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Lori Kleinberg
02-19-2009, 4:50 PM
Help me decide please; My current desktop is about 5 years old. Have done nothing to upgrade it. Seems as though some of my ram has corrupted (not as much as I started with) down to about 504 mb, not that there is enough for all of todays program, anyway. Computer is running so slow I am about to throw it out the window(house). By the way it recently crashed :mad:. I do not know why, but luckily I had most of our stuff backed up and didn't lose any pictures. I have just recently finished rebuilding all my files and stuff.
I have enough computer (tech) knowledge to be dangerous, and my husband is less tech savy then I am :o.
So the question is do I try to upgrade/fix what I have or buy something new. If I buy new should I get another desktop or go with a laptop. The computer is used for internet surfing like SMC, shopping, research, etc. We write letters, very light editing and storage of pictures, and we use Quicken. Also, we are a PC :p:D

Gene Howe
02-19-2009, 5:46 PM
Our son recommends a laptop for us. An HP G60T-200. He's a techie and that's what he uses. Runs all sorts of spread sheets, works with Photoshop, and some sort of satelite mapping software for his job in the AF. I'd guess it will handle what we need.
Our computer use mirrors yours except that I'll probably load Sketch up.

Chuck Wintle
02-19-2009, 5:58 PM
Seems as though some of my ram has corrupted (not as much as I started with) down to about 504 mb.
D
Ram does not become corrupted unless is is faulty. have you run a memory test program lately?

Computer is running so slow I am about to throw it out the window(house).
Do you have an anti-virus program and have you scanned for viruses or spyware?

By the way it recently crashed I have just recently finished rebuilding all my files and stuff.

Your computer may only need a little file maintenance and TLC to come back to life. Try running "disk cleanup" and "disk defragmenter" to see what happens.

Mark Engel
02-19-2009, 5:59 PM
Five years is a pretty good run for a desktop system. You could probably do some upgrades to improve the system, but, at five years, you may need to upgrade quite a bit. You will probably find that other things in the system are going to start needing to be 'upgraded' as the system gets older.

My advice would be to back up everything you want to keep and start shopping for a new system. I can't really offer any advice as to the desktop vs notebook conundrum. I, personally built my own desktop that I am very happy with, but I sit on my keester all day in front of the PC, so I have no need for a portable. My Wife, on the other hand, prefers the notebook.

Benjamin Dahl
02-19-2009, 5:59 PM
Lori, you say you have not done any upgrading. Do you keep your virus software and windows up to date? sounds like you could have some adware/spyware slowing it down. Others will probably speak up but I would look into the possibility of viruses.
if you think that is not the problem it could be a hardware issue. hard to say. I have an older desktop that I added RAM to and it really made a difference. i also use a laptop and that is pretty convenient. for what you are doing you don't need a super fast processor so there are some pretty good deals out there both for laptops and desktops.

Scott Brihn
02-19-2009, 6:12 PM
After 20+ years of using PCs; last night I brought home two MacBooks to replace a four-year old Dell desktop. Assuming these meet our expectations we will become a family of Mac users.

The near constant updating of the OS, anti-spyware, virus, and applications associated with the PCs grew tiresome.

Lori Kleinberg
02-19-2009, 6:26 PM
Wow, thanks for the quick responses.
Gene, I will check out that computer to see. I forgot to mention sketchup. I will definitely put it on a new system although I haven't been able to learn it yet. Also wonder how good it would be to work/draw with a laptop.

Sorry Charles and Benjamin, when I said I hadn't done anything, I meant adding ram, hard drives, video stuff and the likes. I have windows set up to automatically run updates and the same with the Norton Internet Security.

Since it crashed and wiped everything out and all was just reloaded I didn't think it would need to be defraged quite yet. The only memory tests I ran were from PC Doctor (I think) which came with the computer but it said everything was running ok.

Mark, that is the concern I have about investing any money in this computer. It is probably out of date on everything. It would be cheaper to upgrade this one but I could only do so much and of course I would have to pay someone to do the work which adds to the bottom line.

Scott I am always tossing around the idea of a Mac, but everyone I know has a PC and that is all I have ever worked on.
Decisions decisions decisions

Tim Morton
02-19-2009, 6:27 PM
After 20+ years of using PCs; last night I brought home two MacBooks to replace a four-year old Dell desktop. Assuming these meet our expectations we will become a family of Mac users.

The near constant updating of the OS, anti-spyware, virus, and applications associated with the PCs grew tiresome.

crap..i was hoping to be the first....:mad::mad:

http://www.apple.com/imac/

Tim Morton
02-19-2009, 6:30 PM
Scott I am always tossing around the idea of a Mac, but everyone I know has a PC and that is all I have ever worked on.
Decisions decisions decisions

If everyone was jumping off a bridge????

Are you anywhere close to an apple store...at least test drive one, before you fall back into the same PC/spyware/virus program/slowdown/wanting tto throw it out the window trap:)

I am typing on a 8 year old imac and i have never ever wanted to throw it out the window, and it has never not done what i needed.

I may upgrade one day:cool:

Bruce Page
02-19-2009, 6:35 PM
I have windows set up to automatically run updates and the same with the Norton Internet Security.

Lori, that could be part of the problem. Norton had become such a huge resource hog that I ditched it and switched to AVG. My system is a lot happier.

David DeCristoforo
02-19-2009, 6:42 PM
#1: Of course you need a new computer. You always need a new computer!
#2: Second, third, and one hundred and third the "get a Mac" sentiment. Yes, it will cost more than a Dell or an HP or a whatever. But you can't imagine what it's like to be free from virus worries! That's worth the price just by itself. Plus the new all aluminum Apple laptops are just the best computers ever made (except for the current lineup of Mac Pros of course!) And with the ability of all current Macs to dual boot windoze if you simply must have windoze, you can have the best of both worlds. But I'm betting you will end up sounding just like my wife. The only time I ever hear her swear is when she is running windoze....

jeff begin
02-19-2009, 7:04 PM
512 MB (or 504 MB as Windows reports it) is plenty of RAM for the tasks that you describe using your computer for. The upgrade treadmill that the computer industry pushes on people is a lie. Five years old, five months old, whatever... it's a waste of money to upgrade unless you want to do something that your current computer cannot do. It sounds like your computer was doing the job well until it crashed.

