Country of Origin and Quality of Tools

[Robert foster]

Does anyone really know where our tools are made and does it really make a difference in the quality of the tools. Many if not all tools made by (US) companies seem to be made out of country. Dewalt for instance have tools made in other countries as well as the US and they are usually considered quality tools. I wonder what makes tools "quality", the country of origin or the requirements of the companies that sell them.

Bob

[Jason Beam]

Boy you've picked a lively suject, Bob! We'll see how well it goes ...

Personally I pay no attention to the country of origin. Why? Because all generalizations are wrong (even this one). It's ignorant of me to think everything out of one country is automatically crap. It may not be in the best interest of MY country to constantly buy stuff from some OTHER country just because it's cheaper, but that has nothing to do with the quality.

Fine tools come from all over the place. China can put out some very good stuff, so can Thaiwan, the US, Germany, the Swiss. It's all about the intention. If you want industrial-grade tools, then you buy industrial-grade tools. That usually means you also PAY industrial-grade prices for them. There are a few gems out there, but far and away the majority of quality tools come with a quality price tag. It's got nothing to do with who made it. :)

[Bob Slater]

I have yet to see a shoddy product from Switzerland. Mind you, I don't own any Swiss tools.

[Tony Scolaro]

That was the first thought I had. I never used a shoddy tool from the Swiss. I do own a Lamello B jointer. No blanket statements can be made of course. I do ask what is the country's work, ethos, and value system. Is there a cultural tradition that quality work represent who they are as individual people and as a country. Instead is it what ever junk they can pump out to give them the veneer of respect they feel they deserve in the eyes of the world as an economic power. Tony

[Darius Ferlas]

I agree with Jason.

Any country can produce quality product. It's all a question of how much you're willing to pay. A Lamelo plate joiner is excellent, but it's at least double the price of the next one in line. There is no magic here really. Median income in Switzerland is about $81K, in the US it's about $50K.

Chinese make some garbage, but they also have their own satellites around the globe and nucluear submarines under water. It takes some quality work to achieve this. And then, look at the US, a prime example of how Chinese, Koreans, Russians, Poles, East Indians and so on are capable of making great products. One minor thing - they carry a US passport or have a green card. I don't think a green card works any magic on people i terms of quality of their work.

Similarly with Germans (where a lot of Turks live and work), French (where a lot of Arabs live and work) etc. They all make great products and they also make garbage. The reason is simple. There is a market for garbage. A guy whose needs are limited to building a shed in the backyard has quite different expectations from his tools than a pro cabinet maker, and we all also have pockets with varying depths.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

A friend of mine who died a few years was a remarkable gunsmith. One year he made two benchrest rifles that went to the US Championship Matches each owned and used by different shooters.

When he was showing me his shop the first time he said that this was the first Taiwanese milling machine he owned but as he was semi-retired (machinist and machine shop owner) he couldn't justify the expensive North American made stuff. The one he had wasn't the cheapest and it wasn't the most expensive.

In general you get what you pay for.....regardless of place of manufacture.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I agree with Jason.

Any country can produce quality product. It's all a question of how much you're willing to pay. A Lamelo plate joiner is excellent, but it's at least double the price of the next one in line. There is no magic here really. Median income in Switzerland is about $81K, in the US it's about $50K.

Chinese make some garbage, but they also have their own satellites around the globe and nucluear submarines under water. It takes some quality work to achieve this. And then, look at the US, a prime example of how Chinese, Koreans, Russians, Poles, East Indians and so on are capable of making great products. One minor thing - they carry a US passport or have a green card. I don't think a green card works any magic on people i terms of quality of their work.

Similarly with Germans (where a lot of Turks live and work), French (where a lot of Arabs live and work) etc. They all make great products and they also make garbage. The reason is simple. There is a market for garbage. A guy whose needs are limited to building a shed in the backyard has quite different expectations from his tools than a pro cabinet maker, and we all also have pockets with varying depths.

Maybe Grandpa should have stayed in Switzerland?:)

On a general basis, there seem to be more of what we consider to be companies producing quality tools, owned by companies based in countries where German is spoken, than in others. 50 years ago, the same may have been said about English speaking countries. No one freak out, I know this is extreemely stereotypical, but I intend no offense.

Asian based companies abviously dominate the quantity market, and do it well.

I know that the USA has the largest economy, and it still suprises me. What do we make anymore?

[Jack Ellis]

Remember there was a time about 35 years ago when Americans laughed at Japanese cars. They weren't very well built and it was a tough sell.

Today the Japanese make cars that are every bit as good as the American badges. Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans sold here are made in factories all over the world, and they're sold at reasonable prices. I realize this is another sensitive subject but my experience has been better value for money from cars with Japanese badges on them.

Sometimes you get what you pay for. Sometimes less, occasionally more. There's nothing wrong with manufacturing (and buying) stuff that fits different sized pocketbooks.

[Brent Leonard]

Strictly speaking quality based on country of origin, IMO, it cannot be done, tying the two together. Plenty of quality tools are made in Asia, plenty of junk is too. I would argue that certain countries are known for top quality and relatively speaking you can nearly always rest assured of the quality from those countries.

Speaking stricly of the benfits of buying American....... buying american protects your job, whatever it may be. It's a major source of pride for me to buy American, WHEN I CAN (which isn't alot anymore)!!

[Tony Bilello]

No one company or country has the magic bullet that makes a great product at a cheap price. Quality materials have a universal value and cost. If Company A has a remarkably similar product to Company B and they are made in the same factory yet Company A is half the price of Company B, trust me, they are not the same product. The sheet metal housings will probably be of different thicknesses and different quality steel. The same goes for the motors and right down to the paint job. Quality control is another factor.

[Bob Slater]

Bob Slater,ever heard of Rali planes? The worst planes ever made,and from Switzerland. Laminated sheetmetal all over,soles not flat. They were evaluated by Fine Woodworking years ago IIRC. I wouldn't let one in my shop. Horrible designs!!!

Well there you Go. Glad they make some Crap too.

[george wilson]

Well,I just deleted the post. I didn't want to seem negative. I was going to re word it: Google Rali planes,and make your own decision. Thing is,those planes have been on the market for many years.

[glenn bradley]

Does anyone really know where our tools are made and does it really make a difference in the quality of the tools.

Blind faith aside, no, it doesn't make a difference. I would love to think so but Made in the USA doesn't mean quality "just because" and Made in China doesn't mean junk "just because". It seems most manufacturers have an item (or 10) that they do really, really well and the rest of their line falls in there "somewhere". Shop by quality, model specific reputation and most of all the shared experience of an owner.

[Darius Ferlas]

Maybe Grandpa should have stayed in Switzerland?:)

Actually, judging by your name, Grandpa comes from the same country as yours ;)


On a general basis, there seem to be more of what we consider to be companies producing quality tools, owned by companies based in countries where German is spoken, than in others. 50 years ago, the same may have been said about English speaking countries. No one freak out, I know this is extreemely stereotypical, but I intend no offense.

I don't think this is offensive, but rather brings an important aspect to the topic. When we look at human effort throughout history it becomes obvious that quality of manufacture/construction appears to be cyclical. Take the Chinese. They used to make quality products when Germans still used sticks and stones for most of their "industrial" activities, and the English as we know them didn't exist as a nation. Nobody even thought something called America would ever exist - Nostradamus wasn't born yet.

