SCMI/MiniMax, Felder combination impressions?

[Larry Edgerton]

?

I am contemplating buying the farm, well a small farm anyway, and moving my shop out of the comercial building and into the farm, where I would also live. Downsizing for our new "World Economy" if you will. :(

Anyway, at least for the near future I would have to get by with a lot less space, going from 9000 ft to 2000 ft or a little less. I am not excited about this, but I do like the idea of living on the same property as my shop, the cost savings that it will bring, and all the leasure hours it will create by not having to support my comercial location. It was a good run but I do not see this economy picking up soon for my area and client base.

So.... I was thinking selling my Porter jointer, and maybe the Delta as well and off"ing my SCMI 520 Tersa planerto conserve space, and buying a 16" euro combo {NO CHINA/Tiawan} with Tersa or similar to save space.

What do you guys doing woodwork for a living that have one think? Are they a pain compared to seperates, do you come up with a work flow that makes them OK, is the single set of knives an issue as they get so much use, these kinds of things.

If I buy this farm I will be stretched out until my current house and shop sell, but when they sell I will owe no one a dime, and then I could build a new shop/barn. But who knows how long the economy will stay down, I am in the automotive state you know......

Love to hear from you....

[David DeCristoforo]

Combination machines always represent a trade off. Convenience for space. It's that simple. If you are used to jumping back and forth from your jointer to your planer... forget it. You will have to "retrain" yourself and plan your workflow in a much more "linear" manner. Not saying that's a bad thing... just different. You will pay a premium for "Euro" machines but you will (IMMHO) get what you pay for. MiniMax and Felder are both excellent and well established in this country.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Larry, I farm for a living, not woodwork, so read no further if that is an issue.

I do have a Felder CF741, that I bought to replace seperates, save space, and increase quality. After running a half dozen projects through, over and around it, I'd say that David is right on with his remarks, and I'll add a few.

I think the workflow learning curve was/is fun. IF you go into this thinking otherwise, don't buy a combo. You'll hate it. IF you are looking forward to a bunch of maybe new thought processes, you'll love the combo. My first project was slower than when I built with seperate machines, but the chest of drawers I just finished was far faster and better then I ever was with seperates. With your experience, I'm sure you'll catch on much quicker.

I really like how the power feeder works with my machine. I can use the feeder for any operation, saw, shaper or jointer, without ever dismounting the feeder. Just aim it different, and tilt it out of the way when you need to. I love the electronics on the machine, and the precise adjustability. I do not like the particular dado head I bought, or the measuring tape for the rip fence. I built a cart to store all of the "parts", and I'd highly recommend planning on needing some sort of storage system for fences, spindles, blades, shields, mortisers, wrenches and the like. I really like the power adjust on the planer, and wish I'd got it on the shaper as well. Put it all together, and I think it is a machine that even a pro could appreciate.

IMHO, I think that the combination of serious pro grade machines in the footprint offered by a combo far outweighs the workflow changes, if you are willing to adapt a little.

Good luck with the farm!

[Paul B. Cresti]

Larry,
Downsizing!!! jeez man 9000 to 2000sf seems like a dream to me! I am in a 25 x 25 shop and I have a lot of stuff in there (10.5 ft slider, 16" j/p, 24" bandsaw, DC, shaper, edge sander, combo sander, rotary phase converter, etc....). The only machine I have mobile is my 16" j/p as it allows me to assembly large pieces when needed.

I had a separate joiner and planer an wanted a larger joiner. As we all know a high quality joiner is quite expensive and they tend to have roughly 8ft long beds...not the best situation for me. So I tried the combo route but held onto my planer just in case. Well long and short of it I sold the planer not soon after and I have never missed it. I now even added a mortising attachment to my j/p so it is a very versatile and space saving machine....but has it slowed me down???? NOT ONE SINGLE BIT.

Now I am the only one in the shop so there never is a line up...I assume you are by yourself as well?? If not the combo machine might not be the best solution.

Tersa heads....it is a better invention than slice bread! super sharp knives that are reversible and so quick to change that you will keep old knives on hand just to change for "suspect boards" Great thing about a real wide joiner is that you can skew a board just in case you hit some tough grain.

Now I have all manual controls on my j/p and am fine with that. One thing to consider is power settings on the planer side. Definately a nice feature but it is not a must have.

Not sure what kind of work you do but that may also come into play as adding more length to the joiner beds (my combo unit has A 68" bed) may be something you desire. This is quite easily accomplished by attaching demountable extensions as sold by Aigner.

I think I do OK in my little shop and my combo....take a look at the finished pictures I finally got from the GC...

