Who would you sell a TS to

[Tom Majewski]

OK, this might sound dumb, but it's been in my head for a couple days.

I'm selling my 23 year old saw. About 6 years ago I tuned it up, replace the bearings, added a Shopfox fence, link belt, laminate extension table, and must say it's been good to me. I can cut shims within .001" per foot. But it's time that I get a shiny new toy, and I'd really like the safety features of having a riving knife/splitter and a blade guard (which I don't have now)

So the question is how much do I warn potential buyers, who, buy the fact that they are looking at a $200 saw are probably noobs, that a saw with a riving knife or splitter, and a bladeguard would be a smarter choice.
I'd even like to remove the Shopfox fence and put the old dual-pipe fence back on, but the old fence was a beast in the first place.

Should I even care? I'd hate to think about a neighbor having an accident with my old saw. I know hundreds of people sell old saws everyday, but for some reason this is bugging me.

And I shouldn't even ask, but has anyone heard of any legal issues of selling an old TS to someone who had an accident with it.

Maybe I should just strip the fence and the motor and toss tha carcass in the dumpster.

[Jason Beam]

Buyer's responsible for what they buy. End of story.

[Dave Sweeney]

Buyer's responsible for what they buy. End of story.

+1 That is if you're selling to a full grown adult and not a 6 year old.

[Thomas Williams]

This is an interesting question. When I sold my saw, a 20+ Craftsman, I found out a little about the buyer to see if he had a clue about what he was buying. In my case, he had a buddy who worked in a cabinet shop and had been doing some work with a table saw. I felt more comfortable.
I do not believe that you would have any obligation to tell him there are better and safer saws on the market. Explain how the saw works and I would explain the lack of a guard and suggest where he could buy one if he wants to. Also, if there is any unusual quirks about the saw, explain those as well. You do have to tell them about any problems that you know of and are not readily discoverable by the buyer.
Yes, I have heard of someone hiring a lawyer to sue the seller of second hand tools. I won't bash lawyers (I am one), but you do have to wonder about some clients and and the lawyers they find.
I think this situation is a good place for the old golden rule. Treat the person buying your saw like you would want to be treated if you were buying a used saw.
Who knows, the woodworker who buys your saw may become a fellow creeker.

[Brent Leonard]

I would tell any perspective buyer somewhat what you stated in your post. It is an "old school" tablesaw that doesn't have all the new and usually expensive safety features, but it is a tight machine that works great.

Most newbies buy used equipment that is a little outdated because it does the job and saves them money. If they fall in love with the hobby, they'll upgrade.

If the saw is simply UNSAFE, don't sell it. That's my opinion, based on my own conscience. I'm the type of guy who feels guilty buying something on CL for WAY under value from an unknowing owner.

Personal liability under the law? I don't know.

[David Christopher]

Tom, if somebody would have a problem with your saw they would probley have a problem with a new one and dont need one at all... sell your saw and sleep good.. your saw in not dangerous ( no more than others )

[Porter Bassett]

I'm glad that the person who sold me his used table saw didn't throw it away for my own good, because I'd still be using a Harbor Freight PoJ which was even less safe.

[Paul Ryan]

I have often wondered the same thing. About 4 years ago I sold a car I had for years. I had been through the motor 4 different times because I kept blowing it up. Every time I made it stronger and stonger but with more and more HP. It was a real screemer. It would easiler beat the newer vets. Well I decided to sell it. Along came a guy that was going to buy it for his 16 year old son. I took him for a ride(the older man) so he could see what it would do. I asked him are you sure this is a car for your son. He said I have a real responsible son and he is paying alot with his own $$ so i know he will drive sensibly. I asked him again are you sure. He said yes. So he bought it. About 4 months later his son totaled my baby and had him self in the hospital for about 3 months. I felt terrible but he know what he was buying. It is all up to you, can you live with your self if you know some one who has and acident with your old property? By the way this was not a neighbor, he lived about 60 miles away.

