Saw Stop is here

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.sawstop.com/home.htm

I saw the ad or article (forget which) in the latest issue of FWW. How many folks do you think will lay out the 2200 (+ extra for goodies) for a "PM66 equivalent" for this safety factor?

There was a long thread here about Saw Stop a while ago.

Thoughts?

Moderator note: Please comment on the tool question per se. The previous thread on this subject got out of hand and was eventually removed. Please stay on topic of the tool itself. That will save me a lot of editing :).

[Jim Becker]

Nice idea, but I don't think it will get wide acceptance due to the extra cost, despite the potential safety advantages. Many folks are generally loath to spend more than they have to, even when it's a good idea. Unfortunately, many of these people are the very ones who would benefit most from the technology.

Hopefully, they will sell enough machines to generate the revenue to stay afloat. Frankly, it's amazing they are still out there, given the very long delay in getting a machine on the market with the technology, from them or anyone. Somebody must be pouring the bucks in there from someplace! I hope it succeeds as it's a good idea.

[Greg Heppeard]

I just talked to a guy that lost a finger in a tablesaw accident. He said he would have paid double the price of the saw if he had his finger back. I'm thinking about putting one in the classroom of my store and possibly retailing it...I have to check with the powers that be and see if I can do it.

[Kurt Loup]

Aren't left tilt saws touted as safer saws? Wonder why they built a right tilt?

Kurt

[Pete Lamberty]

I think it is a good idea but it is just to expensive. I would like to see it in high school shops. Just to be a little safer. I wonder if there are more accidents in schools than in other areas of woodworking.

[Kent Cori]

I'm looking forward to hearing from the first SMCer to buy one. It looks like there are a number of other features and innovations on the cabinet saw including the drive belt system and a riving knife. I am also looking forward to a report on fit and finish as well as quality of the various castings and other parts. It will take a while to find out about durability. It also appears that you'll need to change the SawStop cartridges ($70) every time you change from a 10" blade to a dado blade.

Sooooo... who's going to be the first SMC member with a SawStop in their shop? All you need is a spare $2200 and you can have the newest cabinet saw to play with. Of course, you'll need to add another $250 to $350 for a fence. :eek:

[Bruce Page]

Am I reading it right? $2200 for the saw plus another $250 -$350 for a fence system? Yikes! :eek:

It does look like a nice cabinet saw.

[Chris Padilla]

Ken, We'll try our best! I wasn't involved in the last one so this one should go smoothly, right?! ;)

Anyone who has had an accident will always speak positively in hindsight. One's attitude changes after such a horrific appendage/digit loss. I bet most folks won't put up the money: "I've been cutting on my TS for 37 years and never even had a close call!" :cool:

I bet they sell a lot of these saws to small companies or industry and the high-school classroom sounds like a great idea. I worry that if you learn to use a Saw Stop in high-school but don't get one later on, will you become complacent?

Right-tilt vs. Left-tilt is a whole 'nother thread, Kurt. Feel free to start one! :D

Bruce, you read the same as I do...you don't even get a fence for 2200! The real price of the saw is more like 2400 minimum for a half-way decent fence system...more like 2500 for a good fence system.

[David Klink]

Shoot, $700 for the contractor saw plus $150 for the iron extensions. I watched their video demos. Is that a hot dog they're using to demonstrate the thing?:confused:

I tihnk labeling it the best contractor saw on the market may be a wee bit premature, too. It may be the safest, but even that wouldn't be a bragging right until it's truly been proven.

I also noticed they sell extra brake cartridges for it, with a cartridge for a 10" blade being $59, and one for a 7" or 8" dado being $69. With it being more expensive, I assume the cartridge for the dado is a different, separate unit to handle the extra weight. If that's the case, does that mean you would have to change the brake cartridge to use a dado stack?

Interesting.

[Rob Russell]

I thought the SawStop came with a Bies clone fence.

I feel the SS could actually make people complacent, sort of like the 4x4 SUV's and trucks around here who forget that 4WD doesn't make you stop any faster.

Am I looking to trade my saw in for a SS? I don't theeeeenk so. :D

[JayStPeter]

If I didn't already have a cabinet saw, I'd think about it. I'll never know what I would have decided had the SS been available when I was looking for a saw. Sounds like around $400 for the SS mechanism over a PM66 (assuming equal quality). I think you need new cartridges when one is used (i.e. the saw saves your finger). I think the key here is that it is equivalent to a PM66 quality wise. I would also have some concern about future availability of cartridges/parts as I'm sure SS isn't "in the money" quite yet. But, I would certainly find the $400 cheap if it ever went off. And, a riving knife would be good too.

Jay

[Rich Konopka]

I have been following the Saw Stop for a year or so. I have a Delta Contractors saw that does not have DC capabilities and will eventually replace it. Whether I buy a Saw Stop, PM66, General, or a Uni is still determined.

A couple of things I noticed:

The right extension table has no support legs. Is that Stable? will it sag?

It requires a special brake for Dado's?? At least thats what the pricing says. Does that mean I have to change the brake cartidge every time I switch to/ from a Dado?

[Tim Sproul]

Well,


I could do without my table saw entirely.....so no SawStop for me.

If the cartridge fires...you'll need to replace the blade and the cartridge. I'm a bit leary at the bearings and arbor and trunnion all staying in tip top shape and proper alignment as well....The dado stack requires a separate cartridge...because of smaller diameter and larger width and larger mass. Kiss your $200 stack good by...that said...if it stopped an appendage/digit loss, I'd gladly pay for a new saw. Hard to replace a hand or finger or arm.....better yet, I'll just take the money I would spend on a sawstop and put it towards a big 'ol bandsaw and avoid table saw dangers all together :)

[Chris Padilla]

I'd like a better shot of the dust shroud they place around the blade. If that could be sold separately or retrofitted to my TS....

[Dennis Peacock]

What I don't get is that if you get a finger in the spinning sawblade for a "split second" isn't the damage mostly already done? Is the SS just to better prevent a digit loss due to human body momentum into the blade? Is this the overall idea? I haven' t been following the SS ordeal.

[Chris Padilla]

Dennis,

Click on "Video Demo" to see it live in action. They show you how much damage you'll get on your finger...I guess it isn't bad and certainly better than loosing a finger.

I want to see the inventor actually spill some blood for his product and ram his own finger into the blade. That would be something! :eek:

I assume they have good data showing a hot dog is equivalent to a live human finger?

[Michael Ballent]

I really like the idea of the SawStop but I think that they missed the boat by not including the fence for the saw. It's already pricey as it is but then you need to add another 200-300 bucks to the mix and now its more big $$$. Will they support a separate splitter so you can use an overarm guard? The technology is cool, but there are still many questions as to how the thing works. Does it damage the blade when it stops the blade?

It's already a pain to switch to a dado, but then you need to change a cartridge as well. This is new information to me. Hopefully no one needs to pay for the new cartridge, but I am sure they would be very content paying for a new one... Also is the saw no longer operable after the brake is activated?

I can see a huge potential market in industry... but only in medium to small shops the larger outfits probably would not use them since they usually need much larger machines that what SS is currently offering. It would be nice to see JetPowermaticDeltaCraftsmanRyobi offer a solution like this... Competition is good for all of us, but their lawyers will probably not let them. Sadly, I do not see the schools buying them since many seem to be getting rid of shop classes altogether. :(

[Jack Hogoboom]

Dennis,

I remember seeing a picture of a hotdog they used to demo the SS mechanism. It had a tiny little nick in it. The SS guy explained how they get the teeth out of the way so quickly.

If I didn't already have a cabinet saw, I'd spend the extra $400 bucks in a heart beat. So far, I've been lucky and only had one middling kickback accident. But I still have the scar and I'd feel a lot safer with this thing.

What's interesting to me is that if the SS achieves any kind of market penetration at all, then everyone will have to include a similar mechanism. There is no way Delta for instance could keep selling a saw without one. It would be like trying to sell a saw without a blade guard. Once it becomes accepted in the industry, it would be a design defect not to include it.

Jack

[Dan Mages]

My grandfather built furniture for a living and lost two fingers in an accident. I have always had a fear of saws because of this. So yes, this feature is quite exciting to me. However, what is the quality of the saw in general? How does it compare quality and cutting wise to a Uni, a PM66, etc? A junky saw with a cool feature is still a junky saw. How long will it be before Delta or PM come out with this feature?

Dan

[Ian Barley]

I think its a clever idea and an interesting use of technology but I cannot say that I would ever trust it and also feel that it covers a risk that can be thoroughly managed without it.

There is a temptation to compare it to safety devices fitted to motor cars but the big difference for me is that in a car (automobile) I am protecting myself from me but also from other road users. With a table saw I am in sole charge of the process and therefore feel that I can manage the risks.

The other interesting thing for me is that the sawstop protects against a high severity, low probability risk - physical contact with the sawblade. With a tablesaw the higher probability risk is kickback, which can be largely managed with splitter/riving knife. These to me are significantly more important features but because they are not whizzbang technology they seem less impressive.

Bottom line - If I could add this level of protection for $50 I would. For $500 I probably wouldn't. Even if it was there I would never trust it to work and would still rely on my own actions for my own safety.

[JayStPeter]

I don't think losing a cartridge or blade would bother me if I just wound up with a nick on my finger. That would be less catastrophic than what would've happened. I'd happily get a new cartridge and blade. I think it's a feature I'd just rather not take advantage of.

In thinking about the cost, lots of people have spent $500 for a splitter and overhead guard. I spent a little less, but close. The SS also has a blade shroud DC port. Should work better than most other cabinet saws, even with overhead guards with DC. I would also like to see more detail of the blade shroud, riving knife, and blade guard attach/detach operation.

Chris,
I remember reading in the early days that they showed the mechanism work with a human finger on a non-spinning sawblade and showed how the hot dog triggered it the same way. Judging by feel, I'd say the hot dog is easier to cut than a finger, so probably less damage to the finger.

I bet that thing is pretty scary when it goes off.

Jay

[Chris Padilla]

Even if it was there I would never trust it to work and would still rely on my own actions for my own safety.Ian,

You bring up an interesting point. I can't imagine EVER getting complacent with a table saw but I bet it happens to professionals. I think hobbiests might pay better attention. My father has an uncle who lost an arm in a sawmill accident....

Still, one should always practice and rely on oneself for all actions around a deadly spinning blade on a TS but one has to figure out if the cost of just a tad more protection is worth it or not.

I know that I will never, EVER put my fingers in jeopordy of a table saw blade...I'm just too conscientious to do such a thing. It is quite healthy to be scared every time we turn on the table saw...it forces you to evaluate all cutting situations.

BTW, "nice" avatar.... ;)

[thomas prevost]

Having seen it at a trade show, I have some concerns. 1) the hotdog test is done at extremely slow forward speeds. What if one was ripping 1/4" plywood very fast? 2) throw the hotdog into the blade such as what would happen in a slip type accident. It was mangled to shreds. Similar to a kickback and the hand landing forcibly on the blade. It will stop before the arm is cut off, but there be substancial damage.

It has some safety potential but, I feel is minimal compared to the many types of accidents that can happen. How long before there is a mega lawsuit, putting them out of business and there is no availablilty for new cartridges? What has happened to common sense, blade guards, etc?

Just my 2 cents.

[Chris DeHut]

For me, the most serious shop accident I have had (in about 25 years in various shops and very large machinery), is 10 stitches in my left thumb. Not from a power tool but your basic 1" chisel.

The Saw Stop has caused me more internal debate than I care to think about. At first it appeared like a good idea - similar to air bags in a car if you will. Then the company tried to force others into using the device on their saws - don't know how that is coming along but not important in the over all picture. Now it appears as though it finally has come about.

As someone else mentioned, you can easily drop $500.00 or so on over arm blade guards and other devices, so in reality, the cost should not be an issue. The damage to a saw blade, the "Cartridge", and even if it takes out the arbor and bearings is truly a non issue as well. If I come into contact with a spinning saw blade, serious damage to me is going to happen. The cost to replace the: cartridge, stacked dado cutter, the arbor, and the spindle bearings is going to be nothing compared to the real loss we are talking about - loss of limb, even if it is only a finger.

