique. I also used a honing guide, and I would recommend the same for you as scarysharpening free hand require some skill. Using a honing guide takes the skill factor out of the equation. If you can't wait for shipping through LV you can get higher grit sandpaper from automobile parts stores (Napa, Autozone etc.)

Also, if you decide to go the stones route I would recommend Shapton water stones, simply based on the fact that I have them they are superb in every way. I would suggest you try the a sandpaper in the 6000 grit range before you give up on SS.

[Bob Easton]

Contrary to what others have said, 1500 is more than fine enough to bring an edge to the sharpness level you seek, shaving hair. I can get there with 600 grit sandpaper. Once you get there, you'll probably want sharper, but that's another story.

Since you mention purchasing a guide as a future activity, you must be sharpening freehand. That might be the problem. It could be that unintentional rocking is just enough to dampen the edge.

Get, or make, a guide. I think it will help. You don't have to spend a lot of money. "The Schwarz" talks with great admiration of a very cheap guide that is no longer manufactured. The basic $18 guide is more than enough. Being a skinflint, I'm very happy with Derek Cohen's "10 cent" guide. See it at:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System.html

[george wilson]

Ah,but,the thing is,600 does not continue to be 600 as it is worn down.

[Rick Erickson]

I agree with Zahid. Shapton stones are superb (although very expensive). If you go with Shapton stones also get their lapping plate. DMTs plate isn't recommend on Shapton stones. I would recommend 1000 & 16000 for planes and 1000, 4000, 8000, and 16000 for chisels.

With a little practice you won't need the jig. Try freehand - you will get it.

[Justin Green]

Well, if the paper isn't fine enough, I'm going to try that out first. Did order the MKII jig tonight, just in case! Really thinking about the spyderco ceramic stones as well to complement the lower scary sharp grits...

[Tom Henderson2]

I was frustrated with sharpening and scary sharp for quite a while....

I know I sound like a broken record to many regulars here, but David Charlesworth opened the door to sharpening and thereby this world of handtools.

Here is a primer - http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Learning_Curves/

My recommendation though - rent his sharpening video from Netflix for $10 (or buy it!). Get the eclipse jig - $15. I use Shapton - DC recommends King, but likes Norton as well. A Norton 1000\8000 combination stone runs $100. Flatten the stones w/ a granite plate and sandpaper. Follow the DVD step by step - I promise you, you'll have sharp blades....

+1 on the Charlesworth DVD's (and books). He is thorough, deliberate, and doesn't skip over anything. Follow his method and you will have success.

That doesn't mean other authors or methods won't work; I just found that Charlesworth spelled it all out in a manner that I could follow and emulate from the get-go.

But as in all things, YMMV.

-TH

[Jim Koepke]

One of the problems that can occur with scary sharp is if the paper is not adhered strongly to the base you are using is it will roll up in front of the blade and cause rounding.

Hand sharpening is difficult to learn from the get go. As one who has done a lot of blades by hand, my recent discovery is that it is a lot faster and easier to do with a holder.
Being frugal, my method was to use some holders already in the shop for a power sharpening system. With the adaptation, they work pretty good on stones and would do well on scary sharp. My finding is using the guide is a lot less troublesome and a heck of a lot faster.

Here is a .pdf that, iirc, was posted here before. Not sure where it came from, but it is useful for grit size comparison.

jim

[Wilbur Pan]

Chris Schwarz made that chart, and it's in an Excel spreadsheet on the Popular Woodworking website. I converted it into a PDF a while ago and posted it here.

[Wilbur Pan]

Possible problems?:

1) Technique sucks. I can't get the plane iron bevels flat freehanding them. The bevels are too thin. Need more practice and/or a guide. No matter how hard I try, it also seems like the chisels were rocking just a minute bit, which is probably all it takes to ruin the edge.

As far as the chisels go, and maybe even the plane blades, the bevel probably has a bit of a convexity, which is leading to that rocking feeling that you noticed. And if you noticed it, it's there. Trust your senses.

There are two ways of getting rid of this. The first is to use a grinder and put a hollow grind on the bevel, which will also make it trivial to feel when you have the bevel flat on your sharpening surface.

The second is to use a honing guide of some sort. That Veritas MKII that you just ordered will do just fine.

I'm a big fan of free hand sharpening, and even I use one of the above techniques when I wind up with a tool where I feel like I can't keep the bevel on the waterstone.

[Mark Roderick]

Justin, I have used SS (Scary Sharp) for several years until recently when I switched to Shaptons in order to learn freehand sharpening.

For scary sharp 1500 is not fine enough, you need to at least get in the 4000-6000 range to start shaving. I used the LV micro abrasive sheets (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072). The green sheet is about 9000 grit. They will give you a razor edge to match any other sharpening technique. I also used a honing guide, and I would recommend the same for you as scarysharpening free hand require some skill. Using a honing guide takes the skill factor out of the equation. If you can't wait for shipping through LV you can get higher grit sandpaper from automobile parts stores (Napa, Autozone etc.)