[David Bodkin]

If the saw is in good shape, and it sounds like it is, don't throw it away. That'd be a waste. People still safely use saws without riving knives, sawstop technology, and laser guidance systems everyday. While such systems can reduce the chance of injury they can not eliminate it. As long as the saw is in proper working condition and not in danger of exploding I'd have no fear of selling it. It is not your responsibility to make sure that the buyer knows how to operate a table saw. If the buyer is an unsafe idiot then he'll get in trouble with any table saw, new or old. Ther is nothing special about yours. I'm sure you're not planning on delivering it or moving it into his house even though he could have an accident on the way or sprain his back.

[Matt Ranum]

I agree that its the buyers responsibility to understand what they are buying. Shoot I still run my 1953 Rockwell/Delta saw with no guards or splitter. Its a dam fine saw and you just have to respect it.

[Chip Lindley]

Let us look at this issue pragmatically. TS-users do not have to qualify for a *TS license* as auto drivers do, for a drivers license. Sears does not ask if anybody is *qualified* to USE their tablesaws. Anybody can buy if they have the cash or credit card. When you sell an auto you do not ask what score the buyer made on their written and driving tests! Tablesaws are not firearms! There is no waiting period and no check for prior record of criminal tablesaw felonies!

If an individual's conscience is so heavy as to worry about how or what a buyer will do with the tablesaw for sale, perhaps he IS best to destroy it rather than worry himself into a mental ward!

I believe there is another issue here which bears scrutiny. Remember the woman who sued McDonalds because their HOT COFFEE scalded her when she spilled it? There is always an *ambulance-chasing* attorney who is waiting for a chance like that!

There are such individuals who not only do these stupid acts, but those that may spend wayy too much time dreaming up *sue scenarios* which might make them well off without honest work if the opportunity presents itself.

And, there are those *ambulance-chasing* lawyers who are more than willing to represent those poor *accident-prone* jerks! I dare NOT say that a seller being sued by a tablesaw buyer who cuts his fingers off could NOT happen. But, the likelihood is small, because the payoff of home-owner's insurance is relatively small. (not nearly enough to lose fingers over)! Those *injured parties* and the *counsel* who represent them would go for the BIG MONEY--the companies who make the stuff. There is big money is *product liability* lawsuits aimed at big corporations. Not nearly as lucrative from an individual's insurance policy. I would hope any reputable attorney would decline to take such a case, but during these lean times....YA NEVER KNOW!

When I was a kid a handshake made a contract! Doors were not locked at night. But, now in the 21st Century, perhaps its time to have yard sale buyers, and guys who want their first table saw, sign a disclaimer, relieving the seller of any liability from the time the tool leaves the driveway! Hmm....

[scott spencer]

Tom - As an alternative to selling the saw, you might consider parting it out. With two fences, you might be do better with it as individual parts than a whole saw anyway. Check Ebay... fences, motors, wings, miter gauges, handwheels, blade guards, inserts, leg stands, motor mounts, switches, all have some value, and many of these contractor saw parts are interchangeable between brands.

Even if you do sell it, I don't believe you have any liabilities.

[Tom Veatch]

...So the question is how much do I warn potential buyers...

In the absence of legal precedent, it's all pretty much opinion, but IMO, you're no more legally or ethically required to do background checks or otherwise vet the buyer than would be the clerk/sales agent at Home Depot. However, IMO, you are, if not legally, then at least ethically required to disclose any known defects or conditions of the saw that might increase the danger to the user beyond what it would have been when the saw was new.

As previously noted, that's assuming the buyer is of legal age and not obviously non compos mentis. Selling something like a table saw to a juvenile or someone in an obviously disturbed mental state would probably result in liability in the event of injury. But someone with legal training could comment more reliably on the subject.

[Shawn Buonarosa]

Just sell the saw to whoever brings the green. Its not a firearm or anything.
When someone hurts themselves with a tool, it's usually not the tools fault.

[Brian Kent]

As a courtesy you can print out the manual that includes safety procedures.