Mayans, Inkas, Egyptians, Greeks were producing architectural marvels, some of which appear of much better quality that anything built in Germanic countries even today, and without a Unisaw or Ridgid in site.

Social conditions and ideology/religion seem to have a big impact. The protestant countries generally fare better as work ethic and money making drive found its way into the religious beliefs. In short, the protestant religions were shaped by the growing middle class or manufacturers and merchants.

In Eastern Europe religion shaped the merchants and manufacturers - they weren't exactly despised but often seen as too lowly to be allowed any impact on religion, state affairs etc. Still, they created masterpieces of art, albeit a lot methodically destroyed by none others than quality driven Germans.

Those enterprising minds which could not find fertile ground in their countries simple left to reach greener pastures where things such as communist ideology (as an example) didn't hamper people's desire to move on. Computers, for instance, were considered a product of the "rotten West" and "capitalist garbage". Now Google's headquarters are in Poland. Siemens is there, so is HP and just recently Dell. The same people, with the same skills live there. The only thing that changed is the political system.

Conditions people live in are also important. It is hard to imagine how a person living in a straw hut could understand the concept of high gloss paint, 0.001" tolerance in woodworking, or appreciate the benefits of Leight FMT Jig, which btw. costs more than combined yearly incomes of one or more villages in some countries.

[Dale Lesak]

One of the wood mags did a article a while back about who made what and what was better. what it boiled down to was some company's have their "Special specs" that the tool must be made to. special bearings and tolerances and such, Plus they have their own inspectors at the plants to inspect the tools being made. others just sell what comes in the mail. Don't remember what mag it was in.

[John Hedges]

What you have to remember is what the countries are geared towards. I have a friend who runs a sourcing company in China, and we had a long conversation about this very subject the last time he was in country. Generally speaking when a company wants to produce a product cheaply China is the first place they look. Why, because the labor is so cheap that they can do if for a lot less. Generally speaking this is a labor force geared towards mass production not quality per se. In other countries where the labor market is more expensive, quality is expected and demanded because it is more expensive. If not better, they generally don't stay in production for long, so they spend more time and money training the smaller workforce to build higher quality products because that is their niche. I have found of late that the products produced in Taiwan tend to be of higher quality than their Chinese counterparts. hence companies like Sawstop, PM etc. have moved there.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The president of Grizzley has actually posted here that to improve the quality of their products, he actually hired an engineer to live in the factory IIRC. This person is responsible to Grizzley for the quality of the products coming out of that factory for Grizzley. Again, you get what you pay for........ To say that everything coming from China or any other country is junk or jewels is a too generalized statement.

I was a "Chevy" man until I bought a full sized '83 Blazer. 5 transmissions in 4 1/2 years.....41,000 miles. It was manufactured here in the good old USA. Chevrolet's casual and callused attitude towards resolving the transmission and brake issues changed my attitude. I bought a 1 year old Toyota 4-Runner and drove it for 16 years and 163,000 miles before trading it off and buying a new Honda Accord.

Country of origin has nothing to do with quality. You get what you pay for.....

[Mark Bolton]

Personally, coming from my own business experience it has absolutely nothing to do with the country of origin. The country in which a product is manufactured means absolutely nothing. What means something is to what specifications and standards (product, workers, environment) they are manufacturing.

The simple fact of the matter is these countries are manufacturing to the exact specifications you the consumer tell the manufacturer you are willing to pay for. This is coupled with the maximum profit margin that manufacturer can extract along side your spec's. You cant expect much when a population for the most part goes the way of the yellow smiley face with all its short and long term repercussions over more quality choices. Now we are at the point where we have eliminated most of our "choices".

What is more sad is how proficient marketers have become in the past 20 years at making you buy what they can best extract profit from. This is the Wal-mart, Borg, model. These companies really dont care what you want to buy, they more aim to make you buy what they can profit from.

Even more is how in the past 20 years we have seen a steady degradation of what the average consumer seems to feel they deserve for their hard earned dollar. When we wander into these places saying "well what other choice do I have" its really a shame as we have eliminated our own choices. The proverbial shot in the foot. We are somehow to believe that we should accept poor quality and make up for the products shortcomings at our own expense. Home centers are full of these items when even 5 years ago, for just a few dollars more, you could get a quality product elsewhere. Now, the alternate items are fewer and fewer and in many cases simply non existent.

Its a tangled web we weave,
Mark

[Myk Rian]

I look for a "Made in USA" tag first. Price is not my first concern.
I bought some 36" Jorgensen bar clamps at the HoPo for $8ea on sale.
I also bought some Jet 36" bar clamps from Rockler for $7ea on sale.
Well, no matter what the regular price is on either one of them, I'll pass on the Jet clamps. Everything about them is 1/2 what the Jorgensens are. Bar thickness, thread thickness, castings. You tighten the Jet clamps, the bars bend inward. Junk.
I'll stay with the HoPo Jorgensen tools. Made in the USA.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Actually, judging by your name, Grandpa comes from the same country as yours ;)



I don't think this is offensive, but rather brings an important aspect to the topic. When we look at human effort throughout history it becomes obvious that quality of manufacture/construction appears to be cyclical. Take the Chinese. They used to make quality products when Germans still used sticks and stones for most of their "industrial" activities, and the English as we know them didn't exist as a nation. Nobody even thought something called America would ever exist - Nostradamus wasn't born yet.

Mayans, Inkas, Egyptians, Greeks were producing architectural marvels, some of which appear of much better quality that anything built in Germanic countries even today, and without a Unisaw or Ridgid in site.

Social conditions and ideology/religion seem to have a big impact. The protestant countries generally fare better as work ethic and money making drive found its way into the religious beliefs. In short, the protestant religions were shaped by the growing middle class or manufacturers and merchants.

In Eastern Europe religion shaped the merchants and manufacturers - they weren't exactly despised but often seen as too lowly to be allowed any impact on religion, state affairs etc. Still, they created masterpieces of art, albeit a lot methodically destroyed by none others than quality driven Germans.

Those enterprising minds which could not find fertile ground in their countries simple left to reach greener pastures where things such as communist ideology (as an example) didn't hamper people's desire to move on. Computers, for instance, were considered a product of the "rotten West" and "capitalist garbage". Now Google's headquarters are in Poland. Siemens is there, so is HP and just recently Dell. The same people, with the same skills live there. The only thing that changed is the political system.

Conditions people live in are also important. It is hard to imagine how a person living in a straw hut could understand the concept of high gloss paint, 0.001" tolerance in woodworking, or appreciate the benefits of Leight FMT Jig, which btw. costs more than combined yearly incomes of one or more villages in some countries.

Darius, Mom's dad from Switzerland, Dad's was from Poland. Me, now I am a full on American mutt. :D

It's interesting to look at the history of different civilizations and see the events that led them to their eventual fate. I personally think that many years from now, someone will be discussing times, and will be able to point out this point in history as a turning point for our civilization. Hopefully for the better, but I wouldn't take that bet.

It seems that the countries that have been held back for most of a centuary by communisim are finding their stride now, with a lot more potential to grow, while the mature democracies are stagnating. Interesting times.

As a consumer, it's great! Lots of cheap, good products, but I hope the damage done to this country is not permanant.

Sorry, got a bit off subject there.