[Mike Heidrick]

Paul, OUTSTANDING WW!

Man that toilet is UGLY though! WOW - BAD!

[Rick Fisher]

Beautiful work Paul.

I'm not loving the toilet either but the woodworking is spectacular.

[Larry Edgerton]

I should have specified a JP combo. I have an old SCMI carrage saw I will keep, and probably use my PM66 as an outfeed table so I have two saws, and I have a pair of MiniMax shapers I can pair together so it was just the jointer/planer I was thinking of condensing.

The 520 is huge as is the Porter, and really the DJ20 takes up the same amount of infeed and outfeed space, so there are three machines that require 32' plus of length to work @ aprox 128 sq ft each that would save 256' of space right there. I sometimes joint and rip rafters/joist if the job is picky enough.

Steve, I always listen to what you have to say, and value your opinion. I wasn't talking about a everything combo though, but it is a thought.
I would have a Felder combo now except I drove to Madison, Wis. to meet the dealer on a Sat., and he did not show up at our appointment. I had an attitude after that.:)

I wish someone made a combo with seperate jointer and planer heads/motors. I often run planer/jointer/tablesaw with powerfeeds all at the same time when prepping stock. Its kind of fun to keep them all running at the same time, and talk about filling a dust collector.....

Paul, thanks for the imput, that is the size machine that I was thinking. I don't need any wider as I have a 26" drum sander if I really need wide, and my SCMI 520 is 20" so not really that much bigger.
Very nice work Paul, and is there such a thing as a nice toilet?:) I think those bowls are a fad, they are hard to clean, but then most of the ones I have installed have been at houses with maids. I built a "dresser" for one that was solid amber with a bug in the amber. He paid more for the sink than I got for the bathroom remodel!

David, I suspect you are right, especially as I run both at the same time, but I am cutting down so dramatically on my overhead I can afford to slow down, if I can pull this off.
The problem is selling anything here in the state that is leading foreclosures, in fact the farm I want is a foreclosure. So I am sticking my neck out if I do it in hopes that either my house or my shop sells. Kind of scarry, and I have not put in an offer yet, but am close. I don't have a place for a garden where I am now, so that is very exciting, and the property has a wood lot that will heat the place indefinately, a huge plus on the independance scale.
It is where I want to be in my twilight years, that is a farm setting with no payments and a place to make wood stuff. Scarry times though......

Thanks for the replys, and am interested in others thoughts....

[Paul B. Cresti]

Beautiful work Paul.

I'm not loving the toilet either but the woodworking is spectacular.

Believe you me ...I agree!!! I cringed :eek: when I saw that toilet too! Thats why when I eventually post the pics of this project on my site I am seriously thinking of using my "done" photos without the fixtures in place...interior desecrators....gotta love um

[Rod Sheridan]

Like Steve, this is a hobby for me, however as shop time is a scarce resource that I treasure, I also try to optimize my time/work flow while in the shop.

I purchased a Hammer A3-31 jointer planer to replace an 8" General jointer and a 14" General planer.

The quality of the new machine is great, and I am one picky customer.

Changeover from jointer to planer is fast, the cut quality is better than the General, and I own a planer with no snipe. Not very little snipe, none!

I think that you will be very pleased with either a Felder or MinMax machine.

Next year, my General TS and shaper will probably be replaced by a sliding saw/shaper combo.

As is true with the Hammer A3-31, it cost less than the two General machines it replaced, and it has higher capacity and performance.

Regards, Rod.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Everyone is correct on the workflow changes with any combo but in my case it has helped me out. Now I produce custom one-off pieces so assembly-line like production is not my case. I plan out each step especially when I need to make custom molding profiles....after all I am an Architect and it is all about form + function ;). If you are willing to adapt a bit in that all pieces are jointed at one point and then planned at another than you will be fine...add in a Tersa head and you are golden! That said the time / effort to switch from one function to the next is so minimal that even if you forget something it is no big deal. The space savings especially for someone like me far out weighs any "inconveinence" in switching...

[Chris Padilla]

I have a 16" Minimax (FS-41Elite) J/P like Paul. I am a hobbyist so for me it was a question simply of space but also the idea of having your jointer and planer being the same size is nice. As we know, wide-ish planers are cheap...wide-ish jointers are not and most folks wish they could have matching sizes for obvious reasons.

Workflow is different but I wouldn't say that is bad or good...it is just what it is.