As for it causing me to become complacent on the machine because IT (Saw Stop) is there - doubtful that IT would cause that. More often than not, repetition is the cause of complaceny.

A few years ago I was consulting at a large manufacturing plant. As with most companies, they have a mix of older machinery and newer machinery. One machine in particular is an older (about 1930s) horizontal mill. The operator wasn't paying attention to where her arm was and the machine cut the arm off - between the wrist and elbow. This accident caused the company to re-evaluate all of the machinery in the company and they came up with a plan to correct the problems. One issue that was very interesting in their research was that while they could stop the machine with a standard light curtain, the spindle wouldn't stop until the drive train momentum would down. To correct this, they also installed brakes on the motors to stop them very quickly.

It appears as though the Saw Stop, deals with this issue using the force of the cartridge against the blade. This in effect stops the spinning blade instantly and cuts power to the motor. However, I have to wonder what happens during spin down?

For example, you make a ripping cut and stop the motor (left knee against switch as is my routine). Then you reach across the blade to grab the stock but bump the blade with your finger. At this point the saw is "Off" and the blade is spinning with enough force to cause serious damage should a body part come into contact with the blade, but with the saw off, does the Saw Stop device still function?

I certainly hope that the device becomes a success in some form or another. I guess it is like having all of the safety devices in my truck: Seat belts, Air bags, Anti-lock brakes, energy absorbing structural members, etc, etc, etc, etc, - not just one device trying to save me, but many working together.

Chris DeHut

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

As I understand it, the blade retracts while it is stopping once activated.

However, you bring up a good question regarding power being cut. From what I read and understand, the Stop is only active when the power button is turned on. I bet they could electronically have the Stop active for a couple seconds after a power down or just turn on when it senses blade movement. Excellent question/point, Chris.

Great thread, Fellas! You should be proud of us, Ken.! :D

[Terry Hatfield]

Chris,

Good thread.

I'm still riding the fence on the saw stop device itself. As one that has had a significant TS accident I feel that my accident would have been virtually nothing, probably a bandaid would have been sufficient if I were using the Saw Stop, BUT the actual cause of my accident was being too tired to be in the shop in the first place. I simply don't go out there if I'm tired. Hobbist can do that. It's another thing in a professional setting. I certainly can see the merits of the system but still can't decide if I would pay that much more for the SS or not.

I really do like the riving knife and the dust collection shroud on the saw. Both of these innovations are worth paying a few extra bucks for. If Griz, Delta, PM, Jet or whoever would make a saw with these innovations I believe the additional cost over a "regular" saw would be negligable. Perhaps $100 to $200. I would buy one in a heartbeat if someone would only make it.

I am also interested to know if one could use a dado set without changing the cartridge. I don't know for sure but I would guess that the percentage of TS accidents that happen with a dado set in the saw would be much lower than those that happen with a regular blade. Can you use the dado without changing the cartridge??? I see no info on their site about that.

Terry

(edit) Perhaps one could just use the lock out switch on the saw as if you were cutting metal to turn off the SS device for dado use. Seems right to be but what do I know.

[Ed Falis]

I thought the SawStop came with a Bies clone fence.

I feel the SS could actually make people complacent, sort of like the 4x4 SUV's and trucks around here who forget that 4WD doesn't make you stop any faster.

Am I looking to trade my saw in for a SS? I don't theeeeenk so. :D

While I don't think a sawstop would make people complacent (if they have any brains), you comment about SUV's reminds me of an editorial I saw in the paper a few years ago. The guy writing it said "SUV's allow people to break down further from civilization than ever before"!

Now, I know he wasn't talking about folks out in the country where the truck actually matters and is useful, but about those in the city and 'burbs with these tanks. Like the women peering over the dashboard driving like they're invincible in the snow and ice - yikes!

I enjoyed the comment.

- Ed

[Douglas Robinson]

Are people driving more recklessly since seat belts became mandatory, since air bags were installed, how about since helmets were required for motorcycles.

I lost the tip of my right pointer finger when I was 9 in a dumb, but non-woodworking related accident. I am an extremely careful woodworker. If I did not already own a Jet cabinet saw I wood consider buying the SawStop. I would need to know a lot more about the saw in addition to the safety mechanism. There is no price you can put on an injury that lasts forever. I think we are a little jaded in our point of view.

On another forum someone posted about losing the tip of their thumb and that started a lot of people thinking about their blade guards. Some people put hundreds of dollars in to overarm blade guards with dust collection. These are similar subjects. Admittedly you can add a blade guard to almost any existing table, unlike the SS.

BTW I am in the process of finishing my basement, a part of which will be my shop. I plan to add a electrical subpanel that has a keylock so that all the outlets are disabled in the event my children enter the shop without me. To me that is a reasonable cost for the safety it provides. (The foregoing are just my opinions, and no brain cells were injured in the forming of those opinions.) :)

[Terry Hatfield]

"Admittedly you can add a blade guard to almost any existing table, unlike the SS."


Douglas,

You bring up an interesting point. Is there some reason a overhead guard could not be used on the SS tablesaw??? I've studied the pics quite a bit today and I don't see why it couldn't be done. I would certainly like to add one if I had a SS tablesaw. I've used one for so long now I'm not about to use a saw without an overhead guard, Saw Stop or not!!!

t

[Steven Wilson]

$2200 to address the second leading cause of injury on a tablesaw? Money foolishly spent! As I see it there are three areas of concern with the tablesaw; kickback, amputation/cutting, and pushback. Pushback (saw pushes work back at you) is annoying, probably doesn't cause much of a problem except for a few stained shorts. The SawStop does address the amputation/cutting flesh problem but likely not with dato blades. Properly guarding your saw will also solve the amputation/cutting flesh issue. Kickback is not addressed at all with the SawStop and this is a major area of injury for table saw users. Fortunately amputation and kickback problems can be addressed by using a properly adjusted riving knife and a decent guard; check out the european combo machines to see how it's done right. If the SawStop folk's were really interested in selling an inherintly safer product then they would design an American style cabinet saw with a proper riving knife with an attached, and detachable, guard.

[Chris Padilla]

Are people driving more recklessly since seat belts became mandatory, since air bags were installed, how about since helmets were required for motorcycles.
Tough to say and mesure I think. I'm guessing probably, "No" but a "Yes" wouldn't surprise me a bit. I grew just fine without being in a child seat, too, but now those are the law. I dunno. Rules, rules, rules.



BTW I am in the process of finishing my basement, a part of which will be my shop. I plan to add a electrical subpanel that has a keylock so that all the outlets are disabled in the event my children enter the shop without me. To me that is a reasonable cost for the safety it provides. (The foregoing are just my opinions, and no brain cells were injured in the forming of those opinions.) :)
Interesting thought! I'm redoing my garage and you've provided some fat to chew on here as I have a little 2 year old girl. I also have a swimming pool in my back yard that simply won't work with a fence (too close to the house) so my solution is to make darn sure my daughter knows how to swim and teach her best I can. I think it is a fine line between protecting our kids and teaching them. I can be tough to discern at times....

[JayStPeter]

$2200 to address the second leading cause of injury on a tablesaw? Money foolishly spent! As I see it there are three areas of concern with the tablesaw; kickback, amputation/cutting, and pushback. Pushback (saw pushes work back at you) is annoying, probably doesn't cause much of a problem except for a few stained shorts. The SawStop does address the amputation/cutting flesh problem but likely not with dato blades. Properly guarding your saw will also solve the amputation/cutting flesh issue. Kickback is not addressed at all with the SawStop and this is a major area of injury for table saw users. Fortunately amputation and kickback problems can be addressed by using a properly adjusted riving knife and a decent guard; check out the european combo machines to see how it's done right. If the SawStop folk's were really interested in selling an inherintly safer product then they would design an American style cabinet saw with a proper riving knife with an attached, and detachable, guard.

Ummmmm, did you look at the SawStop saw? It has a proper riving knife and detachable guard as well as the stopping mechanism. It also has a proper dust collection shroud. That's what lead me to say it has all the features one could spend hundreds for to upgrade a typical US saw. To me, the blade stopping mechanism is just a bonus.
In reality, it's only competition is the Laguna TS (which I still drool over) and european saws (ditto).
I don't agree with everything they've done (treading thin ice here I know). But, I think in the end they did manage to put out a product that looks like a winner.
Unfortunately, the contractor style saw didn't get the riving knife and slick looking guard. That one doesn't look like a winner to me.

Jay

[John Parker]

I had the accident that this device is suppose to prevent. I slipped and my right middle finger tip contacted the blade. The interesting part was this. The skin of my finger tip never touched the blade. what contacted the tooth of the blade was my finger nail. When this happened it pulled my finger down and into the blade. The blade shattered the end bone of my finger. The doctor was amazed that the skin of my finger was intact. I wonder if the saw stop would have helped. Needless to say I am very careful around my table saw. I would not pay 400.00 dollars for this device now becouse this type of accident WILL NOT happen to me again. I am much more fearful of kickback.

John Parker

[Peter Kuhlman]

I do not know what makes this thing work. I wonder what could cause a miss-fire of the cartridge? Would cutting wet wood, various soft metals, coated plastics or some such item cause the cartridge to accidentally fire and destroy your nice new 100$ blade? There is most likely something other than a hotdog or finger that can activate this system. Like others, I got a bad taste when they tried to force/legislate the SawStop into use but I do believe in using practical safety devices. I spent money for a quality cabinet saw, Biesmeyer splitter, Delta overarm guard combo after a really bad kick-back accident with my Craftsman saw due to it loosing its blade to slot adjustment after adjusting the blade for bevel cuts so the cost of the SawStop as an additional feature would not be a major issue to me.
Pete

[Chris Padilla]

Peter,

Read up a bit more. They claim that green/wet wood is fine and even cutting non-ferrous metals is fine since you can turn the SS off. Dunno about plastic, however.

Where are you guys reading that it destroys the saw blade you are using? I don't know how the brake works but I guess it destroys several teeth on the blade, perhaps?

I think the FAQ is sorely lacking but I suppose if they get wind of this thread, they might update it?

[Warren White]

I hope this is taken in the spirit in which it is intended....

There is a lower cost, lower tech answer. My wife suggested this addition to my table saw:

[Cecil Arnold]

I think the SS is a little short of where our equipment needs to be and the price seems to be a bit much. We have seen very little in the way of safety improvements (and certinaly no real innovation) since the start of OHSA in 1970, which forced altogether too many quick and dirty fixes on the WW equipment manufacturing industry. I would make a small wager that the extra $5-700 for the SS represents a rather large insurance premieum per unit sold. The better dust collection shrowd, reeving knife, the addition of an overhead guard, and a more competetive price should sell saws. The addition of the blade stop, to me, represents added insurance that you always hope never to use. Unfortunately, my Jet CS is only two years old, and I'm still adding things to bring it up to where I feel it should be. Have the Bess. splitter and will be adding an overhead guard soon. Slightly off thread, I think manufacturers should consider ease of use for the devices they load us down with, the splitter is a case in point, as the stock item is a pain to use so I didn't and had a real attention getting kick back with some 1/4" ply. Just my opinion.

[Mike Cutler]

Chris. Nice thread you've started here, so I'll add my.02. I've been e-mailing with the Sawstop folks off and on for the last 18 months, about the availability of this machine. Personally I find this technology fascinating. My only hesitation is the question of long term survivorship of the company, not the actual operation of the safety device. The actual saw itself looks to be a Taiwanese made cabinet saw similar to many others on the market, so I would expect to get good results with the actual machine itself. The safety device works on the capacitance reactance principal, and the reaction time is in milliseconds. I wouldn't expect to do any damage to the saw itself in the instance of the safety system actuating, I believe that either the belts would spin on the pulley or the blade would spin on the arbor. It may damage the blade itself, but that is a small price to pay. I wonder how the safety system works with the CMT Teflon coated blades on the market. Is there enough insulative properties in the teflon coating to mitigate the operation of the safety system? As to the point of the dado stack/ additional braking device,I thought about it but it really isn't an issue for me. I do dado's on a router table, and will probably never do them on a TS again ( for me there is just no comarison in the quality of the dado, when it is done with a router vs a TS). As I stated, I like the machine but I worry about parts replacement down the road, not just for the safety system but for the saw itself. Overall is the machine worth it? I think it is. I view it as another device to be used along with splitters, blade guards, pushsticks, Grippers etc. So far for me my most serious accidents have all come from chisels, and the only TS "accident" I've ever had was when my hand slipped taking a blade off and one of the teeth caught my finger. Bled like a stuck pig for a few minutes and the TS wasn't even plugged in! Once again, Nice thread you've started here

[Frank Pellow]

I think its a clever idea and an interesting use of technology but I cannot say that I would ever trust it and also feel that it covers a risk that can be thoroughly managed without it.