Back up anything that you don't already have a copy of onto a CDROM or external hard drive. Use the restore disk (or Windows CD) that came with your computer to completely wipe and reinstall Windows. Then run Windows update and your computer will be as good as new.

To keep it in top shape, be very judicious about installing new software. The fastest way to slow down a computer is to install a bunch of junk on it--especially "free" downloads you get from the Internet. I'd also recommend that you use Firefox rather than Internet Explorer to browse the web. And if you really want an antivirus program, skip Norton/Symantec and download a free copy of "avast!" (In my opinion AVG has gotten very bloated since the latest release. Symantec has been bloated for a decade. avast! is my current choice).

Use the money you save on a new computer to buy more wood. :D

Randal Stevenson
02-19-2009, 8:19 PM
I personally do not believe in having financial software on a laptop. Laptops also suffer from battery lives that die before the pc does (causing people to replace them or buy expensive replacements). You also can't upgrade them as easily.

That said, if you replace your desktop, one other option to consider, that will allow to get more life out of your current pc, is to try Linux. You can get distro's that will boot from cd/dvd (google distrowatch and you can see lot's of distributions), and these will allow you to web surf, due your research, word process, etc. These are also more virus resistant (last I knew three viruses for Linux, and one was a proof of concept).

At some point and time you have to upgrade, but do so only if it doesn't meet your needs, or it costs more to fix then replacement cost.

Frank Hagan
02-19-2009, 8:25 PM
Sorry Charles and Benjamin, when I said I hadn't done anything, I meant adding ram, hard drives, video stuff and the likes. I have windows set up to automatically run updates and the same with the Norton Internet Security.


As Windows computers age, they get slower and slower due to the number of entries in the registry, programs added to start up automatically, etc. I would recommend some stop-gap measures while you wait for Windows 7 to be released rather than buying a Windows Vista computer now (Windows 7 should be released by the end of the year, and the reviews of the beta are very favorable). Here's my free advice (and worth every penny, I might add).

As Bruce said, download AVG free antivirus from http://free.avg.com/ Unplug your computer from the Internet if you have broadband (or, don't dial in if you have dial up) and uninstall Norton Anti Virus (see What Slows Windows Down (http://www.thepcspy.com/read/what_really_slows_windows_down/5) for why it is slowing you down). Install AVG free, connect to the Internet and let it update itself, and then scan your system. This is probably the most effective way to speed up your system.

Secondly, look at what is starting up with your system. If you have an XP system click Start * Run and type "msconfig" into the dialog box. Click the "Start Up" tab to see what is starting with your computer. You'll find old printer management programs (long after you've trashed the printer), updaters for Adobe Reader, "iTunes Helper" and other applications you don't need to have start up with your computer. This takes a bit of time, but you can de-select a few of these that you don't use, reboot and see if the system runs OK. You can also Google the name of the file to see what it does and if its essential. Most of them are not, although a few will be (your virus checker, video card driver, etc.).

When you reboot, you'll get a dialog that says something like "You used the start up configuration utility to change your start up preferences" ... check off the box that says something like "Do not show the you used the start up configuration utility to change your start up preferences dialog when I reboot" and close the dialog.

That may be enough to speed up your system. If not, you can go the next step into utilities like CCleaner, that cleans up registry entries. It provides marginal help, and gets more toward the complex side of things. It cleans out the Internet cache, etc., and can be a great assist once you get the primary problems taken care of.

David G Baker
02-19-2009, 8:35 PM
Possible conflict with your virus software. If you have had a virus software on your computer other than your existing software, portions of the other virus software that may still exist in your system could be causing the problems you are experiencing.

John Shuk
02-19-2009, 9:30 PM
I say pick up an IMAC or even a mac mini. I have one of each and as Tim said have never wanted to throw it out a window.
They just always work and I don't worry about all the spyware crap out there.

Ed Barnes
02-19-2009, 9:40 PM
Another major reason for a machine slowing down is spyware/malware. There are three free applications that I use regularly to detect and remove spyware.

Spybot Search & Destroy
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html

Ad-Aware
http://www.lavasoft.com/products/ad_aware_free.php

Malwarebytes
http://www.malwarebytes.org/

Use two out of these three as their detection algorithms are different and will find slightly different spyware apps because of that. Be sure to update them after you install them and prior to perfoming a scan.

Best of luck,
Ed

Eric DeSilva
02-19-2009, 11:01 PM
First, I've owned Apples and I've owned PCs. Frankly, the whole "get an Apple and don't worry about viruses" is hooey. Apple's market share is smaller, so there are more targets in the PC world, but there are Mac viruses. The more Macs there are, the more viruses there will be.

Second, I will say that Apple has a genuine understanding of user needs and does better user interfaces than anyone. Playing with an iTouch or iPhone should convince you of that. I own an iTouch and an iPhone. But, my computer is a PC. Go figure. I find that more software is available and I have more ability to make my computer into *my* computer.

Third, unless you have a need for portability on a very regular basis, skip the laptop. Yeah, they are cute. Yeah, they are small. Yeah, they also may not cost that much more. But--and this is guaranteed--you will get more processing power bang for the buck out of a desktop. Given battery issues and the fact that heat kills hard drives, hard drives in desktops tend to fail far less often than those in laptops. Desktops have better cooling and a form factor that doesn't require the same space compromises. They simply are more reliable. (I have also never found a laptop keyboard that is as good to type on as a cheap desktop--that includes my wife's Macbook Pro with the keyboard Apple fanboys love).