[Peter Quinn]

Who would I sell a TS to? Any willing buyer over the age of 18 with cash. Unless the saw has some damage that you know of that makes it unsafe to use as manufactured, I wouldn't spend much time analyzing the skills of the buyer. Not your problem unless you chose to make it such.

[Kevin Groenke]

There are a couple of used tool sellers here that take equipment on consignment. If such an alternative is available to you, it may absolve you of any potential liability/guilt?

Perhaps the inclusion of some safety/use books, videos would at least give a total noob some idea of what they're getting into. Maybe a gory injury photo taped to the tabletop or cord end. Obviously a reference to SMC would be invaluable.

-kg

[Don Bullock]

Tom, I had a similar feeling when I replaced my Craftsman table saw. My decision won't make you any money, but may ease your conscious some. I gave my saw to Habitat for Humanity. They were very happy to get it.

[Tom Majewski]

Tom, I had a similar feeling when I replaced my Craftsman table saw. My decision won't make you any money, but may ease your conscious some. I gave my saw to Habitat for Humanity. They were very happy to get it.

Now that's creepy-lol

I was just composing a post saying that might be an option, and then I see that you did it.

Great idea.

[Tony Scolaro]

This is what I had the buyer (every buyer) of a table saw Radial arm etc. sign. It is redundant and over done. It may not even hold up in court if the wife feels you are the reason her man can't work or visa versa. On the other hand it might and if it does work you will be glad. Casualness leads to casualties is a saying around here. Tony

The saw was perfect running condition a nice PM 66.


I, the seller, have received from , the buyer, scrap value, for a Powermatic 66 table saw PAID IN FULL

Buyer is aware that the saw is SOLD AS IS for parts or to be restored after seeking professional advice of his choosing. The saw is transferred without a blade and without means of supplying power to machine. All safety guards and adjustments and OSHA requirements to the table saw are to be buyers responsibility.

Seller disclaims any and all express or implied warranties, including merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. Seller shall not be liable for death, injuries to persons or property, or incidental, consequential, contingent or special damages arising from the use of the saw. There is no express or implied warrantees given, nor any claim to fitness of purpose by the seller.

Table Saws can be dangerous. It is the buyers responsibility to determine and evaluate and assess his and all people under his control skill level in restoring, operating, or any other activity with this saw which has inherent risk and danger. It is the buyers responsibility to seek competent help if he finds he is not up to the task he chooses to engage in with this saw.

The buyer has signed and dated below to witness his full understanding of the terms and agreement listed above. Buyer positively affirms and agrees to hold seller harmless for all consequences.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Buyer's responsible for what they buy. End of story.

Yep....any attempt to preach safety is a no-no and could kill the sale or a friendship. If they ask, it's a different story...then you can expand their knowledge.

[Jack Ellis]

I live in California and some of the zany things that happen here have made me pretty cautious.

First of all, it's my understanding that releases are generally worth less than the piece of paper they're written on. However I think Tony's idea of selling the saw without a blade and perhaps without a power cord is a great idea. Take a little less money and it becomes the buyer's responsibility to turn it into something that can cause harm. You've sold him a large boat anchor that he has to affirmatively turn into a saw.

Second, California has some very peculiar ideas about liability. A bar owner whose brother was involved in a fatal accident while DUI is being sued because he did not take away his brother's car keys on this occasion. Idiotic as far as I'm concerned, but still something to think about. Just hope the idea that you're responsible because you did not stop someone from doing something stupid doesn't spread.

After reading this thread and thinking about it some, I think I would qualify a buyer and not necessarily sell a power tool to someone who might not know what they're doing. Most people would likely assume personal responsibility for their stupidity but it only takes one bad actor to ruin your day.

[Dewey Torres]

OK, this might sound dumb, but it's been in my head for a couple days...


Yep... you said it in your words not me...

[Chip Lindley]

Yeah Tony! Now thats what I'm talkin about!...

[Larry Edgerton]

I would sell it to the first adult that has the cash in hand and a truck. Use tony's reciept.