There is a temptation to compare it to safety devices fitted to motor cars but the big difference for me is that in a car (automobile) I am protecting myself from me but also from other road users. With a table saw I am in sole charge of the process and therefore feel that I can manage the risks.

The other interesting thing for me is that the sawstop protects against a high severity, low probability risk - physical contact with the sawblade. With a tablesaw the higher probability risk is kickback, which can be largely managed with splitter/riving knife. These to me are significantly more important features but because they are not whizzbang technology they seem less impressive.

Bottom line - If I could add this level of protection for $50 I would. For $500 I probably wouldn't. Even if it was there I would never trust it to work and would still rely on my own actions for my own safety.

I agree completely with what Ian said. In addition, I would worry that, if I purchesed one of their saws, I might shortly be left with a $2,500 piece of equipment with no one to support it. I have exactly that situation with a computer that I purchased a year and a half ago and I don't want to repeat that fiasco.

I will be in the market for a cabinet saw next year and will probably purchase a General.

[Jason Roehl]

Where are you guys reading that it destroys the saw blade you are using? I don't know how the brake works but I guess it destroys several teeth on the blade, perhaps?

The brake is some sort of piston that slams into the spinning blade, at least that is what I recall from earlier discussions. I'm not sure whether the damage is primarily teeth, warpage or both, but to take a blade from 3000-4000rpms to 0 in a few milliseconds, you have to figure there will be damage. There's bound to be stress fractures, missing teeth, bends, who knows?

This gets me to thinking. What happens when someone decides to cut something, and, not wanting to mess up their good blade, throws on a cheap blade? Could a cheap blade shatter and provide projectiles if it were involved in an SS firing?

[Steven Wilson]

Ummmmm, did you look at the SawStop saw? It has a proper riving knife and detachable guard as well as the stopping mechanism. It also has a proper dust collection shroud.
Sure did. You can have a riving knife OR you can have a guard. Silly, plain silly. Mount the guard on the riving knife and get rid of those silly anti-kickback pawls which do nothing for kickback except make things worse.

[Bart Leetch]

How long before one of the big companies offers enough money to buy Saw-Stop out that the owner can't refuse getting rich. Then will it be shelved ?

[Ian MacDonald]

For example, you make a ripping cut and stop the motor (left knee against switch as is my routine). Then you reach across the blade to grab the stock but bump the blade with your finger. At this point the saw is "Off" and the blade is spinning with enough force to cause serious damage should a body part come into contact with the blade, but with the saw off, does the Saw Stop device still function?


I asked the inventor this same question. I was also curious how the device worked during a power failure. He indicated at the time that the device would operate correctly even after power was removed from the saw.

Regards,

-- Ian

[Bill Grumbine]

During the entire Saw Stop debacle I have been very vocal in opposing their initial marketing strategy, which was to impose this thing on us by government fiat. I even wrote the owner/inventor of the thing to express my opinion on the matter.

However, I applaud them for taking it to the marketplace. Personally I do not see the value. Yes, there is a value there, but is it a cost effective value? I do not think so, and so I would not buy one. However, if they get enough people to think so and buy one, then they have succeeded in the free market, which is the way it should be.

Bill

[Rich Konopka]

During the entire Saw Stop debacle I have been very vocal in opposing their initial marketing strategy, which was to impose this thing on us by government fiat. I even wrote the owner/inventor of the thing to express my opinion on the matter.

However, I applaud them for taking it to the marketplace. Personally I do not see the value. Yes, there is a value there, but is it a cost effective value? I do not think so, and so I would not buy one. However, if they get enough people to think so and buy one, then they have succeeded in the free market, which is the way it should be.

Bill
Bill:

If you look at the auto industry, innovative new features such as anti-lock brakes, Traction control, airbags, disc brakes, etc.. have always been introduced as options and then eventually became standard features. Mass market acceptance will push it into a mainstream feature.

If Saw Stop is technically successful, it has a finger saving chance of survival. All that it will take to be successful is a good writeup in FWW, Wood, Popular Woodworking, or SMC ;). If people are willing to pay for Pet Rocks, Chia Pets, George Foreman Grills (My Sister swears by it) , or any Ron Popeil gadget, then Saw Stop will succeed.

People are skeptical of Saw Stop and especially cost conscious. Jay St. Peter nailed it when he said:



In thinking about the cost, lots of people have spent $500 for a splitter and overhead guard.

I really think it is skeptism on whether it actually works and not really the cost. I sincerely hope that it succeeds and I will purchase it once I feel that Saw Stop is technically and financially sound.

Cheers

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I wouldn't buy it. I don't like the delays or the legislation attempt they made. I am also surprised they are still afloat. In another thread on Woodnet, the guy who is in charge posts that they have had huge volumes of orders, yet we see no saws. I realize there are tons of things to consider and work out during a new product roll out, but I have a bad feeling about this one.

I think that if I had a new product and had millions of dollars in orders, I wouldn't have time or any reason to try and get a new law passed requiring this device on ALL new tablesaws sold in the USA. Also there must be a really good reason Delta, PM, Jet and everyone else passed on this idea. I guess we will see when they finally deliver one.

They use a hot dog BTW because of it's similarity to a finger. Somehow the blade is supposed to sense the electromagnetic pulses in the finger and the device then stops the blade.

[Mark Singer]

A lot of tablesaw accidents occur when the workpiece moves in an unexpected way (kickback or lateral/diagnol movement). When this happens it pulls the operators hand into the blade with the work piece. I don't think SawStop would help in this situation. Another common accident is when a push stick slips off the workpiece and the forward motion carries the operator and push stick into the blade. Again it probably won't help to have the SawStop. We should all be using enclosed "D" style push sticks. These type of passive safety devices are very helpful. I personally would not trust the technology of the SawStop.

[Rich Konopka]

[QUOTE=Kelly C. Hanna]I wouldn't buy it. I don't like the delays or the legislation attempt they made. QUOTE]

Kelly:

They are doing what every other big company does with the Goverment. LOBBY.
You have to admit that there is alot of threads and interest on the Saw Stop. To me that means there is a market.

Regards

[Kent Cori]

The real test will be how it works in a typical shop setting. Mark brings up several situations that occur all too frequently. If the SawStop will save an operator's hand from damage, word will spread and it will eventually be widely accepted. However, if it is not effective or the units fire without sufficient cause, the device will have a short commercial life.

[Chris Padilla]

Well, let's hope to hear from a real user...hopefully unbiased. I went ahead and sent a link to this thread to the info email address at Saw Stop. Hopefully they will peruse it.

Mark, I think you nailed it with typical situations in which an operator's hand might tangle with a moving saw blade. However, from what I understand, this device should still work fine in the situations you describe.

A sensor of some kind simply monitors the metal saw blade. The metal is a conductor, of course, and therefore can allow charge flow (a.k.a. current). This inventor must have found of sensor that reads the magnetic field the current generates (i.e. a coil maybe, an inductor--inductors store energy in a magnetic field) and found that the field changes depending on what contacts it. He also must have noticed that a human being touching it produces a particular field or field pattern and that it is unique enough to identify. Kudos to him!

I'm sure the overall amplitude or energy-content of these electircal signals is quite small. If I recall correctly from a college Psych class, the human body can produce microvolts of electricity (70 uV comes to mind) and that may be enough to sense through the saw blade when a finger contacts it. Obviously a piece of wood doesn't produce this or produces something very, very different or differerent enought to differentiate.

Notice that you need to turn the device off if you are cutting a conductor (i.e. aluminum, soft brass, etc.) on the TS. Why? Well, you are touching the metal and producing the same signal the sensor is looking for so it should trigger the moment you push the metal through the blade. Perhaps if you are wearing gloves, this might not happen while cutting a metal. Just a guess on my part.

Great discussion, Fellas...great. :D

[Tim Sproul]

Dennis,

I want to see the inventor actually spill some blood for his product and ram his own finger into the blade. That would be something! :eek:


chris,

I do believe Steve Gass, owner/inventor/investor or whatever of SawStop, has done this very thing........

Link (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=1008228&Forum=UBB2&Words=Yes.%20If%20memory%20serves%20correctly%20%2 8and%20I%27m%20almost%20sure%20it%20does%20because %20I%20talked%20to%20him%20about%20it%29%2C%20Stev e%20Gass%20was%20the%20one%20who%20deliberately%20 put%20his%20hand%20into%20the%20blade.%20I%20asked %20him%20if%20he%20puked%20immediately%20afterward %20and%20he%20said%20no&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=1008074&Search=true#Post1008228)

There is the link if you want to follow up and verify.....

[Chris Padilla]

Tim,

That comment was *mostly* tongue-in-cheek but it would certainly lend a lot of credibility to the device and the confidence of Mr. Gass.

Still, it would be hard for *anyone* to purposely put their finger into a deadly spinning blade!

[Steve Gass]

Chris, thanks for inviting me to participate in this thread. There are lots of great questions - I just wish you would have invited me sooner so I wasn't so far behind! I'll try to go through the various questions in order.


Kurt - Our saws are both left tilt. The prototype contractors saw we pictures on the website was a right tilt, but the production units are all left tilt.

David - You have to swap the cartridge when you change between regular and dado blade. This only takes a few seconds once the blade is already off and doesn't require any tools. The dado cartridge has a larger brake pawl to position the contact face next to the perimeter of the 8" blade and it is wider to accommodate the wide face of the dado.

Jay - Our saw is a significant step up in quality/size from a PM66 or a Unisaw. For instance, the cast iron table is 25% larger than either of those saws and the saw weighs over 100 pounds more than a PM66. The internal mechanism is far beefier and includes the European style riving knife and blade shroud dust collection. Most of the cost increase relative to the PM66 is in these mechanical features of the saw, not the SawStop system. The part of the saw that is SawStop adds about $100-150 to the price of the saw.

Rich - The table will have a support leg, we just didn't have it for the photo. One leg on the 36" fence and two on the 52".

Dennis - The system stops the blade fast enough that even though it doesn't react until you have actually touched the blade, in most cases the injury will be relatively minor - especially compared to what would happen without it. The blade normally stops in less than 1/200th of a second from the time you contact the blade and therefore the cut depth can be calculated by multiplying the velocity of your hand in feet per second times 1/200 - i.e. about 1/32nd of an inch at 1 ft/second.

Chris - I have actually touched the spinning saw blade twice to answer just this question. Fortunately, it turns out a hot dog is a pretty good standin for a finger - and cheap to boot!

Chris DeHut - The system monitors rotation of the blade during coast down and the system remains active until the blade stops. Therefore, you would have protection in the scenario you described where you shut the saw off with your leg and reached over the blade.

Terry - You can't use the bypass to get around changing to a dado cartridge. The system looks for proximity between the brake and the blade and will flash and error if they aren't close enough together. You can't use the bypass until you have the error cleared. The idea is that you don't want people to use the bypass to get around fixing some problem with the system.

Steven - The data simply doesn't support your argument that kickback is the leading cause of injury. In particular, the statistics show that about 90%+ of table saw injuries are lacerations or amputations. Now, in many of these cases, the precipitating event for contact with the blade may have been kickback, but it is the contact with the blade that is doing the vast majority of the harm. The system works just as effectively with a dado as it does with a regular blade.

The saw comes with a standard riving knife and a guard that is mounted to a spreader. The spreader and riving knife mount in the same socket, so the spreader goes up and down with the blade, just like the riving knife. Only difference is the spreader sticks above the blade to provide a place to mount the guard.