Fourth, in terms of the upgrade v. buy new, check your specs, and compare them to what is out there now in the value bin. After that many years, I'm guessing you could replace your computer with comparable specs for almost nothing. That might change your fix/buy new calculus.

David DeCristoforo
02-20-2009, 12:20 AM
"Frankly, the whole "get an Apple and don't worry about viruses" is hooey. Apple's market share is smaller, so there are more targets in the PC world..."

Actually there are no significant documented viruses that can attack a Mac other than a couple of harmless, "because we can" examples. The reason is not relevant. The fact is, you can run a Mac unprotected on the 'net forever and not get attacked. You can't run a windoze box on the 'net for more than twenty minutes without a virus shield. I have a half dozen Macs under my direct care and none of them have ever had any anti virus software installed and none of them have ever had any malware issues. My windoze computers have to have updates every day or within a week, I'm reinstalling the OS again....

Randal Stevenson
02-20-2009, 12:28 AM
"Frankly, the whole "get an Apple and don't worry about viruses" is hooey. Apple's market share is smaller, so there are more targets in the PC world..."

Actually there are no significant documented viruses that can attack a Mac other than a couple of harmless, "because we can" examples. The reason is not relevant. The fact is, you can run a Mac unprotected on the 'net forever and not get attacked. You can't run a windoze box on the 'net for more than twenty minutes without a virus shield. I have a half dozen Macs under my direct care and none of them have ever had any anti virus software installed and none of them have ever had any malware issues. My windoze computers have to have updates every day or within a week, I'm reinstalling the OS again....

I've seen Windows run MUCH longer without updates. But your example of having multiple users, shows most of Windows issues is the user themselves, not following good practices. This may be because they don't care, or it may be due to inexperience and/or carelessness.

Darius Ferlas
02-20-2009, 12:46 AM
Actually there are no significant documented viruses that can attack a Mac other than a couple of harmless, "because we can" examples. The reason is not relevant. The fact is, you can run a Mac unprotected on the 'net forever and not get attacked.

About the worst security policy is feeling totally secure. It's an old adage to be taken seriously that computer security is not a product, but a process. Macs' security level is every bit as dismal as Window's. At times worse.

check this out: http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=758
Not convinced? Check Secunia's website and advisories on Apple OS and application software.


As for the hardware, Macs are now Intel based so no difference between them and PCs.

I'd recommend a laptop. If you're afraid of loosing data (and rightly so) get one of the 17" laptops from Dell, HP, Acer etc. They tend to have dual hard drive bays, which allows disk mirroring. You still need an external backup if your data is critical - customer files, projects, finances.

Lori Kleinberg
02-20-2009, 1:28 AM
Oh boy, so much info, I think I am on overload. Well you guys have given me alot of info to digest/think about. Mac vs PC. Laptop vs Desktop. Oy vey what to do.

The reason I didn't lose too much when my computer crashed is because I was in the process of backing everything up. The computer was kind of running funny and I was concerned I didn't have recent back ups. Got lucky there, maybe I should have bought a lottery ticket too :rolleyes:. Anyway, I did get most of the stuff up to date. Part of the running funny was that it was running so slow I thought it locked up, but then it would go and I knew it wasn't frozen.

Start ups are slow and I will definitely check the miscong... but that isn't the whole problem. Just about everything you try to do takes forever. Even after the crash, with the hard drive wiped out and then rebuilt? less programs installed still have Norton but will look into getting rid of it.

We also thought about keeping this computer just for my husband to use Quicken without any internet connection and then I would buy a laptop for the convenience.

I still hesitate about a Mac, cause my kids will come by and use the computer as well as fiancées and girlfriends, and others too on occasion. and all we have ever used is PC.

My next step is to open the box :confused:(the one with the motherboard and etc.) to clean it out. I was told that sometimes this will help and we have never done it. It is probably a good idea considering the number of fur balls floating around my home :eek:.

Then we will have a friend that is really good with computers to come by and take a look.

One minute I am leaning towards buying a new laptop and keeping the old desktop for the hubby, but then I think a new desktop would be more practical. Also still probably going to stick with PC (I don't do heights so no worries about bridges:D) I do like the idea of more available software for PC's and my smartphone is windows mobile 6.1, if that matters ;).

Darius Ferlas
02-20-2009, 1:41 AM
Start ups are slow and I will definitely check the miscong... but that isn't the whole problem. Just about everything you try to do takes forever. Even after the crash, with the hard drive wiped out and then rebuilt?


Lori,

Something is telling me that you may have an issue with the drive alone. If by "rebuilt" you mean reinstalled Windows on the same drive and it's still slow, I'd say the drive is going down (tries to re-read failing sectors so it takes longer to do anything). With hard drives it's not a question IF but when they will fail. With a consumer grade drive, and 5 years you got pretty good mileage. A $50 may (may!) solve the problem.


We also thought about keeping this computer just for my husband to use Quicken without any internet connection and then I would buy a laptop for the convenience.
2 computers are always better than one.


My next step is to open the box :confused:(the one with the motherboard and etc.) to clean it out. I was told that sometimes this will help and we have never done it. It is probably a good idea considering the number of fur balls floating around my home

Simply open the left side cover (two screws in the back, and slide it back) and blow some compressed air around the components, mostly fans. Don't forget the fan i the back of the box. Blow lots of air through it outward (the air can inside the box, the air exiting out of the box). There will be a lot of dust. That won't speed up your machine but it will extend the life of your power supply, CPU and such.



Then we will have a friend that is really good with computers to come by and take a look.

Ask him to run: chkdsk /r in DOS box.
That will diagnose and possibly repair some drive failures, but you may still need a new drive.

Eric DeSilva
02-20-2009, 9:36 AM
C'mon, Leap-A spread through iChat as early as '06. There were also Bluetooth malware programs as early as '06 targeting Macs. Just last week, a trojan infecting iWork and CS4 distros for the Mac.