[Mark Bolton]

Generally speaking this is a labor force geared towards mass production not quality per se.

As another post stated, China has subs operating in the oceans, satellites orbiting the Earth, a space program, and a very advanced civilization any place the government deems it in its own best interest.

The simple fact of the matter is the Chinese have the capacity to make anything we want. That said, we can expect them to supply us with Festool level products when the masses want to pay for Firestorm. I would guarantee you if Festool decided to move production to China with absolutely no reduction in quality it could be done easily. The simple fact of the matter is these type moves are almost always geared towards increased profits with a willful knowledge that quality will be compromised in trade.

They make exactly what we tell them to make. Through our dollars spent, and our corporate profit margins, they make exactly what we pay for.

We have brought this on ourselves,
Mark

[Bill Houghton]

Remember there was a time about 35 years ago when Americans laughed at Japanese cars. They weren't very well built and it was a tough sell.

Indeed. I am reminded that, when I was little (this is back when, to quote a Garfield TV cartoon, all they had were wood-burning cats), much of the cheap junk we found in San Francisco's Chinatown was actually made in Japan. I had a tiny little camera made there that (although I did some amazing things with it) was pretty junky. At the same time, the Asahi Pentax, Nikon, and other Japanese cameras were on track to push the German cameras right off the shelf.

Now, some of the Japanese power tool makers - Makita, Hitachi, etc. - produce tools that are considered top of the line.

Some years back, I bought a $30 bench grinder, made in Taiwan (this is before China was exporting much to us). It was unusable - vibrated right off the bench, and putting a tool on the toolrest was a good way to get a massage right down to your toes. I gave it to a foolish friend, and not much later bought a Delta bench grinder for about $80. It was also made in Taiwan, but the factory was meeting Delta's quality control standards, and I never even had to bolt it down. My contractor son is now using it as his bench grinder (I kept the Baldor grinder we got from my uncle - my son gets it when I'm too old to use it).

With good standards, leadership, training, and capital investment, just about any country can produce good work - the price of the product will reflect the investment.

[Brent Leonard]

It seems that the countries that have been held back for most of a centuary by communisim are finding their stride now, with a lot more potential to grow, while the mature democracies are stagnating. Interesting times.


Wow. Thats certainly something the bend your mind around.

I often wonder....

hearing the stories of my Grandmother (she was a rosie riveter while grandpa was in the Pacific) how the country turned on the industrial machine during WW2. If we found ourselves in a similar situation now, would we as a country be able manufacture like we did during WW2? Or would we have to buy our "stuff" from China? :eek:

[Blake Barr]

These threads make me giggle a little. The politically correct people come out of the woodwork to defend china etc and the good ole boys go on about American quality.

Truth be told there is a VERY good reason that products manufactured in these countries are of lower quality. It's because the companies selling the products want them to be. What it boils down to is competitive advantage and how companies compete for our dollars. When a company like say Harbor freight (read orange tools) decides to compete with the likes of Delta, Jet etc they want to produce tools at a lower price and they sacrifice quality to do it. They also decide to manufacture the products in China to save money.

Those companies that are competing on quality are more likely to be smaller, older companies (ie powermatic, rockwell). They likely already have investments in local production facilities and prefer local production that they can have tight control over. Their brand name is of value to them and tarnishing that image with the occasional mishap on quality. The premium brand allows them to charge a premium price so they can afford local labor along with premium parts etc.

There are middle ground companies as well such as Grizzly compete on value. They use foreign manufacturers to compete on price but then pay for better standards, more staff etc to up the quality.

All in all it's not because Chinese or Taiwanese laborers have inferior skillsets, it's that they products they are asked to, and trained produce are inferior.

There is something to be said for engineering quality by region though. Europe and America really do have the best stock of engineers, for now at least. Part of that is because our university systems attract the talent of foreign countires. Then the stability and high wages retain them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'm not defending China or other countries or their workers and I'm not trying to be politically correct. The price paid for a product will determine the quality of the product regardless of the country of origin. If companies are willing to pay enough, they can get a good quality product manufactured anywhere.

While the Europe and the US may have some good engineers.....recent trends for the best and brightest US HS students is away from engineering. There is more money to be made in other professions.

[Stephen Edwards]

With the International Standards Organization and the specifications for any particular product or process to meet ISO standards, coupled with an inspection process to assure that those particular standards are being met, what difference does it make where a product is manufactured? To me, it doesn't matter. As long as I can get the quality of product that I can afford, I don't care where it's made.

As for the jobs issue, foreign made goods still create jobs in the USA.

One of the most beneficial things about the internet is that we have sooooooo many more choices when we wish to buy a particular product, any product.

I do agree with the OP's comment about how we have allowed ourselves to be conditioned to "just accept" what is offered at places such as the Borgs and WM. However, with a PC (or a Mac!) and an internet connection, even people such as myself who live in a remote area, products of any level of quality in any price range from countries the world over are available with a few keystrokes on a keyboard.

It used to matter where things were manufactured. That's not generally the case anymore. I'm sure that there are a few noteable exceptions.

[Gary Breckenridge]

As I understand it if I buy products made by my neighbor he has the money to buy products that I make.:cool: I don't want to buy products made by slave labor, criminals, children or terrorists. Most industrialized countries can make any level of quality product. That said many products are truely international in nature if you consider raw materials, design, production and assembly. Switzerland has so much money that they don't have to make anything but quality products. China has so much poverty that they have to make all levels of products. Starrett, top quality measurment, is truly an international company. On the other hand there is the "Made in ....." label that brushes off with the first use.

[Darius Ferlas]

These threads make me giggle a little. The politically correct people come out of the woodwork to defend china etc and the good ole boys go on about American quality.
I think I am far from being politically correct and I think I stated facts. There are no supernatural powers that set apart an American or German worker form a Vietnamese one. They will both work to specs, and if they cannot cope another Vietnamese worker will take the job and do what is expected. In that you are right then. They offer the quality that is expected of them.

I also disagree, based on fact, that a product is automatically better simply because it was US made. Someone mentioned the superb quality of Jorgensen's clamps. While Jorgensen makes decent products, there are people who think some of their products are sloppy. Just check reviews on Amazon.

Back to political correctness - I would love all those Chinese jobs to come back to the US and Canada. After all both countries boomed when it was unthinkable we would be buying mostly Chinese. The way I see it is that eventually there will be simply no money left in the US to buy even the cheapest tool made in China because few will have any jobs allowing anything above basic sustenance.

OK, that's too close to politics so I better stop here.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks....I will remind you that political statements are against the TOSs and will not be tolerated. These type of threads usually don't last long because some folks can't show enough self discipline to adhere to the policies. Please refrain from any political statements or comments.

Now I'm off my soapbox.....

[Mike Heidrick]

Put it on CL. Price it right. Describe it accurately. No warranties, returns or responsibilities after purchase. Cash only.

[Mike Heidrick]

I don't want to buy products made by slave labor, criminals, children or terrorists.


I love all these comments typed on computers.

[Rick Fisher]

In the woodworking machinery business, Germany is still the worlds biggest supplier. Of course Germany is the worlds biggest supplier period.. So no surprise.

Italy is the second biggest supplier.

We are accustomed to seeing asian product but the reality is that Europe still dominates the industry.

[Rick Fisher]

100 years ago, we sent ships to poor countries to get raw materials, brought the materials home, and made stuff.