Also, if you decide to go the stones route I would recommend Shapton water stones, simply based on the fact that I have them they are superb in every way. I would suggest you try the a sandpaper in the 6000 grit range before you give up on SS.
No, this is not correct. You're comparing apples to oranges. A 1,500 grit sandpaper is definitely fine enough for scary sharp; it's probably equivalent to a 6,000 grit waterstone or thereabouts. The grit of sandpaper and the grit of waterstones is NOT equivalent. You can find lots of charts online showing the difference.

As to the original question:

1. A beginner should DEFINITELY start out using a honing jig. The Veritas jig is great, the Eclipse will work as well. Do NOT try to start out free-handing. You'll just get frustated. Later, free-handing will come naturally.

2. Pick ONE of the DVDs mentioned, Charlesworth or Cosman. It doesn't matter which, but don't get both! If you practice using ONE method, you will get the results you're looking for almost immediately.

3. It doesn't matter what kind of stones you use. Norton is great, lots of people like the Shaptons, I'm sure King would work also. The DVDs will tell you about flattening the stones and so forth.

If you get ONE of the DVDs and use a honing jig, you'll be fine.

[george wilson]

I never used a honing jig. I don't know if they existed when I started. Free handed will develop naturally if you develop the eye to pay attention to blade angles. That and other abilities you must develop will ultimately determine if you have the intrinsic potential to become a good craftsman.

[Jim Koepke]

Chris Schwarz made that chart, and it's in an Excel spreadsheet on the Popular Woodworking website. I converted it into a PDF a while ago and posted it here.

Thanks for the sitation Wilbur. I was pretty sure of it coming from here some how. If you had put your name somewhere on it, I would have known.

jim

[Jim Newman]

I side sharpen my irons and chisels with scary sharp and it works great! Harrelson Stanley has a video on it you can rent. It is harder to round over the leading edge with this technique. 1500 wet or dry sandpaper is a fine enough grit to make your edge scary, indeed! Good luck and as you see there are as many opinions as there are............people!!!

[Alejandro Balbis]

Please read here http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=ST-MAG.XX&Category_Code=C3M
I have these micro abrasive films and they work quite well, you can use them with water or oil as a lubricant. The big adventage of these films is that the water adheres the film firmly to the glass, the ordinary wet and dry silicon carbide paper do not adhere so well to the glass. get the 15 microns (1000x waterstone), 5 microns (4000x waterstone) and 0.5 microns (around 12000 waterstone). I also have the MKII Veritas guide and the eclipse, I use the Veritas most of the time, I leave the eclipse for cambered blades. I have some waterstones but I do not use them.
Alejandro

[george wilson]

Be advised that if you use oil on a stone,it can be a real pain to go back to water. I know some will argue the point,but I prefer to just use my detergent/water mix. I actually also add a squirt of water based cutting fluid,like Aquacut,but it might be hard to obtain locally,and I don't think it matters an awful lot,anyway.

[Justin Green]

Well, I folded and ordered the two spyderco stones as well. I know have more money invested in sharpening than I do the tools to be sharpened!

[Douglas Brummett]

I think you are getting some kind of weird/conflicting results. Some seem to think the shave test goes out the window once the included angle gets too large (like a bevel up blade ground with a high secondary bevel). Are you sharpening higher than 30 degrees?

One question that hasn't been asked yet...
What's is your goal? Want to shave, get a straight razor. Want to chop mortises, don't sweat any further than 600-1000g. The only reason for ultra-sharp on the chisels is for paring and detail work. For all other types of abuse you will find yourself crying as your perfect shaving hone job gets beat back in the first 5 minutes. Krenov has a good quote on too much time spent sharpening, basically sharpen to the extent you need to do the work at hand.

Same goes for plane irons. A scrub can be put to work right off the grinder. A heavily cambered jack can work quite well only honed up to 1000g. Jointers and smoothers should get more attention with your favorite finish smoother being the one I would fuss over. Shop time is valuable, don't waste too much trying to make your face appear on the back of every metal surface in it :)

If you can get a thin plane iron sharp enough to shave, then a thick blade chisel with a hollow grind should be a breeze. That is a mystery to me. I still struggle keeping my hands steady while doing plane irons. The only time rocking is really an issue is if you don't actually get to the edge you are working. If you work it until you get a burr you should be good to go to the next grit.

[Justin Green]

It's a mystery to me as well. I would think the thicker bevel would be easier to keep flat. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the chisels were kept at a more consistent angle than the plane blades, but the results spoke for themselves...