Macs come, out of box, with better malware protection than Windows PCs, I'll agree, but there is no fundamental reason why they are less prone other than the fact that they haven't been that much of a target.

I've run PCs w/o Norton or any other anti-virus software for as long as I can remember and never had a problem with malware or viruses--and all of my PCs have been used to surf the web; heck, half of the systems in my house are on 24/7 and connected to the web. I occasionally clean things with Spybot or Ad-aware, but it is mainly innocuous stuff like tracking cookies. I do use Firefox and I am careful about what I download and what I execute.

Lori Kleinberg
02-20-2009, 9:44 AM
Thanks Darius, I appreciate the tip on cleaning out the box.
That is exactly what I meant by "rebuilt", didn't know what else to call it.
I would prefer to not buy a new computer (rather do as suggested and use the money for wood ;)) but if I replace the hard drive and add some ram will this computer be good to go for a couple more years. Would it be better to just get a new computer considering all the upgrades in the last 5 years?
By the way I am not talking about a top of the line computer just something that will work well for another 5 years or more.

Note; I know what I want to say but sometimes I don't know how to say it :mad:.

Don Bullock
02-20-2009, 10:03 AM
Lori,
I'll jump in and suggest that when you do decide to upgrade to at least check out a Mac. I've been using desk top computers since the very early days. Several years ago I made the BIG mistake of changing from a Mac to a PC because I had a PC at work. Last year, because my latest PC started doing the same thing as yours and I was on my third PC at work in three years, I decided to go back to Mac. I can't believe the difference. I can do just about everything better on the Mac than I could on the PC, except one special program, and could even use that program if I ran my Mac using Windows. I'm definitely not sorry that I switched.

Darius Ferlas
02-20-2009, 10:56 AM
Lori,

if you replace the drive the PC will be as good as new. If you add RAM it will be better.

While anything can fail inside a PC, the solid state components usually last decades. The parts that will eventually fail are mechanical in nature - hard disk, CPU cooler (a little fan inside the box which can be replaced for $10) and the PSU (power supply unit) fan, another $10 if you're into soldering, or $20 to $50 if you prefer Phillips screwdriver.

Chris Krysinski
02-20-2009, 11:33 AM
I'll add a vote in for a Mac computer. I use a Macbook Pro 15" for just about everything (work and personal) although ideally you would have a different computer for each in my opinion.

But as far as this machine goes it's nice and sturdy, can take a bump or two but always try to minimize that if possible. It should definitely have powerful enough hardware for just about anything you're considering doing, even CAD/CAM. You might only consider a memory upgrade in such a case. If you need to run a windows program well that's no problem, you run windows on your mac through bootcamp or another similar app.

I switched over to Mac when I was in college, I was very nervous about it wondering if I'd be able to do the same things as I did in Windows. I can safely say I'm able to, and possibly do more things with niftier software and yet I can still run windows if I need to. I don't see myself going back to the windows only format for the foreseeable future.

Tidbit: the Onsrud guys at IWF last year were running cad/cam software on Macbook Pros. I grinned when I saw that :)

David DeCristoforo
02-20-2009, 12:04 PM
Just last week? One? OMG! Let's see how many known windoze viruses are there? Over 100,000? Besides, that was something that gets installed only if you try to install a specific pirated version of iWork. Hardly the same as picking something up from the 'net

Myk Rian
02-20-2009, 12:39 PM
My 2 cents. I build my own machines, this one for gaming.
A 5 year old computer has obsolete parts, BUT, can still be functional if you don't install programs that need a lot of processing power, games like Call of Duty 4, Crysis, or video editing software.

200 gig hard drives are relatively cheap these days. So is 2gig of RAM memory. That may be all you need to keep the machine running well.

As stated earlier, don't install Norton or MaCafee. Go with a freebie such as AVG. www.free.grisoft.com and Spybot. http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html

If you do buy new, do you travel often? A laptop will keep you connected wherever you go.

Frank Hagan
02-20-2009, 1:33 PM
"Frankly, the whole "get an Apple and don't worry about viruses" is hooey. Apple's market share is smaller, so there are more targets in the PC world..."

Actually there are no significant documented viruses that can attack a Mac other than a couple of harmless, "because we can" examples. The reason is not relevant. The fact is, you can run a Mac unprotected on the 'net forever and not get attacked. You can't run a windoze box on the 'net for more than twenty minutes without a virus shield. I have a half dozen Macs under my direct care and none of them have ever had any anti virus software installed and none of them have ever had any malware issues. My windoze computers have to have updates every day or within a week, I'm reinstalling the OS again....

Macs have only two "in the wild" viruses, both the result of installing pirated software (iWork 09 and Adobe Photoshop) ... see Cnet.com (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10148359-83.html) for details. If you don't pirate software, you are pretty safe from worms, trojans and other viruses with a Mac. I'm a PC guy, but I think a Mac makes a lot of sense for someone who doesn't like to get into the guts of the machine.

Frank Hagan
02-20-2009, 1:51 PM
Start ups are slow and I will definitely check the miscong... but that isn't the whole problem. Just about everything you try to do takes forever. Even after the crash, with the hard drive wiped out and then rebuilt? less programs installed still have Norton but will look into getting rid of it.

We also thought about keeping this computer just for my husband to use Quicken without any internet connection and then I would buy a laptop for the convenience.


Well, I have had both laptops and desktops for the past 15 years or so, and I much prefer a desktop. With a laptop, you will want to get a mouse, keyboard and perhaps a monitor to do any real work. Or at least, that's how I'm using my laptop right now. At that point, the only convenience factor to consider is that you can "take it with you" on vacation or between office and home (which is my situation). Desktops are more reliable than laptops.