I live in Canada..

Today, we ship raw materials to poor countries to have stuff made. Then we buy the finished product.

Its a complete reversal of roles.

[Stephen Edwards]

In the woodworking machinery business, Germany is still the worlds biggest supplier. Of course Germany is the worlds biggest supplier period.. So no surprise.

Italy is the second biggest supplier.

We are accustomed to seeing asian product but the reality is that Europe still dominates the industry.

Is that also true for the hobbyist woodworker in the USA? I'd be surprised if it is. I don't know.

[Stephen Edwards]

In my small business, I make personalized metal license plate holders with engraved all weather plastic text strips with the customers' personalized message attached to the frames.

For 15 years I purchased the blank metal frames from an American manufacturer. Toward the end of that 15 year period the quality of their product declined significantly: chrome plating would flake off, scratched places on the metal frames and discoloration became the norm. My last few orders placed with that company were so bad that I had to return the product. I wouldn't ship it to my customers.

I pleaded with the American manufacturer to improve their quality. I was even willing to pay more for their product than I could purchase Chinese made license plate frames and told them so. They're attitude was take it or leave it.

By this time, several Chinese companies had found my website on the search engines and contacted me soliciting my orders. They shipped free samples. The quality was far superior to the American made frames/holders. I began importing the Chinese frames and have never regretted that decision. That was 5 years ago. I've never looked back. I get a vastly superior product for half the price that I was paying for the American made product. Furthermore, the service and attention to detail and communication is excellent.

It's a no brainer for me. Keep in mind that I did everything I could to continue to buy from the American manufacturer, even willing to pay their higher price if they would only deliver a quality product.

So, in my experience higher cost American made goods, in that case, did not equal better quality. In fact, I found the reverse to be true. It's a shame but it's the truth. So now, rather than buying the product from my neighbors in the NE USA, I buy from my neigbors in Ningbo, China.

[Rick Fisher]

Is that also true for the hobbyist woodworker in the USA? I'd be surprised if it is. I don't know.


The hobby woodworker is primarily using asian product. The big industry is still the shops. If you cruise through a decent sized cabinet or furniture shop, you run into loads of Italian and German machinery.

Even the hobby woodworkers buy european machinery. Maggi power feeders, Mini Max Band saws and all the beloved Festool sanders etc..

There is a new shop in our town that has about $10,000 worth of Import tools but has a full sized Felder combo machine.. loaded.. That Felder is worth more than all the other tools in the shop combined.

[John Sanford]

Actually, as a generalization, it is correct. Tools from one country will, in general, be of higher quality than tools from another. There are, however, two more factors.

Who are the tools being made for (i.e., the manufacturer/importer), and to what market are they going?

The very best tools produced in China and other countries in Asia generally don't leave those countries. Ditto for the most of the worst tools produced in Europe and North America, simply because there's not enough profit margin in shipping our crappy stuff elswhere. The same lack of profit margin is one reason why so few crappy tools are made here anymore.

The thing is, the very best, most precise tools in the world are primarily being produced in America, Japan, Germany, England, Italy, France and Switzerland, with the rest of the Anglosphere and Northern Europe pitching in some as well. None of us here are likely to ever see any of those tools, simply because we can't afford them, nor do we need them. At the extremes, some of the tools are such that most other countries can't build the tools to make the tools to make the tools yet.

Down here at the level of tools that most of us are working with, any company that has sourced manufacturing from overseas will tell you that it can be a signficant challenge to get the quality desired, unless of course they're sourcing from a country renowned for quality. Why? Because of different mindsets. On one end you have the proverbial Swiss mindset. On the other, a mindset of people who figure "close enough for government work." This can be especially problematic when a whole country works for the government... While you can always find exceptions, and the quality levels can certainly change over time (mostly going up), there is validity to the idea that Country A produces better tools than Country B. Part of it is simply cultural. Tools are a product of culture, just as, well, "culture" is a product of culture. Cultures change over time as well, some becoming more proficient at achieving quality, others perhaps less so.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Country of origin has nothing to do with quality. You get what you pay for.....

Too simplistic of a statement.

Other factors that drive cost on similar quality products from differing countries are shipping distance, local availability of raw materials, labor standards, environmental standards, currency exchange rates, government subsidy, import/export tariffs, etc.

Perhaps it should be stated as "you get what you pay for most of the time, sometimes less, sometimes more."

I bet all of our shops have some cheap tools that work really well, and some high end tools that have disappointed us...regardless of origin of country. I also bet that this is more the exception than the norm. None the less, each tool must be judged invidually on its performance and not on accounting standards.

-Jeff :)

[John Hedges]

As another post stated, China has subs operating in the oceans, satellites orbiting the Earth, a space program, and a very advanced civilization any place the government deems it in its own best interest.

The simple fact of the matter is the Chinese have the capacity to make anything we want.

Mark, I think your confusing activities around national pride and national defense with activities to bolster the economy. China will spare no expense on making sure that activities around national pride (space program etc.) are of the very highest quality. Just take a look at the Olympics. The same goes for national defense. However when it comes to manufacturing to keep a stable economy it is economically a different animal. Here they are geared towards mass production because of the size and cost of their workforce.

There is another angle to this which I don't think I've seen mentioned. If you are a tool company whose sole aim is producing the finest product, you would probably be hard pressed to have that product produced in China because of the general public perception of "Made in China" products. Could you imagine if Festool suddenly started production in China. Perception alone would probably lose them market share, whethere that perception is accurate or not.

Hope this is not viewed as a political post by the mods as this is not my intent.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree that you can have whatever you want manufactured anywhere you want, and obtain the same product.

The devil is in the details however, and you have to provide enough details to make sure that you are getting identical products.

The details of course are the engineering, the manufacturing processes and the quality control.

Oh, and you have to be willing to pay for it, something we've forgotten apparently as we embrace the big box concepts of mediocrity and limited selection.

I personally mostly own General equipment, because I have a strong "Made in Canada" bias, identical to many people on this forum who have a "Made in America" mentality.

Our quest for the 10 cent cheaper can of tuna has resulted in the loss of North American production capacity, and living wage jobs. It's hard to pay enough taxes to get the social benefits that are the measure of civilaization, when you don't earn enough money to pay much taxes.

We've sold our childrens future for a can of cheaper tuna.

I recently purchased an imported machine, a Hammer A3-31 made in Austria. Great machine, fantastic performance and quality. Well worth the money I spent, I had high expectations, and they were exceeded.

The made in Canada General equipment I have is also of very high quality and exacting standards, however like all the typical NA machinery it lacks innovation. (I'm excluding SS from this aspect of my discussion)

The cabinet saw has been around for what 70 or 80 years, an American innovation if I remember correctly?

My 2002 General would be very familiar to anyone who worked at Delta in 1940, a very sad admission indeed as NA manufacturers hadn't really improved the product in 70 years.

Compare that to a Felder sliding saw, and ask yourself how we managed to stay asleep for 50 years?

Obviously in NA we were willing to buy the same old, same old, and then support the reduction in quality (and price) that the importers of lower grade machines offered us.

Some of us voted for the reduction in jobs, quality, and innovation with our wallets, not to mention supporting some products that are patent infringements, or outright copies of products with expired patents.

Innovation and quality cost money......So does supporting the economy of our own countries, however it comes back to personal decisions as to those choices.