I played around a little more last night and added some water with a drop of soap to the wet/dry paper and was able to get all of the chisels I played with to shave at 1500. Not shave as nicely as I'd like, but I'm working on that.

I agree that shop time is very valuable. That said, since I'm a beginner, I don't mind fooling around for hours at night for a few weeks or so figuring out this sharpening thing and getting all of the planes in shape, etc. Even if I'm sharpening planes that don't need the same level of attention. I want to have this skill developed before I go drop some money on some nicer wood than pine.

[David Keller NC]

OK, Justin - Forget all of the "which jig" and "which honing stone" for a minute. Doug's trying to diagnose the actual problem, as will I. Some questions/comments:

First comment - do not shave your forearm with a blade (or any other part of your body). The test is deceptive in that it matters how thick your hair is (some of us are more hairy than a gorrilla, some less so), what the blade angle is, and most important of all, it's irrelevant to the need. If you want to figure out how sharp your blade is, get a piece of softwood like white pine or basswood, and try to cut a shaving off of the end of that. If the grain on the end crumbles, the blade is either not sharp, or is at too high of an angle.

I'm serious about this - no beginner should ever be told to try to shave with an unguarded blade. I've seen people take off a large, ugly hunk of skin doing this.

Second Question/Comment - Do you have a grinder, and if so, are you hollow grinding the bevel of the chisels/plane blades? This isn't absolutely necessary to free-hand sharpening, but it makes it worlds easier. If your blade bevels are not hollow ground, then you will have to very precisely hold the chisel/plane blade at an angle slightly steeper than the bevel and put a small micro-bevel on it.

Third Question/Comment - Are you drawing the blade towards you (away from the cutting edge) or pushing it away? Generally speaking, the scary sharp method requires that you pull the blade toward you because otherwise you'll cut the paper, but since you say you're a beginner, I figured it's worth asking.

4th Question/Comment - This is fairly critical. You do need to progress up through the grits to flatten the back of a chisel/plane blade. However, you don't need to do this with the bevel unless it's nicked or really badly scored. In fact, this may be working against you. The more strokes you put on the bevel, the greater the chance that'll you'll heavily round the cutting edge. Even if you get the back and the very tip of the bevel to meet at a sharp corner, you may well have changed the effective cutting angle up into the 50 degree range, and that's not going to feel very sharp, either against your arm or against wood.

Take a magnifying glass and look at the very edge. If you don't have one, go spend $4 at the drugstore, you'll be glad you did. Look closely at the edge - a properly sharpened chisel blade should have one position where the overhead light gets reflected into your face, and then winks out. If you get that shiny, bright line reflected back at you at the very tip over a small range of angles, you've rounded the very edge.

If this is the case, go back to your coarse stone and flatten the bevel all the way to the tip (or if you're grinding, grind it again until you get a burr on the backside) - the bevel angle should measure in the 25 - 30 degree range. Once you've done this, set out your finest sandpaper, hold the bevel down to the paper, and slightly raise the chisel handle, lock your wrists, and move your body back from the legs up to drag the chisel towards you about 6 inches. Unless your sandpaper is very worn, this is all that is necessary to put a very tiny, very bright, reflective and smooth edge on the very tip (confirm this with your magnifying glass).

Now, assuming that you've flattened the back of the chisel correctly all the way out to the edge, you should be able to run your finger from somewhere in the middle of the back off of the edge of the chisel and feel a very small burr. If you don't, it's probable that you didn't quite get the flatness all the way out to the edge.

Nevertheless, the chisel should be quite sharp - perhaps even dangerously so. Let us know how you do.

[Justin Green]

OK, Justin - Forget all of the "which jig" and "which honing stone" for a minute. Doug's trying to diagnose the actual problem, as will I. Some questions/comments:

First comment - do not shave your forearm with a blade (or any other part of your body). The test is deceptive in that it matters how thick your hair is (some of us are more hairy than a gorrilla, some less so), what the blade angle is, and most important of all, it's irrelevant to the need. If you want to figure out how sharp your blade is, get a piece of softwood like white pine or basswood, and try to cut a shaving off of the end of that. If the grain on the end crumbles, the blade is either not sharp, or is at too high of an angle.

I'm serious about this - no beginner should ever be told to try to shave with an unguarded blade. I've seen people take off a large, ugly hunk of skin doing this.

Good advice... I do also play with some of the chisels to see how they pare end grain pine. Some take a bit of force, some actually make curlies out of the end grain.




Second Question/Comment - Do you have a grinder, and if so, are you hollow grinding the bevel of the chisels/plane blades? This isn't absolutely necessary to free-hand sharpening, but it makes it worlds easier. If your blade bevels are not hollow ground, then you will have to very precisely hold the chisel/plane blade at an angle slightly steeper than the bevel and put a small micro-bevel on it.