Good advice on using chkdsk /r to check the drive; many replacement drives come with cloning software, so a $70 to $80 investment can get you a larger, faster hard drive. Have your computer buddy check to see how easily it would be to add another 512MB of RAM (if there's an open slot, its extremely easy, and depending on the style of RAM, can be really cheap). If you are using Windows XP, adding more RAM would help a lot. So for about $100, you could do all the upgrades I would recommend on that old a system.

Norton slows down a computer even while running. Many of the programs that load at start up do so. Have you ever opened 8 or 10 programs and had your computer slow to a crawl? Some of the programs in the start up folder can affect your PC the same way. So its worthwhile to check msconfig and see if you have other programs slowing you down.

To recap, I think there's been great advice in this thread. For your immediate situation, you can invest some time and very little money and try these things:

1. Check your hard drive using Start * Run and then "CMD" in the dialog box ... in the DOS window that comes up, type "chkdsk /r" to see how your drive is holding up. Darius is right on with this recommendation, and it should be the first thing you do because it could be all you need to do.
2. Run a spyware / adware program as recommended. They are free. I like "Spybot Search and Destroy", but Ad-Aware (free version) and Malwarebytes are good too.
3. Remove Norton and go with AVG or Avast! free antivirus programs.
4. Check your start up programs using "msconfig"
5. Consider adding RAM. It could be as little as $18 to add another 512 MB.

Greg Narozniak
02-20-2009, 3:06 PM
The bottom line is the Specs of your current PC and what you plan to do with it. Post the specs and we can advise you on what to do.

As others have said 5 years is a good run. New machines are very cheap now a days.

It is honestly up to you. As a PC guy I would say stay with PC. Over 90% of the worlds businesses run on them day in and day out.

As far as MAC don't get me started :)

Eric DeSilva
02-20-2009, 4:41 PM
Just last week? One? OMG! Let's see how many known windoze viruses are there? Over 100,000

David, my point was that Macs are not inherently immune to malware. Nor are PCs predestined to be infected with something. You were the one who made it black and white--"there are no significant documented viruses that can attack a Mac other than a couple of harmless, 'because we can' examples" and "You can't run a windoze box on the 'net for more than twenty minutes without a virus shield." My point was simply that neither of those statements is correct. If you are retreating to the point that there are more PC viruses out there than Mac viruses, I'll agree. But its a different point.


Besides, that was something that gets installed only if you try to install a specific pirated version of iWork. Hardly the same as picking something up from the 'net

Frankly, the same applies in the PC world too. You have to execute some code to install malware. Usually that is through the expedient of launching an attachment that purports to be something else or allowing your machine to run code off a website. And, most of that crap is pretty basic stuff driven by script-kiddies. Like I've said, I've run PCs for years that are attached to the internet and I do a lot of stuff on the internet. Never had a virus. Never.

My problem is that I perceive that Mac users often come across as "true believers" and want the rest of us heathens to repent--there seems to be a fundamental disbelief that anyone could choose another option. Like dealing with former smokers.

Well, I've drunk from both rivers, I've programmed both machines (heck, I learned assembly language on an Apple II and had an SDK for the Mac with a serial number in the teens). I like the Piaget underpinnings of their philosophy about software. My Dad's a mac user and my Mom's a mac user and I trouble shoot their machines all the time. My wife has a Macbook Pro (although half the time its on the Bootcamp XP side).

But, when it comes down to it, I prefer my uber-fast, home-built, heatpipe-based ultra quiet PC more than any Mac machine I've tried, including the six Macs I've bought over the years.

John Shuk
02-20-2009, 5:36 PM
"First, I've owned Apples and I've owned PCs. Frankly, the whole "get an Apple and don't worry about viruses" is hooey. Apple's market share is smaller, so there are more targets in the PC world, but there are Mac viruses. The more Macs there are, the more viruses there will be."


I keep hearing that but it just hasn't happened.
I'm pretty sure that hackers being the type of people they are trying to get into the Macs as we speak.
I don't why they can't but they don't seem to be able to.

Mark Engel
02-20-2009, 6:00 PM
It's really not a question of the ability to do so. It's a question of 'why bother'.

If you are going to spend your time creating a computer virus (which I don't really understand), you should probably try to get that virus to as many computers as possible, so some one will notice. Create a virus for Mac's, and there may not be enough users out there to notice.

If you were going to create aftermarket automotive parts, would you concentrate your efforts on the Ford F-150, or on the Yugo?

Mark Engel
02-20-2009, 6:09 PM
Sorry Lori. This thread seems to have gotten just a bit off topic.

John Shuk
02-20-2009, 7:20 PM
"Create a virus for Mac's, and there may not be enough users out there to notice."



To say there aren't enough users out there to notice seems a bit extreme.
If you could spy on 70 or 80% of Mac users and not be noticed would that not be worth something? We are talking millions of people here.

If they could infect Iphones or Ipods in the same stroke I think it might tend to get some peoples attention.

According to this link there are about 19 million OS X users out there.
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/07/live-from-wwdc-2006-steve-jobs-keynote/

Lori Kleinberg
02-21-2009, 1:05 PM
Someone asked about the computer stats; Is this what you meant:
Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.53GHz
504MB Ram
Hard drive C: 69.2 GB

Frank Hagan
02-21-2009, 2:36 PM
"First, I've owned Apples and I've owned PCs. Frankly, the whole "get an Apple and don't worry about viruses" is hooey. Apple's market share is smaller, so there are more targets in the PC world, but there are Mac viruses. The more Macs there are, the more viruses there will be."


I keep hearing that but it just hasn't happened.
I'm pretty sure that hackers being the type of people they are trying to get into the Macs as we speak.
I don't why they can't but they don't seem to be able to.

An estimated 20,000 Mac users are infected with the trojan virus that came with the pirated copy of iWorks ... but because they don't run virus software, they may never know it.

There's another infection route for that same trojan, a pirated copy of Photoshop, I think. No one knows how many Macs are infected with that version.

