Question on Bricks!!

[Phil Green]

I know this is off-topic for this forum, but you guys have been so great in advising on other questions I've had, so maybe someone can help.

I've been restoring an old brick home, built around 1820. Some of the exterior brick needs replacing. Problem is, this brick is thinner than today's average size brick. My stuff is about 1 3/4 x 7 3/4. Today's standard brick is about 2 1/4 x 7 5/8.

Does anyone know of a place where I could get a "vintage" sized brick or reclaimed brick of the correct size? I am located in upstate NY and the color is mostly orange.

Thanks,
Phil

[Ken Higginbotham]

One option may be to pull bricks from places where they aren't seen like from the back or behind shrubs to use in places that are more prominent
- :)

[Phil Green]

Ken,

Good thought, but there are no outbuildings or other places to grab bricks. I tore down a chimney and hoped to salvage those bricks. Unfortunately, they were so badly degraded that it was not possible.

Phil

[Ken Higginbotham]

I see. Maybe someone in your area will know of a salvage yard...

Good luck -

[Tom Godley]

Many times it is impossible to get bricks that match for those that old - the best you can do is to try to get something close. If you contact a yard that distributes bricks they are often more knowledgeable than the smaller yards that do not work directly with the brick manufactures. In the 1820's bricks were mostly a local commodity so I am sure someone else in your area has needed some prior to you.

Many of those old bricks are quite soft and require careful work to remove and reuse - they end up breaking. The other main mistake that people make is that they use the wrong mortar -- modern mortar is cement based -- cement was not available for mortar in the 1820's. If you use modern mortar to set or re-point old bricks they will crack and the face will de-laminate. You must use a lime mortar!

I owned two homes in an historic area of Center City Philadelphia. One house used brick that matched those on Independence Hall -- so these were available $$$ - also quite orange. The other house we could not get a match - I ended up removing bricks around the rear windows during a window remodel and replaced them with a limestone surround - this gave me enough to fix a row of drip edge all along the front. To just replace a few bricks is very difficult - unless they are an exact color match. The size is not a problem since they can be cut with a wet saw.

Got to www.repointing.com -- he has a lot of information. No affiliation -- I did get an estimate from him once.

[Ken Higginbotham]

The next best option may be to face any new additions with material that compliments the existing brick to the point where it looks like it was part of the original design....

[Tom Godley]

I agree -- Any addition to the structure should be a complementary product.

If you can not match it exactly -- it always looks off.

[Phil Green]

Ken and Tom ,

Thanks, all good points.

I have to assay the mortar as I don't know the ingredients or the combination. I knew that the old mixes are a great deal softer than today's mix.

I agree this is probably a local brick. I read in a history book on the area that there was a fairly large brick kiln not too far away which supplied the brick for many years. It has been derilic for many years.

I have found a local guy who was a well known mason before he retired. I'm going to stop over and introduce myself. He may have some ideas where I can find some brick.

Tom, I lived in Feasterville and Bristol before I moved back to NY. Spent quite a bit of time in Center City chasing skirts. I liked Philly, but I ended up moving back to where I grew up.

Ken, I like your idea on doing something that compliments the design. Not sure what that might be, but it could work. I was thinking about parging on a mortar veneer on individual brick faces after I made a repair. It would have to be the soft mortar mix. It would let me make a good repair that should last and not have to find replacement bricks. Of course, it would show, but if I do a good job on matching the mortar color it would be a complimentary sort of fix. Any thougths on this?

Phil

[Thomas Bank]

As an architect, one of my specialties is restoration work. There is one place local to us that reclaims brick - www.IndependenceAntiqueBrick.com

There is definitely a whole art to making repairs to old brickwork - from using the proper "soft" mortars when repointing so that you don't damage the brick to working in replacement brick for repairs.

[Phil Green]

Thanks Thomas, I'll check them out.

Phil

[Neal Clayton]

ditto everything tom and tom said.

i've seen too many times both here and back home in new orleans the damage caused by ignorant contractors with old brick structures and borg cement mixes.

if you don't have a mason close by that is familiar with historic work try local plasterers, they commonly do that sort of thing too.

as for the color, brick can also be stained. there are companies out there that specialize in stains for brick, stucco, terra cotta tile, etc. google should turn up a bunch.

[Thomas Bank]

Another resource I use is the National Park Service's Historic Preservation Briefs (http://www.nps.gov/history/hps/tps/briefs/presbhom.htm)

As they are the ones responsible for maintaining all those historic landmark buildings, they've become just a little familiar with the processes involved... :)

The first two briefs in the above link deal with masonry issues, as do several others further down.

Another resource is the Association for Preservation Technology International (http://apti.org/)

They deal with the "science" of preservation - what the best practices are for a given situation.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

There is a whole industry in recycled bricks:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=hvd&ei=tWGgSf2BDZa5twfd7IScDQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=recycled+bricks&spell=1

[Phil Green]

Thanks for the additional info guys.

I think I may have just gotten lucky. The chimney I tore down last week, I left the portion in the basement in place until today. I found a band about two feet thick of good bricks that look to be the same size as the outside brick. I will tear them out tomorrow and see if the sizes are the same.

Would anyone like to comment on if the brick might be suitable for exterior applications? Any way to tell if it will be hard enough??

Thanks,
P

[Neal Clayton]

you plan on running your truck into the wall? if yes, probably not hard enough. if not, probably as good as any other brick (only better, soft bricks and soft mortar can tolerate settlement much better than the harder stuff that has been used recently, imo, which is why you see century+ old masonry buildings that have no level and square surfaces, but also have no giant cracks crawling up and down walls like you see on new masonry structures that have settled).

i've always thought it silly that people build structures that break if they move, on a planet that is moving :p.

[Tom Godley]

Tom - interesting additional information. I had seen the National Park site before. They have a lot of info.

To the best of my knowledge in they did not have two kinds of bricks in the 1820's that would have been used in a house. Often rejects were used for walkways.

[Phil Green]

Neal,

While I have no plans to crash my truck into the building, your point is well taken. I guess I will just take them down carefully and make sure the brick is structurally sound before resusing them.

Thanks for all the good advice guys, it is really appreciated.

Phil