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Jim Koepke
02-13-2009, 1:51 AM
Smallest dovetails, or the smallest container made with dovetails?

Then, small tails or small pins?

I saw an article on someone who made doll house furniture including full reproductions of 18th century furniture. Those had some small dovetails with drawer sides about a 1/16th of an inch thick.

jim

John Keeton
02-13-2009, 6:03 AM
What!!??!! I just spent $300+ on new BS chisels so I could do decent normal size dovetails, and now you want me to make them too small to see??!!:eek:

This will be interesting, but I think I will sit and watch:D

george wilson
02-13-2009, 8:30 AM
Chris!! Good to hear from you. How are your special bevel gauges coming along? I have a friend named Bill Robertson who posts on the Practical Machinist's Forum who makes wonderful miniatures. He used to hang out in my shop as a teenager.He has risen to the top of the list of true museum quality makers of miniatures. I visited him in Kansas City a few summers ago.

While I love models and miniatures,I have made only full size objects that can be used for work,or playing music as a career. I'm still trying to get all my stuff put away,Chris,having been laid off with 140 others last month in Williamsburg. I also have to get a guitar on order finished,so I'll be sitting this one out.

Everyone,let me recommend Chris as a maker of fine tools.I've seen them myself.

Richard Dooling
02-13-2009, 8:57 AM
Now that’s a funny thing to see posted.

While I’m sure you’re referring to hand cut dovetails, I have here at my desk a dovetail jig for making 1/16” dovetails. My dad got into this at one time though I suspect that he never actually made anything. The set came as a nicely made brass and steel jig with three bits and two sample boards joined with half blind dovetails. I guess it’s designed to be used with a Dremel.

The jig is signed Willis 1990. There is a mark before the name that sort of looks like an A but is more like a rune. If anyone is interested I’ll post pics.

mike holden
02-13-2009, 9:22 AM
Richard,
Would love to see photos of your jig.

For those who like miniatures, these are pics of a spice box I came across while researching full-size spice boxes for my last project (see "580 handcut dovetails later" under projects)

For those who were not at the WIA show, Chris Vesper makes woodworking tools that qualify as fine jewelry! He has a website, just search on his name.

Mike

109915

109916

109917

109918

george wilson
02-13-2009, 9:35 AM
Those pictures look like Bill Robertson's work as posted on The Practical Machinist's Forum. He even made the lock,key,and everything works.

This blow up model was inspired by the full size display piece Mack Headley made to exhibit at Williamsburg's Wallace Gallery.

Jim Koepke
02-13-2009, 1:46 PM
For those who were not at the WIA show, Chris Vesper makes woodworking tools that qualify as fine jewelry! He has a website, just search on his name.


Actually, if you click on his name in his post above, a menu will give you the option of going to his home page.

jim

Chris Padilla
02-15-2009, 3:55 AM
Very cool stuff!! :)

Chris Vesper
02-15-2009, 8:34 AM
Wow what a great response guys, this is getting me excited. I have seen that exploded cabinet somewhere before, thanks for putting those pics up, didn't Chris Schwarz do a blog article on Bill Robertson not long ago? Someone remind me please.

There is one thing still missing from this thread.. a big line of people screaming "I'm going to have a go!!":mad:;):D

Richard: Although it doesn't qualify for this 'Hand Cut' challenge I would also love to see a couple of pictures of this jig you have. Please put some up when you get a minute.

Jim Koepke: Geez man you are getting a bit technical here. ;):D Smallest box, smallest container, smallest pins or tails??? A box is a container. Just make whatever you make as small as you possibly can by hand.

George: Thanks for your great rap there. Yes those special bevel gauges that no-body else knows about yet ;), sorry to say I heven't even started them yet, I have all the material now but am too busy making the new squares and keeping up with regular items. Will keep you posted on them. I sent you an email a few weeks ago.. starting to think you may not have got it??? Perhaps check your junk folders.
Looks like I may have to make an effort to get to Kansas City next time I am in the US.
That a shame you can't have a crack at the challenge, I understand and thought you might be busy. You would have done better than most I am sure though!!!
I check into the practical machinist forum every now and then, I usually look at the abrasive machining section to get any good surface grinding tips. My surface grinder is having -heap big money- thrown at it right now... :eek: It was overdue for new spindle bearings, which has lead to chroming the diameters, re-grinding the tapered spindle nose and all the flanges and some new flanges I made, also looking at upping the HP on the motor for obvious reasons. Should be a different machine when that is all back together in a week or so. Can't wait!

John Schreiber
02-15-2009, 10:36 AM
I'd be curious about what can be done by machine. Could it be better than by hand? I imagine the laser and the water jet guys could do some pretty tiny dovetails.

