Ripping on a sliding table saw

[ed vitanovec]

I plan to buy a sliding table saw soon and had a question about cutting on one. Currently some of my cuts are approx. 2" rip cuts for face and door frames. With a sliding table saw can I do the rip cuts with the slider? How would one go about making this cut? Would you set the rip fence 2" from the blade and use the fence as a guide, clamp the stock to the sliding table and make the cut? Thanks for any input you all give me.

Regards!
Ed

[glenn bradley]

Jim Becker, Jim Becker . . . the gray phone please.

[keith ouellette]

make sure you buy a good one.

The first unit I had was a combination machine that had a sliding table for the saw. I thought it would be great. I was wrong. The adjustments were terrible. I could not get the sliding table in the same plane as the main table so nothing was square and it would not stay parallel to the blade.

make sure the one you buy can be adjusted correctly.

[Jim O'Dell]

Again, Jim Becker, and probably others, will have the first hand knowledge to answer this properly. But my understanding is that for rips you use the saw like a normal table saw. The European units have the riving knife for safety on rips. Now you could rip thin cuts off say a sheet of ply with the slider, but that's not your question. Use the slider for sheet goods and cross cuts, use the fence (Luke :rolleyes:) for your rips. Jim.

[David DeCristoforo]

Almost all sliders have a locking device to "fix" the sliding table. Then it works just like a "regular" table saw except that the supporting structure for the slider is right where you want to stand when ripping. So it is a bit awkward... one of the "down sides" of a slider.... With a slider, you can use the sliding table with a hook (also typically provided with the machine) to straight line stock... one of the "up sides" of a slider.

[J.R. Rutter]

Straight line one edge, then use the rip fence.

[Chip Lindley]

Don't forget to change blades. A rip blade for ripping! Not the same TCG blade used for sheet goods!

[Gary Curtis]

What David referred to as a 'hook' is sold by Felder, Knapp and Mini-Max. Only they call it a 'shoe'. It is simply a sheet metal angle bolted to the far side of the sliding table. Removeable.

You wedge the end of the board to be cut into the shoe, position the board to set the width of cut, and push the wood and slider past the sawblade. Simple and safe. Your offcut will of course fall the right side of the blade. It doesn't really fall because the saw table is solid and is as long as the slider.

I took a class at Felder in Sacramento, Calif. I owned a General tablesaw with their Chinese version of a sliding table. Had to make my own shoe since they didn't sell one.

Gary Curtis

[Andy McCormick]

I would just use the rip fence. I think using the sliding table with the shoe or hook is really only for straightlining lumber. Especially when trying to use it on such narrow stock. I think that you will find that it will be easier with the rip fence or a regular table saw with a power feeder. If you buy a slider with a 8 and a half foot slide keep in mind that when using the shoe and or the clamp to hold the other end they will take up some of that slide. You may have to cut your 8 foot stock to a few inches under that to get thru the whole board using the slider. Andy

[David DeCristoforo]

There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding the use of the ripping hook (or shoe) on a sliding table. The hook is used only for straightening boards, not for ripping widths. For ripping to width, the fence is used in the "normal" manner. Except for straight lining, the sliding table is virtually useless for ripping, the exception being when ripping sheet stock where the slider can actually serve a useful function. For ripping lumber, the slider is usually locked. I use my slider for straight lining but I do 90% of my ripping on my "conventional" table saw (Unisaw) where I can actually stand in the correct position.

[Steve Jenkins]

For the most part what David has said I agree with especially when ripping narrow pieces. HOWEVER when I am ripping wider solid stock for glue-up for a table top or panel I use the crosscut stop on the crossfence and another that I can mount at any positon on the slider. By using two crosscut stops
(one near each end of the board) I am able to get a perfectly parallel cut. The crosscut stop that is moveable down the slider can be adjusted out to about 26 inches wide.
I actually seldom use my jointer for edgejointing large boards since it is easy to straightline on the slider and I get a glue ready edge right off the saw.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I think a couple of the guys gave you the answer, but another thing to throw in the mix is the rip fences on Euro sliders, mine anyway, are extruded aluminum monsters, that slide back so that the fence can end at the back of the blade. Because the fence is about 4' long as is, this leaves a lot of fence on the infeed side of the cut.

I set my fence this way generally, lay the sheet on the table, and I am then able to square it up easily to the fence, before a cut is made.