In my opinion, it's one of those "be part of the solution, or part of the problem" issues.

Regards, Rod.

[Bob Slater]

Very well put Rod. I concur with those observations.

[Robert foster]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how much the cost of advertising adds to the cost of the products. You and I pay for the advertising in the cost of the product. If a company advertises a lot ie. powermatic, delta. porter cable etc. the cost of advertising has to be born by the consumer. How much or what percent of the product's cost goes for advertising?
When I was in the grocery business we sold bread from name brand companies and our own store brand. Of course the name brand was nationally advertised and our store brand was not. We sold the store brand much cheaper than the name brand.
However they were essentially the same product made by the same company in the same bakeries. I witnessed them both on the same line at approximately the same time. One was sent to the name brand wrapping line and the other to our store brand line.
Another aspect of this is the perceived shelf life. We cleared out the store brand product daily while the name brand product could set on the shelf for three days.
Same product, different prices. different freshness. Different Quality? I don't think so.

Bob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Robert...please tell me there isn't a shelf life on woodworking tools!:rolleyes:

[Rod Sheridan]

Robert...please tell me there isn't a shelf life on woodworking tools!:rolleyes:

Ken, as I look in the mirror every day while I'm shaving, I've come to the conclusion that it's the operator that has a shelf life!:eek:

Regards, Rod.

[Wilbur Pan]

There is another angle to this which I don't think I've seen mentioned. If you are a tool company whose sole aim is producing the finest product, you would probably be hard pressed to have that product produced in China because of the general public perception of "Made in China" products. Could you imagine if Festool suddenly started production in China. Perception alone would probably lose them market share, whethere that perception is accurate or not.

Apple computers, iPhones, and iPods are all made in China. Apple has a strong brand image as making high quality, high end computers. Apple also has the highest customer satisfaction rating among computer manufacturers, beating the second place company by almost 15%. And if you thought woodworkers were picky about their tools, you should see us Mac fanboys. ;)

By the way, Apple computers, iPhones, and iPods have nothing to do with China's national image or defense, to my knowledge.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken, as I look in the mirror every day while I'm shaving, I've come to the conclusion that it's the operator that has a shelf life!:eek:

Regards, Rod.


You too? Whew! I thought it was just me.

[Robert foster]

Yep Ken, It's the Operator who has the shelf life and mine is getting shorter(69).
Bob

[John Hedges]

Apple computers, iPhones, and iPods are all made in China. Apple has a strong brand image as making high quality, high end computers. Apple also has the highest customer satisfaction rating among computer manufacturers, beating the second place company by almost 15%. And if you thought woodworkers were picky about their tools, you should see us Mac fanboys. ;)

By the way, Apple computers, iPhones, and iPods have nothing to do with China's national image or defense, to my knowledge.

Wilbur, I believe the processors and many other parts are actually made in the US. For a lot of apple products it is the assembly that takes place in Taiwan/China.

I don't really consider this a good example anyway though because every major manufacturer of consumer MP3 player and computers come from China, so I am not sure what your trying to compare it to. Additionally, computers and mp3 players are the epitome of mass production I was referring to. But I will concede that Apple tends to produce a better product (JUST MY OPINION, NOT TRYING TO START A RELIGIOUS WAR), but I think that's due more to the design (which is done in the US).

[Bob Luciano]

I have to agree with the idea people have voted with their wallets. I have a few tools from the 1800's. I have many that would qualify for a senior discount all US made with the exception of a General 350. There are few tools made currently that are made better. That is not to say the Europeans haven't incorporated improved technology. I think country of origin has little to do with the quality of the tools produced. I think the quality of a tool has a direct correlation with what the management of a company demands to meet the consumers expectations. It is reflected in fit and finish all the way down to packaging. Getting what you pay for is accurate in most cases. Seems lots people aren't honest with themselves when it comes to what they aren't paying for.

[John Thompson]

I'm a little late and not sure I can add much that hasn't already been said. I know the country of origin of all my tools... Germany... Taiwan.. Italy.. China.. etc. etc. If I had ordered them on-line sight un-seen.. could I count on a "Made in........" label to tell me of the quality before I actually saw the machine. The answer is No.

Are all machines froim the Pacific Rim the same.. The answer is no. Have a good look at a Saw-stop then look at a Sun-hill. Better finish on the Saw-stop.. machined to closer tolerances. etc. But the Sunhill is a good machine over-all at a much less cost. Why is that as both are made on the Pacific Rim in the Gee-tech factory in Taiwan?

Steel City owns their own plant in China. Can they keep closer dibbs on the design specifications they have requested by doing so? I think they can and do just that as they have Steel City engineers and quality control employees in place in the plant to assure they can.

I could go on and on as this is one of those kind of threads.. But.. I will only say have a look at the tool before you purchase.. compare to others along with the price and then decide what you feel is the best value for the amount you can afford to spend. Where it is made can be a tell about the book in advance but... doesn't always tell the entire story if you chose to read the whole book cover to cover.

Sarge..

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, I think your confusing activities around national pride and national defense with activities to bolster the economy. China will spare no expense on making sure that activities around national pride (space program etc.)

I agree with the statement about Festool and market share. There is an insurmountable stigma in the US with "made in china". I was merely making a hypothetical statement that if Festool made the decision, they could likely present you with two identical tools and you would not be able to discern the china made from the other. The issues of capability are not what is going on here.

The issue is that these manufacturing facilities have somewhat been pigeon holed by our corporate and individual decisions (I say corporate/marketing is the real blame). I dont want to sound like I am sticking up for the chinese as I have spent the last 20 years flagrantly warning about the very subject we are speaking. I have more than my fair share of reputation for being outspoken about this subject. That said, its not their fault, it lies at the feet of corporate and individual greed and unevenly weighting quantity over quality.

The simple fact of the matter is we are brining this on ourself. We are a gross consumer society who has lost all value in anything well crafted. This is a broad brush and it paints people who fall far from this stereotype however if you were too look at the majority we are a Wal-mart society, period. Never have we seen a parking where Lexus' shop side by side with a 30 year old Datsun that barely passed inspection.

I personally hope that we are on a precipice teetering on the edge and this recession jolts some percentage of the population into realize what we have done to ourselves. The all run around to the back side, and shove us over the edge. Then we can begin the process of rebuilding anew.

Other than the last paragraph, these are the facts, not my interpretation of them.

Mark

[Simon Dupay]

The made in Canada General equipment I have is also of very high quality and exacting standards, however like all the typical NA machinery it lacks innovation. (I'm excluding SS from this aspect of my discussion)

The cabinet saw has been around for what 70 or 80 years, an American innovation if I remember correctly?

My 2002 General would be very familiar to anyone who worked at Delta in 1940, a very sad admission indeed as NA manufacturers hadn't really improved the product in 70 years.

Compare that to a Felder sliding saw, and ask yourself how we managed to stay asleep for 50 years?

Obviously in NA we were willing to buy the same old, same old, and then support the reduction in quality (and price) that the importers of lower grade machines offered us.

Rod.
Why reinvent the wheel? like new coke and old coke, if it works then why change it?

[Mike Henderson]

Why reinvent the wheel? like new coke and old coke, if it works then why change it?
There are VERY, VERY few things that can't be improved.