The Tersa head, indeed, is stupidly easy and fast to change blades on. I think the newer 16" Minimax J/P have 4-knife Tersa heads. Mine is a bit older and has 3 knives.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Larry, I think you may be happy with a planer/jointer combo. IMHO, these two functions are really the two that interfere with each other the least on a combo, IF your workflow plays nice. I timed a jointer to planer swap on my machine at 20 seconds a couple days after it showed up, so it can be pretty quick. I think I could shave a few seconds off now.

With my full combo, the dust collection piping is a bit complicated. Because my ducts run overhead, there is really only one place to bring the DC to the machine and still maintain workflow. It is set up so that I just unplug the dust hose from the jointer hood, flip, and plug a different hose in for planer. I think that having just a planer/jointer would enable you to keep a little more slack in the hose, and just leave it attached as you flip the hood, which would make the changeover even easier and quicker.

Have you looked at the Digidrive option? Looks pretty cool if you are going to be changing a lot, and want to set some preset stops for the machine to go to. Not cheap, but looks good. I just have Powerdrive, so I have to hold the button until the number comes up.

Too bad the Felder guy never showed. If you do look at them again, it's good stuff. Rods spot on with the complete lack of any snipe.

Have a good evening,

[Rick Fisher]

Well, today I called SCMI to find out where the parts are that I ordered in November. She remembered me, which was a plus.

So she said she would call me back in a couple of hours.... Nothing.

SCMI is really .. yeah.. When selling, they say.. "it comes from Italy".

When ordering parts they say.. " they come from Italy".

I prefer Felder.

[Gary Curtis]

Mark Duginske, noted woodworking author and former editor of Fine Woodworking magazine taught a class I attended at the Felder Sacramento showroom. I was evaluating the prospects of a combination machine by the two manufacturers you named.

Mark said that the split Felder Jointer/Planer, Saw/Shaper replaced five machines on his shop floor It would help if you could get 3-phase power so you'll have adjustable speeds.

As to Felder's Digi-Drive. That's Felders name for the automated cutter height adjuster on the Jointer/Planer. It takes 80 cranks by hand to transfer the cutter from the Planer position to the Jointer position. How many times in one day would you enjoy doing that? But the electronic Digi Drive costs about $1500.

I went the cheap route and bought a sliding tablesaw from General of Canada. As a beginner my eyes were bigger than my needs so I just sold the saw. I don't do so much sheetgoods work to require a sliding table.

Gary Curtis

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mark Duginske, noted woodworking author and former editor of Fine Woodworking magazine taught a class I attended at the Felder Sacramento showroom. I was evaluating the prospects of a combination machine by the two manufacturers you named.

Mark said that the split Felder Jointer/Planer, Saw/Shaper replaced five machines on his shop floor It would help if you could get 3-phase power so you'll have adjustable speeds.

As to Felder's Digi-Drive. That's Felders name for the automated cutter height adjuster on the Jointer/Planer. It takes 80 cranks by hand to transfer the cutter from the Planer position to the Jointer position. How many times in one day would you enjoy doing that? But the electronic Digi Drive costs about $1500.

I went the cheap route and bought a sliding tablesaw from General of Canada. As a beginner my eyes were bigger than my needs so I just sold the saw. I don't do so much sheetgoods work to require a sliding table.

Gary Curtis

Gary, you don't need three phase to get fully adjustable speed control. I have it on all of the motors, and I run single phase. Simple little twist of a knob, and shaper, saw and planer/jointer/mortiser motors all can be adjusted, independantly. I don't know what exactly is going on in all those Lense components, but it certainly works. They also provide incredible braking, and softstart. These are options, so you would need to order a machine set up this way, IIRC. I suspect that the motors are three phase motors, and that the controls are computer controled VFD devices, but I am not sure on that.

Digi drive is the Power drive, plus a bit of software that allows returns to a set planer height. It costs more then $1500 as well. If you just want electronic height, Powerdrive will get you that. If you want the software perks, you'll need the Digidrive. My Powerdrive equiped CF741 has a digital display that reads the planer setting. One switch for fast adjusting, and one for slower precise adjustments.

I am a completely biased reviewer, but I am sold big time on Felder. The only downside to dealing with them has been that some things literally have to come from Austria. Felder USA does seem to do a good job with their stock though, and I have not actually had this be an issue.

Have a good evening,

[Rye Crane]

Larry,

I have a MiniMax 520mm J/P it's their FS2 model. I love it, it's a beast and dead on accurate. The jointer table raises in one piece and it has
electric lifting on the planer table. The planer table also has two adjustable rollers that help move the larger pieces through it and it
just eats wood. The tersa 4 knife head is flawless. It also has the
mortissing table that attaches to the rear of the machine. You will need
to specifiy a 1/2" collett rather than the supplied 16mm one. It saves you
86.00 later.