HOWEVER, you would be shocked to see how out of square some sheets of ply are. Setting the fence like this allows you to see out of square before you cut, if you are pushing your crosscut fence with the sheet. You will see a gap either along the crosscut fence, or the rip fence. Easy to fix, just square it up to the crosscut fence, to nibble off enough of the sheet to square things up, them move back againt the rip, and have at it.

For solid stock, you really have a bunch of options. The standard rip fence is the most used, but I'd add that on heavier boards, I like to use the slider like you would on a sheet as it makes things move so easy.

I also built a jig that looks like a huge framing square that can really quickly and accurately parallel rip with out the rip fence if needed. I probably overthought it, and missed something obvious, but it worked for the job that I built it for.

I use a Felder, so all saws may not be set up like mine.

[David DeCristoforo]

There are a million things you can do on a slider. Your wide stock ripping example is one of them. My comments were not intended to preclude these unique operations but more as a "general rule" with a lots of exceptions. But for general ripping I still prefer a "conventional" table saw. I really feel uncomfortable having to bend over that big slider support to push boards through the saw.

[Jim Becker]

Jim Becker, Jim Becker . . . the gray phone please.

LOL

-------

Yes, you can do very nice repetitive rips using the slider wagon using a simple ripping jig setup once you've straight line ripped the material to get a good edge to start from. I do tend to do the narrower ones with the rip fence, however, just because I haven't completely moved beyond that particular method. Repetitive rips on the wagon using the jig are a little easier on the wider components since you have more room and leeway for clamping...which is probably why I still tend to do the narrow ones with the fence. Judgment call. But I will say that I prefer cutting with the wagon because it means a lot less work after the cut when the material is clamped down, cut slowly and comes off the blade with a very fine finish.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Take a look at these posts as they might give you some insight

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29871

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=34708

[Gary Curtis]

What a great opportunity for a writer here. There is no published literature on European (Style) Format Sliding Tablesaws. Nothing. I spoke and emailed Kelly Mehler about that fact when I was considering buying one.

Even after taking the class at Felder, I had it wrong about ripping with the "shoe". When a person is trying to evaluate his tablesaw needs and features of various brands, he or she needs a lot of photos and charts and descriptive text about procedures and equipment to really know what's up. Something in print and certainly more than what could described on a website or in a forum, although both are helpful.

Now that many of the Chinese machinery-makers have sliding tablesaws available, the topic will certainly become more common. Largely because these machines sell for $4K of more less than the European models.

Pardon my mistake about ripping.

Gary Curtis:):)

[Peter Quinn]

I seem to recall Felder and a few others (Griggio maybe?) selling a jig that adds a second mini outrigger with a parallel fence at the back end of the carriage which works in conjunction with the main outrigger to essentially create a fence arrangement via two points of contact for ripping repetitive long thin widths using the carriage. Several clamps were involved also, and some sort of fancy system for insuring the two separate devices, one fore and one aft, created a plane parallel to the blade. I think the rear out rigger had a small fence and the cross cut stop on the main out rigger acted as the other end of the fence. I also seem the recall thinking a good cabinet saw would be a cheaper and more effective solution for ripping than said contraption. I use several sliders at work but have never ripped on one, doesn't seem like it would be much fun.

Looked something like this?

[Mark Bolton]

I have been thinking about fabricating that very rear fence/stop. Provided it wasnt very long it could simply ride in the slider T slot. A micro adjustable stop on that rear fence/stop would allow you to rip easily.

I had thought if you could make the stop on the rear fence a flip stop that swung completely out of the way, it would allow you to straightline with the slider and then rip without removing/installing the rear fence.

Mark

[Steve Jenkins]

The one pictured is similar to what I have for my saw and it does flip out of the way so you can straight line then rip to width but if you use the shoe for straightlining it has to be removed before you can use the flip stop on the crosscut fence to set the width. I generally straightline all the stock then set up and rip to width. my stop attaches with an eccentric lever to hold it in place so it can be removed and replaced or moved easily.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Not sure if you guys remember but the simple little jig I came up with allows for very easy ripping using the slider. It drops over the crosscut fence when needed and then comes off just as easy. The benefit I found is that since most of us have both the main crosscut fence + the smaller miter/crosscut fence for our saws, this set up allows one to rip and crosscut without changing anything. I like to equate this jig to using a meat slicer for deli meats;)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Not sure if you guys remember but the simple little jig I came up with allows for very easy ripping using the slider. It drops over the crosscut fence when needed and then comes off just as easy. The benefit I found is that since most of us have both the main crosscut fence + the smaller miter/crosscut fence for our saws, this set up allows one to rip and crosscut without changing anything. I like to equate this jig to using a meat slicer for deli meats;)

Paul, I have gotten a pile of useful ideas from your posts on sliders, thanks for putting your ideas here.