I do have a grinder, but the tool rests that came with the grinder aren't flat or square. It's a Delta 8" variable speed. Any grinding is done with a cup of water handy for dipping after each pass. As of now, I've tried to hollow grind a few chisels freehand, and this seems to work ok, but the hollow grind isn't too deep as they're 8" wheels. Because the plane blades are so much thinner and the tool rests aren't square, I've not attempted to hollow grind a thin Stanley iron.


Third Question/Comment - Are you drawing the blade towards you (away from the cutting edge) or pushing it away? Generally speaking, the scary sharp method requires that you pull the blade toward you because otherwise you'll cut the paper, but since you say you're a beginner, I figured it's worth asking.

I was careful to pull the blade once I got to the 800 grits and above on both the plane irons and the chisels, for the very reason you mentioned, I would occasionally tear the paper. To be honest, on more coarse grits, I was going back and forth.


4th Question/Comment - This is fairly critical. You do need to progress up through the grits to flatten the back of a chisel/plane blade. However, you don't need to do this with the bevel unless it's nicked or really badly scored. In fact, this may be working against you. The more strokes you put on the bevel, the greater the chance that'll you'll heavily round the cutting edge. Even if you get the back and the very tip of the bevel to meet at a sharp corner, you may well have changed the effective cutting angle up into the 50 degree range, and that's not going to feel very sharp, either against your arm or against wood.

Good point.


Take a magnifying glass and look at the very edge. If you don't have one, go spend $4 at the drugstore, you'll be glad you did. Look closely at the edge - a properly sharpened chisel blade should have one position where the overhead light gets reflected into your face, and then winks out. If you get that shiny, bright line reflected back at you at the very tip over a small range of angles, you've rounded the very edge.

If this is the case, go back to your coarse stone and flatten the bevel all the way to the tip (or if you're grinding, grind it again until you get a burr on the backside) - the bevel angle should measure in the 25 - 30 degree range. Once you've done this, set out your finest sandpaper, hold the bevel down to the paper, and slightly raise the chisel handle, lock your wrists, and move your body back from the legs up to drag the chisel towards you about 6 inches. Unless your sandpaper is very worn, this is all that is necessary to put a very tiny, very bright, reflective and smooth edge on the very tip (confirm this with your magnifying glass).

Now, assuming that you've flattened the back of the chisel correctly all the way out to the edge, you should be able to run your finger from somewhere in the middle of the back off of the edge of the chisel and feel a very small burr. If you don't, it's probable that you didn't quite get the flatness all the way out to the edge.

Nevertheless, the chisel should be quite sharp - perhaps even dangerously so. Let us know how you do.

I'm not getting consistent burrs yet. On some, but not all. I also use a felt tipped marker to mark the back and bevel to see if I'm leaving any spots. I've noticed on many of the chisels that the back is slightly concave, leaving ink in the center of the back, so I continued to flatten until all of the ink was removed.

Thanks for the tip. I'm probably not as frustrated as the initial post sounded, I'm definitely enjoying the learning process and I'm much further along on everything else because of the help I've received here. Thanks to everyone, yet again!

[Zahid Naqvi]

I also use a felt tipped marker to mark the back and bevel to see if I'm leaving any spots. I've noticed on many of the chisels that the back is slightly concave, leaving ink in the center of the back, so I continued to flatten until all of the ink was removed.


No need to do that, all you need is to make sure the area just behind the edge is all flat. Having a concave back on a chisel is a good thing because it requires less work to get the area behind the edge all flat and shiny. This is how the Japanese chisels are made, with a much pronounced concavity at the back.

[Jim Koepke]

Well, I folded and ordered the two spyderco stones as well. I know have more money invested in sharpening than I do the tools to be sharpened!

That is a revolting development indeed. Better hurry up and buy some more tools.

jim

[Justin Green]

Ha! This was after visiting a few auto stores locally and not being able to locate any sandpaper finer than 1500.

As an update, though, went back to the 400 grit and worked the chisel through to 1500 using pull strokes only, and it was sharper. Went and did a #4 smoother blade the same way. It was pretty sharp as well, but I still got tear-out on a red oak scrap that I had laying around. It planes the pine fine, but the oak - not so good.

[David Keller NC]

Justin - Red oak's not what you want to evaluate the sharpness of a blade. The end grain is really hard, so what often happens is the blade chatters a bit on the end grain, which looks like tear out. Also, you want white pine to evaluate this - yellow pine is too hard (same issue as the red oak). If you don't have any, a board of white pine at Home Depot's pretty cheap.

Don't neglect getting a magnifying glass - it's extraordinarily helpful in diagnosing sharpening problems, and it's dirt cheap.