Jay - Although the prototype contractors saw pictured on our website doesn't show it, but the contractors saw will include the exact same guard riving knife system we use on the contractors saw. The change to implement this system on the contractors saw is one of the reasons why the contractors saw is a couple months behind the cabinet saw.

Chris - The blade is destroyed when the brake it triggered.

Mark - I don't believe the typical table saw accident happens all that fast. People regularly push three fingers right through the blade before they can flinch. Human reaction time is about 25-50 times slower than SawStop, so even if you are going fast, the accident will likely be far less significant with SawStop than without it.

Feel free to ask more questions and I'll try my best to answer them. I apologize for any questions I missed - it is a long thread. Feel free to remind me if I missed something you want an answer to and thanks for the interest.

Steve Gass, President
SawStop, LLC

[Chris Padilla]

Steve,

Thanks so much for participating in this discussion--I am sure your time committment is nearly unbearable with a new business venture. Also, Welcome to the Creek! We are a fine buncha folks here! :D

I look forward to the good discussion continuing. Are you ready for us to be firing at you from the hip??? ;) :p

[Chris DeHut]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for answering all of the questions. I am glad that the device is "in control" until the blade stops - that makes it much more useful.

Chris DeHut

[JayStPeter]

Steve,

I'm looking forward to seeing one. Are you (or at least your saws :cool: ) going to be on the show circuit this year?

Jay

[Jim Becker]

The data simply doesn't support your argument that kickback is the leading cause of injury. In particular, the statistics show that about 90%+ of table saw injuries are lacerations or amputations. Now, in many of these cases, the precipitating event for contact with the blade may have been kickback, but it is the contact with the blade that is doing the vast majority of the harm.
The only problem I see with this statistic is that it would obviously be skewed towards accidents that are "reported" and that is more likely when there is a cutting injury involved. For example, there are undoubtedly many folks who have experienced painful situations from kickback (myself included, but not recently, thank goodness) and did not go to the ER. Granted this may be trivializing things, but it's something that's important to acknowledge to keep the statistics honest. Your device does work to address the most severe injuries and that's good.

That said, thanks for contributing to the discussion. The questions and concerns are real and your willingness to address them directly is appreciated.

[Carole Valentine]

If the SawStop folk's were really interested in selling an inherintly safer product then they would design an American style cabinet saw with a proper riving knife with an attached, and detachable, guard.
My thoughts exactly!!!! If Delta or PM had offered a cabinet saw with a true riving knife and a decent, removable guard for $2500 I would have bought it in a heartbeat as opposed to the $1000 I spent on my lightly used Uni with 52" fence and accessories (not including the Uniguard I ordered today).

Personally I don't think I would buy the SS. The brake really only covers one scenario and most of the time that can be "covered" with a good guard.

[Robin Frierson]

Hi Steve, If a person wanted to order one of your saws today when would they actually be able to take delivery. BTW, I for one am glad your are offering the saw without a fence as I already got one. Everyone else wants to sell me a saw with a fence I dont need!! Thanks Robin Frierson

[Chris Padilla]

Robin,

Good point about the fence but it is a tad on the pricey side without the fence although it appears to be a well-made chunk of cast iron.

[Mark Singer]

Dennis,

Click on "Video Demo" to see it live in action. They show you how much damage you'll get on your finger...I guess it isn't bad and certainly better than loosing a finger.

I want to see the inventor actually spill some blood for his product and ram his own finger into the blade. That would be something! :eek:

I assume they have good data showing a hot dog is equivalent to a live human finger?
Chris,
You probably won't believe this, but I tried the hot dog test on my pppPowermatic, sorry I am stuttering with excitement, well the saw miraculously stopped! Don't ask me why, could be that the hot doges are Kosher and the saw was made in Tennesse, I'll be darned if I know. I have a freind in Tel Aviv that has an Israeli made saw.I am sending him some Oscar Meyer Franks (pork not Kosher) to see if he has the same result.
Now if that is true ...I may be totaly safe with the Powermatic considering the origin of the saw and my ethnicity....the problem is I am afraid to try it!
Can you check ith Mr. Glass for me?
Thanks!

[Chris Padilla]

IMBFEM!!! (It must be Friday, eh, Mark?) :D

Enjoy your weekend everyone...I'm on "vacation" for the next 3 weeks but I'll be on here getting my SMC fix!! :D

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
Does that mean you won't ask Mr. Glass? I think he likes you...and is not holding his finger against you!

YIFC =(yeah its Friday Chris)

[Steve Gass]

Jay - The only show we are planning to attend at the moment is the IWF2004 shown in Atlanta, August 26-29th. I know that only works for a few folks in that general neck of the woods, but we are a very small company with a limited budget right now. I would expect we will pick up additional shows over the course of the next year as our saws get into full production.

Jim - I agree that kickback causes a lot of injuries - I just think they are mostly minor relative to blade contact injuries. My worst tablesaw accident was getting hit in the chest by a 1x2x6" chunk of polycarbonate that was thrown back by the blade. It didn't weigh very much, but it hit be so hard it almost knocked the wind out of me. I was afraid to lift my shirt to look at the damage. Fortunately, just a large bruise. Of course, that's what the riving knife is there to prevent.

Carole - Our saw is equipped with a true riving knife and a guard attached to its own separate riving knife/spreader that is swapped out for the regular riving knife. The mounting mechanism is a pin-indexed cam lock that takes just seconds to clamp or release and positions the rivinging/guard in the exact same position every time so there isn't any adjustment when switching between the two. IMHO it is far and away the best riving knife/guard system out there. The only think that would improve it would be if the U.L. regulations allows a guard to be mounted directly to the spreader so you could hook a vacuum hose to it like on many of the European saws.

Robin - Due to our back log of pre-orders, if you preorder a saw now, you probably won't see it until November. Its difficult to say exactly since I'm not sure yet how fast we will be able to ramp up production.

Mark - It is a little known secret that all table saws will stop instantly for a hot dog - just not fingers.:)

[Mark Singer]

Steve,
What about other parts of the anatomy that resemble hot dogs? Again I am very afraid to try this....you can guess why. What do you suggest more in depth hot dog testing?

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Very good Mark! In depth hot dog testing??? Hahahahahahahahaha! :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Ian Barley]

Interesting thread and Steve clearly believes in his product, and probably rightly so because it is undoubtedly technically a move forward.

I still think that the risk that it is guarding against, blade contact with operator, is the one which is easiest to manage away.

As Steve concedes, while the majority of the recorded incidents of injury are a result of blade contact many of these will have been precipitated by a kickback event. Manage the kickback and you manage away that proportion of the contact incidents.

(Lets say we start with 100 injuries and this removes half of them - we're down to 50)

Of the remaining contact incidents how many take place where there is no blade guard present? Probably a sizeable proportion. Most of these would be avoided with the presence of a blade guard. Thats a chunk more off the statistics.

(again lets say half of whats left - we're now at 25)

So we are still left with some contact incidents and each one is a tragedy. So we use a push stick. Not sometimes, not when we remember, not when we feel like it. We use a push stick - all the time. I keep at least three different sorts of pushstick on the saw and use the one most appropriate to the job all the time.

(Lets go for half again to keep the maths easy - 13)

OK. So now we are down to the tiny proportion of contact incidents which will arise depite the presence of a blade guard and the use of a push stick. These are most likely incidents where, for whatever reason, the force which is being applied for the purpose of propelling the timber across the blade suddenly massively exceeds the resistance and momentum forces the pushstick off the workpiece propelling the operators hand at uncontrollable speed into the portion of the blade which is not covered by the blade. ("I slipped and before I could stop I cut three fingers off"). This can be managed by posture, edge maintenance and lubrication.

Posture - Think about the lines of force. Whenever I start a cut I project the force I am applying in my imagination and see where my body parts would end up if there was suddenly no resistance. I make sure that the line of travel that a suddenly released hand would take doesn't end up on the blade. Sounds fancy doesn't it. Try it a few times and it becomes second nature. Do it a few hundred times a day and you can't not do it.

Edge maintenance - A dull blade is many times more dangerous that a sharp one. When the blade gets dull you end up applying excessive force to overcome the resistance and excessive force is what will lead ypu to cut your thumb off. Find a good sharpening service and get your blades sharpened before they need it.

Lubrication - make sure that the blade is kept clean and lubricated. Do the same with the table top and any moving parts. Using a table saw (and most other tools) should not required great physical effort. When it does you are courting danger.

(Half seems a nice round number - 7)

The remaining incidents are likely to fall into the category of slips, trips and horseplay. Don't walk around while the blade is running and if you share your shop with others create an exclusion zone to keep them away during that time. Don't goof around in the shop.

(you might spot a theme - 4. I know that the maths and stats should be more complicated but thats something like a 96% reduction without anybody spending a dime)

Don't work tired. I make my living at this and often work 16 hour days to try and keep up with my orders and usually work 7 days a week in the season. I get tired but make sure that I organise my day so that I am using the high risk tools, including the TS when I am in the right condition. I can sand with matchsticks propping my eyelids but never use the TS when I am weary.

I stress again that I have absolutely nothing against this product and suspect that where I in the market for a saw and all other things were equal I would consider it as an option. I just think that it would be a fantastic shame if somebody in a years time looked at the bleeding stumps arrayed at the end of their hand and thought, "I wish I'd bought a sawstop" when the could be looking at the frayed end of a pushstick and saying , "I'm glad I used a pushstick"

None of these measures slow you down. None of them stop you doing what you need to do. They simply require a bit of thought and the acceptance that the risks really exist, apply to you and need to be dealt with.

[John Shuk]

I think that if this is truly an excellent quality saw with no corners cut and has these safety features built in people might consider it. We are all looking for the best tools and if this is a Porsche they might find a niche. Very innovative for sure.

[Jim Becker]

Again I am very afraid to try this....you can guess why.
Mark, you realize the SawStop feature only works if the hot dogs are more or less than 8 days old...on that 8th day, all bets are off...:o

[Mark Singer]

Jim,
I did hear that...is that a religous thing or does it have to do with the sodium nitrate preservative. I am thinking to try a Chinese sasauge on a Tiwanese saw. I still haven't heard from my friend in Tel Aviv with his Moshe 2000 tablesaw. I am still thinking to try the Oscar Meyers (pork not Kosher) . The amazing thing is how the Hebrew Nationals stopped my Powermatic on a dime!( I haven't tried Nathin"s yet). Don't ask me why? What effect would a bun and sourkraut have with a little mustard? That one might not make it to the saw ( I would eat it first!)
Idea an all star special with Norm the "New Yankee" workshop and "Emerle Live"
Emerle would be preparing culinary quality dogs (world class!) and Norm would be running them through saws of different origins....60 Minutes could be monitoring the results(Andy Roney is a woodworker)....it would be an unusal show and could appeal to both woodworkers and aspiring chefs....

[Jim Becker]

I did hear that...is that a religous thing or....You'll have to ask your friendly, neighborhood Mohel...

(And folks...this is all in light-hearted jest and in no way meant to be construed as denegrating to the SawStop product)

[Mark Singer]

You'll have to ask your friendly, neighborhood Mohel...

(And folks...this is all in light-hearted jest and in no way meant to be construed as denegrating to the SawStop product)Jim,
Do you think circumsisions can be performed on saws with the SawStop?The small cut looks to be about the correct depth! If so we could do it on Saturday Night Live....a sequel to the Buick LeSabre segment of years ago...Puerfect!

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Interesting thread and Steve clearly believes in his product, and probably rightly so because it is undoubtedly technically a move forward.

I still think that the risk that it is guarding against, blade contact with operator, is the one which is easiest to manage away.

As Steve concedes, while the majority of the recorded incidents of injury are a result of blade contact many of these will have been precipitated by a kickback event. Manage the kickback and you manage away that proportion of the contact incidents.

(Lets say we start with 100 injuries and this removes half of them - we're down to 50)

Of the remaining contact incidents how many take place where there is no blade guard present? Probably a sizeable proportion. Most of these would be avoided with the presence of a blade guard. Thats a chunk more off the statistics.