Good luck with your transition, sounds like you have several balls in the area at one time, hope they all come down where you want.

Rye Crane

[Paul B. Cresti]

I am a completely biased reviewer, but I am sold big time on Felder. The only downside to dealing with them has been that some things literally have to come from Austria. Felder USA does seem to do a good job with their stock though, and I have not actually had this be an issue.

Have a good evening,

Oh I can think of a couple of other things that are wrong with them ;) sorry Steve I could not let you slide with that...besides I am completely biased too but in a completely different direction!

Larry check out thes past posts of mine....it might give you an idea where my loyalties lie (if my name does not give it away)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=33381

[Todd Solomon]

Another vote here for a combo jointer/planer. I had a 14" Mini Max jointer/planer years ago and sold it. Biggest mistake I've made, that machine worked flawlessly and had the Tersa head.

I then bought a DeWalt 735 lunchbox planer and a Grizzly 12" jointer. The two machines took up more room than I thought. The DeWalt planed beautifully but broke 3 weeks after I bought it. Ended up getting a deal on an Oliver 22" planer. Wow, that's one industrial piece of machinery, but my shop was more crowded than ever. I ended up selling both the Grizzly 12" and Oliver 22" planer, and got a Felder combo jointer/planer with Powerdrive. The planer table is motor driven to the height you like with digital readout, a nice efficiency improvement over the hand crank of my previous machines. I now have room for a wide-belt sander, which I plan on adding some day.

So I came full-circle and ended up with a combo J/P. I highly recommend both Mini Max and Felder, take a look and pick the one that suits you. If you're concerned about efficiency, I would urge you to consider the powered planer table lift models.

[Todd Solomon]

Larry,
I think I do OK in my little shop and my combo....take a look at the finished pictures I finally got from the GC...

Wow Paul, gorgeous bathroom! How did you do the curved doors and base? I recently made some curved pieces using bent laminations clamped in a form, and used Unibond 800. It worked very well, the Unibond is very stable and does not creep.

[Doug Mason]

I think David C. says it best--it's a trade off. I personally don't like swithching on my J/P combo. Hands down I would have separtaes if $$/space weren't in the equation--but as with most of you (who are also hobbiests), $$/space is a big factor. So I compromise (it's a trade-off) and take the combo. Very simple.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Oh I can think of a couple of other things that are wrong with them ;) sorry Steve I could not let you slide with that...besides I am completely biased too but in a completely different direction!

Larry check out thes past posts of mine....it might give you an idea where my loyalties lie (if my name does not give it away)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=33381


Paul, I understand now!:D Got a chuckle of two out of that thread.

Nothing at all wrong with the white machines. I do like how the mortiser mounts to the back of your machine. Honestly I don't know if a Felder J/P mounts the mortiser on the back or front? The full combo of course mounts on the front. It is easy to hook up, but you need to eat your Wheaties, or get the cart. I built mine. Back mount would be better if possible.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Todd,
Thanks for the compliment. The vanity is all out of solid stock; maple for upper, cherry for lower. Each door consists of 17 staves that are beveled, tapered and mitered. I could only glue about 3 staves together at a time as they were very hard to clamp. After all the pieces were together I "temporarily" assembled the entire pieces together and then did the "final shaping" via my Rotex. This process was repeated for both the top and bottom and the return to the wall. All staves were cut on my slider with a special jig. I have to say one of the most nerve racking thing was when I had the whole thing together I needed to cut the bottom and top perpendicular to the wall....this was done on a special sled on my bandsaw....thank god I have 24" of height on that thing because I used every bit of it.

I have used Unibond before ...very good stuff...but only on my own veneer and never on curved stuff before.

[Todd Solomon]

I have used Unibond before ...very good stuff...but only on my own veneer and never on curved stuff before.

Oops, you jogged my memory. I used the Unibond 800 for my veneers too. I used Dap Weldwood plastic resin for the bent laminations. Very different animals.

Ya, anything curved is pretty nerve racking. I had a more experienced woodworker that helped me with the bent laminations every step of the way, otherwise I would've probably pulled my hair out! After I finish sanding my project and finish it, I'll post some pictures.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

There are forums for Felder and MiniMax owners where you can get a wealth of info.

Beware of one phenom: Buyer's loyalty.
It's pernicious and is rooted deeply in the buyer's strong inclination to see the decisions they made as the better decision - period. Not all buyers have it but, some do.
Ya can't ever call any one on it. Not only will they not understand what you are talking about but, they'll react like you just shot their dog and are standing over its corpse laughing.

However, on those forums you'll find a wealth - treasure trove really - of information that'll help you sort out the bogs and fribbles and good qualities of the varipous machines.

