Over the blade TS dust shroud users ?

[Rick Potter]

There has to be an easier way to say 'over the blade TS dust collectors' but I can't come up with it (blade shroud?). Anyway, for those of you who have one I am wondering what you use for push sticks. Seems to me that it would be in the way of a lot of narrow ripping cuts. My rich buddy has an Excalibur unit, which works well, but sometimes makes cuts a bit awkward.

Navrim had some good ideas on using extra long push sticks. I am wondering if anyone else has done something special? I have figured out how I will make my guard, and am looking for pushstick ideas, or comments on actual usage, like....how often does it actually get in the way?

Maybe I overestimate the problem?

Rick Potter

[Jason Beam]

For me ... the guard isn't used if I can't safely get a push block through it. Period. Awkward safety is no safety at all. I'll take the sawdust shower in favor of keeping digits.

My push block in these cases is a scrap 2x4 stood on it's side. Maybe a foot or two long, depending on what I'm cutting. I screw a masonite "tab" on the end, sticking down about 1/4" as a lip to catch the edge of the stock I'm cutting. This lets me hold the stock down as well as push it through. That feels safest for me.

There's no way i'd try to keep my guard in place on cuts narrower than say an inch or two. If I can't get my push block in there, I won't use the guard. Big long push sticks are awkward as heck for me to use - I WANT to be up near the cut so I can maintain complete control of both pieces. I can't do that with a 3' long birdsmouth stick and I dare say nobody can. :)

[Rod Sheridan]

Always use the guard, period.

If you can't use the guard you are doing something the machine isn't meant to do. You either then need to use a different machine, or a different approach so that you can keep the guard on the saw.

I have a General 650 with an Excalibur overarm guard, and a Merlin removable splitter.

When I'm ripping narrow pieces that are less an inch wide, I use a strip ripping sled which means the overarm guard stays centered over the blade. (I use this a lot to make 1/4" strips for edge banding).

When I'm in the 1 to 2 inch wide area, I offset the guard so that it's away from the fence as much as possible, leaving me lots of room for push sticks or blocks.

Regards, Rod.

[glenn bradley]

There are many cuts where an overarm cannot be used safely. I swing the guard out of the way for any sled cut and many miter gauge cuts as it cannot track the fences well. Any non-through cuts (dados) would remove the requirement for the overarm. I also do not use it for any cuts that put my hand closer than about 6" from the blade. For thin strips, a sled as Rod mentions solves this issue. In my shop it is primarily for sheet goods.

[Rod Sheridan]

There are many cuts where an overarm cannot be used safely. I swing the guard out of the way for any sled cut and many miter gauge cuts as it cannot track the fences well. Any non-through cuts (dados) would remove the requirement for the overarm. I also do not use it for any cuts that put my hand closer than about 6" from the blade. For thin strips, a sled as Rod mentions solves this issue. In my shop it is primarily for sheet goods.

Hi Glenn, what do use in place of the overarm for other operations?

I'm not sure what you mean by not needing an overarm guard for non through cuts, what other type of guard do you use for those?

Regards, Rod.

[Jason Beam]

What guard do you need if the blade's burried in the wood?

Just keep outta there in case your height mechanism goes haywire.

I disagree with your assessment and neither of us is right. The guarding can MAKE an unsafe situation just as easily as it can prevent one. Use safe practices, guards may not be part of that equation.

[Danny Thompson]

This month's Shopnotes has a push stick that rides on the table top with notches to accomodate a wide variety of material thicknesses. They developed it in conjunction with their shopmade blade guard that is attached to the fence. It looks something like this:

[Jason Beam]

Yikes ... i don't like that thing at all! Unless the black part is the board. What is keeping the board from being raised by the back of the blade? No, i want downward pressure with my push blocks. Controlling the whole cut and both pieces in the end with just a little notch at the end of the board is not my idea of safe practices. Guards or not, that's not a push block you'll find me using! :D

[Rod Sheridan]

What guard do you need if the blade's burried in the wood?

Just keep outta there in case your height mechanism goes haywire.

I disagree with your assessment and neither of us is right. The guarding can MAKE an unsafe situation just as easily as it can prevent one. Use safe practices, guards may not be part of that equation.

Hi Jason, if the blade is in the wood, that's fine, however there will be times that there's no wood on the table, so then you have an exposed blade. That's not safe.

If guards make an operation unsafe, you need a new guard.

If you look at an operation, and are confident that someone from OSHA or whomever you have in the US, would approve the setup, then you're OK.

If the inspector would issue a stop work order, then obviously you're not OK.