Mike

[Larry Edgerton]

Personally, coming from my own business experience it has absolutely nothing to do with the country of origin. The country in which a product is manufactured means absolutely nothing. What means something is to what specifications and standards (product, workers, environment) they are manufacturing.

The simple fact of the matter is these countries are manufacturing to the exact specifications you the consumer tell the manufacturer you are willing to pay for. This is coupled with the maximum profit margin that manufacturer can extract along side your spec's. You cant expect much when a population for the most part goes the way of the yellow smiley face with all its short and long term repercussions over more quality choices. Now we are at the point where we have eliminated most of our "choices".

What is more sad is how proficient marketers have become in the past 20 years at making you buy what they can best extract profit from. This is the Wal-mart, Borg, model. These companies really dont care what you want to buy, they more aim to make you buy what they can profit from.

Even more is how in the past 20 years we have seen a steady degradation of what the average consumer seems to feel they deserve for their hard earned dollar. When we wander into these places saying "well what other choice do I have" its really a shame as we have eliminated our own choices. The proverbial shot in the foot. We are somehow to believe that we should accept poor quality and make up for the products shortcomings at our own expense. Home centers are full of these items when even 5 years ago, for just a few dollars more, you could get a quality product elsewhere. Now, the alternate items are fewer and fewer and in many cases simply non existent.

Its a tangled web we weave,
Mark

Thank you very much!

I was told by an employee a bit ago after I corrected some of his shoddy work that I needed to "Get with the modern reality" and learn to compromise. I fired him.

I do not accept tools of inferior quality, and I will not spend my money on things made in countrys that pay basically slave wages. My wages are based on my expenses, and part of my responsibility is to support people in a like manner, so I can not begrudge a man in Iowa, or Austria, or Italy or any other country that pays a living wage his due. If I was to buy a Grizzley, which I would not as I do not feel they are of comparable quality, I would feel guilty every time I saw it for supporting a regime who does not have the peoples interest at heart, and is not our friend as a country, beyond the business at hand.

I work with many nice tools, from my Lie-Neilson planes, my SCMI machines, to my favorites, my Japanese hand forged chisels. Each on has a connection to a craftsmen who made the tool, who took care and pride in the tool that he crafted so I could better do my job, and I in turn do my best to use those tools to give my customers something better than they can buy down the street, and certianly better than they can buy at the box stores.

If you do not feel as I do that is your perogitive, and as I am only responsible for my own life.

I do think that this, what I call personal greed, this need to get the absolute most quantity for our dollar, instead of the absolute best quality, has led us to the point where we are today, where companys like WalMart can export our jobs so that we can buy even more quantity of poor quality, at eventually, our own expense. I feel every trip to the box stores is one more drop of blood our country loses, but no one cares because they are only responsible for one drop.

As far as nationality, I do not feel it makes any difference. It is the nation, not the nationality. A man is simply a product of his enviroment, and given a different enviroment, will be a different man. It is national policy and circumstance that dictates what a country is known for.

What will we be known for in our childrens future.........

[George Sanders]

Most of my machines were made 40 to 50 years ago here in the states and I wish all of my tools were of that bygone era and quality. I love these old cast iron dinosaurs. I hate where the globalist bean counters and bankers have taken us.

[Myk Rian]

The problem I see is we are losing our engineers. No engineers, no design, no makey, no selly.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

The problem I see is we are losing our engineers. No engineers, no design, no makey, no selly.

I fully agree

I work at a facility that is all about engineering and science. First observation...engineers and scientists are to find. Second observation...everything is measured by money. Third observation...severe risk adversity in developing a physical product.

Outside of small private niche companies, I can not see how anyone can develop a woodworking tool, mass manufacture it in the homeland, and sell it under these conditions.

-Jeff :)

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Most of my machines were made 40 to 50 years ago here in the states and I wish all of my tools were of that bygone era and quality. I love these old cast iron dinosaurs. I hate where the globalist bean counters and bankers have taken us.

I doubt any woodworking hobbyist 50 years ago had access to these size machines for their home shop. If they did, I bet they were unique. Instead, handy folks like may Dad, and many of his neighbors, relied heavily on hand tools, portable power tools and perhaps some small machines made by DeWalt, B&D or Sears.

I understand the bean counter and banker issue, but improved casting techniques, improved alloys, better material understanding thru computer analysis and better design through CAD, have also contributed in the lesser bulk of machnes today compared to the old dinosaurs. It's like the old saying: "there's no substitute for cubic inches to get you more horsepower in a auto engine". Turns out, that was proven wrong too.

Further, these new technologies and design processes have contributed to the very robust machines that are available to the hobby guy today at an affordable price point that would have made my Dad drool. Throw in lower overseas manufacturing, and you get an 12" jointer at almost a buck a pound. And, the jointer may also have a better dust collection design, electronic readout, and a sweet indexed carbide helical cutterhead.

-Jeff :)

[jeff begin]

This is not something that a lot of people like to have an honest discussion about for fear of being accused of racism or xenophobia. And, of course, generalizations are not always accurate. Having said that though, different cultures do have very distinct styles of working.

I work in the engineering world where coworkers are very frequently foreign nationals. Most commonly they are Persians (Iran), Indian, Chinese, Arab, and to a lesser extent other Asians such as Vietnamese and Japanese. Without a doubt, engineers who are a product of the Chinese education system and culture are the least regarded. I've had conversations about this with both a department head who regularly hires engineers and with a Chinese engineer who was educated outside of China. They both told me basically the same story.

The Chinese culture--and way of thinking--very much discourages traits that are necessary for problem solving and "thinking outside the box." In school, everything is focused on rote memorization and repetition. So they learn to keep their head down and work hard at copying something. While they have an excellent work ethic, they have problems when asked to design something new or come up with a creative solution. It's not a racial thing, it's just the result of generations of imperial and then Communist rule that discouraged individuality. And if you aren't creating something--putting something of yourself into the product-- the pride isn't there and the craftsmanship is going to suffer.

That is why the Chinese are so good at making knock-off tools, microchips, DVD players, etc. But it's also why you see very little Chinese innovation in those same products. Of course, China is very rapidly changing and becoming a more open culture that increasingly values individuality. So things are likely to be different in only a decade or so. (Side note: In the new quest to stick out, many young Chinese wear designer clothing that are similar to the American variety, but have comically enlarged logos (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5283/727/1600/chinese%20mkt-%20prada.jpg).)

[Mike Henderson]

The problem I see is we are losing our engineers. No engineers, no design, no makey, no selly.
I can certainly tell you about the engineer problem. I am an engineer (now retired). For most of my career I use to tell people, "I'm not worried about getting laid off. There are lots of jobs for engineers."

But towards the end of my career, that was no longer true. Engineering work was going to India and China (including Taiwan). An Indian engineer would work for $20K per year and be well compensated in his/her county. And they are good engineers - bright, hard working, creative - just like American engineers. I have lots of US engineering friends who are under-employed but happy to have a job.

I use to tell young people - "Go into engineering. It's a rewarding field and you'll always have work." But no more. I tell them to go into law because that will prepare you for a variety of fields. It'll give you flexibility to adapt to the changes in the world and the marketplace.

Mike

[Wilbur Pan]

But I will concede that Apple tends to produce a better product (JUST MY OPINION, NOT TRYING TO START A RELIGIOUS WAR), but I think that's due more to the design (which is done in the US).