Beyond that, not my problem.......

Tony, I made a copy of that for my own use, great idea.....

[Rod Sheridan]

I would fit it with a guard and splitter if possible before selling it.

Reading some of the posts in the forum, there must be a stack of guards laying around, free for the asking:rolleyes:

I wouldn't sell a machine with a known safety defect to any Joe off the street. If you sold it to an industrial user, you would know that they have the expertise to evaluate the safety of the machine, and make appropriate modifications before it's placed into service.

It's called due dilligence.

Regards, Rod.


Regards, Rod.

[Paul Johnstone]

Well, if you are only asking $200, you will have no problem selling it.

I'd mention to the buyer that it does not have a splitter and blade guard. I'd suggest that he purchase an aftermarket one, even if it was someone that should know better.

At $200, you are going to have no problem selling that saw. Why wouldn't you tell the prospective buyer? The only downside is that he might realize he needs to dump another $100-150 or so into the machine for safety. It's still a great deal.

Sometimes you do get screwed by doing the right thing. I sold a motorcycle to a guy, but I pointed out that it needed the horn repaired and the back brake replaced. I gave him a disount because of this. Well, I found out from his roommate that he just resold the bike without warning the next buyer.. Well, that's awful, but the blood (if there was any) is not on my hands.

[Kevin Lucas]

If I weren't 3 states away i would be at your door ) That's a nice saw and some one will sure appreciate it and any one that won't take advice is a fool.

[David Christopher]

if i weren't 3 states away i would be at your door ) that's a nice saw and some one will sure appreciate it and any one that won't take advice is a fool.


me tooooooo

[Peter Scoma]

The possible danger in using the tool is implied. You should have no worries.
Its not like you are selling crack:D

ps

[Neal Clayton]

do half of the people around here work for the folks who make those safety videos that industrial workers sleep through or what?

i first used a table saw 15 years ago in high school. i've owned two. none of those three had a blade guard or splitter or riving knife. the only time i've been hurt on a table saw was the knob falling off of the fence lever and the bolt threads cutting my hand.

are extra safety gadgets good ideas? probably. are they required for proper operation? no. in fact i've never seen a blade guard that would be out of the way during normal use, so i figure if i ever wind up with a saw that comes with one, that would be the first thing to be removed and thrown away.

i'm pretty sure that i've got better odds of being killed by a city bus or a stupid woman on a cellphone in a gigantic SUV every time i turn out into traffic than in my shop.

[David Christopher]

do half of the people around here work for the folks who make those safety videos that industrial workers sleep through or what?

I first used a table saw 15 years ago in high school. I've owned two. None of those three had a blade guard or splitter or riving knife. The only time i've been hurt on a table saw was the knob falling off of the fence lever and the bolt threads cutting my hand.

Are extra safety gadgets good ideas? Probably. Are they required for proper operation? no. In fact i've never seen a blade guard that would be out of the way during normal use, so i figure if i ever wind up with a saw that comes with one, that would be the first thing to be removed and thrown away.

I'm pretty sure that i've got better odds of being killed by a city bus or a stupid woman on a cellphone in a gigantic suv every time i turn out into traffic than in my shop.

amen brother

[Ed Hazel]

Have you ever been "qualified" by a retailer to before you purchased anything?
You don't have to demonstrate you can drive to by a car, heck I don't think you even need a drivers license to by one.

On my snowmobile it says right on the machine may cause serious injuries or death (not an exact quote but i ma not going out to look) and the retailer never asked me if I knew how to ride it.

I would not be worried in the least if the buyer knew how to operate the saw. The same can be said for cars would you not sell your used car to someone because the new cars have more better safety features?

[Mike Wellner]

Definitely not this guy:
https://www.active.com/images/upimages/GomerPyle1.jpg

[John Thompson]

Any adult that comes to see your saw can see it has no gaurd and is an older contractor saw. You can't hide that. When they read the ad you probably mentioned it was an older contractor's saw. When you listed it for $200 that should clearly tell the potential buyer this is not a new saw nor one loaded to the gill with recent safety options.