(again lets say half of whats left - we're now at 25)

So we are still left with some contact incidents and each one is a tragedy. So we use a push stick. Not sometimes, not when we remember, not when we feel like it. We use a push stick - all the time. I keep at least three different sorts of pushstick on the saw and use the one most appropriate to the job all the time.

(Lets go for half again to keep the maths easy - 13)

OK. So now we are down to the tiny proportion of contact incidents which will arise depite the presence of a blade guard and the use of a push stick. These are most likely incidents where, for whatever reason, the force which is being applied for the purpose of propelling the timber across the blade suddenly massively exceeds the resistance and momentum forces the pushstick off the workpiece propelling the operators hand at uncontrollable speed into the portion of the blade which is not covered by the blade. ("I slipped and before I could stop I cut three fingers off"). This can be managed by posture, edge maintenance and lubrication.

Posture - Think about the lines of force. Whenever I start a cut I project the force I am applying in my imagination and see where my body parts would end up if there was suddenly no resistance. I make sure that the line of travel that a suddenly released hand would take doesn't end up on the blade. Sounds fancy doesn't it. Try it a few times and it becomes second nature. Do it a few hundred times a day and you can't not do it.

Edge maintenance - A dull blade is many times more dangerous that a sharp one. When the blade gets dull you end up applying excessive force to overcome the resistance and excessive force is what will lead ypu to cut your thumb off. Find a good sharpening service and get your blades sharpened before they need it.

Lubrication - make sure that the blade is kept clean and lubricated. Do the same with the table top and any moving parts. Using a table saw (and most other tools) should not required great physical effort. When it does you are courting danger.

(Half seems a nice round number - 7)

The remaining incidents are likely to fall into the category of slips, trips and horseplay. Don't walk around while the blade is running and if you share your shop with others create an exclusion zone to keep them away during that time. Don't goof around in the shop.

(you might spot a theme - 4. I know that the maths and stats should be more complicated but thats something like a 96% reduction without anybody spending a dime)

Don't work tired. I make my living at this and often work 16 hour days to try and keep up with my orders and usually work 7 days a week in the season. I get tired but make sure that I organise my day so that I am using the high risk tools, including the TS when I am in the right condition. I can sand with matchsticks propping my eyelids but never use the TS when I am weary.

I stress again that I have absolutely nothing against this product and suspect that where I in the market for a saw and all other things were equal I would consider it as an option. I just think that it would be a fantastic shame if somebody in a years time looked at the bleeding stumps arrayed at the end of their hand and thought, "I wish I'd bought a sawstop" when the could be looking at the frayed end of a pushstick and saying , "I'm glad I used a pushstick"

None of these measures slow you down. None of them stop you doing what you need to do. They simply require a bit of thought and the acceptance that the risks really exist, apply to you and need to be dealt with.


Ian, Thanks for your "bit of ramble" . It was an excellent write up of how you should approach a table saw with the right mental processes working. With your methods I think table saw accidents would be greatly reduced. Thanks for all your great insights in reducing table saw dangers. Alan in Md.

[Mark Singer]

We have had some fun with this one! On a serious note, the technology seems amazing! I think this could certainly be like seat belts in our cars, fist it was Rambler and soon all the cars had them. If you had a serious accident....you would wished you had the SawStop.
For all of us with other models...be as safe and careful as you can. Ian brings many thoughtful suggestions worth reading!

[Steve Gass]

Mark, as for other anatomy, it would obviously depend on the size....

More seriously, Ian, you are correct that all of the things you describe have the potential to improve table saw safety and are good things to strive for. However, you could say the same thing about any type of accident - they are virtually all the result of human error. Certainly if we could make humans perfect, we could eliminate almost all accidents. Unfortunately, that is not one of the available options, so we are left with doing what we can to improve humans (probably not much, humans being like they are :) ) and then making the environment as forgiving of human mistakes as possible. That is what SawStop is for - when you make a mistake.

I think anyone who is so confident in their perfection that they don't worry about making a mistake using their tablesaw is living in a delusion. Now we're getting back to the problems with human nature - it is a common delusion that it "won't happen to me." It can happen to anyone, anytime and it can have lifelong consequences in the blink of an eye. I don't think I've ever spoken with a victim of a tablesaw accident who thought it would happen to them before before it happened.

SawStop isn't the perfect solution - just one heck of a lot better than nothing in the vast, vast majority of cases.

[Ken Salisbury]

http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/redflag.jpg


We have had some fun with this one!
I agree - but folks -- we are wandering off course again lets try to stay with the initial intent of the thread:

I saw the ad or article (forget which) in the latest issue of FWW. How many folks do you think will lay out the 2200 (+ extra for goodies) for a "PM66 equivalent" for this safety factor?

There was a long thread here about Saw Stop a while ago.

Thoughts?

[Mark Singer]

Ken,
I think people would if the saw is that good. Tyler just bought a PM66 and did not nind paying an extra $175 fot 2 extra HP that he wasn't sure he needed. All the cars have air bags and we are paying for that...I am glad they are there and I don't drive more recklessly because they are there. I think if it is a fine quality saw a few extra $ for that kind of safety is well worth it. As I said , if you had a serious accident, you would wish your saw had it.
The only downside is if you want to use your tablesaw for cutting hot dogs....it can be a problem..:D

[Daniel Yourdon]

Ken,
The only downside is if you want to use your tablesaw for cutting hot dogs....it can be a problem..:D

Naw you would just have to push it through with a piece of wood
;)

[Earl Kelly]

Steve, I applaud you for coming here defending and explaining your product. One question I have is. This has been in developement for several yrs. correct? I have never seen any data concerning failure rates. Surely this has been tested thousands of times.

I still don't understand how this could not be retrofitted to other saws. Basically all saw mechanisms are similar in construction. As a retrofit I feel people would pay up to $400-500 for this to fit existing saws.

Ian, I believe you made some very good points. Especially about using sharp blades. A sharp blade will make the saw and user work so much easier and safer.

[Ian Barley]

I think anyone who is so confident in their perfection that they don't worry about making a mistake using their tablesaw is living in a delusion.

Steve

I agree with you. That is why I am so certain of my own fallibility that I think about every cut I make (100s a day) before I make it. A serious accident would cost me my livelihood and I am not willing to lose it.

The point that I was trying to make, and probaly failed, was that Sawstop is a great technology just like the air bags and anti-lock brakes on my car are great technology. But they dont avoid the need for me to learn how to drive or stop at red traffic lights. They don't enable me to drive safely when I am dog tired or concentrating on the actions of a back seat passenger.

I firmly believe that the best safety feature that a saw manufacturer could install is a good instruction manual and some clear guidance of how to use the tool safely. All the time that people get most of this information from TV programs there is little chance of improving accident rates.

The other thing to bear in nimd is that even if the insatllation of Sawstop technology was made mandatory on new saws tomorrow it would probably take 20-30 years for the majority of the tools in use to have it. That means there is still plenty of time left in which the important safety message needs to be pushed home.

Out of interest Steve, do you supply a push stick with the saw? The one I have (Elektra Beckum - Don't think you would see it over there) came with a pushstick that bore the legend "Ich bin ersatzbar - dein hande nicht" which shows where the saw is made - Germany. It translates as "I am replaceable - your hand isn't". Every time I switch the saw on that line goes through my head and I puck up a push stick. Perfect? - nowhere close - Careful? - definitely.

[Pat Salter]

I lost my left thumb to the first knuckle back in '81. My boss said, "naw, we don't need that blade guard on there, it's too much trouble."
Does this make me want to buy one of these new puppys? I don't think so. I just want to learn to use my old one properly. I keep the blade guard on mine (or at least the splitter) unless I'm doing dados.
I will probably end up using one of these in the future since I work for the govt. and they usually get sold these because they are "safer" then the rest.
FWW is supposed to get one of these and then do a complete test. I'm looking forward to that article.

Ian, Very Good, I'm thinking of printing that up and showing the guys at work (they're prisoners, don't have access to the sawmill :D )

[Chris Padilla]

Pat,

Someone just posted a TS accident...took 6 stitches for a 1/2" cut. It is interesting that you specifically state that you still wouldn't be interested in this technology. Most who've had digits removed would, in hindsight, wish they woulda had such a device.

I do think, for the cost, that these table saws may end up in gov't buildings or companies...it might give their insurance premiums a break...maybe.

Steve, do you have a feel for the type of people pre-ordering your TS? Are they mostly hobbiests or mostly companies or ??? Just curious...ignore my question if you consider that a bit sensitive to post.

[Michael Ballent]

One thing to remember about the auto industry is that the manufacturer is not allowed to patent a new safety device. This is patented so no one will be able to manufacture it without paying royalties to SS. In the auto industry they get ahead with new safety devices by jumping ahead of the competition and getting a 1 to 3 year head start, but nothing stops Toyota from including something that was invented by Volvo except the additional cost. Someone in the auto industry can answer this with more certainty.

[Chris Padilla]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread in case any new guys hadn't seen it or someone here actually purchased one of these saws and can comment on it.

:)

[Rich Konopka]

I had checked thier website a couple of weeks ago and they were still taking orders but no saws have been reviewed by any of the WW rags. FWW mentioned that they would when the become GA.

[Christopher Pine]

:mad: I know never say never but after how this company and the inventor went about trying to legislate this product I will never buy one! At least not from them! If it has any success at all there will be clones of this device out the wazooo.
Thats enough as if I go farther I will be edited and the discussion will deviate to the previous beaten to death horse. :)
Chris

[Christopher Pine]

During the entire Saw Stop debacle I have been very vocal in opposing their initial marketing strategy, which was to impose this thing on us by government fiat. I even wrote the owner/inventor of the thing to express my opinion on the matter.

However, I applaud them for taking it to the marketplace. Personally I do not see the value. Yes, there is a value there, but is it a cost effective value? I do not think so, and so I would not buy one. However, if they get enough people to think so and buy one, then they have succeeded in the free market, which is the way it should be.

Bill

Well said Bill! I concur!
Chris Pine

[Dave Wright #2]

I spent quite a while looking very closely at the SawStop cabinet saw during IWF 2004 in Atlanta. Clearly they understand that the saw must be the "best saw in its class" regardless of the blade brake. They have included a good number of improvements to the now decades-old competing cabinet saw designs.

One has been delivered to Kelly Mehler. Look for a review in the upcoming FWW issue of the next.

Mine is supposed to be in the next shipment. I will certainly post here if I am asked for payment and if it arrives and is put into service.

SawStop will honor pricing listed at the time a preorder is placed. The original price was $2199 + $200 for the 36" fence (or $300 for the 52"). Current pricing is $2499 + $289 due to increases from the manufacturer. I suppose that's consist with the runup we've seen in steel prices lately. At 635 pounds ("wet") for the 36" version there's a fair amount of steel involved.

Anyone else heard anything?

[Chris Padilla]

Dave,

Glad you joined up and welcome to SMC! I am anxious to hear thoughts about this TS...it does surely look quite beefy. What TS do you currently run right now?

[JayStPeter]

:mad: I know never say never but after how this company and the inventor went about trying to legislate this product I will never buy one! At least not from them! If it has any success at all there will be clones of this device out the wazooo.
Thats enough as if I go farther I will be edited and the discussion will deviate to the previous beaten to death horse. :)
Chris

Here (http://www.tiptonium.com/graphics/deadhorsebeating.htm) ya go

Jay

[Frank Pellow]

Here (http://www.tiptonium.com/graphics/deadhorsebeating.htm) ya go

Jay

Hey Jay, I like it! :D

[Chris Padilla]

LOL...the expression "beating a dead horse" always reminds me of a Far-Side panel simply titled, "Horse Remedies". Pretty much anything the horse had from a runny nose to a broken leg, the remedy was simply "Shoot!" hahaha

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have followed the evolution of this machine as well as the escalation in list price. I can tell you that I will never buy one. I won't go into why although some of you who remember the first thread will know right away.

Has someone actually taken delivery yet? I was skeptical that it would ever hit the market.

[Bill Erskine]

I for one am glad to see this product will indeed make it to the marketplace. The innovator in me likes it when a good idea becomes reality. Will I buy one? Not sure yet, but I definitely plan to keep up with developments. Like many of you, I maintain a mental list of "Tools I'd like to have". This will definitely be added to mine, just not sure where in list it will end up.