At the hacking contests held last year, a stock version of the Mac OS was the first to fall, then Windows. Linux never did get hacked. But even with that, the typical user just getting a computer is probably going to be happier with a Mac, then a PC and last of all a linux variant (which is always a challenge to get things like wireless adapters, printers, cameras, etc. to work with).

Darius Ferlas
02-21-2009, 2:41 PM
With these specs, and perhaps and extra 512 or 1024MB or memory the machine still has a few years of usable life. A new hard drive (try to get one with 7200 RPM) will speed it up too.

Frank Hagan
02-21-2009, 2:51 PM
Someone asked about the computer stats; Is this what you meant:
Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.53GHz
504MB Ram
Hard drive C: 69.2 GB

Very close to what I am running ... a Pentium 4 at 3 GHZ (DELL Dimension E510). I noticed a huge difference when I went to 1 GB of RAM. I would seriously consider going to 1 GB of RAM. For your use, that computer should be good for a few more years, and the upgrade will

I went to crucial.com and used their system scanner to see what memory I had, and what they could add. To increase my system from 1 GB to 3 GB the total cost would be $30. That's a pretty cheap upgrade.

Is your hard drive close to being full? If you have less than about 20% free space, upgrading to a larger hard drive might make sense too. I noticed my system was faster when I replaced my hard drive with a larger one. But the RAM upgrade will give you the most bang for the buck.

Scott Shepherd
02-22-2009, 10:10 AM
The one thing people who fight to the death for Windows don't seem to understand is that they, themselves, are computer savvy. They have no problem bopping around the internet, reading blogs, trade magazines, etc. to KNOW that they can try out AVG or anything else.

I stood over my co-worker's shoulder a few weeks ago when he was searching for some material online. After closing Firefox (another example of someone who's not a Geek wouldn't know anything about), a window popped up and told him he had a virus and asked him if he wanted to remove it. His mouse was hovering over the "Remove virus" button when I screamed "DON'T CLICK THAT".

How the heck was he supposed to know? That's the problem with your anti-Mac arguments. You assume the users know, or even want to know computers at the same level you do. How many people out there that are users actually want to spend their free time finding out about Thunderbird, Firefox, AVG Free, etc.

THEY DON'T CARE.

They want to turn it on, surf the internet, email someone and maybe type a document every now and then. There is no reason they need to know how to download and install all sorts of things that most geeks love to do.

Understand, 95% of the population aren't computer geeks.

I used to get at least 2 calls a week from my parents who are in their 70's. "I'm looking at X,Y,Z and I don't know what to do". I think it's been 3 years now since their first Mac. I've never had a single call from them asking what to do next on their computer. They love it so much, they bought another one. So they now use two Macs and I still haven't gotten a call from them with any issues or problems. That's a testament to what I said above. They don't want (or need) to know how something works, why it works, or what they need to do to make it work, they just want it to work.

John Shuk
02-22-2009, 11:17 AM
Ditto what Scott said.

Tim Morton
02-22-2009, 12:05 PM
Ditto what Scott said.

ditto what scot AND john said...this is the entire reason why i believe anyone who buys a PC for home use is making a huge mistake. There is a not a single thing a PC can do at home that a mac can't not only do, but do better and easier...

That being said...i am quite comfortable flying under the radar with just 10% of the market share:cool:

That being said, I wonder why we would even TRY and convert people:D

Tim Morton
02-22-2009, 12:12 PM
Pardon my small PC/ Best Buy rant here...please read and ignore so as not to hijack the thread.

My daughters husband bought a gateway laptop one year and 2 weks ago from Best Buy. See where this is headed...it died last night 2 weeks out of warantee. Neither BB or Gateway will even entertain the idea of comprimsing on this. BB wants to charge her $500 to take this one in and give them a refurbed unit in return. And Gateway won't even speak to her unless she pays $100 to set up a repair call.

The kicker is the computer started acting up last month ( under warantee) and the fellow from india/gateway told her he would email her the RMA instructions to send it in for repair. He never did and now the computer is dead and this young couple is out $1000.

The cause of the computer death, a metal bracket that was welded to something internal came off and dropped onto the MB and fried it....

Before you say it....yes i suppose that might happen with Apple...but i have never heard of it....and if you go online to research consumer complaints against Gateway and/or BB...it seems to happen every couple of hours.

Darius Ferlas
02-22-2009, 1:21 PM
ditto what scot AND john said...this is the entire reason why i believe anyone who buys a PC for home use is making a huge mistake.

Mac vs. Windows is in the same league as politics and religion. You either believe, or vote or you don't.

Not really a mistake but a logical choice. Apple is not known for addressing the needs of an enterprise. People go to work where mostly Win. is used. They decide they need a computer and the logical choice is windows too. The whole issue of learning and re-learning etc. I started with a Mac years ago. I worked on it 4 years and I hated every minute of it. Completely illogical, confusing and unreliable. I dumped it and never looked back. I use Windows because I have to, and Linux because I like it.

The mistake I see is that many people do not care to be educated. We all took driving lessons in one form or another but we hesitate to take a few hours of computer classes. And I'm not talking about computer repair or software development. Computers are the most sophisticated toys human kind came up with so far, and yet we expect to be able to just use them without experiencing any problems.



There is a not a single thing a PC can do at home that a mac can't not only do, but do better and easier...

Unfortunately, that is also true of Mac viruses and other malware. The ease with which it can be caught is astounding.

Ease of use of software use is debatable. MS Word under Mac is as easy as it is under Windows.


That being said...i am quite comfortable flying under the radar with just 10% of the market share:cool:

And that's the big mistake. Macs are as vulnerable as PCs. Actually, security advisories for Mac in the last couple of years were more numerous than for Windows.

There are no 100% safe and "best" operating systems or computers. As I mentioned before, computer security is not a product but a process.

If you want safer than Windows and Mac, and if you want to pay only for hardware get Linux. Not 100% secure. None of them are, but in the last 12 years that my daughter (not even close to a computer geek) has been using it she had zero issues, not a single virus. Pretty unusual for a teenager online.