Jim Koepke
02-15-2009, 12:10 PM
Jim Koepke: Geez man you are getting a bit technical here. ;):D

Sorry mate, I have been retired less than a year. For many years my employment was as a technician. Since I am a technical detail kind of guy, it is just my nature.

jim

David Keller NC
02-15-2009, 1:24 PM
Hmm - So Chris, are there not some rules as to how these dovetails can be made, and out of what materials? I'm thinking some exceptionally tiny ones could be made with an exacto-knife and some stiff paper...

george wilson
02-15-2009, 1:49 PM
He's in trouble,now,David !!!

george wilson
02-15-2009, 4:45 PM
Chris,you'd better start making dovetails out of onion skin paper !(Or,whatever the Aussie equivalent is.)

Chris Vesper
02-15-2009, 5:52 PM
Hmm - So Chris, are there not some rules as to how these dovetails can be made, and out of what materials? I'm thinking some exceptionally tiny ones could be made with an exacto-knife and some stiff paper...

Hi David, check out my blog article that started all this off see the link in my first post, it spells out the all the rules there (there's not that many).

As paper is a cellulose fiber based material it does qualify for use should you be game enough (silly enough ;):D ) to try. You are more than welcome to submit photos from a scanning electron microscope to prove they are in fact dovetails if you wish...

Yep we have onions here too...:eek: Stop stirring me up.;)

Chris Vesper
02-16-2009, 5:54 PM
G'day woodworkers.
Just letting everyone know I am running a Dovetail Challenge to see who can produce the smallest handcut dovetails. Well why not I say?? A bit of fun for all.

The challenge is out there for anyone worldwide, please pass this on to anyone who would like to have a go. Rules and technical details below...

So who's in?

The small box pictured below is 16mm square and made from 1.2mm thick timber (almost veneer) with hand cut dovetails.

I am throwing down the gauntlet to all to see if anyone can make a smaller and better box than mine. I could do it myself but I want to invite others to have a go for fun. I know it is possible. Any size or design is permitted.

I expect my paltry effort put to shame on both size and craftsmanship. Please do...!

Rules:
1) It must be dovetailed by hand work only.
2) Must be made from timber or similar material (ie ivory), no metal or plastic except for decoration only.
3) Have fun making it, you might want to use a magnifying glass too.

Closing date for submissions is Monday 30th of March 2009.

I have publicized this challenge worldwide and not just in this forum so it is best to email your photos and details direct to me or even mail in the hard evidence for photography in my workshop. I will post another thread in this forum after the closing date with the submissions for all to see and you guys will benifit from seeing other work from across the globe.

This is not a "competition" as such, just a challenge... BUT... I would like to offer a PRIZE for the best effort if anything exceptionally good is submitted. If needed it can all be independently judged on closing.

Happy magnifying!

Cheers. Chris Vesper.

John Messinger
02-27-2009, 8:49 PM
Dear Mike,

That is some very cool stuff! :)

Steve Thomas
03-12-2009, 7:19 AM
Here you go chris...
here is my entry.

this draw is 30mm high.
no knot quite as small as yours, but seeing as though i'm the only entrant for doing new dovetails, does that mean i win???

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=98985&d=1236824409

Cheers
Steve Thomas

Chris Vesper
03-16-2009, 7:34 AM
Here you go chris...
here is my entry.

this draw is 30mm high.
no knot quite as small as yours, but seeing as though i'm the only entrant for doing new dovetails, does that mean i win???


Cheers
Steve Thomas

Hi Steve,
Half blind dovetails, now that gets extra points!

Will have to get ack to you on the winning bit. Hmmmm....

Good effort there? I suppose the answer is obvious but is that dollhouse furniture you are making?

Paul Grant
04-01-2009, 6:37 AM
Sorry boys, not in a million years would I attempt those. It would drive me bonkers at that scale. I'd pull out what left of my hair for sure.

Derek Cohen
04-05-2009, 8:07 AM
This is not my best dovetailing (I did them quick) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/boxbasic.jpg

She-oak, thicknessed first ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/Boxthicknessingsides1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/Boxthicknessingsides2.jpg

Marked ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/Boxmarkingdovetails.jpg

Sawn .. the trick is to gang them ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/Boxsawingdovetails.jpg

Chiseling...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/BoxDovetailschisel.jpg

But this is the smallest dovetails I have cut !!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/Boxfinal1.jpg


OK .. so what are the dimensions ...?!

Imperial - well under 1/16"

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/Dimensions2.jpg

... and Metric - under 1mm ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/boxes/Chris%20Vesper%20Comp/Dimensions1.jpg

It was fun!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Chris Vesper
04-21-2009, 10:08 AM
Hello All,
Thankyou to those that submitted something for the Challenge. It is good to see there are some people as crazy as me out there.

Now for the details and simply to keep everything in the one place, and majority has to rule here...
Please view this forum page (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=89158) : and this one (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=93018)... these pages are on the Aussie forum for all the other entires and wrap up comments.

If anyone on SMC read this and still wants to have a go at making some unbelievably small dovetails then please do so. PM me to let me know they are on the forum.

Thanks again to all that had a go.

Matt Evans
06-24-2009, 8:50 AM
I will have a go. I have some small material, which I should be able to get to late tonight. A simple drawer is all I am planning on doing.