For me, I try to be careful and do things the right way whenever I'm using tools. But I am an amateur, so I'm well aware that I may one day make a mistake. I hope that it's not too serious.

Commenting on one observation that was made on this thread. Would using a SawStop make you complacent, perhaps, but I bet the nick of a finger along with the (what should be a) tremendous BANG of the blade stopping in a few milliseconds would remove any complacency. And I'd be most willing to send $70-80 to SawStop for a new brake cartridge instead of spending it at the emergency room.

[Michael Ballent]

Mine is supposed to be in the next shipment. I will certainly post here if I am asked for payment and if it arrives and is put into service.

Wow you are the first person I have heard of that has one on order... Glad to see that you are on the board and cannot wait to see what your thoughts are once you get the saw.

[Keith Christopher]

I think this thing is wonderful, I would worry that it would make people careless a little bit. Anything to make the tools we work with safer and still fully functional it ok in my book.

[Mark Singer]

As soon as someone takes delivery, I will bring over some hotdogs and we can have a BBQ and test....2 for 1 if you will

[Dave Wright #2]

Will do, Mark. Don't forget to bring $120 to cover the blown brake cartridge and one of my combo blades.

On earlier posts...
I'll reply to a couple of items that came up after I posted, but first a disclaimer. I feel pretty positive about the SawStop cabinet saw. Wouldn't have one on order if I didn't. I am not, however, a shill. I'm just an evening and weekend woodworker who happens to believe in the blade brake and could use a good cabinet saw to replace his well-used Delta Contractors Saw.

Yes, I just started posting at Sawmillcreek, but anyone who doubts my long term posting motivation is welcome to check the hundreds of posts I logged at Badger Pond and more recently at Woodcentral. Look for "Dave Wright, Paris Mountain SC". This looks like a nice forum to visit too. Think I'll hang around,

Discussions regarding the CPSC Petition are for another thread, and the topic has indeed been beaten to death. Lots of people despise SawStop for filing the petition; 350 unaffiliated people filed supporting statements; Mexican standoff. It may be worth noting that I came across a Delta rep spouting untruths about the whole situation. He told me that SawStop had sued Delta and he felt sorry for all the people who had paid for saws that never came. He backed off quickly when I corrected him on both counts. No one has been sued, and no one has sent money for a saw that wasn't crated and ready to go into the Yellow Freight truck for delivery to their shop.

Will the blade brake make people careless and cavalier? Probably not after they blow a $60 brake, ruin a $40 - $100+ blade, and lose woodworking time getting the saw back in action. With my luck first blade contact would be when cutting dados, which would cost me a good bit more money.

I looked closely at the SawStop, Delta, and Powermatic cabinet saws at IWF 2004. All were tweaked and greased for best impression, so I think it was a level playing field. I didn't fire up any of them, but the SawStop was clearly the smoothest operating, most massive, and had the best attention to manufacturing detail. I have gone into some depth about the design details elsewhere, so I won't double post here. A Reader's Digest version might be OK though. Below are some of the innovations. They all appear to have been carefully designed and solidly manufactured. Serious improvements, not marketing frills.

-- Toespace formed into the cabinet base for better foot clearance

-- Deeper cast iron top (30" vs. 27")

-- Tool-free belt replacement

-- Internal blade shroud and flex ducting improves dust capture.

-- True European riving knife reduces kickback risk in all normal cutting situations.

-- The blade guard can be left in place during rips as narrow as 5/8". Good view of the blade is provided.

-- Blade guard and riving knife install tool-free and very quickly; adjustable but indexed for guaranteed return to desired position.

-- 36" small version of the fence is a great improvement over the 30" offered by other manufacturers.

-- Fence has separate scale and magnified cursor for rips to the left of the blade (up to 12") as well as the right.

-- Heavier tubing than my Bies; removable/replaceable fence faces.

-- Keyed starter for improved saw security and safety in shops that are visited by children (like mine).

-- Large paddle for easy shutoff by hand or hip.

Honestly, I would consider buying the saw even if it didn't have the blade brake. I don't know if SawStop will be around for replacement parts in 20 years, but decided to roll the dice. Here's a possibly interesting crystal ball scenario: SawStop eventually gets the saws out. They do reasonable well in the market. Private woodworkers account for some of the sales, but the vast majority are to school shops and industries that get insurance breaks. The saw price climbs to $3,000 in the first year of legitimate high volume sales, but eventually drops to about $2,000 as the Taiwanese manufacturer ramps up. UL tests for the brake are established. ISO 9001 certification is obtained. SawStop survives several lawsuits filed by zealous ambulance chasing lawyers. The controvertial CPSC Petition turns into an asset - helping convince juries that SawStop made every possible attempt to protect the sawing public despite risk of consumer backlash. One day, after hushed and protracted negotiations, the WMH Tool Group acquires SawStop and markets the cabinet saw as a successor to the venerable but aging PM66.

Possible?

Regards,

Dave

[Mark J Bachler]

How you ever going to be able to identify a person as a cabinetmaker if they all have all their fingers?

[Chris Padilla]

-- Toespace formed into the cabinet base for better foot clearance

-- Deeper cast iron top (30" vs. 27")

-- Tool-free belt replacement

-- Internal blade shroud and flex ducting improves dust capture.

-- True European riving knife reduces kickback risk in all normal cutting situations.

-- The blade guard can be left in place during rips as narrow as 5/8". Good view of the blade is provided.

-- Blade guard and riving knife install tool-free and very quickly; adjustable but indexed for guaranteed return to desired position.

-- 36" small version of the fence is a great improvement over the 30" offered by other manufacturers.

-- Fence has separate scale and magnified cursor for rips to the left of the blade (up to 12") as well as the right.

-- Heavier tubing than my Bies; removable/replaceable fence faces.

-- Keyed starter for improved saw security and safety in shops that are visited by children (like mine).

-- Large paddle for easy shutoff by hand or hip.

Honestly, I would consider buying the saw even if it didn't have the blade brake.
Hey Dave,

Nice write-up. I like the looks and innovations that Saw-Stop is bringing to the market. This is a capitalistic society...that is how it works. As you said, even without the finger-saving technology, this is leaps and bounds above what we pros/hobbyists have available right now in a 10" TS.

They upset many people initially and when that avenue to profitability dried up, they kept forging ahead...kudos to them.

My one beef, for now until the aftermarket catches up, if it ever does, is that the deeper top will not take many aftermarket fences like my beloved Incra fence without modification. Still, I like the deeper top...can't seem to have a big enough table top on a TS as far as I am concerned.

I look forward to reviews...especially a more impartial one by any SMC member. Magazines are good but must always be taken with a grain of salt....

Finally, that saw sure LOOKS good, too! :D

[Carole Valentine]

I would rather have the option of buying any saw with a true riving knife. I fear kickback more than ony other type of incident and kickback can draw your hand into the blade. I use a guard and a splitter, but I would feel much safer if I had a riving knife that always stayed just behind the blade. I am always holding my breath 'til the kerf passes the splitter! I think the major manufacturers could run circles around Saw Stop if they only offered this option.

[Jim Becker]

I would rather have the option of buying any saw with a true riving knife.
Carole, you do have that option available to you...but you'll need to invest in something "Euro". (Felder, Mini Max, etc.) Even the Festool PlungeSaw has a riving knife. These tools were designed from the ground up to support them and they do it with purpose. The "US" style saws would require major redesign to accomodate one as the clearances behind the blade on virtually all of them is, um...nada. No place to hook it to the arbor assembly nor enough space to make it large enough.

[Dan Stuewe]

Just a thought that crossed my mind when Chris wrote this...




My one beef, for now until the aftermarket catches up, if it ever does, is that the deeper top will not take many aftermarket fences like my beloved Incra fence without modification. Still, I like the deeper top...can't seem to have a big enough table top on a TS as far as I am concerned.


I have read that some prefer to have the trailing edge of the fence at the trailing edge of the blade (or maybe even closer to the leading edge of the blade) to free the board from moving into the blade when stresses are released. This setup could make the fence length to table length moot (of course a riving knife/splitter helps combat the same problem)

[Dino Makropoulos]

Hey Dave,

Nice write-up. I like the looks and innovations that Saw-Stop is bringing to the market. This is a capitalistic society...that is how it works. As you said, even without the finger-saving technology, this is leaps and bounds above what we pros/hobbyists have available right now in a 10" TS.

They upset many people initially and when that avenue to profitability dried up, they kept forging ahead...kudos to them.

My one beef, for now until the aftermarket catches up, if it ever does, is that the deeper top will not take many aftermarket fences like my beloved Incra fence without modification. Still, I like the deeper top...can't seem to have a big enough table top on a TS as far as I am concerned.

I look forward to reviews...especially a more impartial one by any SMC member. Magazines are good but must always be taken with a grain of salt....

Finally, that saw sure LOOKS good, too! :D
Hi Chris.
I have the luck to see the Saw Stop in IWF. Atlanta.
To tell you the true if I was out to the market for a Tablesaw I will buy one without a second thought.
Never mind the (saw stop) feature that I like to see it in all the technical schools and not only, this tool is one of the best table saws in the market today. (or soon to be)
And I will think of the (saw stop) as a Smart Bonus.

Few months ago in Atlantic city Nj at a trade show, I saw a teenager with One finger left on his right hand.and half of his palm ..lost to a table saw.
You know what come in my mind when I saw the Kid?
WHY NOT THE SAW-STOP?
But by reading this thread now I know why.
YCF Dino

[Frank Pellow]

I would rather have the option of buying any saw with a true riving knife. I fear kickback more than ony other type of incident and kickback can draw your hand into the blade. I use a guard and a splitter, but I would feel much safer if I had a riving knife that always stayed just behind the blade. I am always holding my breath 'til the kerf passes the splitter! I think the major manufacturers could run circles around Saw Stop if they only offered this option.

I am with you Carol. I want a table saw with a good riving knife. The rest of the stuff on the SawStop (if they ever really deliver any) is a bonus.

[Carole Valentine]

Jim,
I looked into the Euro saws, just couldn't afford one. I realize that a redesign (including redesign of the manufacturing equipment) would be necessary for US saws to sport a riving knife, but what I don't understand is tool manufacturers reluctance to do so. Treading water might keep you from drowning for the moment, but it sure doesn't allow you to make much progress. Surely they could do a redesign and still sell for less than the Euro saws or the Saw Stop? BUT....would that mean that we could no longer get parts for our existing saws? Would we no longer be able to use dado blades, moulding heads, etc? I am sure there are lots of ramifications that I have not thought about.

[Ian Barley]

I have read that some prefer to have the trailing edge of the fence at the trailing edge of the blade (or maybe even closer to the leading edge of the blade) to free the board from moving into the blade when stresses are released. This setup could make the fence length to table length moot (of course a riving knife/splitter helps combat the same problem)
Dan

This is exactly how the fence is/was built on a "traditional" British sawbench. The fence extended obly as far as the centre of the blade meaning that there was nothing to trap the workpiece on the upsweep of the blade.

Most saws sold over here now have a full length fence which enables a lighter construction because the fixing can be made at both ends. I have a wooden cheek fitted to the face of my fence which stops at the blade centre. This way I get the best of both worlds.



I fear kickback more than ony other type of incident and kickback can draw your hand into the blade.
Carole

I agree with you. As I have said before, the blade will lie there are wait for you to touch it, kickback will chase you round the room. I suspect that the manufacturers will not add a riving knife until the market forces them to. Maybe SawStop will be the catalyst to that as it appears to be a saw designed with safety as a reasonable priority.



Few months ago in Atlantic city Nj at a trade show, I saw a teenager with One finger left on his right hand.and half of his palm ..lost to a table saw.
You know what come in my mind when I saw the Kid?
WHY NOT THE SAW-STOP?

I have to say what would come to my mind is "Why not a push stick"

[Dino Makropoulos]

I have to say what would come to my mind is "Why not a push stick"
The kid was not even cutting wood Ian.
He was moving something it top of the saw.