As for the Gateway laptop described above - well, Gateway is the Yugo of computers. Stay away.

Tim Morton
02-22-2009, 1:29 PM
I worked on it 4 years and I hated every minute of it. Completely illogical, confusing and unreliable..

Good info to know regarding your future posts......darius is the guy who couldn't figure out the macOS even after 4 years....:p

j/k:cool:

Scott Shepherd
02-22-2009, 2:10 PM
I worked on it 4 years and I hated every minute of it. Completely illogical, confusing and unreliable. I dumped it and never looked back. I use Windows because I have to, and Linux because I like it.

There lies another issue with the comparisons. Many of the Pro-PC arguments always start by saying "I used a Mac 4 years ago". Well, that's always a good comparison, let's compare your experience on a 4 year old system to a brand new windows machine and then we'll pick apart the lack of features on the 4 year old system. Want to compare systems, compare OSX and Vista.

Randal Stevenson
02-22-2009, 11:33 PM
I stood over my co-worker's shoulder a few weeks ago when he was searching for some material online. After closing Firefox (another example of someone who's not a Geek wouldn't know anything about), a window popped up and told him he had a virus and asked him if he wanted to remove it. His mouse was hovering over the "Remove virus" button when I screamed "DON'T CLICK THAT".

How the heck was he supposed to know? That's the problem with your anti-Mac arguments. You assume the users know, or even want to know computers at the same level you do. How many people out there that are users actually want to spend their free time finding out about Thunderbird, Firefox, AVG Free, etc.

THEY DON'T CARE.

They want to turn it on, surf the internet, email someone and maybe type a document every now and then. There is no reason they need to know how to download and install all sorts of things that most geeks love to do.



Who set up the pc? For the typical user, you can set it up weather Linux, Mac, PC to be pretty secure. For instance, to use some Windows program they are comfortable with, as well as the typical surfing/emailing, etc, I could set up someones pc, to disallow pop ups, eliminate active X, install their program, and use something like Vlite or Nlite to simplifiy Windows.
Linux CAN be bought, ALREADY on a pc, unfortunately, it is either a bit harder to find, or people don't realize they are using it (some of the Asus EEEpc users). Another option, that I showed a computer illiterate person, is/was a bootable distro. They can surf, email, etc. without fear of viruses, or being tracked by someone looking at the history/internet temp files.

No OS, is the end all be all, and companies don't care to try to make Windows secure as they want to load on a bunch of trial programs, and make you think you need them.

Darius Ferlas
02-23-2009, 12:19 AM
There lies another issue with the comparisons. Many of the Pro-PC arguments always start by saying "I used a Mac 4 years ago".


Scott, I never said "I used a Mac 4 years ago". I said I worked on it 4 years and that was 15 years ago. I switched to PC when PCs really had a lot of catching up to do to be like Macs. Now they have, and it turns out Mac (hardwarewise) recently "caught" up with PC when Apple decided to switch to Intel platform. That was certainly a mistake, as their previous RISC architecture was technically much better, even if they lost points on raw speed tests on a Hertz by Hertz basis.

Until I can give my users Mac versions programs that they need to do their work Mac is not an option, other than to buy it just for kicks and install Linux on it.



Well, that's always a good comparison, let's compare your experience on a 4 year old system to a brand new windows machine and then we'll pick apart the lack of features on the 4 year old system. Want to compare systems, compare OSX and Vista.

15 years ago I didn't switch to PCs running Vista. There was no Vista then.

Why would you like to compare Mac OS to Vista then? Anyway, it is one of MS's worst, on par with Windows Millenium and Apple OS 10.5.2. On the second though, yeah, why not? Let's compare Mac OS 10.5.2. to Vista (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1677&tag=nl.e539).

Lori Kleinberg
02-23-2009, 2:36 AM
Thanks everyone for all the information and tips. I will definitely check into all the suggested fixes as well as new PC's and I will even take a quick peek at the Mac's.
I think I will sign off from this thread because it is turning a little heated.
Thanks again.

Scott Shepherd
02-23-2009, 6:40 AM
Who set up the pc? For the typical user, you can set it up weather Linux, Mac, PC to be pretty secure. For instance, to use some Windows program they are comfortable with, as well as the typical surfing/emailing, etc, I could set up someones pc, to disallow pop ups, eliminate active X, install their program, and use something like Vlite or Nlite to simplifiy Windows.

Thanks for proving my point. 95% or more of the public doesn't know a word about what you just said, and don't want to know.

Darius, I never said that Mac's should replace all PC's in the world. I just think that off the cuff comments get taken as fact too many times. For instance, people say that corporations don't use Mac's. Sure they do. Ever heard of a little company called Apple? They have a massive company. MASSIVE, and they run on Mac's. So it's not like there aren't companies doing it. There are many many large companies running Mac's. There are also many companies switching over to Mac's but no one ever says that either. PC's have a role and not everything is available for the Mac platform. However, the vast majority of people are not superusers of computers, they just need email, internet and a word processor.

Chuck Wintle
02-23-2009, 7:45 AM
My daughters husband bought a gateway laptop one year and 2 weeks ago from Best Buy. See where this is headed...it died last night 2 weeks out of warantee. Neither BB or Gateway will even entertain the idea of compromising on this. BB wants to charge her $500 to take this one in and give them a refurbed unit in return. And Gateway won't even speak to her unless she pays $100 to set up a repair call.

Had that happen to my son's laptop. In my opinion these laptops are made to last just about as long as the warrantee at which point the manufacturer hopes the consumer will toss it and buy another. Toshiba is just as bad as Gateway. :mad:

Greg Narozniak
02-23-2009, 8:57 AM
Someone asked about the computer stats; Is this what you meant:
Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2.53GHz
504MB Ram
Hard drive C: 69.2 GB

Bump the RAM up to 2gb (Assuming the MB can handle it) Check with www.crucial.com and look up your PC. They guarantee compatability.

