Wood River plane recall?

[george wilson]

I went to Woodcraft yesterday,and asked to see one of these planes. They said that they didn't have any. I asked when they would. They didn't know,and said something was wrong with the steel blades.

[Dewey Torres]

No kidding...that is interesting. They haven't even rolled all the way out yet and problems already???

[Mike Henderson]

If true, that's a good sign - a sign they want the product the customer buys to be of a certain quality level or they're not going to sell it.

Mike

[glenn bradley]

If true, that's a good sign - a sign they want the product the customer buys to be of a certain quality level or they're not going to sell it.

Mike

Agreed. I see a recall as a good thing as the manufacturer has caught something that they feel shouldn't have happened and they are going to fix it.

[Peter Quadarella]

I was at woodcraft yesterday also and they had all the woodriver planes. They looked pretty nice actually - they were not cheap planes (not priced super cheap either). I didn't try to buy any though. I'm interested if anyone gets more information on this.

[george wilson]

Wonder why the stores aren't uniform on these planes? I didn't get much explanation beyond what I wrote above,as several customers were occupying the staff.

[Luke Townsley]

Wonder why the stores aren't uniform on these planes? I didn't get much explanation beyond what I wrote above,as several customers were occupying the staff.

No idea, but it is common that recalls might only affect some batches of a product.

[Jeremy Williams]

The WC stores I've been to in NC (Matthews and Greensboro) had all of the plans on the shelf ready for sale. Wonder if it was a recall, or just a bad batch??? Sure would like to know.

The planes do look nice, but I think I'll stick w/ LN or Veritas for now ... resell value is important and the WoodRiver name brand has already been ruined for me by some extremely low quality other tools they have released. Consistency is not there and they are ruining the name.

[Brad Patch]

If true, that's a good sign - a sign they want the product the customer buys to be of a certain quality level or they're not going to sell it.

Mike

A better sign would be a Quality System that allowed products to meet specifications before being shipped. I'll bet LV and TLN have a Quality system which ensures product integrity, but then again that does add to the cost.

[Mike Henderson]

A better sign would be a Quality System that allowed products to meet specifications before being shipped. I'll bet LV and TLN have a Quality system which ensures product integrity, but then again that does add to the cost.
You're absolutely correct. However, I bought an LN plane a while back that was defective. LN stepped up quickly and took care of it at no cost to me, including shipping both ways.

So even the companies we consider "best" occasionally have problems.

On another note, I was in Woodcraft today and they had WoodRiver planes on the shelf. The sales people said the planes were selling well - they had to keep getting stock from the back room to put on the shelves.

Unfortunately, because of some demands on my time, I didn't have time to examine any of the planes in detail.

Mike

[Let me also add that the cost of correcting a problem goes up as the product moves down the chain. So if you find a problem in the design phase, it's not too expensive to correct. If you find it during prototyping, it's a bit more expensive to fix but reasonable. If you find it after you've started production but before any customers have bought the product, you have an expensive problem on your hands but you can deal with it. The most expensive problems are after the customer has purchased the product. Finding the customers, getting the product back from them and replacing it to the customer is expensive, and you take a hit to your reputation. No company ever wants to have a recall. Quality systems are cheap by comparison.]

[David Keller NC]

"Quality systems are cheap by comparison."

Man, are you ever right about that. Too bad some business leaders don't understand this - think Peanut Corporation of America.

[george wilson]

Quality systems are cheap by comparison,yes. BUT you leave out the GREED factor.When I started buying things from Woodcraft in about 1964,they were a whole different company as to what they offered. Everything was German,Swiss,or English.

[Mike Henderson]

Quality systems are cheap by comparison,yes. BUT you leave out the GREED factor.When I started buying things from Woodcraft in about 1964,they were a whole different company as to what they offered. Everything was German,Swiss,or English.
Well, if you're greedy, you would use a quality system to avoid the cost of recalls so that you can make more money. A rational person (company) would not wish to endure the expense of a post sale recall.

A company which is not concerned with quality and suffers the costs of recalls is poorly managed, not greedy. Companies with poor quality, both product and service quality, usually do not do well in the market. Business Week has an article on that in this week's issue.

Mike

[Jerome Hanby]

Problem with quality is it's nearly impossible to measure. It's sort of like art, 'I don't know if it's art, but I like it". Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is all about the subject. I think the problem with many companies is they can't measure it, so they quit thinking about it. They aren't willing to make the leap of faith and commit time and effort regardless.


"Quality systems are cheap by comparison."

Man, are you ever right about that. Too bad some business leaders don't understand this - think Peanut Corporation of America.

