Table Saw or Other Tools

[Jim Chinnick]

Hello all. So briefly introduced myself the other day and in doing so mentioned that I may be purchasing a Sawstop this weekend. Currently my focus in on oval poker tables as displayed but I want to branch out and do other items. Off the top; blanket boxes, dartboard cabinets, sofa tables, cabinetry..

The dilema is I currently do not have a table saw and I'm pretty well set on the SS when it's time which I though was in two days. But now I'm rethinking my logic. For that same money I could go with a DW or Festool plunge saw w/guide, a planer, a jointer, a drill press, a dust system, a bandsaw, a 24" leigh dovetail jig, a router table (pinnacle with PRL V2),...Ok maybe not all of the items but darn close...So my thought process here is that the Dewalt or Festool plunge saw system could for now take the place the TS. I want to focus on dovetail joinery for the blanket boxes, I want to start getting in to Mortise and Tenon joinery for the other furniture hmmm maybe a Leigh FMT? Anyway now I may have to carefully weigh my options which could take more then the 2 days left before I was going to go get my Sawstop...

This pretty much assuming I have a 5k budget which the wife would argue with and say to take off a zero.

What are your thoughts? My main concern is without the TS is making repeated cuts for say cabinetry while keeping the piece square.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jim, if you're willing to spend $5K on a SS, why not purchase a Euro style sliding tablesaw such as the Minimax or Hammer?

You'll get a far more capable machine for similar money.

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Chinnick]

Thanks Rod. The question really is should I spend that money on the Table Saw or would it be better spent purchasing multiple other tools.

ps. I'll look into that saw though.

[Andrew Gibson]

I say get a table saw in the $1000/$1500 range and then get also a jointer, planer, band saw, dust collection system, and a good dovetail saw and learn to cut the dovetails by hand... it really is not that hard. (I'm not a fan of router dovetailing)

At that point you will have a complete shop... and the tools will most likely be the limiting factor.

As for the sawstop, I don't feel it is necessary if you use the saw properly. I have all 9 of my fingers still... ;)

[Scott Wigginton]

Thanks Rod. The question really is should I spend that money on the Table Saw or would it be better spent purchasing multiple other tools.

ps. I'll look into that saw though.

The question then becomes: What tools do you already have? Based on your original response I'm guessing none or limited and if you want to take rough stock to final product then you're going to need all those you listed plus some.

I love the concept of SS, but if I'm right on your situation i couldn't suggest spending the entire budget on a TS and leaving everything else out. Also, if not $5K on the SS how much will SWMBO leave you? :rolleyes:

Some guys here have traded in their TS for the plunge saw/EZ saw path, not me, so I'll leave it up to them to discuss how they work.

I'm thinking of it this way: Would I trade everything in my decently equipped shop (including lumber) for a SS? (which is still more $$ than I have invested)

[Jim Chinnick]

Thanks for the input Andrew. I will def. take it into consideration. Though you may given me 9 reasons to stick with SS :eek:

I suppose the other option is since I do own a business I suppose I could actually market my tables and actually sell some...Don't get me wrong I've sold (12 I think) over the last few years through word of mouth, but I'm not sure where that money went. I suppose a new concept would be to push for more sales and then reinvest that money. But that seems a bit far fetched...:rolleyes: lol

[Jim Chinnick]

Current Inventory off the top of my head:

Porter Cable 690? Router (the small one)
Dewalt Plunge Router 2 3/4
Circular Saw
Porter Cable Biscuit Joiner
Porter Cable orbital palm sander
Dewalt drill (x2)
Hitachi18g brad nailer
Hitachi15g finish nailer
porter cable 22g stapler
Porter Cable compressor
Dewalt 10 Chop Saw

Kreg Pocket Hole Jig
Kreg drawer guide jig
Porter Cable 12" dovetail jig

[Daniel Thompson]

That's a tough choice when you have such a long shopping list vs a single item. I will say that while the Festool plunge saw works well for breaking down sheets of plywood I don't think I would give up my tablesaw especially if I planned to do much work with solid wood. You can use the plunge saw to rip lumber and I do so to put a straight edge on rough sawn lumber but it is no substitute for the tablesaw.