Anyone buying your saw should have done their homework in advance and know all this before they show up as buying it makes it their responsibility once they hand over cash. You cannot worry about if everyone drinks and drives.. how they punish their children.. etc. etc.. etc.. etc.

Sell the saw to recover some of your original investment.. buy your new saw for the reasons you did your home-work on.. and move on as life is too short to keep track of others individual actions which are not your responsibilty but clearly theirs.

Sarge...... who is not worried that my neighbor has been told that the tall pine tree next to his house that leans toward it should be removed. He is aware.. it is now his responsiblity.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

[Tom Majewski]

I first used a table saw when I was 12, almost 40 years ago. No blade guard. I rode in cars with no seatbelts or airbags. My parents drove while I slept on the back shelf. of a '63 Galaxy. I played in junkyards. We all lived and nobody sued. I take full responsibility for what I do. Look how many lawyer ae in this country, advertising all day - have you been injured?? Google "stupid law suits". Obviously I'm in a minority.

Warning lables from actual products: " Do not iron clothes while wearing them". "Do not insert in body" , "Do not use hair dryer while in bathtub".
All a result of a law suit- successful or not, on someone with deeper pockets and more lawyers than I have.

So now in a time when the cost of a stepladder is 75% liability and warning stickers, when everyone has insurance up the wazoo, when parents don't let the neighbor kids swim in their pool because they MIGHT be sued, I'm just wondering who will be the litmus test for a "used tool injury"

Out of spite to everyone who "ruins it for the rest of us", and to NOT stimulate the economy, I should just keep it and not buy a new one.:D

[Michael Weber]

Definitely not this guy:
https://www.active.com/images/upimages/GomerPyle1.jpg

Dewey, Dewey? Is that you?
:D

Take the saw to a local auction house. You might get more than you expect, be at least one level removed, and likely never know who bought it unless you attend the auction.

[Steve H Graham]

I'm a lawyer, and it has been my experience that a true idiot can always find a reason to sue, and many a lawyer will gladly accept an idiot's case, knowing it's worthless but hoping for a payoff. Suing is a favorite pastime of greedy morons with no morals. And judges are dumb and biased, and juries are stupid, so sometimes it pays.

I'd inform buyers that the saw isn't as safe as newer saws, and then I'd add, "Of course, that only matters if you're a pansy."

I no longer practice. There is no need to drive a stake through my heart, assuming you could find it.

[Rick Fisher]

My company sells tools. With display models, your at risk if you dont provide an owners manual.

We also have a rental yard and make renters sign a document stating that they have access to the owners manual before they rent.

If I where selling a 20 year old saw for $200.00. I would sell it for parts and have a copy of a receipt that states .. sold for parts only.


I get sued every year. Its life. I can tell you that even if the people dont have a moral right to sue, it will still cost you thousands to win.

Sell it for parts.. Let the buyer decide to use it otherwise.

[Jim Heffner]

I would sell it to whoever has the money to pay for it. I would not think that you are legally obligated to explain any difference(s) between your saw and a new one with all of the newest safety bells and whistles anyway. It is a "buyer be ware" sort of proposition when buying used equipment. If the buyer is seriously considering buying your saw, he /she
should check it out thoroughly and put it thru a couple of real world test
cuts to see how it cuts and how it feels for their own peace of mind.

If you have any or all of the owner's /safety manuals that came with the saw...be sure to include them at sale time. If they ask why you are selling your saw....tell them it is time for an upgrade, and you wanted a new one!

[Karl Brogger]

Have you thought about just keeping it? Not having to change blades all the time is pretty handy.

[Jon Knauft]

+1 That is if you're selling to a full grown adult and not a 6 year old.

The problem is my 6 year old daughter has more common sense then some adults I know!

I'm thinking of the video that went around a few weeks ago of the guy that started his tablesaw by spinning the motor pulley with his foot.:D

-Jon