[Mike Henderson]

Problem with quality is it's nearly impossible to measure. It's sort of like art, 'I don't know if it's art, but I like it". Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is all about the subject. I think the problem with many companies is they can't measure it, so they quit thinking about it. They aren't willing to make the leap of faith and commit time and effort regardless.
Doing "quality" is a challenge because quality is a human defined attribute - there are no units of quality. The only way we can judge "quality" is to ask people what they think of a product.

So then the question comes up, "Which people should we ask about the quality of a product?" The best people to ask are those who are about to make a purchase decision. Now you can't always do that so sometimes you ask some other people, such as the people who recently bought your product.

The next best after that is probably the "opinion shapers", people who are interested in the product area and are vocal with their opinions, because someone might buy or not buy your product based on the opinion shaper's views.

You also have to ask, "What is the definition of Quality?" For most companies, Quality is defined as meeting the needs of the customer. That definition includes all aspects of the product, including the cost, and allows any company to make a quality product - companies making lower cost goods as well as companies making higher cost goods.

A lagging measure of quality is the success of the company in the marketplace. That's not a great measure because it's not forward looking.

There's a lot more but the important point is that quality is not something you can measure with some physical instrument (like size). It's the opinion people hold of your product and/or service and you can measure that.

Mike

[Peter Quadarella]

In fact there is a whole system dedicated to the mantra "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it," called Six Sigma. Companies adopt this system and ignore (or eliminate) anything that is not measurable. It is widely used in corporations around the world.

[george wilson]

A problem with the Chinese,I've been told,is that they do not use or understand our types of tools,and especially machinery.You'd at least think they could understand a plane iron,though. Plus,they are under a lot of pressure to make things so cheap,I sometimes wonder how they do it at all.

A toolmaker from India was in the Gunsmith Shop in Williamsburg many years ago. He got into a conversation with my future journeyman toolmaker. He said they could make perfectly good quality things in India,but the Americans wouldn't pay for it. Subsequently,my journeyman got his company to make products that he sold. They are perfectly good products,too,and though they cost more to get made than the usual run of Indian things made to a low price,they are still good buys in our market.

There are still problems with delays,product development,and other things,but,by and large,the Indians continue to make good products for sale here,in this particular instance.

[Justin Green]

It makes me wonder why Stanley still makes planes at all... Had I started out less determined to use planes, their block plane would have soured me on the whole hand plane experience. Out of the box, the plane needs a sledge hammer to drive it through the wood.

[george wilson]

Justin,use a little sense!! A DEAD BLOW sledge hammer made of rubber would do less damage to the plane!!

[Mike Henderson]

In fact there is a whole system dedicated to the mantra "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it," called Six Sigma. Companies adopt this system and ignore (or eliminate) anything that is not measurable. It is widely used in corporations around the world.
I'm not sure if you're saying that quality has physical measures. A quality program eventually gets down to physical measures, such as how flat the sole of a plane is.

But the larger question is whether the customer puts any value on what you're physically measuring. Let's say that one company can hold their plane soles to within 0.000000000001 inch of flat, while another can hold their plane sole to within 0.000001 inch of flat. Is the first "higher quality"?

The answer is in whether the customer cares about it.

Engineers always want to say that quality is conformance to specifications - but the really important question is whether the specifications help you sell your product - whether the customer cares about those specifications.

So, sure, you can define quality to be anything you want it to be. But there's legions of people who shook their heads during bankruptcy proceedings and said, "But I always built a quality product." Yep, a quality product by their definition, but not by the customer's.

Mike

[Matty O'Brien]

Hi, I'm new here to the forum.
I just posted a quickie review in the other thread of the Woodriver #5 I picked up 2 days ago at Woodcraft in Canton, MI.
So, if there is a recall it may be regional, which seems weird, unless they have different batches of planes in different areas of the country. The guys at the Canton store hadn't heard anything about a recall.
BTW, I really like the plane and I have not had any problems with the cutter... YET!
I will post again if I do.

-Matt

[Tony Zaffuto]

Everything you've said Mike EXCEPT if you manufacture parts for the automotive industry. My company is fortunately only a "Tier Two" supplier, but even then you have never experienced a more convulted industry to supply.

We have just put to rest a sixteen month quality issue for a part that was to print but had issues because the customer's engineering was not robust enough (their words) but it still cost us a mid five figure amount because "we did not anticipate for the customer their lack of engineering". Go figure.