[Stephen Edwards]

I agree with Andrew. With a budget of 5K and a TS in the 1000-1500 dollar price range you still have enough left over to purchase some other very important tools. I'm not slamming the SS, just saying that there are many other good TS for much less money. The SS is a great concept. So is common sense safety habits when working with any woodworking machines.

I'm also in agreement with Scott. Get a decent table saw of SOME kind and let the other guys do their thing with the plunge saws. To me, the TS is the " main first machine" in your arsenal of machines for a woodworking shop. Next is a jointer and planer followed by a band saw. For 5K, if you shop wisely, you should be able to get all 4 of those machines close to your budgeted 5K.

If you wish to save some money and enjoy the experience, you can build your own router table. There are many threads here on this forum that offer sound advice and great ideas for doing just that. There are also many folks who've already built their own table who will be glad to answer questions and step you through the process and offer their input.

I worked for years without a dust collection system. Now that I have one I consider that to also be on the short list of "must haves". You don't need to spend a fortune on that either.

Finally, I suggest checking out your local Craigs List for good quality used machines. In many areas of the country there are currently some great buys out there right now!

Best of luck with your purchases!

[kevin g farrell]

I have also been considering the SS. I do currently have the TS55 plunge saw and also have a 1984 vintage Shopsmith that obviously provides some TS capabilities. I am lacking a jointer and/or planer and was thinking about making that investment rather than upgrading the table saw to a SS.

[Ron Bott]

Go with the Sawstop. If you were ever unfortunate enough to have an accident you would never forgive yourself. It's not as if you are compromising anything, it is the best American style tablesaw available. Buy once, buy the best, and have no regrets.

[Jim Chinnick]

That's actually the way I'm leaning right now Ron. My wife and both agree that the TS WILL be a Sawstop. And since my neighbor is willing to run the 220 power in the basement for me in trade for occassional use, I can't beat that. Then I can apply this new over the top concept of selling things to get more money for more tools and just keep an eye on the used market.

I just have a really bad case of the I WANTS!!!!!

[Jim W. White]

I would go even one step further

instead of the 1000-1500 on a cabinet saw I would get the new Ridgid hybrid which comes with a riving knife feature and a granite top for $600. This looks like a very competant saw with the key safety feature of the riving knife. This would leave you plenty in the budget for your other needs. If it doesn't work out to your liking you sell it for $500 a year down the road no worse for wear. With a tablesaw this inexpensive you could even buy the new Dewalt plunge cut saw/guide system for handling sheet goods and still be under the cost of the ~1500 cabinet saw.

My 2 cents,

Jim in Idaho

[Prashun Patel]

My 2 cents: get a cheaper saw with a riving knife, and spend another $500 on safety devices like holddowns, featherboards, a better blade guard and jigs like a sliding table or crosscut sled or jointing jig.

You can definitely minimize your chance of injury through proper set up of your cuts.

I would also argue that having many tools gives you more options to perform a cut safely. For instance, you might be better off doing some non-thru cuts on a bandsaw or ripping thin sheets of plywood with a circ saw.

[Barry Vabeach]

Jim, some tough choices. You are right to be concerned about the track systems, they do a great job for breaking down sheet goods, but wouldn't be as convenient, in my opinion, as a saw with a fence, to cut multiples - such as rails, legs, etc. By saw with a fence, I would include the SS, other table saws, or a decent sized bandsaws. The bandsaw cut will not be as smooth as a table saw, though as your point out, if you skip the SS, you can get a jointer - which will give you a better edge than the TS. Not to debate the merits of the SS, but I think you need to look at the whole picture - the table saw presents risks of cut body parts and kickback, the SS minimizes the first to an extremely small risk ( failure of the system ) and minimizes the risk of kickback, but doesn't eliminate it. The bandsaw has the riks of cut body parts, but no risk of kickback. If it were me, I would try to outfit the shop as best as possible - jointer, lunchbox planer ( depending on the $$ either the benchtop combo by Jet, or the full size combos by Jet or Grizzly ) then a contractor table saw ( SS or not, but definitely with a riving knife ), dust collection. While SS site says they are working on a version for a bandsaw, it doesn't say when it will be out. I would get at least a 16 inch bandsaw, you won't have any trouble cutting through thick lumber, and ripping pieces to size. I recently bought a 17 inch bandsaw and my tablesaw is used far less often than before and you might be able to get your work done with a bandsaw for the repeated ripping, a miter saw for the repeated short cuts, and that would leave only cutting up sheet goods, and squaring large cuts, which you can do with a track system. Don't forget when you do your budget to allow for blades and cutters. Don't know about the SS, but most saws, and BS, miter saws, etc, come with crappy blades - so allow some funds to get better blades.

[Vince Shriver]

Get the Saw Stop. As to the rest of your list, you will find a way to purchase whatever you really need as those requirements arise even though right now your budget seems stretched.

[Jim Chinnick]

You make a good point Vince. I always seem to find a way and I really don't want to compromise on the saw. The only other saw I considered was the PM2000 and for the configuration of each the difference is about $1,200 from Tool King and I just think that's money well spent.

There happens to be a Rikon 14" Bandsaw about an hour north of me for $500......

and here's one in my town:
14" Delta Band saw. Made in the USA, not one of the new ones from China. 1/2 hp delta motor, open stand.
Works good. Has not been used much. $250.

[Scott Wigginton]

I always seem to find a way and I really don't want to compromise on the saw. The only other saw I considered was the PM2000 and for the configuration of each the difference is about $1,200 from Tool King and I just think that's money well spent.

If you can afford it then go for it, especially if you're realistic about pulling in some side cash. You'll just have to use presurfaced lumber until you can scrap another $1-2K for a jointer and planer.

For the bandsaw it again goes on what you want to do with it, if you want to resaw then you'll probably want a 17" or larger. For me the 17" Grizzly G0513X2 for under a grand will be my next large purchase (unless I can justify the next size up .. honestly dear, its not about more HP :rolleyes:)

[Neal Clayton]

there are a few tools i have that i can do without for some lengths of time but my table saw gets used every day. and if it were anything short of 100% reliable i'd be wandering around like a lost child in the damn shop ;).

however, i would shop for older high quality saws before buying new first. the old unisaws and PM66s aren't done for until the bearings are completely shot, which honestly takes decades (many of them at that).

i don't have anything against the sawstop concept, but it's hard to justify when you can find good used alternatives for 1000-1200 dollars.

i was looking at the denver craigslist and saw these...

http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/1031749482.html would need to replace three phase motor, good deal still
http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/1018045501.html another old unisaw, sellers says he recently replaced the motor
http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/1010354472.html another old powermatic, also needs motor swap if you don't have three phase but the price is right
http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/1004470099.html pm66 for 1500
http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/1000024917.html here's a jet with a router table built in, ex wife selling so highly motivated i'm sure...

[Tony Bilello]

The overwhelming opinion is that the Table Saw is the single most important tool in your shop. With a good table saw you can make lots of jigs that will hold you over for many years before needing certain other tools.
I build contemporary furniture and there are many others like me that feel that with a GOOD table saw and a GOOD blade, a joiner is not needed. Your boards can be glued up right out of the saw.

[Jack Ellis]

I know you're convinced you should not compromise on your choice of table saw but as others have pointed out, any table saw can be used safely if you take the time and make the effort. Remember also that your (presumably) 10 fingers are still at risk when using a jointer, bandsaw, router, jigsaw, biscuit joiner and many hand tools. Your whole body is at risk every time you drive somewhere.

[Josh Reid]

I know I am new here but gonna throw out my .02. I like the idea of the saw stop and understand why it is so expensive, but why pay for something that common sense and proper safety practices can prevent. It wasn't the table saw that got my dad's finger but the jointer. Happened before I was born so I don't remember how it happened. Any tool you buy poses the chance for a significant injury if used ignorantly. Save the money you would have spent on the saw stop and get an older uni or other like has been suggested and buy yourself some other toys to fill out the shop. I know if I had $5,000 to spend and a shop to fill it wouldn't be on one tool alone.

[Jim Chinnick]

Thanks for the links Neal. I just spoke with her and I may just have to do something.

http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/1000024917.html
What are your thoughts on the joiner and or the saw?

[Paul Ryan]

If you have the space Rod has the best idea buy a slider. But if space is a concern go with the saw stop. I was kind of in your shoes a year ago. I build mostly furniture for hobbie. I purchase a real nice steel city saw for $1400 even though SWMBO said if you will keep working buy the SS. Well I chose the cheaper rout. Even though the SC is a really nice saw I am rethinking my choice with some help from the MRS. So now I have to sell the SC first and buy the SS. I keep thinking that is a ton of money to spend on a saw for hobbie use. But it only takes once and I would regret it for the rest of my life. So I am currently looking for a used one. New is really expensive but it is what it is. So my advice if you can afford it, buy the SS and you will be done with table saws for along time unless you go with a slider.

[Rick Moyer]

I inherited an older Craftsman TS. While I would love to have a bigger better cabinet saw, I believe I have been much better served getting many other tools for what it would cost to upgrade my table saw(especially if you're looking at the Sawstop). You can make a circular saw jig to cut sheet goods very well, make dadoes and rabbets with a router, etc.
While a nicer cabinet saw is something I'd like to have, I think I would be happier putting that money into a bigger bandsaw, or maybe even a lathe!

from your list of tools, I wouldn't hesitate to add many new tools versus spending it all on one saw. I like having a table saw, but not at the expense of NOT having the other tools.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I really like Rod's idea, but at the very least, you need a tablesaw. You won't regret it.

[Stephen Edwards]

I inherited an older Craftsman TS. While I would love to have a bigger better cabinet saw, I believe I have been much better served getting many other tools for what it would cost to upgrade my table saw(especially if you're looking at the Sawstop). You can make a circular saw jig to cut sheet goods very well, make dadoes and rabbets with a router, etc.
While a nicer cabinet saw is something I'd like to have, I think I would be happier putting that money into a bigger bandsaw, or maybe even a lathe!

from your list of tools, I wouldn't hesitate to add many new tools versus spending it all on one saw. I like having a table saw, but not at the expense of NOT having the other tools.

Ditto. What Rick said! I bought a used Craftsman Table saw in 1970 and used it for 30 years. Then, I got a Ridgid contractor's saw that I'm still using. God willing, I'll get another TS one day. Both of my saws have served me well enough.

[Myk Rian]

Jim;
I was in the same situation. What I did was buy a Steel City table saw, and I had money left for the tools I needed to make wood working a pleasure.
I bought a Dewalt 735 planer, Ridgid osc. sander, Delta tenoning jig, several other tools, and a used Jet jointer on Craigslist. Had money left over to buy a couple hundred BF of cherry.
Spending a lot of money on one item would have certainly cramped my ability to produce things with the accuracy and quality that I was looking for. I got ALL the tools I needed for the price of one. As stated earlier, if you use a tool correctly and carefully, it is a safe tool.
My avatar is the first project I made with my new tools.

[Jim Kountz]

with a GOOD table saw and a GOOD blade, a joiner is not needed. Your boards can be glued up right out of the saw.

Right on brother!! Its amazing to me how many people WILL NOT believe this no matter how many times you hit them in the head with it.

[Neal Clayton]

Thanks for the links Neal. I just spoke with her and I may just have to do something.

http://denver.craigslist.org/tls/1000024917.html
What are your thoughts on the joiner and or the saw?

i'd pass on the jointer. 6" is too small for lots of things, and considering new 8" jointers with spiral heads go for less than 1000 dollars from a couple of manufacturers, and used price should be half that, it isn't worth saving a hundred bucks to not have that extra 2".

you can overcome many tools being too small, but a 6" jointer and a 2x8 just won't ever get along together ;).

[Myk Rian]

[quote=Neal Clayton;1058608
you can overcome many tools being too small, but a 6" jointer and a 2x8 just won't ever get along together ;).[/quote]
I suppose that 10" board I just jointed on my 6" Jet wasn't possible to do.
FWW had a how-to article on just this subject. Why people keep saying it isn't possible, or isn't easy to do, is beyond me.

[Jim Chinnick]

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to read this post and especially for taking the time to offer their advice and perspective. I greatly appreciate all of your responses.

I realize from searching, the very mention of Sawstop seems to spark some spirited discussion. I hear and understand both sides of the story. After reading the responses here, reading other posts, and talking with my wife, I beleive I have reached a decision.

I tend to agree with the statements about common sense and risk factors but, I also think that alot of accidents are just that, and that there are probably alot of woodworkers out there that practiced common sense throughout their carreers and somehow in a moment still got bit. I don't think of the technology with this saw is a means to replace the common sense safety practices but rather it's nice to have one more safety feature.

From seeing and touching the machine myself with my very limited knowledge of the tool, I feel it seemed to match up well or better then any other saw in the class regardless of the break system. When I compare it to the PM2000 which was really the only other saw I was considering because of the true Riving Knife it also has, I was very impressed. Dollar for Dollar there was about a $1,200 difference between the two and I just feel that if I go with anything other then the Sawstop which appears to be calling to me (I can never fight that when that happens :rolleyes:) I would regret purchasing anything else.

Again I say thank you to everyone. I realize your time is valuable and I appreciate you taking some of it to help me through this. For those of you who were kind enough to share your experiences either on the forum or through private message, who in retrospect wish this technology was available to them prior to their accidents please know that your stories have made an impact on me.

While I hope to never need this technology, I'm sure my wife or future son/daughter (should that day come) or for the guy that just may be helping in the shop some day will all be greatful if the technology is ever implemented.

Beyond that I am definately a cry once type of guy when it comes to purchases and I do believe brake or no brake this would be a solid saw purchase that won't leave me asking for more.

I'm sure you all look forward to pics no matter which side of the fence you land on for this topic so I look forward to being able to share them with you, though I can't say for certain the purchase will be tomorrow...

A sincere thanks everyone!

[Prashun Patel]

Good luck! I'm sure y'll be happy!

[David Ewing]

Jim,

I have the 3HP SS and I am very happy with it. It does dent the tool budget...but safety and finger count is priceless.

I have not had any issues cutting ay wood with the unit and the setup is solid. From the factory it only needed minor tweaking.

I have the 30" extension - wanted the 52 but dont have the space. I am currently mounting the router to the extension and making a saddle fence to fit over the rip fence. Additional cost - router plate and 1 sheet of Baltic Birch. I already have the router. So I now have 2 tools!

I am jonesingo for a jointer and planer...but Ill get there! Im still building my shop out - my now home has 12' cielings!

Take care and good luck.

Dave

[Ron Bott]

I tend to agree with the statements about common sense and risk factors but, I also think that alot of accidents are just that, and that there are probably alot of woodworkers out there that practiced common sense throughout their carreers and somehow in a moment still got bit. I don't think of the technology with this saw is a means to replace the common sense safety practices but rather it's nice to have one more safety feature.


You summed it up quite nicely. Good luck with your new Sawstop.

[Paul Ryan]

I was in at a tool store yesterday kicking the tires on the sawstop again. I came across a man in his 50's looking at the same saw. We got to talking he said he has been a wood worker for over 30 years. He said I had a lapse in judgement a few weeks back. While working on a car of all things he ran over to his table saw to cut out a piece of wood for prying on something in the car and woops. He held up his right hand and is now missing 3/4 of his right thumb. He said I have cut so much wood in my life and I just went to make a quick cut with gloves on, the saw caught his glove and there went the thumb.
You can be the safest person in the world on the table saw but it only takes one second of a lapse in judgement and it will haunt you for the rest of your life. If you can afford it, buy the saw stop.

[Neal Clayton]

I suppose that 10" board I just jointed on my 6" Jet wasn't possible to do.
FWW had a how-to article on just this subject. Why people keep saying it isn't possible, or isn't easy to do, is beyond me.

i've seen people spend 500 dollars worth of time to build a router box to replace a 400 dollar jointer too.

that still doesn't make it a good solution.

when every hour in the shop costs money 'easy' solutions that take twice as much time aren't that great.

[Mike Wellner]

I'd get the new Unisaw with the riving knife