From the standpoint of hollow grinding - an 8" diameter wheel is just fine to give you what you want. I typically use a Tormek, which has about a 10" wheel. All you're looking for here is to give you two points on the bevel to rest the chisel against the surface of your honing medium. And you can start the hone after the grind on your finest stone/grit - I regularly go straight from the Tormek to an 8000 grit waterstone, at least on the bevel.

After about 3 or 4 strokes on the waterstone, I see a very bright, polished line on both the very back of the hollow grind and the edge, which indicates that I've polished those two points.

By the way - the burr left behind after polishing on the 8000 grit stone is very fine indeed. You can feel it with your fingertip, but only just. Generally, I will draw the chisel back from off the 8000 grit stone to across the stone (once only) to remove this burr.

[Justin Green]

I didn't clarify, but I chucked up the oak in the face vise - a piece about 8" long and planed the edge. I did test the chisels on the end grain of my SYP workbench, and they did well, makeing little curly shavings. Pulling back instead of backwards and forwards seems to have solved a lot of the issues. I still am not honing any of the edges because I lack sandpaper fine enough or a stone (on the way). Even the newer model Buck Brothers chisels took a pretty good edge this way and seemed to stay pretty sharp after shaving off some end grain pine.

I did have a magnifying glass at the house (built in light as well!) I had a lot of trouble getting the thing egde to stop reflecting a little strip of light, but I got there on the chisels and plane irons by backing up to 500 grit and starting over. Again, none of these are getting honed at this point while I'm waiting for the finer stones. I do have some green polishing compound I might try on some scrap leather I have just for grins.

Most of the tools I have were bought WELL used and need a lot of work to get the backs flat and polished. Many have deep scratches on the backs, but I'm eventually getting there.

Thanks again for taking the time to give advice. It's very helpful.

[David Keller NC]

"Pulling back instead of backwards and forwards seems to have solved a lot of the issues. I still am not honing any of the edges because I lack sandpaper fine enough or a stone (on the way)."

Indeed, trying to go backwards and forwards is a leading cause of dubbing (rounding over) an edge for a beginner. It's even tougher to do without rounding the edge on sandpaper, though it's still not trivial on a fine-grit honing stone.

By the way - if you have a Woodcraft or other dedicated WW store in your area, they'll have some very fine grit aluminum oxide or silicon carbide sandpaper (both work well, btw, it's just that the paper backing on the silicon carbide will hold together longer when wet). 2000 grit would be more than fine enough for the final honing, though in my shop I would strop an edge after that.

Regarding stropping, be cautious. There's no easier or quicker way to restore an edge to beyond razor sharp in a shop, but there's also no easier way to round the edge, either. Like anything else, it takes a bit of practice.

By the way, if you want the ultimate test of sharpness, a really, really sharp chisel ground at 25 degrees will easily cleanly cut a piece of paper lengthwise with just the weight of the chisel. Sharpness on this scale can't be assessed by light magnification - it takes an electron microscope to see the defects in the edge. While I do occasionally use this test to diagnose how well my sharpening is going, I don't expect to keep something that sharp in the woodshop - it's not necessary even for carving tools (that need to be a lot sharper than a plane blade).

[Jim Koepke]

From the standpoint of hollow grinding - an 8" diameter wheel is just fine to give you what you want. I typically use a Tormek, which has about a 10" wheel. All you're looking for here is to give you two points on the bevel to rest the chisel against the surface of your honing medium. And you can start the hone after the grind on your finest stone/grit - I regularly go straight from the Tormek to an 8000 grit waterstone, at least on the bevel.



Having a hollow grind does make it much easier to "feel" when the tool is properly set on a stone.

A flat bevel requires more psychic abilities it seems. I always look for the fluid squeeze out when working on stones. On water stones, the fluid from in front of the blades will climb the back of the blade. Once this is happening, care is needed to not lift the blade any higher or it will dig into the stone. You probably don't need to ask how I know.


I did have a magnifying glass at the house (built in light as well!) I had a lot of trouble getting the thing egde to stop reflecting a little strip of light, but I got there on the chisels and plane irons by backing up to 500 grit and starting over. Again, none of these are getting honed at this point while I'm waiting for the finer stones. I do have some green polishing compound I might try on some scrap leather I have just for grins.

Thanks again for taking the time to give advice. It's very helpful.

When one teaches, two learn. -- Chinese proverb

The little spider web of reflection is more pronounced on plane blades. This is because if you plane an edge, the most wear is likely to occur in the middle of the blade. With chisels, the action is usually taking place across the whole width of the blade. With the blade being slightly cupped, one has to get past the already sharp areas at the edges that support the blade and keep the center from contacting the abrasive.

There are different theories on how a plane blade should be sharpened. Some like to camber the blades so the center cuts a touch deeper than the edges. This is to prevent leaving tracks at the edge of the blade. Others will just round the corners. This will soften the tracks. Then some will just sharpen them square and make the last smoothing cuts as light as the plane will take and if the lateral adjustment is just a little to one side, the tracks are fairly easy to "cover" by overlapping the next smoothing stroke.

None of these methods are wrong, if they work, they are all right. That is one of the great things about life, there are so many ways to do the same thing.

jim

[george wilson]

Though the white Spyderco stone is only 1200 grit,it seems to behave like a much finer stone. Probably because it is so hard that micro pieces of it do not come loose and get into the slurry like water stones do. Honing with water + a bit of detergent produces a very sharp edge. To polish the edge,you can wipe the stone dry,and polish the edge to a high shine for a few minutes,then,strop sparingly,so as to not round over the edge. I use the hair,or smooth side of calfskin rather than the suede. I think the suede fluffs up as you strop,and rounds over the edge some. The smooth leather does this to a lesser degree. I also change angles when stropping,to "wipe off" the little mountain chain that edges always have,even razor blades. The idea is to smooth over those little mountains as much as possible.

[Steve Friedman]

Indeed, trying to go backwards and forwards is a leading cause of dubbing (rounding over) an edge for a beginner. It's even tougher to do without rounding the edge on sandpaper, though it's still not trivial on a fine-grit honing stone.
David, would you mind explaining this a bit because the directional issue has always confused me when using sandpaper on granite to flatten the back of a blade. I don't seem to have the problem with the bevels, probably because I always use a guide.

But, for flattening the backs, I get inconsistent results and an sure that "dubbing" is the problem. My assumption is that the front portion of a blade is flat when I can feel a wire edge across the entire edge and the scratch pattern (at 10X magnification) is completely uniform. To avoid the dubbing problem, I have tried to use a side-to-side ("side sharpening") motion to flatten the backs, but it seems to take forever to get a wire edge that way. When I get impatient, I will switch to the backward and forward motion (like a "W") that you described above and get a wire edge pretty quickly. But, when I go back to the side sharpening motion, the back is not really flat because I have obviously removed too much material from the very edge. I assume that is dubbing.

Using a skewed side sharpening motion gets me a similar result. I think the back is flat, but when I try the blade in a pure side sharpening motion, I can tell that I have removed too much material from the very edge.

It's possible that my problem is not being patient with the side sharpening motion. If not, then I am confused. I was always taught that sharpening with the edge trailing risks rounding the edge. But, sharpening with the edge leading seems to risk dubbing. Is there something I am missing?

My apologies to the OP for the hijack.

Steve

[Justin Green]

My apologies to the OP for the hijack.

Steve

No worries, I bought the Veritas guide two years ago now. Then my wife and I had a child, and it has yet to get broken in!

[Don Kingston]

on sharpening 101, is the correct way to push the blade or chisel, to pull the blade, or to rub it back and forth in both directions?

[Patrick Tipton]

I never used a honing jig. I don't know if they existed when I started. Free handed will develop naturally if you develop the eye to pay attention to blade angles. That and other abilities you must develop will ultimately determine if you have the intrinsic potential to become a good craftsman.

I agree with this.

Keep at it. I chewed up my first Sorby oval skew trying to figure out how to sharpen it. One day, I "got it". The blade is about 6 inches down from 10 or so. I replaced it with a new one that is full length, sharpened it correctly the first time and now barely touch it to keep it sharp enough to make finish ready cuts on the lathe.

Instead of working on 6 chisels, work one to death. Make it sharp. Try pushing the blade or pulling - opposite of what you are doing. Hold it differently. It isn't hard to free hand a bevel, but you have to learn to feel it. Only one way to do that - practice!

[David Keller NC]

Don - I failed to reply to Steve back in February, but it was the "back & forth vs. pull-toward-you question" that I was referring to. On the bevel side, if you've some practice, pushing and pulling the blade will take off material faster. But it's also an excellent way to dub the edge if you're not careful. For beginners, I suggest that they start at the end of the stone/sandpaper that's farthest away from them, register the bevel (i.e., "feel" the contact across the width of the bevel), lock their wrists, and pull back towards themselves while putting gentle pressure down on the bevel.

This technique seems to have the least chance of creating a rounded bevel (if one has not hollow-ground it).

[Don Kingston]

Thank You Sir.

[Mike Manning]

I think the 220 is regarded as coarse. As for the white stone,I'd just get it,and not the ultra fine,which costs a lot more. I have the white,and after dressing the fuzz off of it,it has been perfectly satisfactory,leaving a polished edge. I don't know the actual grit,but it is perfectly fine. Just go to the strop to get an extra chrome like shine. This system will make your tools so sharp that,if they are decent steel,they will shave your hair without effort. I've used it for many years. Sorry to be vague,I'm just tired out.

If you don't drop the stones and break them,they will last forever.

You can also get a set of ceramic slip stones for sharpening gouges,and other curved shapes. Let me describe how hard these stones are: I can take a white arkansas slipstone,and easily grind it into a special shape on my zirconia belts. Not so with the ceramics. They are harder than the belts. I have been able to sharpen tool steels,like D2,to a razor edge with the ceramic stone setup. Before,I could not quite get the D2 fully razor sharp,because the steel was harder than the stones I was then using.

Do not expect the Marples to be sharp out of the box.

I'm ready to start sharpening my tools (plane irons & chisels) and reading what I can locate on this site and others. I had a question or two regarding George's recommendation of the Spyderco ceramic stones. First, are these ceramic stones good for sharpening the older Stanley Bailey plane irons (pre-WWII and older) as well as say chisels that would include English steel chisels like 1980's Marples and Sorby or American chisels from the 60s & 70s like Buck Bros, Craftsman or the like? Secondly, how does one sharpen a plane iron wider than 2" on a Spyderco ceramic stone (or any narrower stone for that matter) that's only 2" wide? Maybe I need to watch some highly recommended videos on sharpening as that would likely answer my question. Are Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth still considered top-notch methods of sharpening? Any other notables you can view for free on the internet? Thanks!

[Steve Schoene]

My favorite sharpening guru was Maurice Fraser at the Craft Students League in NY.NY. You find a good article at
Toolforworkingwood.com It’s in a “museum” tab. No guide needed with hollow ground bevels. By keeping almost all pressure over the bevel it becomes easy to avoid dubbing or other ills. He liked oil stones but water stones if kept flat or ceramic were ok. He was not at all happy with scary sharp.

[Vincent Tai]

The Spyderco stones will work fine with your any of your steels. Exotic or not. Something laminated with a thick bevel you might want to use a little water and soap, prevent the soft steel from gumming up the stone. In Cosman vids you can see he is holding his tools at a "skew". I am terrible at describing these sorts of things so:

Tool bevel is still flat on the stone. One can even do "side sharpening". My brain is not functioning but imagine edge parallel to side of your stone and sharpening in that position - still going up and down the stone. Also You don't have to even keep the whole bevel on the stone - for plane irons you want a camber with. There's a few threads where Warren explains this method. The iron pictured is more than half an inch wider then the Spyderco stones. Ignore the funky looking hollows. If you need to use a honing guide there are 3 inch wide Spyderco stones available but they are pricey.
400978

https://youtu.be/3KkAlPmcqGA?t=43
https://youtu.be/lhVSMaJxvGg

Brian (also on this forum) sharpening for a bit, good stuff.

Lots of sharpening stuff on the internet. David Weaver's YT channel has some good quick and efficient freehand demos. I think Cosman and Charlesworth are good. What is Top notch is up to you in the end.

[Mike Manning]

Thanks Steve and Vincent. I'll check out the info/vids you suggested. Fyi, being a newbie I figured I should try to use a honing guide to maintain the right angle when sharpening which was the reason for my question regarding trying to sharpen with a guide on a narrower stone. Not getting a clear pic in my head how that can happen unless I'm doing it freehand with the honing guide in my hand along with a plane iron. :-o

[Jessica de Boer]

1. A beginner should DEFINITELY start out using a honing jig. The Veritas jig is great, the Eclipse will work as well. Do NOT try to start out free-handing. You'll just get frustated. Later, free-handing will come naturally.


My dad has never used a jig his entire life. When he taught me how to sharpen a chisel it was only natural for him to teach me free hand sharpening with zero frustration on my part. I found it easy to pick up. The use of caps doesn't make it a fact that applies to everyone.

[Warren Mickley]

When we sharpen a plane iron we let the iron overlap the edge of the stone. Our sharpening strokes are forward and backward, but we gradually move from side to side on the stone so that the entire bevel is sharpened. It also ensures that the entire width of the stone is used for sharpening, evening out the wear on the stone. Having a wide stone and keeping the plane iron or chisel completely on the stone will cause the stone to hollow over time.

Bob Cosman and David Charlesworth are in the business of teaching beginners; their techniques tend to reflect that.

I was trained to sharpen freehand in 1962 and have never used a guide.

[Jim Koepke]

My dad has never used a jig his entire life. When he taught me how to sharpen a chisel it was only natural for him to teach me free hand sharpening with zero frustration on my part. I found it easy to pick up. The use of caps doesn't make it a fact that applies to everyone.

+1 on this. My sharpening has been mostly freehand. My first blade holder for sharpening was one made in shop as an experiment. For me it is easier to refresh a bevel freehand than it is to try to set up a honing jig.

jtk

[Vincent Tai]

Thanks Steve and Vincent. I'll check out the info/vids you suggested. Fyi, being a newbie I figured I should try to use a honing guide to maintain the right angle when sharpening which was the reason for my question regarding trying to sharpen with a guide on a narrower stone. Not getting a clear pic in my head how that can happen unless I'm doing it freehand with the honing guide in my hand along with a plane iron. :-o

Just have the blade off to one side and then the other each stroke, just a little if you need a non camber iron. The Spyderco stones are hard as can be so no odd wear tracks. If you use the eclipse there should be no lopsided wear on the roller either. Even with the MKII it should work. I've used it on my Spydercos before. Or like others here recommend; learn freehand, I got scared of freehand after trying one Guru's technique which did not go well but once I tried it I got it down pretty quick.

[Rob Luter]

I envy those with the confidence (and skill) to sharpen freehand. The only thing I'm comfortable doing freehand is refreshing an edge on a super fine stone or strop. I've had great success with a few strokes on a leather strop periodically. It really stretches out the intervals between visiting my sharpening station.

[Prashun Patel]

Freehanders like me can be zealots - not because it’s superior to a jig - just because it is surprisingly easy to learn. Do it enough and you can actually feel and hear when you are just catching the edge. It is a pleasure.

[Steve Schoene]

Like Patel says. When Maurice Fraser taught neophytes to sharpen if you start with a hollow ground bevel even folks who had NEVER even seen a chisel could come away with a shaving sharp edge and no jig used. The “secret” technique was to only apply force with a finger directly over the bevel. The rest of the hand just supports the weight.

[James Pallas]

I do own jigs and use them at times to change a bevel angle. I free hand in the normal course of work. I can understand why people need a jig I think. When you have worked with angles a lot, woodworking, metal working, drafting etc. you have that angle built into your skills. It becomes easier to judge the angle very close.Now if you get into hairsplitting that's another thing. The 1 or 2 degree micro bevels you'll need your jig. If your a thirty degrees about and a little tip up for a micro bevel person you okay. I will hollow grind on occasion but if the edge is good I just keep touching up a flat bevel.
No harm in jigs or hollow grind if that helps you. Just like magnetic saw guides and the like.
Jim

[Matt Lau]

Most things, I prefer to freehand sharpen.

Microchisels, and thinner small plane blades, I may use the Kell honing jig or a simple eclipse jig.
I've found that it's hard to sharpen a 1 mm chisel when I'm tired.

[Chris Parks]

On reflection and my long journey and many dollars spent I would not start with using a jig because things have changed and sharpening a flat blade is so much easier these days because of it. I would never criticise anyone for using a jig but using the hollow grind/mini bevel method I don't think it is necessary. When I was honing the whole bevel I had to use a jig but the hollow grind has made it redundant.

Go to Derek Cohen's site and look at his hollow grind set up and method, a bench grinder with a suitable tool rest and a CBN wheel does the grunt work and the primary angle is set with that. Place the blade on the stone of choice lift slightly so the heel of the grind is clear of the stone, lock your arms and in effect start rocking back and forth with your whole body. Yes, you may stuff up the first attempts but don't get to carried away and throw the chisel at the wall because you are working such a small bevel any mistakes can be rectified very easily, five seconds on the grinder and you are back at go again. To repair a full rounded bevel caused by bad technique would take a lot longer than that.

The aim here is to get it sharp, the slight lift and the angle that you sharpen at are not critical. You could put a magnetic digital angle indicator on it if you want to get some idea but I never have and my results chop wood nicely and cut fingers equally as well. Go to Derek's site and have a look at his set up, it works and that is all that matters and when you get the practice it is the fastest way to sharpen a blade from scratch.

[Charles Guest]

A hollow grind is a jig. You can hone on the grind, or just use it as a placeholder and do a little lift to hone at a slightly higher angle.

[Chris Parks]

A hollow grind is a jig. You can hone on the grind, or just use it as a placeholder and do a little lift to hone at a slightly higher angle.

Not in my book, a jig is a physical attachment to the blade to ensure a set angle.

[Matt Mattingley]

Not in my book, a jig is a physical attachment to the blade to ensure a set angle.
I’ve Set cutting angles and hone them a long time. Honing is slightly overrated. I’m pretty confident I can grind almost any angle or radius.

In a way, I guess I use jigs. I clamp them in a vice on a particular angle, sometimes using a sign bar, And just grind. I do do a lot of free hand touch up. I do not have one honing machine. My simple thought is sharpen and get back to work, generally using a pedestal grinder.

I do run grinders that take years of experience. Surface, cylindrical and jig. But… In my opinion the quickest touch up A pedestal/bench grinder, with the right wheel for the job.

If I ever need to hone something, I use Norton oil stones. I just don’t like water. Sometimes I use water soluble oil mixture. But… I do like my mineral spirits and oil for cleaning everything steel related.

[Charles Guest]

Not in my book, a jig is a physical attachment to the blade to ensure a set angle.

Suit yourself.