Add a second HD (you can do 1TB for $99) and you will be good for at least another year.

Burt Alcantara
02-26-2009, 10:56 AM
Late to the party but I want to throw in another good word for Linux. I switched 2 years ago, my wife, last year. She works at home and exchanges files from Mac & Windows with no problem, using OpenOffice.

No viruses, no crashes, free software, free updates. Learning curve? Yes, but no worse then the other guys. Plus, you have the choice of running an entire OS from a CD or DVD (Knoppix); talk about security!

Is it a hacker OS? Disney uses Linux to render all of their frame drawings for their animated movies. Most brokerage houses use Linux for the backend processing, that is, all of the trades. Steve Balmer is more concerned about Linux then Apple.

There are numerous flavors of Linux, virtually, all free so you can get one customized for whatever pleases you. In fact, you can build one from the ground up with "Linux from Scratch (LFS)."

The best OS support forum on the planet is http://www.ubuntuforums.org. Log in and just browse. It's huge with an enormous user base that will answer any question from users all over the world.

Just be aware that there are other choices.
Burt

Curt Harms
02-28-2009, 7:53 AM
.......
At the hacking contests held last year, a stock version of the Mac OS was the first to fall, then Windows. Linux never did get hacked. But even with that, the typical user just getting a computer is probably going to be happier with a Mac, then a PC and last of all a linux variant (which is always a challenge to get things like wireless adapters, printers, cameras, etc. to work with).

I've been a PC user since DOS 3.XX thru the various Windows iterations. I've played with Linux occasionally but Ubuntu 8.10 is pretty user friendly. It can install as dual boot with Windows or within Windows. Even using it as a "live CD" it found my wireless network automatically. Installed on a hard drive, I told it to find my networked printer. It found the printer and installed the software for it. I'm thinking use Linux for web surfing and ordinary office functions and Windows for applications for which there are no good Linux alternatives. I even installed Linux on an 8 gb. flash drive. That didn't work out reliably but I'm not sure if it was a software or hardware problem. For data sharing both Windows and Linux see USB drives of various flavors so keep data on USB drives. Linux is maturing and is certainly slick for the price ($0.00):)

Curt

Neal Clayton
02-28-2009, 4:42 PM
Help me decide please; My current desktop is about 5 years old. Have done nothing to upgrade it. Seems as though some of my ram has corrupted (not as much as I started with) down to about 504 mb, not that there is enough for all of todays program, anyway. Computer is running so slow I am about to throw it out the window(house). By the way it recently crashed :mad:. I do not know why, but luckily I had most of our stuff backed up and didn't lose any pictures. I have just recently finished rebuilding all my files and stuff.
I have enough computer (tech) knowledge to be dangerous, and my husband is less tech savy then I am :o.
So the question is do I try to upgrade/fix what I have or buy something new. If I buy new should I get another desktop or go with a laptop. The computer is used for internet surfing like SMC, shopping, research, etc. We write letters, very light editing and storage of pictures, and we use Quicken. Also, we are a PC :p:D

why not build one?

seriously. anyone who can read the motherboard manual can build a computer. it's a helluva lot easier than building anything with wood (the parts fit already, you don't have to make em fit :)).

there are plenty of good motherboards out there with integrated video and audio, which is plenty for your listed needs. so all you gotta do is put the processor in, put the memory in, put it all in the case, plug in your drives and power supply, and the windows install CD does the rest.

this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121336), this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134117), this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115206), this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811154050), this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148395), and this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151173), cost what, 400 bucks? copy of XP oem is another 100 or so.

could even eliminate the drives and just move over your old hard drive/cd drive(s) and knock it down another hundred bucks.

Frank Hagan
03-01-2009, 1:33 AM
I've been a PC user since DOS 3.XX thru the various Windows iterations. I've played with Linux occasionally but Ubuntu 8.10 is pretty user friendly. It can install as dual boot with Windows or within Windows. Even using it as a "live CD" it found my wireless network automatically. Installed on a hard drive, I told it to find my networked printer. It found the printer and installed the software for it. I'm thinking use Linux for web surfing and ordinary office functions and Windows for applications for which there are no good Linux alternatives. I even installed Linux on an 8 gb. flash drive. That didn't work out reliably but I'm not sure if it was a software or hardware problem. For data sharing both Windows and Linux see USB drives of various flavors so keep data on USB drives. Linux is maturing and is certainly slick for the price ($0.00):)

Yep, I like it too. I will only host websites on linux servers (I HATE MS servers), and I have a linux box I'm hoping to convert to a HTPC with either Mythbuntu or Boxee. But, like you, I have been using PCs since DOS 2.0, and helped my buddies with CPM machines before that. I remember making serial cables because there weren't standard pin-outs for the CPM stuff. I've built several computers (always costs more than buying them from the big guys though).

But I would never recommend Linux to a new computer user, or for someone who doesn't like to tinker under the hood. All you have to do is search the Ubuntu forums for "printer problems", "camera problems", etc. to see that there's a world of stuff made for Windows and Macs, and very little specifically for Linux.

My dislike of things Mac has much in common with what I dislike about Windows ... the lack of being able to look under the hood. But for ease of use for a new user, I think Mac has it hand's down. Then a Windows variant, and way down the list for newbies, Linux.

If any of my family members who don't have computers ask me, I'll tell them to buy a Mac. Then, when they call with a problem, I'll have them call my little sister who owns a Mac because "gee, I don't know anything about them." I have spent quite a few family holidays working on a relative's computer because its "easy for me". I even missed pumpkin pie one Thanksgiving! :eek:

Tim Morton
03-01-2009, 6:52 AM
My dislike of things Mac has much in common with what I dislike about Windows ... the lack of being able to look under the hood. :eek:

http://www.spy-hill.com/~myers/help/apple/EnableRoot.html

giddy up!!!:eek: