Spiral Cutterhead vs Byrd Shelix

[Erik Christensen]

I am trying to decide what kind of jointer & planer to get. I am leaning towards Grizzly for both. The final choice is if I should spend the extra $$ and time to upgrade them to the Byrd cutter vs getting a machine with the Grizzly spiral head. The Byrd’s claim to fame is having the cutters at an angle and shearing vs. cutting.

Anyone have any hands on experience with both? I plan on keeping these machines for a while so a few extra dollars and a half day in setup time is not that big a deal if there is a noticeable performance difference.

Thanks in advance for all your input.

[Dave Cav]

Actually, Grizzly uses (or has used) both types in their jointers and maybe the planers. I have an 8" G0593 Grizzly jointer and a 15" G0453 Grizzly planer. After I got the planer I upgraded it to a Grizzly carbide head. The planer and jointer use different carbide inserts. The inserts for the jointer have a very slight (150mm radius) on the edge and a tiny radius on the corners. The planer uses dead square inserts with no radius on the corners. They are also different thicknesses and vary in size about 1 mm from each other. This was confirmed by Grizzly's tech support when I ordered replacement inserts for the jointer. When I used Grizzly's p/n, I got the same inserts as used in the planer. Several emails to Grizzly established that they have used two different heads in the jointer. I ended up getting the new jointer inserts from Global Supply in Oregon as they were about 1/2 the cost of the Grizzly inserts and appear to be identical. (If anyone is interested I can get more information on this later.)

From a functional standpoint I don't think it will make any difference in your finished project. I ran some glued up alder workbench legs over the jointer to flatten one side, then ran them through the planer to finish plane them to size and it would be very difficult if not impossible to tell which side was jointed and which planed.

[Shaun Wesley]

Interested in the information you mentioned on where you purchased the replacement inserts if you don't mind posting it.

Thanks

[Dave Cav]

Here's where I got my inserts:

http://globaltooling.bizhosting.com/carbide_insert_knives.html

You will probably find what you're looking for in the "featured items" on the right side of the screen; otherwise, scroll down and you should be able to find about any woodworking carbide insert you need here. They were also very fast. I think I got them within three or four days of ordering.

[Bryan Cowing]

I have had the 12" griz spiral jointer for a few months now. I rate it 10 out of 10.

[Ed Calkins]

I have had the 12" griz spiral jointer for a few months now. I rate it 10 out of 10.

Bryan, which 12" Griz jointer do you have. I am thinking of getting one also. Ed

[David DeCristoforo]

When I get my planer knives sharpened it usually costs me around twenty five bucks for a three knife set. A helical insert head for, say a 15" planer, has what? 98 cutters? At around three bucks a pop? So with four cutting edges, that's working out to around seventy five bucks per "sharpening". I'm just having a tough time seeing how this is economical for a small shop. And it can't possibly take longer to replace three dull knives with sharp ones than it takes to rotate or change a hundred inserts. I totally get the "you don't have to adjust the inserts" thing and I understand that there is a performance gain with the helical head when milling figured wood although this may be somewhat offset by the "ridging" effect typical of most helical insert heads. I am just having a hard time understanding how anyone can justify the cost for a small shop.

[Joe Jensen]

When I get my planer knives sharpened it usually costs me around twenty five bucks for a three knife set. A helical insert head for, say a 15" planer, has what? 98 cutters? At around three bucks a pop? So with four cutting edges, that's working out to around seventy five bucks per "sharpening". I'm just having a tough time seeing how this is economical for a small shop. And it can't possibly take longer to replace three dull knives with sharp ones than it takes to rotate or change a hundred inserts. I totally get the "you don't have to adjust the inserts" thing and I understand that there is a performance gain with the helical head when milling figured wood although this may be somewhat offset by the "ridging" effect typical on most insert heads. I am just having a hard time understanding how anyone can justify the cost for a small shop.

David, the carbide cutter edges last 3-10 times longer than HSS according to posts online. Personally, I had my steel knives sharpened several times a year, and I have had a Byrd in my Planer for 2 years without even turning the carbide chips once. There are four sides.

In my case, the 12" Powermatic head has 72 carbide cutters. They sell for $2.75 each somewhere online (Byrd brand). That's $198 plus shipping. But, say they last 5 times longer, and I get 4 sides. So that's twenty sharpenings. My planer knives here in Phx cost $1.25 per inch, or $45 each time. 20 sharpenings would be at least a couple replacement sets of knives and $900.

[Dave Cav]

David, the carbide cutter edges last 3-10 times longer than HSS according to posts online. Personally, I had my steel knives sharpened several times a year, and I have had a Byrd in my Planer for 2 years without even turning the carbide chips once. There are four sides.

In my case, the 12" Powermatic head has 72 carbide cutters. They sell for $2.75 each somewhere online (Byrd brand). That's $198 plus shipping. But, say they last 5 times longer, and I get 4 sides. So that's twenty sharpenings. My planer knives here in Phx cost $1.25 per inch, or $45 each time. 20 sharpenings would be at least a couple replacement sets of knives and $900.