The push stick some times can be a hazard too.
And the problem is that you need to stop or slow your movement and get the push stick in each and every cut. (By the way the GRRRRiper is a Smart tool).
Any way... looking for a smarter, safer and better table saw the Saw-Stop is all that.
And if not for us the brave and smart ones...then for the schools and many other places.

YCF Dino

[Dave Wright #2]

Carole,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

You could always get a Ryobi BT3100. A little hacksawing and file cleanup can easily turn the riving knife/blade guard assembly into a true riving knife. OK…it would be a light, low power, imprecise, and high maintenance saw…but one with a true riving knife.<o:p> </o:p>

The issue isn’t actually lack of space behind the blade. A true riving knife requires that the arbor assembly travel straight up and down for the depth of cut adjustment. The standard North American cabinet saw (Unisaw, PM66, General 350, etc.) pivots the arbor assembly around a horizontal shaft to change depth. That motion prevents a riving knife from staying level with the top of the blade. The SawStop cabinet saw arbor assembly travels vertically along a massive linear bearing. A second smaller linear bearing at the other end of the saw prevents the assembly from rotating around the main bearing and throwing the blade out of parallel with the miter slots.<o:p> </o:p>

It’s all about money. Properly done, the vertical arbor carriage is a good bit more expensive than the standard design. One early pricing projection in FWW put the saw at $4000. At $2200 the SawStop cabinet saw was a steal. It’s still probably a good value at $2500. Achieving the concept with light and loose fitting components gives you the BT3100. The entire saw industry has gotten caught up in a price war. Their studies indicate that most woodworkers won’t pay more for safety features. I think the actual situation is that woodworkers won’t pay more for clumsy and annoying safety features but will pay more for convenient and effective safety features. The saw manufacturers currently pay $0.00 to cover injuries caused by their products, so…no incentive there.<o:p> </o:p>

The only thing I know to do is vote with my wallet. Shortly before the SawStop preorder list was started I sent letters to all of the major saw manufacturers. I told them that I was in the market for a new cabinet saw, and that it had to have a blade brake. I asked them if they could provide me with that saw. No meaningful response, so I placed the preorder with SawStop.<o:p> </o:p>

Oh yea – dados. The smaller blade diameter will require removal of the riving knife. Dados aren’t through cuts though. Kickback isn’t nearly as much of a risk.<o:p> </o:p>

Regards,<o:p> </o:p>

Dave

[Ian Barley]

The kid was not even cutting wood Ian.
He was moving something it top of the saw.

With a spinning blade, and presumably no blade guard!


The push stick some times can be a hazard too.
I would be interested to have you outline one specific instance in which a push stick creates a hazard?


And the problem is that you need to stop or slow your movement and get the push stick in each and every cut.
And stopping at red traffic lights slows down my journey to work but I have kinda worked out that for safety's sake its worth doing.


Any way... looking for a smarter, safer and better table saw the Saw-Stop is all that.
No question. I am not against it. I am going to repeat that. I AM NOT AGAINST IT. I simply seek to make the point that there are ways of improving our safety when using a table saw that cost approximately zero. That is a far better ROI for all those of us who have no need to replace our TS in the near future.


And if not for us the brave and smart ones...then for the schools and many other places.
Brave is actually half the problem. If half the people using TS were less brave and more careful they would stay safe for the 20-30 years that it will probably take for technologies like SawStop to be in the majority.

I also have a fear that kids taking a shop class with a sawstop equipped saw may experienced a reduced safety training on the equipment that will equip them even less well for the use of a TS in the real world. They are going to be pretty unlikely to be using a sawstop outside of school.

[Ted Harris]

I would not hesitate to buy the Sawstop technology for my saws when it becomes available for my Grizzly 1023z and my Powermatic 66. I would really like to have it on my bandsaw & chopsaw as well Might even buy one of theirs.

[Chris Padilla]

I also have a fear that kids taking a shop class with a sawstop equipped saw may experienced a reduced safety training on the equipment that will equip them even less well for the use of a TS in the real world. They are going to be pretty unlikely to be using a sawstop outside of school.
It is hard for me to fathom ever becoming complacent around a deadly spinning blade.

As a pro who uses one day in and day out, perhaps, but has a hobbyist, I can assure you that I have a healthy fear of them. Shoot, I cut myself enough on a blade when it isn't even spinning!! :o

If it meant a lower price, I might consider a Saw Stop TS (I guess they would have to change the name, eh?) without the fancy blade-stopping technology--it is definately an impressive piece machinery from what I can tell.

[Ian Barley]

It is hard for me to fathom ever becoming complacent around a deadly spinning blade.

As a pro who uses one day in and day out, perhaps.

But that is the point. Imagine as a child you had known that it wasn't a "deadly spinning blade" because you had seen what happened when your friend Jimmy touched it and the bang and the noise and all had been kinda fun. And every table saw that you had ever been around had the same reassuring quality of inate benignness.

Then you go into your old man's friends workshop and the saw is there and spinning but you don't mind that 'cos if you accidentally touch it nothings gonna happen - right? You fill in the blanks.


And as a pro I work kinda hard at not being complacent. I am aware that I probably spend as much time on my TS in a week as a hobbyist does in a year. That gives me at least 50 times as many opprotunities to get it wrong.

Again. I know I sound like I'm against it but I'm not. It just isn't a panacea and won't become one for a very, very long time. If ever.

[Jim Martin]

I didn't fire up any of them, but the SawStop was clearly the smoothest operating,
Dave

Does anyone else think that by reading the above statement that Dave is engaging in a bit of hyperbole?

[Christopher Pine]

Maybe I am wrong but no one seems to have an issue with the blade being destroyed when the brake is applied. Granted I allready see the responses "better the blade than yourself".. true but many think this is just somthing you can play with then reset and away you go.. My understanding is this is not the case and your $100+ woodworker 2 is history. Kindof an expensive hot dog at that point!
Chris




But that is the point. Imagine as a child you had known that it wasn't a "deadly spinning blade" because you had seen what happened when your friend Jimmy touched it and the bang and the noise and all had been kinda fun. And every table saw that you had ever been around had the same reassuring quality of inate benignness.

Then you go into your old man's friends workshop and the saw is there and spinning but you don't mind that 'cos if you accidentally touch it nothings gonna happen - right? You fill in the blanks.


And as a pro I work kinda hard at not being complacent. I am aware that I probably spend as much time on my TS in a week as a hobbyist does in a year. That gives me at least 50 times as many opprotunities to get it wrong.

Again. I know I sound like I'm against it but I'm not. It just isn't a panacea and won't become one for a very, very long time. If ever.

[Chris Padilla]

How much is a finger worth, Chris?

[Dino Makropoulos]

A.With a spinning blade, and presumably no blade guard!



B..I would be interested to have you outline one specific instance in which a push stick creates a hazard?


C.And stopping at red traffic lights slows down my journey to work but I have kinda worked out that for safety's sake its worth doing.


D. No question. I am not against it. I am going to repeat that. I AM NOT AGAINST IT. I simply seek to make the point that there are ways of improving our safety when using a table saw that cost approximately zero. That is a far better ROI for all those of us who have no need to replace our TS in the near future.


E. Brave is actually half the problem. If half the people using TS were less brave and more careful they would stay safe for the 20-30 years that it will probably take for technologies like SawStop to be in the majority.

F.I also have a fear that kids taking a shop class with a sawstop equipped saw may experienced a reduced safety training on the equipment that will equip them even less well for the use of a TS in the real world. They are going to be pretty unlikely to be using a sawstop outside of school.
A. Yes. No guard. You see.. daddy was one of the brave ones.
B.If the blade grabs the push stick then the push stick becomes a pull stick
Give me some time and I will look into the stats.
C. Yes Ian. I stop at the Red lights too. But cutting and driving is two different animals. If you saw a runaway truck coming at you while you're waiting for the green lite ...you will get a ticket.
Stoping the panel or the wood to grab the push stick is like ...not getting a ticket but..you better look for another insurance company..If you're lucky.
D.Can I make a jock here? ....
E. ..and here.
F. Ok. No more jocks. After all this is the F-line.
I don't think so. You saw the Saw-Stop video. If someone activates the brake system once, Then he knows not to do that again. I think we can put a positive spin to this FORGIVING and SMART technology to our schools.
Ian. I put some ABCDE&F in order for me to make sure I was answering to the right Letter.
YCF Dino

[Dino Makropoulos]

here is one.
From: Jay Windley (webmaster@clavius.org)
Subject: Re: WW accidents. How often has ring finger been hurt


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Date: 2004-10-11 13:13:07 PST


Every time I go into my shop I take a second to consider that most of the
machines in that room are trying to kill me. Even though I'm just an
amateur, I've tried to condition myself to the basic rules such as turning
off and disarming equipment and letting it come to a stop before reaching
near the moving parts. (Those little pull-out arming pins are a pain the
neck and easily lost, but I very nearly turned on my band saw accidentally
with my knuckles pressed up against the band.)

When I was eight or so I watched my dad sacrifice his finger and thumb tips
in a fine red mist to a very sturdy jointer while building our house. (And
he was using a pusher stick just as he'd been taught.) Maybe everyone needs
to be indoctrinated into the reality of power tools at such an early age.
But whenever I'm tempted to be cavalier, I try to think of how stupid I'm
going to look sitting in the emergency room with a bloody towel around my
hand.

Remember, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

--Jay

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Yanno...I'll bet you can find a record of accidents happening in just about any line of work or hobby...even those using a safety device. It all boils down to one thing...NOT PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION. Removing the responsibility is the wrong thing to do IMHO.

[Christopher Pine]

How much is a finger worth, Chris?

Well that would all depend who's finger it is! :)
MIne are worth more than most folks.

Well when the kids are playing and they see that the demonstration is done with a hot dog and the shop teacher is not looking!!!!!!! What is a premium sawblade worth, Chris? I did not say that a finger was less important than a sawblade! I am irritated that I seem to even have to clarify this. IF you read the post I quoted when I wrote the previous reply it seems like the gentleman and most others imply that this device is just a nice little braking device and will save you from injury and then you simply hit a reset button and on we go. It is not!
Chris
Sorry I have no pictures for this post

[Dino Makropoulos]

Yanno...I'll bet you can find a record of accidents happening in just about any line of work or hobby...even those using a safety device. It all boils down to one thing...NOT PAYING ENOUGH ATTENTION. Removing the responsibility is the wrong thing to do IMHO.
Hi kelly.

Just remember that not all people have the same level of attention.
And even if we do. We don't all have the same balance/reaction/charisma/skil/experiance /strength/ body structure.Plus,plus plus. And the Idea is how we can make woodworking safer to all.

Any one can go to any store and buy a table saw/radial arm saw /jointer/etc. That's what I did 20 plus years ago and bought a radial arm saw. To make a long story short, I almost kill my son with this thing.
I was using the saw for few years and I ALWAYS PAY ENOUGH ATTENTION
Do you have any idea how many accidents we have in US every day?

No one suggest that we should remove the responsibility from the users.
But what you saying is to remove the responsibility from the power tool manufactures.
Do you know that our government steps in some times and forces the manufactures to recall or improve the power tools?
And yes. They even recall my stupid radial arm saw.
IMHO It comes down to better education and smarter tools.
Then, anyone can enjoy woodworking and no just few that have nothing better to do but to make jocks about this unique and robust invention

[Kelly C. Hanna]

You have a great point about better education...smarter tools may help, but since the powers that be in that company tried to legislate the technology for ALL saws (which would have cost the industry a fortune), I can't agree with it.

I have had a few accidents in my time, but nothing I would EVER blame on any manufacturer or the product they made. If you slip on a wet floor, it's not the fault of the mopper or the bucket manufacturer or the owner of the place. It's a fact of life that accidents will happen. Those of us who experience them, learn from them....that's old school...new school involves removing responsiblity and lawsuits for those who don't and I disagree with both.

I think I will have to agree to disagree with you on this one, but that being said there are many safety improvements that I do agree with...most of them took much less time to get on the market and did not involve legislation.

[Dino Makropoulos]

You have a great point about better education...smarter tools may help, but since the powers that be in that company tried to legislate the technology for ALL saws (which would have cost the industry a fortune), I can't agree with it.