Even with some of the better tools available, most purchasers and/or virtually every experienced user expects to do some degree of fettling to bring the tool to their degree of satisfaction. I don't want to imply that price point is a barometer of finish and useability but it's definitely a help, as are these forums (except when emotions get involved).

T.Z.

[Brad Patch]

Problem with quality is it's nearly impossible to measure. It's sort of like art, 'I don't know if it's art, but I like it". Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is all about the subject. I think the problem with many companies is they can't measure it, so they quit thinking about it. They aren't willing to make the leap of faith and commit time and effort regardless.

Show me a company that has stopped thinking about the ability to measure things and I'll show you a company that's not going to last in today's environment. Quality systems as outlined by the International Organization of Standards (ISO) are a lot more than using a measuring tool to ensure size tolerances. The standards outlined in ISO can be applied to diverse business such as Bakeries, Funeral Homes and obviously companies that make a physical product. In essense the ISO elements strive to ensure that everybody in a company, using written instructions, is responsibe for their piece of a quality product. The old Inspection theory simply weeded out non-conforming parts. Its expensive to reroute these parts for rework or potential scrapping. Its deadly for a company to let non-conforming products get in the hand of the consumer. Bad products can and do get into the consumers hands, but there needs to be an established, written policy which addresses this.

Companies go to great expense to develop a ISO program and when their Quiality System has been certified by an independant agency they usually have a big banner made and attach to the outside of their building. Most of us have seen these banners but may not have know what they ment.

[george wilson]

Please note: I placed a ? mark behind the Recall. I don't know if it is a recall or not. All i know is that the Richmond store told me that there was something wrong with the blades.

[Jerome Hanby]

Companies go to great expense to develop a ISO program and when their Quiality System has been certified by an independant agency they usually have a big banner made and attach to the outside of their building. Most of us have seen these banners but may not have know what they ment.

I can only speak to ISO 9000, my former employer went through a massive program to become ISO 9000 certified. At the end of the day, it's just a bunch of guidelines and requirements like other similar "standards" and creative paper work comes into play. For instance, we didn't have one product that had a clear path through the ISO 9000 maze, but by squinting and documenting we had enough overlap between support, engineering, and manufacturing to fill in all the blanks. We were already concerned with putting out a quality product and providing quality support, the only benefit we got from ISO certification was access to more European markets.

[Mark Maleski]

"Engineers always want to say that quality is conformance to specifications..."

Not if they're Systems Engineers, they don't. Or shouldn't. Instead we use Measures of Performance/Quality which are based on operational use of the system/component.

Back to the topic: sounds like perhaps the salesman's word on the recall may not have been accurate - but I'm sticking with LN/LV anyway. Is the Richmond store still next to the Mongolian BBQ place?

Mark

[Mark Maleski]

Justin,use a little sense!! A DEAD BLOW sledge hammer made of rubber would do less damage to the plane!!

With a new Stanley plane? Better to use the sledehammer and be done with it.

[george wilson]

It's next door to an Everything's $1.00 store. Maybe that's where the planes got sent?

[Pat Germain]

I was at Woodcraft just yesterday looking at the Wood River planes. I don't know much about hand planes, but the Wood River examples looked very nice.

Pardon me for being cynical, but I'm wondering if there's really a recall, or some store manager is just trying to steer customers toward a product with a higher markup. You don't need a foil helment to consider this. Other retailers do it all the time.

[Editorial Mode] As for quality programs, yawn. A bunch of people get together and somehow get their standard to be accepted. Then they make money training people about the standard. They make money certifying companies who supposedly meet the standard. Then they make more money inspecting companies to make sure they're continuing to meet the standard. Companies build a Potempkin Village to appease the inspectors and it's, "Check, check, check. You're certified!".

Companies make more money buy charging extra because, why, they meet the standard. "We're level 5. We demand a higher price."

Meanwhile, every time employees attempt to follow the standard, management says, "We don't have time for that!" and "We can't afford that!". So, even if the standard was beneficial, it just goes out the window trying to meet the first deadline or the first budget constraint.

I'm surrounded by people with Six Sigma belts of all colors. It doesn't mean they can manage their way out of a paper bag.

Engineers can set standards and determine if they're being met. But only if management allows them to do so. Tragically, NASA learned this lesson the hard way. [/Editorial Mode]

[george wilson]

I know the owner of the Woodcraft store. No,he would not pull something like that. besides,they still had the Groz Indian made planes.

[Pat Germain]

I know the owner of the Woodcraft store. No,he would not pull something like that. besides,they still had the Groz Indian made planes.

I'm glad to hear that.

I hope we find out what's going on with the Wood River planes. They have the potential to be a good product.