Certainly the design is part of it, but the manufacturing/assembly still happens in China, and if there were manufacturing defects, they certainly would be reflected in the customer satisfaction ratings.

[Wilbur Pan]

There is an insurmountable stigma in the US with "made in china".

So why does Wal-Mart do so well?

[Stephen Edwards]

Certainly the design is part of it, but the manufacturing/assembly still happens in China, and if there were manufacturing defects, they certainly would be reflected in the customer satisfaction ratings.

Agreed, 100%. To me, it's all about customer satisfaction. That's the only thing that counts. Many of us are completely satisfied with Asian built machines at the prices for which we can buy them. I believe that is especially true of the hobbyist and or small shop business woodworker.

Others are not going to be satisfied with a product unless it's made in Europe or North America.

As Wilbur says, customer satisfaction ratings would suffer if there are manufacturing defects in a product. That would be true regardless of country of origin.

Since this thread, and several other recent threads were started, I've thought that it would be interesting to do some "blind tests" of machines built in different parts of the world. Take any given commonly used woodworking machine and supply the most well known manufacturers from different nations with the same set of specs and engineering drawings for that machine. Specify that all of the machines would have no name brand or other identifying brand markings on them and that they would all have the exact same color scheme. In other words, the machines would all look exactly the same.

Then, have a number of brand loyal woodworkers all test the machines under the same set of circumstances.

I realize that ain't likely to happen. But, I bet the results of the tests would be surprising to a lot of people.

[Carlos Alden]

Jeff:

I think you've got it. I lived in China for a year back in 1986 and saw the tremendous variation in quality control and production on everything from train engines to socks. The only thing I would disagree with is the notion that Communism is somehow part of the deal. I saw quite clearly that the notion of non-individualism comes much more from the THOUSANDS of years of traditional culture going back to (actually prior to) Confucianism. In this regard the current government is actually more like an extension of the dynasties of old. Really nothing new.

But it's true that Chinese and Japanese cultures tend to produce educational systems that emphasize good test results and memorization rather than creative thinking. I recall, during a trip to Japan in 2001, reading about a huge national discussion about their traditional educational system. Several researchers had found that Japanese students, although exceedingly competent in many ways, were not successful on the world stage. His example was the high-level research going on in graduate schools in the United States. Creative thinking and formulation of new ways of looking at things were being done by Americans for the most part, which baffled the Japanese researchers: in many cases the best research was being done by kids who, in high school and undergraduate school, didn't especially show well in test scores.

As for woodworking machines, I concur with many posters that one needs to look at their needs then find features at a price point that gets them what they want. This applies to goods when talking about the Chinese manufacturing sector. It depends on who orders it and how much quality control they exert at the plant level, not a blanket "this is made in _______."

IMHO
Carlos

[Mark Bolton]

So why does Wal-Mart do so well?

Many reasons. On the customer side today's US consumer, through human nature mixed with ingenious marketing, is almost exclusively short sighted and greedier than ever. The majority mindset in the US only cares about whats in it for them and whats in it for them immediately. They don't think of how their actions now will affect them 10-15 years from now, forget about 40. The days of people being concerned with their community, town, county, are fading. They worry about what goes on in their own home, husband, wife, kids.

Its all about using any means to get the most quantity for your dollar rather than quality for your dollar.

If you ask many who go into Wal-mart they will tell you directly that they know most of what they buy there is junk and wont last yet the heroin concentration getting low in their blood forces them to return and get more.

The other is because Wal-mart has extremely aggressive vendor relations. They have no quams with driving a vendor to produce the product they want. If you chose, there are reams of information about companies having virtually no choice but to conform to Wal-marts "requests" or likely face ruin. From pickles to pillow cases there are companies who have been, lets say, affected. After that they have no problem aiding companies in setting up shop in areas of the world that will allow them to manufacture product for the price Wal-mart wants to pay.

The US consumer quickly forgets that while WM was getting its foundations touting the "American Products" they were caught having "Made in the US" labels sewn into garments made over seas. This was all over the news, but the heroin they produce is so clean it overpowers the consumer.

Here, we talk about customer service, quality of product, blah blah blah. Yet you walk into HD, Lowes, WM, and *poof*. The Will-e-Coyote googlie spiral eyes go on.

Mark

[William Falberg]

I agree. We have the ability to innovate. Every garage in America houses an inventor/engineer but we're losing our manufacturing expertise to off-shore factories with cheap, well-trained workforces with qualified industrial engineers who can turn ideas into products. The longer we continue to outsource, the harder it's going to be to re-start an industrial base. I think the current economic crisis is going to bring a lot of those jobs back as globalization narrows the gap in internatinal wage structures. We may already be seeing signs of this with the Big Three auto bailouts and the union concessions already in the works. In the Main St. economy, as it stands now, we're "between jobs". Bad as it may sound - I don't see a manufacturing come-back until American manufacturers can sell American-made products to the emerging industrial nations as cheaply as they can sell stuff to us. Between then and now there's going to be some pain. I had to lay off my own sons until that day happens. Part of the cure depends on how soon we get collectively pissed and start competing head-to-head, price-wise with the foreign competition. There's a tendency toward that direction happening now with doubling of hits I get from overseas companies lookng at band saws and the indications I'm hearing from American entrepreneurs who see domestic sources as more viable alternatives, so all is not lost yet. We have a new government that promises *change*. It's all in the details now. From my standpoint in the niche tool manufacturing business it's only a matter of time before the pendulum swings back and the American drive to improve on "what is" re-asserts itself competitively on the international market. How much time will depend on how well our experiment with socialism works out.

[Mark Bolton]

Just to clarify, when I read back and said "you" walk into HD, Lowes, I didnt mean you specifically. Not implying anything personal.

Mark

[Mark Bolton]

The longer we continue to outsource, the harder it's going to be to re-start an industrial base.

What I find hard about the problem is that we are likely never going to be able to compete with the likes of China, India, and other countries on a commodity level (the average walmart item for instance) that dont operate on the same field as us. This is with regards to EPA, OSHA, General business overhead, and quality standards. The only way to level the field is either to drop our prices to a level which would be unsustainable, or assess tariff's on their products. Neither is going to happen.

Whats worse is the masses are drunk on price as opposed to quality. While there are still many who wont, the vast majority today are much less focused on quality even if its only slightly more expensive. We live in a time when a dishwasher or other major kitchen appliance only lasting 5 years is not uncommon, nor complained about. The costs associated with returning to quality products are huge and then there is the question if they would sell any better.

I really feel that the last 20 years has affected massive change in the minds of the average consumer that is going to be extremely difficult for US manufacturing to accommodate.

While some of it is due to escalating costs, there are several other reasons that tool manufacturers, and many manufacturers have gone overseas. Maintaining corporate profits, while slightly lowering prices or at least keeping them level are a couple.

Mark

[Mark Bolton]

[QUOTE=Larry Edgerton;1059604]Thank you very much!

I was told by an employee a bit ago after I corrected some of his shoddy work that I needed to "Get with the modern reality" and learn to compromise. I fired him. [QUOTE/]

That gave me a real laugh. While we are still covered with work, we have gone back to a 2 person operation with a few we can grab part time if needed. I would love nothing more than to have a couple full time guys but I am so sick of hearing "They will never see that", or "Its going to be covered anyway", and the like.

