Millers Falls tote loose.....longish post

[Craig Johnson]

Hi everyone.
First post here in the neanderthal section. I am another one sliding blissfully down the slippery slope of vintage tools!!
I am pleased to say I have acquired some planes in my relatively new woodworking experience.
I have a Stanley 9 1/2, a Stanley #5 type 14 and my newest purchase is a Millers Falls #9C.
My question is on the tote on the Millers Falls.
Its in good shape and not cracked or broken. But it is loose. When I tighten down the bolt that runs through the back of the tote it still is loose and has some lateral play in the front. No bolt or bolt hole for the front part of the tote is provided.
As seen in the pic, it has a raised area or pin that sticks into the front heel of the tote. Since the hole in the tote is quite larger than the pin, it allows some free movement in the tote after being tightened.
Is this common on these or is there some type of fix that maybe some of you with similar planes or with a #9 have came up with?
I really dont want and play in it for fear of it cracking or breaking. OTOH if thats the way they are and this movement keeps the tote from being too tight then I will leave it alone.
I did read something onnline somewhere about filing some of the threaded end down to provide more tightness but not sure I want to do that.
Really would prefer a tight grip instead of looseness.
Let me know if you guys have any ideas on this......

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x123/gearhound17/IMG_2162.jpg

[Dave Matson]

If the tote screw bottoms out before you can attain a tight fit you could try using some belleville washers to give you more room to torque it down.
http://www.georgesbasement.com/bellvlle.htm

If the oversized dimple in the front is still a problem perhaps you could try drilling it out and replacing the hole with a plug of hardwood with a new properly sized dimple. Good luck! I really like MF planes. That red paint and fancy lever cap just seem to give them more character :)

[Jim Koepke]

What Dave said. That would be my suggestion, I have done similar things without the Belleville washers and just using plain flat washers at the top end of the screw. The Belleville have the advantage of having a bit of spring to them so the tote is less likely to crack. For me, just loosening the screw during seasonal humidity changes seems to work.

One thing I have done on totes from Stanley planes that have this problem is to carefully take a few shavings off the bottom of the tote. It is amazing the difference a few thousands of an inch can make.

Another thing that might work is to cut a few pieces of masking tape to fit the bottom. Make them just a little smaller than the base of the tote so it will not show. Put those on the base, poke a small hole for the pimple and see if that helps. Regular paper would likely also work. I used to make shims out of paper ticket stock all the time in my old job to take care of this kind of thing.

You are about the closest member to where I live on this forum that I have seen posting here so far. I live just up I-5 from you in Longview/Kelso.

Good luck,

jim

[Dominic Greco]

One thing I have done on totes from Stanley planes that have this problem is to carefully take a few shavings off the bottom of the tote. It is amazing the difference a few thousands of an inch can make.

Another thing that might work is to cut a few pieces of masking tape to fit the bottom. Make them just a little smaller than the base of the tote so it will not show. Put those on the base, poke a small hole for the pimple and see if that helps. Regular paper would likely also work. I used to make shims out of paper ticket stock all the time in my old job to take care of this kind of thing.


Second on Jim's suggestions. The part about using masking tape shims is a good one. I've had my fair share of loose totes and have found that careful "flattening" of the base is a good place to start. A raised prtion or a bump in the base of the tote will always mess you up.

When all else fails I've also shortened the threaded rod by a couple of thousandths with careful use of a grinder. But I reserve that for a last ditch effort if the threaded rod has a boogered up end.

[Ken Werner]

Perhaps I am more cavalier, but I readily shorten the threaded rod. This is a very quick and easy solution.

[Douglas Brummett]

Could be a couple of reasons for the movement. I can usually get by with sanding the bottom of the tote. Sometimes the sole is not entirely level. I like the tape shim to fill the voids. Typically I use double-sided duct tape, it fills the voids and also tacs the tote in place. Very handy for the single screw totes :)

[george wilson]

Sanding the bottom of the handle will make it looser. I wouldn't use tape myself,because tape under pressure makes its glue slippery as sn**. I'd recommend gluing on some paper shims with hide glue. It dries crystalline,non-skid,and is reversible should you ever need to remove it.