Here is the FOG:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1

Here is Minimax:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MiniMax-USA/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1

[Larry Edgerton]

Thanks for the replys so far, its either helping or making me more confused. :) Not sure yet.

I talked to my brother about buying me out of the shop today, and he is going to see what his options are, and make me an offer.

We went and took another look at the property today, and the space I would have to work in. I"m really spoiled guys, this would be tough, but do'able. I would definately have to build a shop/barn if work picks up.

Another point is I just paid 9k for my planer, and in this market I'm thinking I will take a bath on that. The jointers are no big deal, but I have come to love my planer. It is amazingly quiet! 78db at idle, and you can still talk in a normal voice standing next to it when it is planing. The combos do not look like they will be so quiet, but I could be wrong. And that F1 would look so good with my 520! They have it on sale for $5995!

Are the Felder knives proprietary to Felder? I was on their site but my computor is really slow so I ran out of patience. I have Tersa's, but at least I can shop around, and there are enough out there maybe prices will come down a bit.

[Larry Edgerton]

Beware of one phenom: Buyer's loyalty.
It's pernicious and is rooted deeply in the buyer's strong inclination to see the decisions they made as the better decision - period. Not all buyers have it but, some do.

Cliff, I know what you mean. I used to tell Porshe owners that I really prefered my Miata just to see their reaction! :)

[Paul B. Cresti]

[quote=Cliff Rohrabacher;1059945]Beware of one phenom: Buyer's loyalty.
It's pernicious and is rooted deeply in the buyer's strong inclination to see the decisions they made as the better decision - period. Not all buyers have it but, some do.

Cliff, I know what you mean. I used to tell Porshe owners that I really prefered my Miata just to see their reaction! :)

I got a good laugh out of the obvious being explained to me...I had to even pull out my dictionary to figure out what the heck he was saying...ask him what he owns ;)

It is all about what "team" you are on...As much as it pains me to say it I have both in my shop....

Now just do not get me started on the NY Giants...they are the best team in football

[Paul B. Cresti]

Thanks for the replys so far, its either helping or making me more confused. :) Not sure yet.

I talked to my brother about buying me out of the shop today, and he is going to see what his options are, and make me an offer.

We went and took another look at the property today, and the space I would have to work in. I"m really spoiled guys, this would be tough, but do'able. I would definately have to build a shop/barn if work picks up.

Another point is I just paid 9k for my planer, and in this market I'm thinking I will take a bath on that. The jointers are no big deal, but I have come to love my planer. It is amazingly quiet! 78db at idle, and you can still talk in a normal voice standing next to it when it is planing. The combos do not look like they will be so quiet, but I could be wrong. And that F1 would look so good with my 520! They have it on sale for $5995!

Are the Felder knives proprietary to Felder? I was on their site but my computor is really slow so I ran out of patience. I have Tersa's, but at least I can shop around, and there are enough out there maybe prices will come down a bit.

Larry,
It seems like you are really struggling with this...my advice to you is to draw up your proposed shop, lay out the equipment you have and then go from there...it is not like you are stepping up in equipment here. I would say you are stepping down....especially if you are thinking about that F1! and as far as selling the 520, good luck if you find a buyer and if you do you will take a bath, as shower, a sponge bath, will wash your face, will wash behind your ears, ..........

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Larry, Tersa is an option with Felder. 78db sounds really good! Mine is far quieter than one of those disposable things, but louder then 78db I'd think. Maybe its just the DC that makes the noise, don't know.

Good point about selling your superb existing tools and if your going to buy the farm, you need the farm mentality, more buildings are better!

[george wilson]

Steve,do you mean LENZE motor controls?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve,do you mean LENZE motor controls?

That would be correct George. Sometimes I'm suprised that the disconect between my brain and my fingers allows communication at all...

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry,
It seems like you are really struggling with this...my advice to you is to draw up your proposed shop, lay out the equipment you have and then go from there...it is not like you are stepping up in equipment here. I would say you are stepping down....especially if you are thinking about that F1! and as far as selling the 520, good luck if you find a buyer and if you do you will take a bath, as shower, a sponge bath, will wash your face, will wash behind your ears, ..........

I was thinking about this over the weekend, and by the time I add what a 16" combo will cost to what I will lose on my sale of perfectly good tools, I am well on my way to building a new shop, maybe even enough to get it roughed in. I would be shooting myself in the foot. then factor in the time I would lose being only able to run one machine at a time, and the number gets larger.

Thanks for letting me bounce my thoughts off of you Gentlemen, you have been a great help!

Larry