I'll add my $0.02 worth, too. In addition to what Joe said, damage is a lot easier to deal with. I accidently ran a drywall screw over my carbide jointer head a couple of weeks ago. It badly chipped four inserts. It took about five minutes (if that) to rotate the damaged inserts to bring up a new edge and I was back in business. If it had been HSS knives, it probably would have wrecked the knives and I would have spent an hour or more changing them. Even if I only shifted two of them in opposite directions to temporarily minimize the effect of the damage, it would still take a lot more time. Finally, I seem to find myself working with teak occasionally. On the last project I thicknessed about 30 BF of teak from 1" down to 3/4" and by the time I was finished the planer knives were way past dull. That shouldn't happen with the carbide knives.

[Paul Greathouse]

I recently purchased the Grizzley's 12" Jointer G0609X and 20" Planer G0454Z. I shopped the internet and followed SMC treads for over a year before buying. It was the 2009 price increase that finally made me get off the fence and order my machines before the end of 2008.

I had the same concerns that you did about the Griz head verses the Byrd. After reading several positive posts by fellow Creekers and hearing what the man himself, Shiraz, had to say about the Griz head, it was an easy decision.

I am thoroughly happy with both machines. There are two different Griz heads but my two machines use the same type head, thus, the same carbide inserts also. I have never used a Byrd head but I don't see how it could be good enough to warrant the higher price and and installation time.

My machines give a great finish. The "ridging effect" that David mentioned is really a non-issue. If the ridges are there, I can't detect them and your going to sand anyway not matter what planer you use. I had more of a "ridging effect" issue with my Delta bladed planer when a blade would get chipped. I've run probably a couple hundred board foot of Red Oak through both Griz machines in the last month without any problems.

As for justifying the cost of the helical heads I think Joe nailed it from a cost savings standpoint. But, I also justifed them in a different way, its what I wanted, I could afford them, so I bought them. I didn't want to have to fuss with setting knives anymore and I didn't want to have to bother with taking knives into town for sharpening. Also, there is only one local sharpening shop in my area and if he goes out of business I would be mailing them off to get sharpened and be paying shipping on top of the sharpening cost.

Hope this helped, if your going to order Grizzly machines anyway you might want to take advantage of the free shipping they are offering on some of their equipment. I think the free shipping applies to both the machines I bought.

[Bryan Cowing]

Bryan, which 12" Griz jointer do you have. I am thinking of getting one also. EdI had a buddy bring it back to Canada, the G0609X :D . After all the exchange rate, taxes, it was about $1500 cheaper than the King Industrial version available here.

[David DeCristoforo]

...my planer knives are carbide not HSS. So carbide inserts would not last "3 - 10 times longer". As to damage from hitting bits of metal or anything else that would nick the knives, I just shift one knife a bit to offset the nick.

[Jeff Willard]

I can't speak for the spiral head, but I just dropped a Byrd head in my Powermatic jointer, and couldn't be happier with it. I'm thrilled with the thought of never having to reset knives again, and the fact that I can run a glue line or a piece of plywood over it, if need arises, is just a bonus. As for the finish, I can't complain. It's certainly no worse than straight knives. I haven't given this thing a good workout yet, but nothing indicates that I'll have any issues with it. Everything comes off flat and straight.
As for set up time, it didn't take me much more than an hour to install the new head. Hardest part was pulling the bearings and pressing (pounding:eek:) them onto the new shaft.

[Travis Porter]

The biggest difference I find is not getting the ripples/valleys that you get from a straight knife planer or jointer. For me personally, I do not seem to be able to push a board through the jointer slowly enough to eliminate the ripples. With the shelix I have in my planer, it is quite smooth and requires minimal to no sanding.

Only problem is I have yet to get the thing adjusted right so boards feed through properly.

[Joe Jensen]

...my planer knives are carbide not HSS. So carbide inserts would not last "3 - 10 times longer". As to damage from hitting bits of metal or anything else that would nick the knives, I just shift one knife a bit to offset the nick.

If you are a pro, what's your time worth per hour and how many hours would all the knife setting take. I can't get three 15" carbide knives sharpened for $25 either.

Lastly, everyone always talks about how easy it is to shift a knife. It is if you aren't too fussy about knife setting, but whenever I set knives with a dial indicator, the knive would move up or down several thousands depending on which gib screw I was tightening, and how tight. I was never able to shift a knife, tighten the gib screws, and have the knives stay in great alignment.

Having said that, I like the material coming off the jointer and planer to be tearout free and I don't use a wide planer or drum sander to "level" glue ups. If you have a large wide powerful sander, and you depend on that for flat glue ups, you'd not get as much value.

Me, never having to set the knives ever again is value enough :D

[Joe Jensen]

The biggest difference I find is not getting the ripples/valleys that you get from a straight knife planer or jointer. For me personally, I do not seem to be able to push a board through the jointer slowly enough to eliminate the ripples. With the shelix I have in my planer, it is quite smooth and requires minimal to no sanding.

Only problem is I have yet to get the thing adjusted right so boards feed through properly.

What planer do you have?

[kazek supinski]

i run the byrd heads on my 6" jointer 15" planer and love it the noise it self keeps me happy.as for the cut it is just as good or better then my knives.but it is not cheap to get setup.i would do it again if needed.

[Mike Thomas]

I will add my vote to the spiral headed planers and jointers. I run a 24" straight knife planer, and a 20" spiral head planer. The set up, noise level difference, and length of time between changes are all better with the spiral. The only down side in my opinion is the up front cost.