[Craig Johnson]

What Dave said. That would be my suggestion, I have done similar things without the Belleville washers and just using plain flat washers at the top end of the screw. The Belleville have the advantage of having a bit of spring to them so the tote is less likely to crack. For me, just loosening the screw during seasonal humidity changes seems to work.

One thing I have done on totes from Stanley planes that have this problem is to carefully take a few shavings off the bottom of the tote. It is amazing the difference a few thousands of an inch can make.

Another thing that might work is to cut a few pieces of masking tape to fit the bottom. Make them just a little smaller than the base of the tote so it will not show. Put those on the base, poke a small hole for the pimple and see if that helps. Regular paper would likely also work. I used to make shims out of paper ticket stock all the time in my old job to take care of this kind of thing.

You are about the closest member to where I live on this forum that I have seen posting here so far. I live just up I-5 from you in Longview/Kelso.

Good luck,

jim

Thanks Jim. I did notice you're in Longview. Thats not far at all!
Thanks for your help everyone. Still on the fence as to what to do though.

[Ken Werner]

Well one thing for sure, no lack of differing opinions on what to do.

[george wilson]

It isn't complex: If the screw is too long,and is bottoming out,it is because the handle has lost height from shrinkage over the years. You either make the handle taller,or grind some off the screw threads. In the interest of preserving a future antique,gluing on removable paper shims is the wisest decision,as far as this old museum employee is concerned.

[Craig Johnson]

It isn't complex: If the screw is too long,and is bottoming out,it is because the handle has lost height from shrinkage over the years. You either make the handle taller,or grind some off the screw threads. In the interest of preserving a future antique,gluing on removable paper shims is the wisest decision,as far as this old museum employee is concerned.

I do agree with you on this. The bottom of the tote has a nice finish on it too. Would hate to remove that.
BUT OTOH dont want a loose tote.

[Craig Johnson]

Sanding the bottom of the handle will make it looser. I wouldn't use tape myself,because tape under pressure makes its glue slippery as sn**. I'd recommend gluing on some paper shims with hide glue. It dries crystalline,non-skid,and is reversible should you ever need to remove it.

This sounds like a good option. Would prefer to keep tote in as good a condition as I can but still maintaining a tight fit.

[Jim Koepke]

Oops, my mistake.

Doing something to take a little off the bottom of the tote will make it a touch looser. This should only be done if the bottom is clearly not flat.

Some paper shims under the tote should let you know if there is just a little shortness in the handle. This would have the same effect as using a washer at the top of the tote.

My favored course is to take the path of minimum alteration and maximum reversibility.

There may also be some problem with the shoulder for the screw inside the handle. This is seen in old totes all the time. It may have been switched with another plane by one of the owners over time.

There could also be something in the threads keeping the screw from taking that last half turn that is needed.

My knowledge on how the Millers Falls planes tote hardware is made is zilch. For Stanley planes, my extra hardware bin comes in handy for this. Just have to lay out all the tote rods and find one the right size.

Good luck,

jim

[george wilson]

I didn't recommend washers lest it make the top of the screw stick up out of the top of the tote.Of course,we aren't there to see if the screw is recessed enough to do that.

[John Keeton]

Perhaps I am more cavalier, but I readily shorten the threaded rod. This is a very quick and easy solution.Me, too! In fact, this is exactly how I solved the problem on a Millers Falls plane. This can be accomplished quickly, and if done correctly, would be very difficult to see.

[Craig Johnson]

"My favored course is to take the path of minimum alteration and maximum reversibility."

This is exactly how I feel as well. Reversible is good.
It does appear that its the original tote screw. It fits exactly in the hole in the top with no space around it. I could be wrong though.
Also, I checked flatness of bottom of tote with my Starrett square and its not flat at all.
I will check the threads on the sole for anything that would hinder threading.

[Richard Dooling]

I have the opposite problem. I picked up a #3 with a really torn up tote. I decided to make a replacement and need a slightly longer threaded rod if I want the nut flush with the top.

As a side benefit, I eased the area where my thumb crosses the handle ane it feels more comfortable. I might not feel right doing that to an original.

[Craig Johnson]

I have an update.
I thought about it and decided to make a shim out of some scrap I had in the shop.
First I took a piece of poplar and made a round plug for the indentation on the bottom of the tote. Then I fit it and glued it in.
Second, I resawed a piece of oak and made it the same size as the tote bottom.
Sanded it about where I thought it needed to be (thicker at the back) and drilled a front and rear hole.
Attached it to the tote and fitted it up. Seems to be what she needed.
Nice and tight.
Gonna order up some hide glue and attach it.
Should be good once I get it glued on.
Thanks for everyones help.

[Jim Koepke]

I have the opposite problem. I picked up a #3 with a really torn up tote. I decided to make a replacement and need a slightly longer threaded rod if I want the nut flush with the top.

As a side benefit, I eased the area where my thumb crosses the handle ane it feels more comfortable. I might not feel right doing that to an original.

Why not, it is yours after all. Mine get filed all the time. If my heirs sell my planes on eBay, some collector is going to complain about how the handles have been modified to fit a fat hand. On planes like my #5s and bigger, the bottom where the pinky finger gets pinched is often reshaped. Some of the thumb area is also opened up. For the smaller handles, what ever can be done to make them more comfortable. Usually just let the fore finger and the pinky stick out.

Was thinking today how my planes are mostly franken planes. Most of them are type 11 or earlier. On the ones that I can, the adjusting nut has been changed to the type 12 and later nut. If they had hight knobs, they were changed to low knobs. Blades and lever caps have not been marked, so they have all been around the planes they will fit on. Some semblance of is order is kept, but they are mine and they are users.

After sharpening today, I discovered that one plane had the wrong size lever cap on it. It worked out because of another that was just recently bought was using one of the spare lever caps that was too small. So they were swapped around and all my planes are happy.

jim

[Craig Johnson]

Why not, it is yours after all. Mine get filed all the time. If my heirs sell my planes on eBay, some collector is going to complain about how the handles have been modified to fit a fat hand. On planes like my #5s and bigger, the bottom where the pinky finger gets pinched is often reshaped. Some of the thumb area is also opened up. For the smaller handles, what ever can be done to make them more comfortable. Usually just let the fore finger and the pinky stick out.

Was thinking today how my planes are mostly franken planes. Most of them are type 11 or earlier. On the ones that I can, the adjusting nut has been changed to the type 12 and later nut. If they had hight knobs, they were changed to low knobs. Blades and lever caps have not been marked, so they have all been around the planes they will fit on. Some semblance of is order is kept, but they are mine and they are users.

After sharpening today, I discovered that one plane had the wrong size lever cap on it. It worked out because of another that was just recently bought was using one of the spare lever caps that was too small. So they were swapped around and all my planes are happy.

jim

I have that same issue with my Millers Falls. When I got it the adjuster nut was frozen. I could not get it to move. Finally I got the vise grips and got out the adjuster and stud. I could not get it apart. I then searched Ebay for a frog for mine. No luck. But I did find someone who had a #14 frog. I won it. I checked before hand and the blade was the same size. When I got it home I cleaned it up and removed the adjuster from the #14 and installed it on the 9C.
Threads for the 9C adjuster upon closer examination were almost gone. I decided at that point to see if the frog from the #14 would fit correctly on the 9C. It fits well.
So I have a 9C with a black #14 frog and adjuster.
Although someday I think I will want to put her back as original with a #9 red frog assy.
For some reason it bugs me shes not all original. :(
As far as Im concerned, I feel more at rest with a complete and original user.
A temporary frankenplane for me.