I understand it takes time but very few, well none, we have found are really interested in absorbing the concept that its really not that difficult to just take the time to make it right. Most in the trade today cant phathom the thought of apprenticing for a year or two. I dont think most understand the concept.

I am not interested in having to run around behind everyone checking their work before they cover it up. I dont mind doing it for a while but you have to see that they are picking up the beat. I am also not willing to live with the quality concessions that go along with being an absentee contractor and fielding all the complaints once the work is done, and done poorly.

I still always have an eye out for someone who seems to have the spark. I may be 80 by the time I find one but I keep scanning the horizon.

Mark

[William Falberg]

"What I find hard about the problem is that we are likely never going to be able to compete with the likes of China, India, and other countries on a commodity level (the average walmart item for instance) that
###### dont operate on the same field as us. ############
This is with regards to EPA, OSHA, General business overhead, and quality standards. The only way to level the field is either to drop our prices to a level which would be unsustainable, or assess tariff's on their products. Neither is going to happen."

That's true - but for how much longer? In my own search for die-cast wheels I'm finding the same price break down from China, Taiwan, and India as it is from domestic sources. Factor in the shipping and I'm looking at only one logical choice - USA. On the other hand there's upward pressure on the cost of off-shore goods as their economic realities mirror our own. Globalization is still a long, hard way off; but continues to march inexorably towards our shore. Who knows how it will all work itself out but I think it's inevitable now; with the internet accessible to every child in the world. "How are you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paris?" Don'tcha just HATE change? I sure do!

[Mark Bolton]

That's true - but for how much longer? In my own search for die-cast wheels I'm finding the same price break down from China, Taiwan, and India as it is from domestic sources. Factor in the shipping and I'm looking at only one logical choice - USA. On the other hand there's upward pressure on the cost of off-shore goods as their economic realities mirror our own. Globalization is still a long, hard way off; but continues to march inexorably towards our shore. Who knows how it will all work itself out but I think it's inevitable now; with the internet accessible to every child in the world. "How are you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paris?" Don'tcha just HATE change? I sure do!

I like your take on it. Makes me feel better.

Mark

[paul dyar]

You can't do anything about where the tool is made as an individual. I just ordered a jointer from Grizzly.I did a lot of looking and soul searching before I did. You can't find much that is not made in china. My wife bought a box of chocolate this past Christmas and I was reading the package; and it was made in china. I was a little leery about eating it. It is not all just about quality; it is about jobs. The jointer may be a good machine, but I would be more proud if it was made in the USA.

paul

[Larry Edgerton]

[quote=Larry Edgerton;1059604]Thank you very much!

I was told by an employee a bit ago after I corrected some of his shoddy work that I needed to "Get with the modern reality" and learn to compromise. I fired him. [QUOTE/]

That gave me a real laugh. While we are still covered with work, we have gone back to a 2 person operation with a few we can grab part time if needed. I would love nothing more than to have a couple full time guys but I am so sick of hearing "They will never see that", or "Its going to be covered anyway", and the like.

I understand it takes time but very few, well none, we have found are really interested in absorbing the concept that its really not that difficult to just take the time to make it right. Most in the trade today cant phathom the thought of apprenticing for a year or two. I dont think most understand the concept.

I am not interested in having to run around behind everyone checking their work before they cover it up. I dont mind doing it for a while but you have to see that they are picking up the beat. I am also not willing to live with the quality concessions that go along with being an absentee contractor and fielding all the complaints once the work is done, and done poorly.

I still always have an eye out for someone who seems to have the spark. I may be 80 by the time I find one but I keep scanning the horizon.

Mark

There was a time, and not that long ago when I had twelve men working, and it was a pair of dream crews. I worked on both crews, and they were good enough that I could still work every day, they just handled the small stuff, and nothing was ever stolen, tools were not broken, customers were not pissed off. Five of the twelve had builders licences, so with mine we had six. I did not treat them like employees, but more like partners, and I paid them very well indeed, in fact I only made money on the unlicensed guys. One of them told me it was like being part of a co-op, one where everyone pulled their own weight. It was a riot to go to work!

Want to guess the average age of our group? Fifty two!

I have not been able to find any young people that want to work, or who give a damn about quality and pride.

My last good year we did just over 2 mil in gross receipts. That was 2000. They are all gone now, and I barely have enough to keep myself busy. I did one hundred and fifteen K last year, gross receipts.:( Michigan is in trouble, and believe it or not I have more work than most. I am taking the last man standing approach.http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

It sounds like I could work with you no problem at all. How old are you by chance?

[Wilbur Pan]

Many reasons. On the customer side today's US consumer, through human nature mixed with ingenious marketing, is almost exclusively short sighted and greedier than ever. The majority mindset in the US only cares about whats in it for them and whats in it for them immediately.

Oh, I agree completely, especially with the issue of shopping with only your pocketbook in mind, and not being mindful of the consequences of such thinking. I mean, you see this sort of thinking here on SMC every freaking day. "I know that I should use X number of fluorescent lights in my shop -- just looking for a cheaper way to do that." was the most recent example I just saw.

My main point was you had said that


There is an insurmountable stigma in the US with "made in china".

Obviously, that stigma isn't insurmountable, or Festool would be the number one seller of handheld power tools in the US.

[Mark Bolton]

Well,
I made that statement in response to someone purchasing a Festool that was now manufactured in China. For the foreseeable future there will, I feel, be a major stigma with China and tools. Again, as I have already stated, I think its unfair to label China as the blame for these tools. They are merely producing what they are paid to produce buy our purchasing dollar.

With other things, like clothing, electronics, and the like. China is such the norm, and in all reality, brutally difficult to avoid, that most just give in.

Mark

[Larry Edgerton]

The way I look at these things, I build houses for American customers, and so my first loyalty is to that customer base. My second loyalty is to nations that compete with my customer base on an even playing field, in other words a living wage, no child labor, safe working conditions, etc.

You may not agree with me, but then I do not really care who does or doesn't, I am only responsible for my own charma.....

We may well be in a time of a global economy, but I still feel my first loyalties are to my own....

[John Sanford]

Frankly, I find the bashing of the American consumer to be incredibly ironic and shortsighted, given that it amounts to little more than bashing ourselves. 'Tis especially silly when y'all compare the products made in the US 50 years ago with the products "made in China" today.

What am I getting at? 50 years ago, the consumer was far more likely to buy a product that they expected to keep 10-20 years or more. As a result, the manufacturers built the products far more robustly.

Today, how many Creekers have replaced a perfectly functional car with a newer one? Howza bout replacing a stereo because you "want a better one", or replacing your tools that still work just as well as they did when new with the latest and greatest?

North American manufacturers don't make tools built for the consumer market to last 50 years because very, very few of their customers intend to keep them more than 10. And frankly, in an environment where technology is advancing as rapidly as it is, why should they? The top tier American electronics manufacturers have clearly demonstrated that you can build electronics that last 20 or 30 years. Just look at the electronics in our aircraft and ships. Yet, it would be economic foolishness to spend the amount of money necessary to build consumer electronics to that level, because consumer electronics are replaced every 3-7 years, even when they work!

American (and to a lesser extend, Canadian) consumers are frequently accused of being incredibly materialistic. That is such inane poppycock! Materialists (in the popular sense, not the philosophical sense) don't throw stuff away, they can't bear to part with their stuff.... we getting newer better stuff constantly... :D