[Jim Becker]

I seem to recall Felder and a few others (Griggio maybe?) selling a jig that adds a second mini outrigger with a parallel fence at the back end of the carriage which works in conjunction with the main outrigger to essentially create a fence arrangement via two points of contact for ripping repetitive long thin widths using the carriage. Several clamps were involved also, and some sort of fancy system for insuring the two separate devices, one fore and one aft, created a plane parallel to the blade. I think the rear out rigger had a small fence and the cross cut stop on the main out rigger acted as the other end of the fence. I also seem the recall thinking a good cabinet saw would be a cheaper and more effective solution for ripping than said contraption. I use several sliders at work but have never ripped on one, doesn't seem like it would be much fun.

Looked something like this?

That's exactly what my shop-built jig does...it provides a second reference point. The workpiece is butted up against it and the the stop on the regular crosscut fence (at the same width measurement) and then the workpiece is fixed to the wagon with clamps. You can't go quite as fast as you can with a traditional rip fence, but you get a totally glue-up ready (or final sand/hand plane ready) edge right off the saw.

[Peter Quinn]

Truth be told my vision on the subject is probably skewed by my experience at work, where we have three straight line rip saws, five cabinet saws (all with power feed available) and two sliders in the shop. In this case ripping on the slider is verging on ridiculous. Just not the best tool for the job. And when each cabinet saw is parked next to a 12"-20" jointer, the rip/joint/glue sequence goes quite swiftly.

In my home shop I have only a cabinet saw and would trade it in a heart beat for a slider, and would certainly be willing to suffer any minor learning curve or inconvenience relative to ripping. In an ideal world it is nice to have a cabinet saw for some things and a slider for most things, but if you have to choose one, for me the easy choice would be a slider. I've been thinking about getting one in the next few years, and my silly wife seems to think I should SELL my cabinet saw at that time! I keep asking her "Do you think I can find a buyer that will pay for it but be willing to leave it in my shop?"

[David DeCristoforo]

"I've been thinking about getting one in the next few years, and my silly wife seems to think I should SELL my cabinet saw at that time!"

Well, Peter, you are painting yourself into a corner by taking the position that you "... would certainly be willing to suffer any minor learning curve or inconvenience relative to ripping." If you don't want to end up with a "one saw" shop, you need to abandon this line of thinking at once. You need to focus the conversation on how useful the slider will be but at the same time stress the fact that, for the most part, ripping on a slider is awkward, cumbersome and inefficient. You might even go so far as to imply that it could be unsafe because of the less that ideal stance one must take. If she counters with some of the arguments contained in this thread, you can point out that in almost every case, safe ripping on a slider requires some form of additional clamping and positioning contraption. The goal here is to make her understand that these machines are not necessarily interchangeable and should certainly not be considered mutually exclusive in any way and that you really do need both.

[John Fliegel]

When I first got my Minimax slider, I found myself going back to my standard table saw all of the time for ripping. Trying to rip on a sliding table saw using the rip fence is cumbersome at best and dangerous for narrow pieces. I found a simple but effective solution at solo woodworker.com. Simply use a squared up piece of 3/4" plywood as a secondary fence. I'm using a 19" x 24" rectangle. I put the 19" edge along the outrigger fence and the stock to be cut along the long edge. To set the width of the cut just add the desired width of the rip to the fixed length (19" in my case) of the plywood and set the flip stop at that total length. Push the plywood against the flop stop and the outrigger fence, clamp in position, then push the stock to be cut against the plywood. I can make safe, accurate and clean (ready for joining) rips every time. I use my slider clamps at the front and back of the piece to be cut, but you could add some toggle clamps to the edge of the plywood adjacent to the stock to be cut. After learning this simple trick, I'll never use my table saw again and I end up with much more accurate and cleaner cut than I ever got with my table saw.

[Bill Neely]

I have the same setup more or less with an upright flange on the end of the ply so I can clamp it directly to the crosscut fence. I did add the Bessey quick adjust toggle clamps and it was helpful.

[John Fliegel]

That's a good idea to clamp it to the crosscut fence.

[David Kumm]

Go to the thread on Euro sliders and look at the Fritz and Franz video referenced there. Dave

[Bill Neely]

I saw that video, fantastic idea.