Now I know that an inspector would never be in your garage, however it's a great way to evaluate the operation to see if you're doing something you shouldn't be doing.

Regards, Rod.

[george wilson]

How can you rip narrow pieces with the guard in place? As a guitar maker,I do a lot of that.

[Rod Sheridan]

How can you rip narrow pieces with the guard in place? As a guitar maker,I do a lot of that.

A strip ripping sled will allow you to make strips as thin as you want while using the guard.

Nikki had a photo of a sled he made with vacuum holes to keep the thin strips firmly on the sled.......Rod.

[glenn bradley]

Hi Glenn, what do use in place of the overarm for other operations?

I'm not sure what you mean by not needing an overarm guard for non through cuts, what other type of guard do you use for those?

Regards, Rod.

I don't use a guard when making dados. I am definitly not one of these guys that spouts about having worked a saw for 30 years and never using a guard; no way, I like the number of fingers I have;). For a dado cut the blade is not exposed except at the beginning and end of the cut (which is certainly enough to worry about:)).

Even though the blade is covered by the material, I still stick to my rule of keeping hands 6" or so away from the blade area and never lean or press directly towards the cutter. We've all heard the horrible stories about folks who lose fingers when their material suddenly "disappears" and their hands continue into the blade . . . ouch.

For almost all cuts that don't involve a sled, miter gauge or the overarm, I use one or two Grr-Rippers. I also have the usual collection of special push blocks we all tend to make as required. A splitter is in place except when it will block the material path.

I do like and use the overarm but it won't work with my sleds and some other types of cuts. I almost thought I was going to have to decommision it when my new DC went in. I was prepared to re-arrange the shop to keep it. I ended up with a ducting path that not only allowed me to keep it but made it even easier to move in and out of service due to hose positions :D.

[Jason Beam]

Hi Jason, if the blade is in the wood, that's fine, however there will be times that there's no wood on the table, so then you have an exposed blade. That's not safe.

If guards make an operation unsafe, you need a new guard.

If you look at an operation, and are confident that someone from OSHA or whomever you have in the US, would approve the setup, then you're OK.

If the inspector would issue a stop work order, then obviously you're not OK.

Now I know that an inspector would never be in your garage, however it's a great way to evaluate the operation to see if you're doing something you shouldn't be doing.

Regards, Rod.

I completely understand where you're coming from, Rod. And for the most part I agree with your aim. I don't evaluate the safety of anything by asking myself what any government agency would have to say on the matter, though. I look at the operation and envision the forces involved. If there's a factor I don't understand, I err on the side of caution. However, if there's a situation where the operation can be done safer without the guard, then I do it that way.

Clearly we agree that safe processes are paramount. We just seem to think about them differently and that's great :)

As an example, ripping thin strips. My need for accuracy almost always overrides my desire to change the setup, so I like to set my fence to the width I want and just rip away. This does bring up some safety issues that need to be addressed. Namely that little scrap getting loose, or worse, the big mother-board making its way into the back of the blade resulting in a kickback.

As for me falling into the blade, I should note: I don't dare do anything that would ALLOW me to fall into the blade. One of the most important questions running through my mind as I'm preparing a cut is "What happens if the wood disappears?". If the piece I'm cutting is my safety device, it's time to rethink my setup. This is where my 2x4 with a lip on it comes in. If that wood disappears, the 2x4 is sacrificial.

I should also note that while I want downward force on the piece in such a cut, I am not LEANING onto it with any kind of real force. Just enough to keep it under control. This means I'm not really at risk of stumbling into danger if BOTH the wood and my 2x4 disappear. A factor I didn't mention previously was that I also have a fairly tall fence runner that I straddle with my hand as well - which would act as a depth stop should the unlikely catastrophe occur.

I'm not advocating operating without a guard willy nilly. I do believe that there is no guard out there that can be in place, provide full safety in every cut and not be a hindrance to some operations all by itself. I do like you and move mine over for some of the narrow cuts, too. But at a certain point, I will have to sacrifice some control over the piece in order to allow the guard to remain in place. In my opinion a lack of control is far more dangerous than a lack of guarding.

My overarm guard works great 99% of the time and it's there for those cuts it is a benifit to. When it's in the way, though, I strongly believe it is a detriment to the safety of a given cut and should be reviewed. These operations are not very common and they aren't just "take the guard off and go" situations - I hope I haven't implied that at all. If the guard needs to be removed to do it safely, extra care must be taken to recover some of the functionality lost in a safe manner.

Don't take it off if you're not comfortable doing it. Don't take it off if you don't have 100% confidence in your ability to assess the situation and perform the cut in a safe manner without it. By all means, to each his own. :)

[Chip Lindley]

I HATE the notion of TS blade guards as a *necessary* safety appliance! My logic is, IF I can SEE the blade, I can keep my fingers away from it! Unsafe?? Maybe! Maybe Not! (For ME!)

After 30 years I DO still have all my fingers, and not one close call! Kickbacks YES! Blade accidents NO! I've had closer calls at the router table, or using a SkilSaw! (but, thats ME!)

I do LOVE push sticks! I have chewed up 100s of em instead of my fingertips!

I do LOVE the over-arm *TS Duct Collector Shrouds* by Biesemeyer and Excaliber. I have both! When ripping LOTSA cabinet parts there is much less mess. IF....I can rip a part with the *TS Dust Collector Shroud* in place, Great! If its a PITA, I resign myself to cleaning up the mess.

As a disclaimer, I will add that I am not being arrogant or nonchalant in any way! I know my tablesaws well! I tuned them myself! I have utmost respect for that carbide blade! I pay strict attention at the TS, and I know my limitations! I just know what works BEST for me!

[Jim Kountz]

I hate my overarm guard and never use it except when cutting MDF and thats just so it catches the dust. I feel awkward and unsafe trying to work around the darn thing. So for me, its safer to NOT use the thing.
I like to see the blade and know where it is. When I use my overarm guard I cant see the blade as clearly as I can without it and thats when I get nervous so I choose not to use it.

[Dewey Torres]

Check out the shop notes vol 18 issue 103. pg 34

(just Dc not safety ok???)

[Rick Potter]

That issue of Shopnotes is exactly what got me thinking about building mine a little differently. Your pic shows just what I am talking about. That guard is in the way of making the cut, which bothers me.

I have this wild idea of making the shroud fairly narrow, and hanging as far to the left as possible, with the dust hose coming off the left side. I have to allow for my Beis. splitter too. I figure this will leave a clear shot for push sticks on all but the narrowest cuts.

I have installed a post next to the right rear corner of the saw, and plan to mount iron pipe on it to hold the shroud.

Rick Potter

[Andy Pratt]

I have a much longer version of the push block pictured, it also has a stepped lip on the front edge to help get a good grip on the board, with downward pressure. It is long and narrow enough that I can push wood fully past the rear edge of the blade, with the guard (exactor) fully down.

I had a big problem with this before I made this push stick, it has essentially solved every problem I had before this.

No pictures but I'll try to draw a digram here, hopefully it comes out:

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I also have a shop made V-notch push stick that I use to keep the wood up against the fence, and it applies the majority of the downward pressure to keep the board in place up/down and against the fence.

My saw (sawstop) has a riving knife which I use 100% of the time, so I haven't encountered issues with wood raising off the back of the sawblade or kickbacks.

I use the magnetic hold downs (grip tite?) when I need an absolutely perfect cut, if you set one up to work backwards it works better with the overarm guard.

The only operation I do without the guard is one where it physically blocks the path of something - tenon jig or large box for example. Otherwise it's always in place. It has windows on all sides/top so I can always see the blade. I wouldn't want to use an overarm guard where I couldn't always see the blade, which is sounds like some people might have from other descriptions.

I do small strips on the bandsaw/thickness sander, so I can't comment there.

Andy

Edit: One more try on the diagram

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[Charles Lent]

I'm somewhat like Chip. I like the idea of using a blade guard, but find that there are some cuts that are much safer done without one, so I remove the guard and keep my eye on the blade with my fingers always 6" or more away from it, and I never reach over the blade while it's spinning. A splitter falls into the same category. I have the Delta 34-868 popup splitter and use it when I can, but it can't always be used. I recently added a ceiling mounted line drawing laser that shines a cut line across the top of my saw, and this helps by showing brightly on the wood, and my fingers, if they should happen to be in line with the saw blade. This is a real attention getter that isn't so much there to show where the saw cut will be, but to highlight the things (fingers, etc.) that might come into contact with the saw blade if they aren't immediately moved away from the line. I leave this laser on whenever I'm using the table saw, even if using a guard, and I feel that it has improved my safety considerably. I got mine from Harbor Freight for about $5 if anyone wants to try it.

Charley

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I use an offset push stick with my overarm hood. The handle offsets to the right about 4" so that my hand is actually over the fence versus the blade. Great little gadget for those narrow rips. Mine is homemade, but you can also buy ready made ones.