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Rick Cicciarelli
02-24-2009, 4:06 PM
So I have come to a cross roads in my life and I feel I am being shown the door (to leave) in my current path. One hobby that I've always loved was woodworking, but I am curious how one takes it to the next level and makes a living at it? Do you open a shop and sell fine furniture in a retail setting? Are you doing special order work for folks in a private setting..i.e. carpentry work? Do you make the most from teaching classes? I am just curious how the folks that do this for a living, actually make enough money from it to pay the bills? What are you doing and what have you found to be the most lucrative niche?

keith ouellette
02-24-2009, 4:10 PM
some one on this forum, I don't remember who, used a line from an Clint Eastwood movie to answer a very similar question. The line, to para phrase, was ' starving ain't much of a way to make a living'

David Keller NC
02-24-2009, 4:15 PM
Rick - Keith has it right. It is not possible to make even a very spare living in woodworking, particularly in the current economic environment. Those that actually do make a living at it are either a) primarily teaching, with a bit of furniture making on the side, b) making boxes out of sheet goods - in other words, kitchen cabinets, c) have been doing it for a good 20 years and are quite famous.

There's a fourth category, and that's someone that is very young (early 20's), has no possessions to speak of, no mortgage, no debt, a rented shop, and no expectations.

All of that said, you can certainly make money on the side, but it will not be enough to live on unless you're in an incredibly low cost of living area.

Larry Edgerton
02-24-2009, 4:17 PM
The most lucrative niche? I didn't know there was one of those.:cool:

I suppose it would be different in an urban area, but it has been about 30 years of struggle interspursed with about five good years for me.

Dave Lehnert
02-24-2009, 4:20 PM
Funny I was just thinking last night as I was working on a jewelery box. If I had to charge a hourly rate building that thing I would have to get $800 for it just to make a living. I would be hard pressed to sell it for $80-$100.

keith ouellette
02-24-2009, 4:21 PM
It was one of the many great lines from "The Outlaw Josey Wales" One of my favorites to this day.

I am self employed and wish and pray all the time that I could make a living doing wood working. My dream is to build custom book cases. I have never really made a book case (I'm still new to the hobby).

I know one person who makes his sole living (other than his wife's income) as a wood worker. He is very skilled and has always worked out of his house. He builds anything and everything from furniture to kitchen cabinets. He supplements his income by doing handy man work. he doesn't seem to starve.

I hope you make it work.

Mark Roderick
02-24-2009, 4:26 PM
Win the lottery.

Russ Sears
02-24-2009, 4:33 PM
I'm reminded of a line from Chi Chi Rodgriquez, the golfer. He said "My wife's a wonderful woman. She made me a millionaire. I used to be a multimillionaire".

keith ouellette
02-24-2009, 4:40 PM
Rick; All joking aside i am very interested in this subject.

Do you have other skills, like the friend I mentioned who does handy work, that could help keep you busy.

I forgot to mention that my friend seems to be very fast at everything he does. He is un common that way and it must make a difference.

Dave Cav
02-24-2009, 4:40 PM
I'm one of the guys that went the teaching route. Short story is I traded a 30+ career in facilities management to teach high school shop. Downside is I took about a 40% cut in pay, and I spend six hours a day with 15 year old kids. Upside is a good amount of time off, and I get paid to improve my skills. It's a great job and I'm glad I did it. I plan to do it for the next ten to twelve years or so (assuming the economy doesn't cause the programs to be eliminated) and in the meantime I plan to use my breaks and summers to improve my furniture building skills and build a portfolio that I can use to try to get some custom work and then expand that into a retirement job. I am under no illusions as to being able to support myself by doing woodworking.

Jason Roehl
02-24-2009, 5:01 PM
First, you have to break out of the insane asylum...

frank shic
02-24-2009, 5:31 PM
the most profitable way to make money out of woodworking would be building kitchen cabinets but that requires a good size investment in industrial grade tools as well as experience and then you have to compete with all the existing custom shops and the borgs. the hardest part is finding the right customers (family and friends are not going to pay the bills for long) unless you happen to have really wealthy friends. furniture building doesn't seem to be very profitable unless you build gallery style pieces or reproduction furniture. i'm quite content to let my hobby remain a hobby while i continue contributing to my 401k through my day job!

Mark Bolton
02-24-2009, 5:53 PM
While everything posted (other than the flat out "your nuts") is credible but in my opinion it all depends on a multitude of factors. Far too many to just say it "is" or "isnt" possible.

How much money do you need to earn? Who will be your average customer? Retail? Wholesale? Both? Will you have to rent a space or buy? And many many more.

I think a living could easily be made in woodworking. That said some factors may make it very hard. If you have a 2k/mo mortgage and all the associated geegaws, kids heading for college, no or few tools, limited experience and knowledge, and so forth.

That said, if you were smart enough to live a pay as you go life and arent in hock up to your eyeballs, have reasonable expectations for income, a high tolerance for grief, dont have to pay an arm an a leg for shop space, flexible in your work habbits, I could go on, its absolutely possible. Will you be driving around in a brand new humV, no.

My personal feeling is we are coming into a time when people may have to recalibrate what it is to live the American dream. Whether or not they are able live on what they earn is completely dependent on many of these issues.

I have been getting a general feeling that well crafted items that will last may be on the upswing. Its just a feeling and I dont think it will cut into WM's bottom line but when your working in somewhat of a cottage industry you can make a modest living off the scraps until you get established.

Its definitely not an easy path, but going out on your own doing anything isnt easy.

Mark

Will Blick
02-24-2009, 6:51 PM
Nothing like a strong does of reality!

As often in life, Reality Bites.

When I see how high-volume wood products are made, I can fully understand why they sell so cheap....virtually no labor involved...these machines see and remove defects in the wood, dimension it, sand it, finish it, etc. etc. In the end, you often have a bunch of parts that can be assembled / glued in jigs very quickly... considering machines run 24/7 with no health care or sick time, the cost to make a product is so low vs. a person doing all this the ol fashion way....

or....you have the other end of the market... where more fine art intricate ww products, like jewelry boxes are made by child laborers making pennies.... sure the quality can be better, but its mind boggling this stuff can retail for $30 - $70 on avg. Welcome to the free world...

IMO, these two issues really changed the mindset of "value" of many ww products. Hence why custom made products, such as built-ins, crown molding, etc. will always escape the two issues above, and be done the ol fashion way... So if was to ever consider making a living, that would be the only aveneue, and even then, competition would be high and its hard breaking in any new busienss. Cabinets fall into the 50/50 range, since the BORG's have adapted mass produced ready to install boxes... But anymore, to seel cabinets, it often pays to have a nice showroom like the Borgs where the customer can see everything, touch it, view computer images of slight changes, etc. etc. Not easy for the small timer...

Russ Boyd
02-24-2009, 6:58 PM
I do mostly finish work in new homes. That is kind of woodworking. The good thing is I am on the job and jump in when the people start talking built-ins, etc.. Now that's real woodworking. I also do basements, kitchens etc.. All of these thinks involve woodworking and can lead to the things you really want to do. I don't make a killing, but have been in business for 30 years. Must be doing something right. Now is not a good time, but like others have said, if you are young enough and/or have a low overhead, then you might have a shot. Good luck, Russ

Tony Bilello
02-24-2009, 7:01 PM
I had a custom furniture business. Turns out that the bulk of my income came from cabinet making and furniture restoration. I didn't like either. I wanted to design and build furniture. I sold pieces on a regular basis but if that is all I did , I would have gone under quickly.
People dont really care if its hand made or produced in China. They buy it because they like it. "Hand Crafted" is not really a selling point contrary to popular belief. Most people buy a particular piece because they like it or because it's cheap.
The rare few that make a good living at it are incredible artists. It's kinda like pro sports. What percentage of athletes make it big as compared to all of the wannabe's from High School on up. Maybe one in 10,000?. I dont know it's just a guess. A good amount of custom woodworkers that i know actually building furniture not cabinetry are supported primarily by their spouse's income.
People are paying for an end product and not for your time. If it takes you more than an average 8 hour day to build and finish a table you are losing money. Think what that will cost you in tools. A Stroke sander, edge sander, disk sander, drum saner and a wide belt sander. What about the 2 or 3 table saws?, the big planers, the list goes on.
Some people that piddle from time to time have no idea how long it takes them to make something. When you do it for a living, you find out quickly exactly how long. Oh yea, one more thing, when you are building, who is doing your selling for you, you know, the estimates, the sketches, etc.
Whe you are doing that whop is doing the building? All of this is going on while the rent is still due.
I better stop now, I can go on for ever.
Your are actually competing for dollars not just against other woodworkers. You are competing against a boat, a car downpayment, a ski weekend, a new TV, a gym, a golf course, etc.

Joe Jensen
02-24-2009, 7:09 PM
I've watched this topic for years. From what I've read, $50 an hour is a goal that few attain. There are many who work 70-80 hours a week to net $50-100K a year. Depending on the income level you generate in your prior profession, that may look like a little, or a lot. I will say that doing it as a business requires some critical skills on top of woodworking. A few that come to mind quickly;
1) Sales - sounds like there is a lot of time spent generating business, and this time is not on the clock. If you don't sell, you don't build and you don't get paid. If you are doing kitchens, you need to bid several jobs to get one, and it takes hours of planning and figuring to get a bid done. If you are building for craft shows, you need to spend your weekends at shows selling.
2) Marketing/business/accounting - you need to have these skills or you will go out of business. If you haven't built those skills in your past experience, proceed with extreme caution.
3) Project management skills - you need to commit to schedules and be able to hold them.
4) People management - it seems pretty clear to me that unless you develop some level of celebrity with your work, you will need workers to make any real money. If you bill at $50 an hour, and you pay guys $20 an hour, you can leverage your time to make more. But, with people come management headaches, hiring headaches, OSHA, blah blah blah.

My conclusion on this idea for me. To make the income I need, I need a large operation with many workers. I think it would take several years to build the business to that level. 3 years ago I started working on a business plan to start or buy a custom millwork/high end cabinet shop. After lots of consultation I felt that building the business from scratch around a large commercial CNC was the right approach. I remember a really good article about about a guy who had a 40 person shop who was making a very good living, but he hated his role, All he did was hire, train, and fire. One day he found that he could lease a large commercial CNC and with the SW spend about the same as it cost for a laborer when the wages, taxes, workers compensation and unemployment insurance were considered. He made a decision to buy automation everytime someone quit or was fired. Of time he ended up with lots of automation and only 8 workers. When he had 40, the average guy was there only 6 months. By the time he was down to 8, it was mainly the best guys who stayed.

At that time I could lease a large 3 axis Onsrud CNC for $1800 a month, the SW as like $30-50K a year, and a CNC CAD dude was like $30K salary. It would also need 1 or 2 guys to feed the machine, assemble, etc. Those guys in Phx were like $20K a year. By the time you lease large enough space, get the tooling, get some OSHA/regulator approved finishing space, etc, it's easy to get to a burn rate of $20K a month without even paying yourself.

I would not be interested in doing it by myself. I would want to biuld a big business. Not sure that would be fun, so I haven't chased it yet.

One final thought. Seeing that big Onsrud cut out a complete arched top front entry door in 8 minutes was one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

Derek Lyons
02-24-2009, 7:17 PM
Win the lottery.

When I was in the used and rare book business, we used to tell a joke:

A book seller hit the lottery. When asked what he was going to do, he replied "well, I guess I'll just keep on buying and selling books till it's all gone".

Alex Shanku
02-24-2009, 7:25 PM
While everything posted (other than the flat out "your nuts") is credible but in my opinion it all depends on a multitude of factors. Far too many to just say it "is" or "isnt" possible.

How much money do you need to earn? Who will be your average customer? Retail? Wholesale? Both? Will you have to rent a space or buy? And many many more.

I think a living could easily be made in woodworking. That said some factors may make it very hard. If you have a 2k/mo mortgage and all the associated geegaws, kids heading for college, no or few tools, limited experience and knowledge, and so forth.

That said, if you were smart enough to live a pay as you go life and arent in hock up to your eyeballs, have reasonable expectations for income, a high tolerance for grief, dont have to pay an arm an a leg for shop space, flexible in your work habbits, I could go on, its absolutely possible. Will you be driving around in a brand new humV, no.

My personal feeling is we are coming into a time when people may have to recalibrate what it is to live the American dream. Whether or not they are able live on what they earn is completely dependent on many of these issues.

I have been getting a general feeling that well crafted items that will last may be on the upswing. Its just a feeling and I dont think it will cut into WM's bottom line but when your working in somewhat of a cottage industry you can make a modest living off the scraps until you get established.

Its definitely not an easy path, but going out on your own doing anything isnt easy.

Mark

I agree with this. I think you will soon ( next 2-4 years) see people decide to stay in their homes A LOT longer. I believe you will see a lot of remodel work as well as an increase in home furnishings. Houses will become long term homes to raise families and retire in, not commodities to flip and make profit, imo.

A family friend, who lives and works in Detroit, makes his living building furniture, built in shelving/benches, etc. He does work for churches, offices and residential work, as well. This man is a architect by trade, but really is a hybrid architect/furniture maker. He has done this for 40 years.

Anyway, my wife and I are under 30, have no debt (student loans and reasonable mortgage only). She makes a VERY good salary as a PA-C. I have a fully functional shop on my property.

I am thinking about working a few more years in my current field and transitioning into full time furniture / craft making.

Will it happen? Who knows. But I still have time to decide.

Rick Cicciarelli
02-24-2009, 7:34 PM
ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh....:( Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

Peter Quadarella
02-24-2009, 7:41 PM
As described, it depends on what the expenses are. Woodworking is a fulfilling activity, therefore there are many people doing it, driving the price down, not to mention the big factory stuff. I've met several woodworkers who make a living at their job.

It's possible, but you have to be willing to live modestly and trade cash and toys for fulfillment. The fact is, boring, annoying, and hellish jobs are ones that people would rather not do, so companies have to pay well to get workers for them.

Michael O'Sullivan
02-24-2009, 7:43 PM
ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh....:( Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

Not to pile on, but as several have pointed out above, just about the only way to make decent money running a WW business is to strip away all the things that make it fun in the first place.

Honestly, I would recommend that rather than starting up your own business, you go to work for a custom cabinet/furniture maker and see what it is like. You can always strike out on your own down the road, and if you pay attention, you should learn a lot about running a small business.

Joe Jensen
02-24-2009, 7:52 PM
Not to pile on, but as several have pointed out above, just about the only way to make decent money running a WW business is to strip away all the things that make it fun in the first place.

Honestly, I would recommend that rather than starting up your own business, you go to work for a custom cabinet/furniture maker and see what it is like. You can always strike out on your own down the road, and if you pay attention, you should learn a lot about running a small business.

Fantastis idea. You will learn on someone else's nickel. Plus, you will net more doing that for 6 months than you will for the first 6 months on your own.

More on my comments on the business side. A very high percentage of Doctor's offices fail because doctors want to practice medicine, and the are not trained to do the business side. Same is true for small businesses. When you see successful small businesses they are invariably run by people with sound business skills. The ones that fail are often run by people who have talent and passion around their trade, but they don't have the business skills to keep the business running.

Carlos Alden
02-24-2009, 8:14 PM
Dave:

It's probably very obvious but you didn't mention that one of the HUGE upsides from you doing this is the gift you are giving to the community. You are impacting the lives of those kids in countless ways. My hat is off to you for doing this. I think teachers ought to get an immediate pay raise.

Carlos


I'm one of the guys that went the teaching route. Short story is I traded a 30+ career in facilities management to teach high school shop. Downside is I took about a 40% cut in pay, and I spend six hours a day with 15 year old kids. Upside is a good amount of time off, and I get paid to improve my skills. It's a great job and I'm glad I did it. I plan to do it for the next ten to twelve years or so (assuming the economy doesn't cause the programs to be eliminated) and in the meantime I plan to use my breaks and summers to improve my furniture building skills and build a portfolio that I can use to try to get some custom work and then expand that into a retirement job. I am under no illusions as to being able to support myself by doing woodworking.

Gary Herrmann
02-24-2009, 8:15 PM
ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh....:( Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??


Rick, I agree with Joe - Michael does have a very good idea, but if you have no experience as a pro - that could be tough in this economy as well.

One other way to look at this is - would you still love it if you did it for money 60-80 hours per week? That's the thing I wonder about the most.

Richard Wolf
02-24-2009, 8:47 PM
I enjoy a good life making a living at woodworking. Those of you that know me, know that I build stairs and install railings for a living. When home building is in a boom I work in new construction for builders. When things get slow, like now, I do renovations for homeowners. In the northeast, a lot of homes got built with wrought iron rails on interior stairs, and people like to replace them with wood.
It is not the most creative woodworking all the time, but it allows me the ability to have a 1800 sq. ft. shop and most machines to equip it.
It is a skill that I taught myself by doing as much reading and research as I could find. After over 20 years, there is not much I have not done with a staircase.
It is a very small niche that few people try. Homeowners are almost never successful trying to do it themselves. I have installed railings for many finished carpenters. Some of them are better carpenters then I am.
My suggestion is to find a very small, special niche like stairbuilding and become the best you can at it.

Richard

Ron Bott
02-24-2009, 8:56 PM
It is a very small niche that few people try.

I think Richard is right on here. IMHO, your success in the craft will result from one of two possibilities:

1. You find a niche, with little or no competition and exploit it.

2. You are able to design and build things others can't. In this instance, the emphasis on design, i.e. artistic, custom one of a kind furniture.

Finally, do your homework and be honest with yourself about your skills, abilities, and current life situation. Don't let anyone ever convince you that you can't do it. If the skills and desire are there, you can.

Leo Graywacz
02-24-2009, 9:28 PM
I make a living at woodworking. You need to do what you need to do. It will not be fun. It will be a job. If you think it will be like your hobby life forget about it. This is real life. You need to start out small. Work cheap and get your name out there for doing quality work at a reasonable price. You need to have people skills, business skills and woodworking skills. You don't need a lot of machinery, but you do need some basic machinery and it needs to be of good quality. No Dewalt tablesaw, no Ryobi routers. You need a few pcs of industrial type equipment. Some sort of a UniSaw, a 8" jointer and a 15" planer. You need a place to do your work. A two car garage is about the minimum. You need the space to do the bigger jobs, you need the room for your machines and the stuff you build. You need to have suppliers that can work with you. You need to have a drive that most 9-5 people don't have. If you think your first 5 years are going to be 40 hours you might as well give up before you start. You will need to work for 60-100 hours a week. You will need all the skills you have and be willing to learn more. After about 5-7 years of this you should finally have a customer base built up so you can go in circles with them and add a few new clients on the way. It is not easy, it is not fun. It is work. And that is why you get paid for it. You need to figure out your overhead, your operating costs and what you want to make. You need to price your jobs out accordingly. You need to learn to say no. Don't get bullied into lowering your price. It is better to sit at home watching TV than to get a job that you will make no money on. At the beginning it is very hard to know what to charge. You will make mistakes, you will make $3.15 an hour on some projects. Yo will learn from the school of hard knocks. If you learn,you will succeed, if you don't you will perish into the night. This is a great resource here. Ask questions. Try not to ask pricing questions because we cannot possible know what your situation is. The best teacher is to screw up. You won't do that again. I have been working wood for 20 years. I have been a independent contractor for 13 years I have been in business on my own for 11 years. I have never cleared $100K. My best year so far is about $120K GROSS. I live comfortably with my wife and 3 kids in a house that I own, no more mortgage. My wife has a job. This is essential. My pay schedule is very (very) inconsistent. I get large sums of money every once and a while. The wifes consistent paycheck is nice and fills in the gaps. It would be hard to do without it. So think before you jump. Yes, it can be done. But with the economy in the state that it is in currently it is the wrong time to enter this field. But, if you are being forced to leave your position it is the best time to try, you may have little choice. Offer a service that no other does. Be there for your client. The best advertisement you can ever have is word of mouth. Good luck to you.

Doug Miller 303
02-24-2009, 9:34 PM
Gents,

I will agree with all of the above comments. I only have three schools of thought to add in to the mix.

1. I know a fella that makes antique reproductions for a worldwide firm, and he does alright. He only has one or two customers, and therefore doesn't have to worry about sales and estimating....much. He makes only 10 or 15 different pieces, over and over again. Every few years the pieces change. He works out of a barn that he rents for very little money, and only has the absolutely necessary tools.

2. Extreme specialization. Do something that not many others can do. These specializations will require months to years of study time before you even consider looking at a tape measure. It might also require a few math and/or engineering classes. The first five or ten attempts at building the product will most likely fail, and you will have to pay for it. Finding somebody to buy this product may prove difficult.

3. Location, location, location. Move your shop to that part of the country that requires the least amount of heating and cooling dollars, and the cost of living is still relatively inexpensive. Your customer base can be via the internet nowadays, whilst the product can be shipped anywhere in the world. Or, have a huge showroom in a well traveled, tourist trap area. Hire the best sales men/women you can get. This may mean saying goodbye to old friends and family.

Don't let anybody discourage you from your dream, as anything is possible. It just requires a ton of dedication, blood, sweat and tears.

Good luck,

Doug

Mark Bolton
02-24-2009, 10:28 PM
Nothing like a strong does of reality!

As often in life, Reality Bites.

When I see how high-volume wood products are made,

Not easy for the small timer...

There is a huge area right in the middle of the two extremes you mentioned where livings are often made. There are all sorts of semi-custom, stock, and fully custom products that are way below "fine art" and equally as far from "production and child labor". I mean take a look at Amish furniture or the multitude of other small wood items produced in small shops. Then there is always piecework or contract work for small components. How about grade stakes, on and on. They may not be the things that "move" you, but as another post said, they keep you in the work to be ready when the juicy stuff comes along.

This is what I meant when I mentioned being flexible in your work habits. If one insists on only doing fine woodworking, or customs, they may be a bit more limited than someone who has a small semi-stock production line, coupled with some piece work, coupled with some....

Of course if you have the demand for doing only what you love then youve got it licked.

A lot of it is as with anything, marketing and promoting your work. Unfortunately that usually takes more of your time than working in the shop. We had a full time pottery studio for a while. I remember a saying that many professional potters would always say, twenty percent of a potters time is spent at the wheel. The rest of the time you are promoting your work, printing brochures, pitching to galleries, boxing work, cleaning the studio, etc..

Mark

Mark Bolton
02-24-2009, 10:47 PM
ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh....:( Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

That last part is the key. While its difficult to get them down once they are up, if they are down or reasonable, your opportunities broaden exponentially.

Again, I keep reading about all these extremes, 20k/month in expenses for a massive production shop and so on. Those things are perfectly fine, we have many friends who have no desire to live in a modest home, drive a modest vehicle, and live an average life. They own their own companies and want "The Donald" life. New vehicles, harley's, boats, trips, sit in the office on the phone, on and on. But as many of them flame out they realize that they wish they had stuck with a smaller operation where they were more a part of the process.

Its easy to get carried away especially when ego and testosterone are stirred in the same pot.

Mark

Rick Fisher
02-24-2009, 10:54 PM
I was going to say that the way to end up with a million dollars in woodworking is to start with 2 million. Then it occured to me.

I have a doorshop that makes money. Not loads but it pays 1,2,3,4,5,6,7...

7 salaries and makes about 4% - 5% on the bottom line each year.

My main competitor is a owner / hanger shop. He sells and hangs each door. He has a showroom that cost him about $10K and does good work.

I happen to know that he hasnt made less than 6 figures a year in many many moons.

A typical interior door (up here) pre-hung in a 4 1/2" jamb sells for about $89.00 Cdn.

The components cost about $56.00 and the labor is about $12.00

Our shop puts one out in about 7 minutes. His shop probably takes 12 minutes.

The difference is that he actually hangs the door... do the math.

His wife does the books, they share the sales job and he runs the shop. I think he has an after school kid who cleans up each day.. not sure.

He probably takes 15% home after expenses on each order and does $1.2 millon - $1.5 million a year.

The example I gave is of a typical interior slab door. An exterior door could take a couple hours to build but he would make $250 - $400 on the door (before expenses).

John Ricci
02-25-2009, 12:11 AM
You have to have your "backup" income in most cases to make it work. Doug made some very good points about location and limited product line. I have my ww business out in the barn in a tourist/cottage/ski area and I mainly make red cedar deck furniture, custom kitchen boxes and simple toys. The cottagers buy my chairs and kitchen bits and all of the older folks will spend money on toys for the grandkids long before they spend it on themselves...a throwback to a simpler time and something the kids will hopefully hang onto for their families later. The backup for this is the clincher...we own/operate an antique and vintage housewares store which provides the venue for exposure of our products. I do the woodwork and my wife is a custom sewer who is constantly busy with projects for folks who own $1mil+ "vacation homes" and they don't mind spending money on high quality goods available and made locally. Right now it seems a lot of folks are looking to "the good old days" when making their purchases. In the right customer demographic Made In China just doesn't cut it. It may seem nuts but as the economic situation has worsened, our sales have increased nicely:confused:

J.R.

Mark Singer
02-25-2009, 12:24 AM
There is a lot of great advice already, I often count my hours and think how little I would make! And I am quite fast at woodworking. Only when it becomes art do you have a chance and even that is difficult

Dave Cav
02-25-2009, 1:14 AM
Dave:

It's probably very obvious but you didn't mention that one of the HUGE upsides from you doing this is the gift you are giving to the community. You are impacting the lives of those kids in countless ways. My hat is off to you for doing this. I think teachers ought to get an immediate pay raise.

Carlos
Thanks; I suppose I'm keeping a few of them off the streets and out of jail. I'd be happy just to have 90% of my students be able to read a tape measure to 1/16" by the end of the year. Maybe next year...

Per Swenson
02-25-2009, 6:15 AM
Jeeze, I kept writing a reply to this thread, then I would delete it.

No matter how I phrased it, it just came out both pompous and harsh.

Though Mr Singer finally added a key ingredient, the artist pricing,
he did leave out a very important part. The road to becoming a reputational artist. A niche, a name and a following.

You must be prepared in the beginning to learn to lose everything and smile.
Adversity and rejection have to not only be expected, but used as tools to be both a better businessman, woodworker and human being.
In other words you not only have to have character, you need to be one.

I believe everybody has these traits, they just are unaware of them.
Job security will do that to you.

But here is the deal, you will never know unless you try...more then once.
And if you don't, in the back of your mind will echo those immortal words
of Terry Malloy, " I coulda been a contenda".

Per

Larry Edgerton
02-25-2009, 7:55 AM
Nothing like a strong does of reality!

As often in life, Reality Bites.

When I see how high-volume wood products are made, I can fully understand why they sell so cheap....virtually no labor involved...these machines see and remove defects in the wood, dimension it, sand it, finish it, etc. etc. In the end, you often have a bunch of parts that can be assembled / glued in jigs very quickly... considering machines run 24/7 with no health care or sick time, the cost to make a product is so low vs. a person doing all this the ol fashion way....

or....you have the other end of the market... where more fine art intricate ww products, like jewelry boxes are made by child laborers making pennies.... sure the quality can be better, but its mind boggling this stuff can retail for $30 - $70 on avg. Welcome to the free world...

IMO, these two issues really changed the mindset of "value" of many ww products. Hence why custom made products, such as built-ins, crown molding, etc. will always escape the two issues above, and be done the ol fashion way... So if was to ever consider making a living, that would be the only aveneue, and even then, competition would be high and its hard breaking in any new busienss. Cabinets fall into the 50/50 range, since the BORG's have adapted mass produced ready to install boxes... But anymore, to seel cabinets, it often pays to have a nice showroom like the Borgs where the customer can see everything, touch it, view computer images of slight changes, etc. etc. Not easy for the small timer...

This is the best summary I have seen covering what we are up against.

I make the biggest share of my money doing stuff that machines can not do under any circumstances, trimming upscale houses. All other avenues I have tried such as cabinets, furniture, and small high end trinkets such as jewelery boxes are are corrupted by either mass production or sadly, unfair labor practices. What is left is very little. I looked at investing in more machinery to build more boxes, but it is not woodwork, so I may as well have gotten a job at Ford.

I would not choose this profession again, I would have made it my hobby.

Mitchell Andrus
02-25-2009, 8:11 AM
Don't make furniture to earn a living.

Run a furniture business to earn a living.

Gallery.... Spend a year prototyping and marketing your goods part time, then decide. You'll soon discover that you'll be in the shop only about 30% of the time in the beginning years.

Larry Edgerton
02-25-2009, 8:20 AM
This is what I meant when I mentioned being flexible in your work habits. If one insists on only doing fine woodworking, or customs, they may be a bit more limited than someone who has a small semi-stock production line, coupled with some piece work, coupled with some....

Mark

Very good point Mark.

If I was not all over the place all of the time I would not have my shop. I am not in an area with enough population that I can be specialized, so I take what comes. I have actually painted houses when things got tight, I am a licensed builder, a journeyman plumber athough I don' use it, I have plowed snow before in years that were slack, I subcontract trim from other builders who can't do what I do, I have even done roofing when payments need to be met. I repaired power line trucks during Katrina cleanup and I could go on but you get the idea.

The jobs that I live for, art made with wood if you will, usually do not make me enough or any money for the time involved that I can call it work, because you should make a profit from work. They are rather an appeasement of the soul that I need ocasionally to make me keep going in all of the jobs that I do not really like, you know, the bread and butter.

I am getting to the point where I have all the tools, and my shop is paid off, my house is close, but now I am physically worn out. I have a plan to have zero payments soon, and I am so looking forward to that. i may finally be able to afford to work for less/Hr. and do more of the work I am passionate about.

As has been stressed, low overhead is the key. It takes less money to purchase something after you have made and saved the money, and if you can not do that you are either not making enough, or you were never meant to be in the woodworking business. There is a price to pay.

Jim Kountz
02-25-2009, 8:25 AM
My suggestion is to find a very small, special niche like stairbuilding and become the best you can at it.

Richard

Ahh now we're getting somewhere. All this talk about you cant do this and you cant do that and you need 20k a month. Hogwash. What you need is to do one thing, and do it well. Dont just "take on woodworking for cash". Thats crazy. Have a plan and stick to it. Find a need an fill it. They're out there, one just needs to look for them. Look around your everyday lives and you will start to see many opportunities. Building one offs and custom items is a very hard row to hoe, I wouldnt even begin to think I could make a living doing that right now but specialized woodworking, things harry homeowner cant do, theres your huckleberry.

Paul B. Cresti
02-25-2009, 9:16 AM
So I have come to a cross roads in my life and I feel I am being shown the door (to leave) in my current path. One hobby that I've always loved was woodworking, but I am curious how one takes it to the next level and makes a living at it? Do you open a shop and sell fine furniture in a retail setting? Are you doing special order work for folks in a private setting..i.e. carpentry work? Do you make the most from teaching classes? I am just curious how the folks that do this for a living, actually make enough money from it to pay the bills? What are you doing and what have you found to be the most lucrative niche?

First question is define career? Second question is what kind of standard of living do you want to achieve? Third question is assunming you are married does you wife have a job and heath care coverage?

Then from there start to talk about product, supply and demand, etc....Remember this is a business and it should be run accordingly...I have been there and done that it is not for the faint of heart or means

jud dinsmore
02-25-2009, 9:36 AM
lots of good advise already posted but i thought i would share my limited experience.

started about 10 months ago and would have long since been out of business if not for my wife's income. i have a plan and a niche market but so do others and it is a lot harder to break into that i initially thought. i've supplemented my work with kitchen installs and some general handyman work but i'm still in the hole big-time.

"business" related tasks (sales, marketing, accounting, etc.) take up significant time (one man shop) and without the equipment running i'm really not getting paid. my overhead is pretty low ($2k for 1500 sf, all insurances, licenses, utilities, and legitimate business expenses).

i started with considerable savings, tools, and some good working relationships (established as i was a home builder) but so far it has provided me with a lot of opportunities to bid work but not enough jobs to make ends meet. this is partly due to weak consumer confidence ("i'm going to wait on my project until the economy improves").

breaking into my niche market is going poorly. i anticipated being slow for the first couple of years and, while things are building slower than i planned, i'm not too surprised. i started my business more based on a preceived need for demand rather than my love for the craft. i think the continued worsening of the economy has affected my business somewhat but the fact of life is i'm still the new kid on the block and work will lead to more work. it is just a matter of waiting it out while i build a customer base.

there seem to be a lot of these threads about starting a woodworking business. all of the advise given is worthwhile and should be considered. your individual situation will dictate what you should do. i think the realities of starting most new ventures are working a ton for little money. business isn't a sprint - its a marathon. good luck.

Paul Johnstone
02-25-2009, 10:21 AM
ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh....:( Fricken sick of doing $%#@ work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

I knew a guy that had a dream to open his own petstore, because that was his hobby (breeding and raising reptiles). He eventually leveraged himself enough to do it, but shut down after 3 years, because he said it was worse than his previous job. The point is, once you turn a hobby into a business, it's not likely to be fun anymore.

I think about that on my woodworking. I will make a goof, but I will remember that this piece is just for me so I can fudge it.. Then I think, "If this was for a customer, I'd have to redo the whole thing, what a PITA that would be".

I just can't imagine dealing with customers and doing custom work for them. I imagine some of them are going to be extremely picky and impossible to please. Then you have to deal with the deadbeats that don't want to pay or try to re-negotiate the price after the work is done, etc.

I really don't like my career either, but it's better than runnning my own business :) BTW, a survey said that 85% of Americans wish they had another career, so you are in good company.

Don Bullock
02-25-2009, 10:21 AM
I have a friend that is a fantastic sculpture of bronze western art. His work is throughly researched, authentic to the craft and precise in every detail. Walt's love of his craft is unending along with his knowledge of the history of the Old West in the United States. He's a true artist, but instead on making a living at his art he sells cardboard boxes to businesses and hates his job. What's the missing link you ask? ---Recognition as an artist by people who buy art. People will pay far more for a "fake," poorly rendered Remmington than they will for one of his pieces purely because they have heard the name.

Three people I was hoping to see answers from have chimed in on this topic:


...
My suggestion is to find a very small, special niche like stairbuilding and become the best you can at it.

Richard

After seeing pictures of Richard's work I can see why he's been successful. He has become a master at his chosen craft. His advice is sound, but it has taken him quite a while to become established in that position. His staircases that I've seen pictured here are true pieces of art.


There is a lot of great advice already, I often count my hours and think how little I would make! And I am quite fast at woodworking. Only when it becomes art do you have a chance and even that is difficult

Mark is one who has taken woodworking to the level of being true art. As an architect he has been able to incorporate furniture into his building designs. Creating beautiful objects (true art) is difficult because the concept of what is "art" is different for everyone. To be successful one has to be able to create art based on a customer's perception of art. While I'm not one who likes the modernistic designs Mark creates, I greatly appreciate the artistic talent shown in all his work that he shows here. That talent has served him well.


Jeeze, I kept writing a reply to this thread, then I would delete it.

No matter how I phrased it, it just came out both pompous and harsh.

Though Mr Singer finally added a key ingredient, the artist pricing,
he did leave out a very important part. The road to becoming a reputational artist. A niche, a name and a following.

You must be prepared in the beginning to learn to lose everything and smile.
Adversity and rejection have to not only be expected, but used as tools to be both a better businessman, woodworker and human being.
In other words you not only have to have character, you need to be one.

I believe everybody has these traits, they just are unaware of them.
Job security will do that to you.

But here is the deal, you will never know unless you try...more then once.
And if you don't, in the back of your mind will echo those immortal words
of Terry Malloy, " I coulda been a contenda".

Per

Per has summed up this topic very well. If you do a search of his work you'll see that he has the background to be as he said, "both pompous and harsh." Again Per points out the need to be an artist at the craft, not just a carpenter. Per's carpentry is definitely artistic.

In addition to what has been said on this subject I'd like to add the following. To be successful in any craft one has to be either fast and good or an exceptional artist. Fast and good workers in almost any business can be successful. They are the ones often hired by others to do the "grunt work" in a project. Those who are recognized as "true artists" by those who want their "art" seem to be the ones that are the most successful. While Per is correct in saying that all of us possess these traits, Even if we display those artistic traits in our work, becoming recognized by the paying public seems to me to be the key factor to success. That, Rick, is the difficult part.

David Keller NC
02-25-2009, 10:53 AM
"ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh....:( Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses?? "

You don't say how old you are. If you are quite young (less than 35), you've a number of ways to go. There are many professions that are relatively immune to outsourcing or factory competition that you can get training to do, and that companies will hire you for.

As someone that has an advanced degree in the sciences but is old enough to no longer be eligible for corporate employment (45, in my case) I can tell you that you should not complain about boredom. There's a lot worse - like being unable to pay for a mortgage and living on the street.

And by the way - everyone's sick of doing work to pay the bills. There's a support group for that, and they meet at the local bar. :D

Joe Jensen
02-25-2009, 11:55 AM
This thread reminds me of something a friend told his teenage twin boys.

"There are two perspectives on career. One is to pursue your passion so you love your profession. The other is to select a profession that will earn you enough money to pursue your passion."

I think the mistake many people make is pursuing their passion without accepting that it will not earn them as much money as they want. The key to me is to understand all the benefits and tradeoffs to a choice before you make it. We have a neighbor, a very bright girl. Finished high in the top 5 in a graduating class of 750. She had a full ride scholarship at the University. Her passion was photography and art so she got a degree in Art History. She graduated a year ago and just got her first job as a secretary. She is so pissed that she can't get a job in Art History, despite being told numerous times by my wife and I and many others that with that degree she would be essentially unemployable. Now she has spent 4 years earning a degree that won't get her employment, and she has resorted to working in a job that she does not like.

I personally think that is a huge mistake, the mistake being not willing to understand and accept up front the income expectation of a chosen profession.

I got a degree in engineering not because I like taking much harder classes in college. I did it because it paid 2X most other degrees when I was in college 25 years ago. College would have been a lot more fun if I took art history :) but I knew I would not be happy in the bottom half of income earners.

Today, we pay new college graduates with degrees in engineerign almost $70K a year in salary plus a ton of benefits. That's with only a 4 year degree. The strange reality is that most of these engineers don't really do engineering, but rather marketing and business in a technology company. The kids who go to college to get a marketing or business degree can't get a job in a tech company, and they work just as hard in their career and earn less than 1/2 when they graduate.

Why all this? I think it's really important to make sure you go into this with your eyes wide open. If your life expectations are more than $50K or so a year, you need to be an artist if you want to work by yourself, or you need a large operation. If you are comfortable making $15-50 an hour, then you can be very happy with a small operation.

David Keller NC
02-25-2009, 1:05 PM
Joe - Something you might mention to your neighbor. Now is not a particualrly good time with the absolute crash in the antiques market, but places like Sotheby's and the other major art auction houses regularly hire individuals with that sort of background. And of course, academia and museums are other excellent paying jobs for those with such an education, though academia might require an advanced degree.

John Thompson
02-25-2009, 4:30 PM
You might want to give a quick glance to a thread that just came up...

Loss of Business in Millwork...

Might be an eye opener for the OP.

Sarge..

Russ Sears
02-25-2009, 5:20 PM
Do you like selling? It's just a guess but I'm imagining that a lot of small "craft" type businesses fail because the proprietor, though s/he might be tremendously skillful, hates the selling aspect of the business.

If you like selling or think you would be good at it, you might stand a better chance of survival. You might even consider getting into sales for a woodworking related company.

Will Blick
02-25-2009, 6:34 PM
The sheer number of quality "life's lessons" and "words of wisdom" responses, clearly demonstrated the number of incredibly intelligent and articulate members on SMC. Very impressive guys....

A few comments....

I fully agree with the premise behind.... "pursue your passion and be poor" vs. "pursue a career that will afford you to enjoy your hobby".... a generalization of the previous posts. In my case, I wish someone explained this to me when I was younger. :-(


As for being an "educated" young person in a good paying field, such as the "engineer" example...... this does not always pan out either.... many fields to go through severe recessions.... some get trumped by newer technologies, overseas imports, change in tastes, a glut of skilled people in that line of work, etc. etc. So even expensive degrees are no assurance today - like they were 30 years ago.... the best bets in this regard are the fields that control the number of graduates, such as Medical Doctors and to some level, attorneys, optometrist (only 7 schools in USA), etc. etc. However, in most fields, free markets prevails, this can work against you. It seems being an R.N. (nurse), from 1900 right through today, you were always assured a very good living, and NEVER be without a job. We give incentives to foreign nurses of $50 - $100k to come to America to work..... we will never do that for woodworkers :-)


Also, on the subject of automation.... like others have stated.... this stuff is beyond amazing. And previously, when I mentioned doing custom ww as a means to get away from child labor competition who set the "value" bar..... soon, (if not already) we will see these efficient highly automated shops set the new "value" bar for many semi custom home products, mainly cabinets. This again will force the small shop into the ol.... "how can they do it for that price" dilemma. Of course trim work and built-ins will always avoid this mess.

If i was young today and wanted to start a ww career and did not have a ton of cash, or a desire to own every part of the business.... I would focus on the computer aspect of woodworking.... as well as the installation end. Why?

Because computers have become the necessary evil when it comes to selling "custom" cabinets, built-ins, etc. A customer will pay a premium for those who can sit down and rip through all this amazing software and allow the customer to visualize all his/her dreams. Then you are not just another bidder on the job...of course in some cases, this is already done, but not in the case of an avg. rehab.

Then, you take this data, and package the carcasses to the big automation houses, and let them build the boxes for you....get the doors from an automated door maker, the drawers from automated houses that specialize in draw boxes, etc. The ability to package these sub components into "procurement" documents is talent that can make a person successful in this field today. Your expertise relies on assembling all these bits on the job site, which is where you ww skills come into play. you hire some grunt labor for the install to help.....much easier than finding skilled labor for a shop.

Granted, this concept while feasible, has shifted most of the ww hours into sales skills, computer skills and administration work (working with all the subs, contracts, payments, etc).... You can still work in the field successfully in an enjoyable manner, vs. doing the same ww task over and over in a ww factory...... this is not ww IMO, this is robot work.

With this concept, you have the ability to do big jobs, while not having $20k overhead per month....others have done that for you. You leverage the weak link in the chain.... computers, sales, and project management.... just "food for thought" for some of the young guns on the forum....

Kelly C. Hanna
02-25-2009, 8:05 PM
First rule of starting your own business....never, ever ask anyone if you should do it or not. Reason? You'll get 80-90% negative responses. My father was guilty of this one. He was VP of Piggly Wiggly and could have succeeded greatly in his own small operation, but was frightened away by all the negatives he heard. Amazingly, a huge percentage of those negatives came from folks who had never tried it.

First off you will need to find a 'sure thing' when it comes to cash flow. Building decks is nowhere near rocket science....I grew my little deck & fence business from scratch to over $100k gross+ in less than 5 years flat off ONE $219 ad per month. My first few jobs bought all the tools I needed to get the job done and over the years I have expanded to running a full crew all but a few weeks a year. I am about to have to hire 2 more guys so that I can keep up with the current pace. I still run that same little ad in the back of a neighborhood magazine....less than 200,000 homes see it yet I get calls from all over the metro area. The last few years I have topped $145k in gross sales AND I do a lot of the work myself to this day.

While I did work for two master carpenters over the years, I was in the restaurant business for almost 20 years. The maniacal pace and lack of future drove me out in 1996. I started out that first year with the one little ad and have been busy ever since. I saw my niche and advertised to that end. Had I found my business name that year I might have doubled my sales right off the bat. Granted the first few years were not extremely profitable, but very careful estimation kept me from ever starving or missing any payments on the house.

I am opn track to beat my record of $147k gross sales by at least $10k this year. Bad economy doesn't always mean no work, especially for someone who does the job right. You will have a hard time starting up a furniture business right now but that doesn't mean you can't work on it in your spare time like I do. I thought I'd be able to get a few pieces up and running this month but the jobs just keep coming in at a feverish pace.

There's a guy right here in our county that does custom work and has for the last 15 years. He started up with nothing but a few tools and a small shop. For the last five years he's been booked over a year in advance. He's my role model for the next phase of woodworking in my world. I want to stop driving into Dallas and work out of my shop at home. It will take me a few years to get there, but I am forging ahead with that goal in mind.

With the new housing market prices, sales are going to be plentiful with investors and first time home buyers very soon. It has already hit here with a vengance because we have jobs in our area. Also folks are staying in their houses and instead of moving up they will be remodeling. I have opened up my business to doing more of these services that homeowners will be needing done such as cabinetry and remodeling...both of which I got out of due to being severly undercut by the fly-by-nighters. Luckily all of them are almost gone in this market and there is a genuine shortage of those who do good work.

Bottom line....It is doable for most anyone who really wants to get into this market. You may not be able to jump right in and make a huge living, not sure what $$ you are used to but it is possible to make a good living doing something you really enjoy. If you ever want to talk about it, PM me with your contact info, I'd be happy to help you in any way I can.

Peter Gregory
02-25-2009, 8:33 PM
I'm just stealing from "The Tipping Point", but the three things are sales, connections and doing the work. If you aren't good at any of these 3 things, you need to have a partner or employee who is.

Clearly, there is more money in kitchens than anywhere else. Everyone has one and it can be financed with the house. Clearly, the bread and butter of woodworking in the US. China and Ikea are cutting into the pricing of average furniture.

A friend makes a nice living designing customer cabinets and furniture. He is an artist and is simply better and loves the work more than I do. His quality is untouchable and he is an expert are every part of woodworking. Unless you "love it", you aren't touching that guy.

It is interesting how many people get into woodworking and refuse to have employees. The profit in business is having enough work, hiring, managing and profiting from employees doing much of the busy work. If you can sell and manage, you can always do pretty well.

Personally, I would touch owning a wood working business. There are way to many great people, completing for a limited amount of work. There is almost no way to gain a competitive advantage, so prices are always going to be lower than I would like.

If you are determined to go into woodworking, you might consider working for someone else for a while. See how they do it and learn from their mistakes. Might save you a really tough first year or two in business.

Jerry Nettrour
02-26-2009, 1:22 AM
I know there are plenty of replies here and more advice probably is not needed but thought I would share my experience. I lost my job last July. First time in my life. My wife is the stay at home mommy, I am daddy of 2 small girls. I aggressively searched for a decent job and failed to get hired. As a woodworker I decided to go that route. I started with misc. furniture and media cabinets and such. I am running a fully functional shop on my property. I have found a strong market in kitchen cabinets, so far we have filled door orders for a few customers, we have done some kitchen reface jobs (which I prefer) and just last week I sold a kitchen for 13,000.00 (my largest single kitchen job yet). My wife has since gone to work for Citi Bank for the benefits and extra steady income. So far though I can say that I have enjoyed myself as I love making saw dust. We live in San Antonio and using CL I am able to generate 2 to 3 calls and email inquiries per day. I can do around 5 to 8 estimates per week just off of CL ads. So far so good, I am sure I have tons and tons to learn yet though. Just my 2 cents...

Neal Clayton
02-26-2009, 3:49 PM
lots of people choose their trade, a few of those seem to choose their competition wisely, i think that makes a big difference.

the people that were trying to compete with the borgs and ikea for kitchen cabinets in the suburbs are hurting right now, big time.

the people back home in new orleans that make custom millwork, doors, windows, and cabinetry for high end uptown mansions, on the other hand, tend to do pretty well.

and no i don't make my living at this so take my comments with a grain of salt ;). but if i were planning to, i'd do that, i think. work at a job to pay the bills and hone my craft to the point that i could make things not many others do, and only for a price not many can afford.

what i can speak from is having (reasonably) unlimited funds to work with. that i have, the family business we all worked on paid off at the right time and neither me, my parents, or my siblings ever have to work again, so i work on my old house to keep myself busy. and from my standpoint, my struggle isn't in the price of contract work, it's the struggle to find quality. i don't mind overpaying for quality, the problem is most contractors can't, or won't, provide the level of quality i'm willing to pay too much for.

there are a million tradesmen in the phone book, i've dealt with dozens. so far i have hired two that i trust, and they were not the least expensive.

Cliff Rohrabacher
02-27-2009, 8:48 AM
It's easy:
First you start out in a fairly well off family: the kind that can pay $40-Gees a year to send you to one of the two top art schools in the world. One is in Italy and another in Rhode Island.

Then you graduate with the adoring love of your professors and of course Honors.

Then you use the contact network you have made to worm your way into the upper class of the art world while you daddy pays for you to live in NY or LA or Paris etc.


Then you do cute one off pieces and sell them for oh maybe $250-Gees a pop to people who haven't a clue what they are buying.


It really is that easy.