I have had a few accidents in my time, but nothing I would EVER blame on any manufacturer or the product they made. If you slip on a wet floor, it's not the fault of the mopper or the bucket manufacturer or the owner of the place. It's a fact of life that accidents will happen. Those of us who experience them, learn from them....that's old school...new school involves removing responsiblity and lawsuits for those who don't and I disagree with both.

I think I will have to agree to disagree with you on this one, but that being said there are many safety improvements that I do agree with...most of them took much less time to get on the market and did not involve legislation.


Kelly. You screw me up now.
Let me give you the other side.
Few years ago I offer (for free) few safety Ideas and designs to a CO.
They love it. They even ask me to be part of (safety Brainstorm sessions)
In few days they have a new dept. ASDG (advance safety design group)
In few weeks the whole thing was off due to the LAWYERS.
So, I can see why they was force that route.
Any way let's hope that the SAW STOP can be the right catalyst for safety.
And I can see where you coming from to.
Time to go to sleep.
YCF Dino

[Ian Barley]

IF you read the post I quoted when I wrote the previous reply it seems like the gentleman and most others imply that this device is just a nice little braking device

Chris - I was attempting to write the section from the mind of a goofy 13 year old who isn't gonna have to pay for the blade. I know that the blade is destroyed just like most of the interior of a modern car is "destroyed" when its airbags go off. Small price as I know you will agree.


If the blade grabs the push stick then the push stick becomes a pull stick

Dino - Your quoted incident was on a jointer and no details were given. If the guy was using an adequate push stick his hands would never have been close enough that he couldn't have removed them in time. The only way in which I can conceive of a TS blade "grabbing" a push stick is if it becomes jammed between a descending tooth and the end of the table. In this instance the force applied at the holding end of the push stick would be an upward rotation. Maybe in a really extreme case you could end up with a wrenched shoulder but you'd still be counting to ten.

I have alrady wittered on too much on this thread. I suspect that averybody who has read my posts has worked out my position. I'm gonna stop now before it gets stupifyingly boring.

[Steve Clardy]

Good idea? Yes.
Am I going to buy one? Probably not. I have a good saw.
Am I willing to have this shoved on me due to their marketing and government intervention? No
Will I buy one after my saw dies? Probably not due to their marketing.
Will I buy one after loosing some or all of my fingers? Don't know. I may not be able to do the work I do if that happens.
What happens when the cartridge shuts the saw down, destroying the blade, maybe breaking it, or throwing teeth in your direction, and the blade is chewing on the table insert, a metal one, maybe throwing metal into your eyes? Is it that fast of a shutdown this won't happen?
So. There are lots of pros and cons to consider before I would purchase one.
For now, I DOUBT that I would purchase their saw. I am not going to say I never will, at least for the moment.:rolleyes:
Steve

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino - Your quoted incident was on a jointer and no details were given. If the guy was using an adequate push stick his hands would never have been close enough that he couldn't have removed them in time. The only way in which I can conceive of a TS blade "grabbing" a push stick is if it becomes jammed between a descending tooth and the end of the table. In this instance the force applied at the holding end of the push stick would be an upward rotation. Maybe in a really extreme case you could end up with a wrenched shoulder but you'd still be counting to ten.

. Sorry Ian. but I have to correct my mistake.And I hope you have your dinner by now.

Tool Type: Tablesaw
Experience Level: Beginner Injury Type: Needed Medical Attention
Accident Description
I was ripping a small board down when all fo the sudden my push stick broke, letting my hand slide right into the blade, since I was putting an extremely large amout of pressure on the board and push stick. After I had realized that my hand was gone, my arm was slipping into the blade as well. Surprisingly, I felt no pain in the first 4 seconds, but after about the 6th second, I was screaming. I managed to yell for help just before I passed out. My wife heard my call and took me to the hospital unconcience. After about 3 weeks in a coma, I woke up and started a 5 month recovery. To this day, I haven't found my arm or hand. Maybe one of my German Shepards ate them, I don't know for sure.
Advice to other Woodworkers
Don't be a dumby and put too much pressure on the cut
Tool Type: Tablesaw
Experience Level: Beginner Injury Type: Needed Medical Attention
Accident Description
Blade height too high. Guard off. push stick not big enough. Got nervous as i realized blade height too high. Tried to adjust hand on push stick. Next thing I know I'm off to the hospital with mangled ring finger, right hand. Sorry this is point form but one handed typing is a bitch as im discovering. (This just happened 3 1/2 hrs ago and my hand is bundled up, waiting for surgery tomorrow)
Advice to other Woodworkers
BLADE GUARD!!! BLADE GUARD!!! BLADE GUARD!!!
GOOD PUSH STICK!!! GOOD PUSH STICK!!! BUY ONE, DONT CHEAP OUT AND MAKE ONE, BUY SOMETHING DESIGNED FOR YOUR SAFETY


Tool Type: Tablesaw
Experience Level: Advanced Injury Type: Needed Medical Attention
Accident Description
The dado blade was in my saw and I needed to rip down a 2x6 real quick. So I changed the blade but did not bother to put the blade guard and splitter back in for this quick cut. Half way through the cut the wood bound up on the blade and kicked back. I was using a push stick but had the end of it in the palm of my hand and the force sent the push stick into my hand creating a 1/4" wide by 1 1/2" crater in my palm. Of course no one else was home so I had to knock on neighbors doors to find someone to take me to the hospital. I got 7 stiches and fortunatly the push stick went in between the tendons in my hand. When I got home I found blood covering my shop floor. I left it there to remind me to always use the guards.
Advice to other Woodworkers
Always use the guards and other safety devices with your tools, and make sure any push sticks handles are wide enough to hold properly and make sure your hand is around the stick and not the stick in your palm.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Push sticks is not the answer.
The RIGHT push sticks. Like you said,and mandatory (safety) training before you buy any tool with rotating blade or knifes... Is the answer.
After my close call with the radial arm saw I see things differend Ian.
I thought I got over it, but the most recent incident with the teenager fire me up again for another twenty years.
To me, if the sawstop save few thousand fingers and only one hand per year,Is a good thing. And as a woodworker I support this Idea and concept. The list that the saw stop did allready (and I know first hand) Is to force the power tool Companies to RETHINK about safety.

YCF Dino

[mike lucas]

I would not pay much extra for the features that come with that saw.

I am wondering how many would play around and use up a cartridge before they realized it. That would be $70 down the drain. How about the fact that one becomes complacent and careless when they know they can not get hurt? Next thing you know, they find out the hard way that they can get hurt. And by then it is too late.



The idea sounds great, but I would be leery about it working properly over the long haul. My table saw is 12 years old, and I expect it to last well beyond my life time. Will such a gadget on the sawstop last as long as the saw itself should?



What happens if the company goes under in a year or 2? Will you be able to find replacement cartridges? How about repair cost 5, 10, or even 20 years from now?



How about the refinements to the system over the next few years? Will the people that are basic Ginny pigs now, have to upgrade at additional cost?



There are many questions that will need to be answered before something like this becomes the norm in workshops.

[mike lucas]

I would like to know where you all have agreed with the price of $2200. I can only find the price of $2499, plus $200 if you want the 5hp motor, (And that is a different for Me.) then $329 for the 50" fence and another $99 for the table and legs. So now my $1800 5 hp Powermatic starts looking like the best deal in the world. The Sawstop setup like mine would be $3126. I am not including the Beismeyer overhead blade guard, mobile base, and splitter. As everything but the splitter would cost the same extra on both saws.
$1326 more then what I paid for mine. That is one hellova lot of extra money.
I could just about buy the Oliver 10" jointer for that.

As for dust collection, I have read and heard others state that they would like a better dust pickup system. But I can not complain any with the way mine works. Maybe I have a better dust collector then those complaining. I don't know!

So now the only things on that saw that could make it better then my PM66 is the blade stop, blade brake, and rivving knife. I do not need a blade brake. I do not think that is at all important on a saw in a one man shop. And the rivving knife is not important due too me having the Beismeyer splitter that only takes a couple seconds to remove, and even quicker to insert.
So it comes down to the safety of the blade stop system. And $1300 is too much to even think of an upgrade.

There are too many other areas in a shop to improve safety, like dust collectors, air filter/cleaners, picking up after yourself, shields and guards on all cutting machines. Heck! Watch Norm and you can see him making every type of cut without any safety devises. Now I do not condone following Norm’s way of woodworking. He does this for viewing prepossess. Never the less, he could easily get hurt filming. I use all the safety I feel I can without getting stupid with devices. After all, there are limits to what you can do.

At one time in our History, windshields where not even an option, they are now mandatory. People do become complacent as more and more safety devices come into play.

[Dave Wright #2]

Been out this past weekend. Picking up on a few points:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Mike Lucas,

I’ve already given an opinion on the complacency issue. If car development had taken that logic we wouldn’t have soft dashboards, crumple zones, air bags, and many other design features that literally save thousands of lives every year.
SawStop is designing and specifying the brakes and overall system to have a long working life. We won’t really know if they’ll work perfectly for 20 years until, well, 20 years has passed. Worst case you could rewire the saw to bypass the brake.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

On upgrades: A big part of the delay in getting these saws to market is SawStop’s desire to NOT have an upgrade shortly after the initial release. They don’t want to use the public as beta testers. They do consider the cartridges to be replaceable though, and have put as much of the brains in each cartridge as is practical. That way software upgrades can be effected by simply shipping a new cartridge.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

$2200 (actually $2199) was the original preorder price. A couple months ago they had to bump it to $2499 because of increases from the factory. At this point it’s low volume manufacturing with substantial design and tooling expense. On the plus side, SawStop has no advertising budget and does not yet sell through dealers, so the purchase price goes straight to them and Geetech instead of woodworking magazines, home shows, and middlemen. They will have to sell quite a few saws before development costs have been recovered.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Your math is accurate except I can’t find where you can order a new 5 HP PM66 for $1800. I get $2300 most places, which drops your difference to about $800. Everyone has to make their own decision regarding the value of the SawStop features. The value is certainly less for someone who already has a good cabinet saw.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Steve Clardy,<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

SawStop’s petition, for many woodworkers, hung the big bad brother image on them. Da’ man. No one tells us what to do, regardless of the value of their advice! IMO competing manufacturers telling their offshore manufacturers to not work with SawStop puts them in the same position. I’ve personally met the three owners and exchanged dozens of e-mails with Steve Gass. My business requires me to be a fair judge of character. I have not picked up the slightest hint of deception, interest in unfair trade practices, or any other ethical issues. They truly believe in the brake and simply want to see it made available to the woodworking public. Hindsight may prove that they were wrong, but they filed the petition because they thought it was the right thing to do for the woodworking industry and public. I don’t have a problem with that.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The saw won’t thrash around and throw metal at you when it stops. The blade comes to a full stop and disappears below the table top in less than ¼ revolution. The carbide tips are sunk into an aluminum brake shoe. No chance of them flying around. This fast a stop requires approximately 150 HP of power (for a very short duration) – force that mostly comes from the saw’s momentum. The saw is designed to take this momentary pulse of force with no ill effect other than damage to the cartridge and blade. I won’t go into technical details unless asked, but have looked closely at the details and consider it to be a very elegant and thoughtful design.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Christopher Pine,<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Yes, brake action demolishes the brake and blade. As I mentioned above, 150 HP of power, exerted opposite to the saw’s direction, is required to stop the blade in 0.005 seconds. Actually, that figure includes the sensing phase. The actual stop is even faster. A disk brake that clamped the blade sides instead of damaging the teeth would probably cost much more, be less reliable, stop the blade more slowly, and not pull the blade below the top.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Best Regards to All,<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Dave

[Steve Clardy]

Ok Dave. Thanks for the response back on one of my questions.
But just had a thought here. Wonder why they did not go with a motor brake concept instead of their blade brake.
Having a motor brake would not damage a blade, and having to replace that blade and a cartridge.
I know this isn't apples to apples, but look at CMS saws and PC framer saws with the motor brakes. Same principal I believe. Seems they could have applied a stop cartridge on the motor casting, going inside and braking the armature. Armature having a special place built to withstand damage to it.
Just another thought. Maybe they have already thought of or done this.
Steve

[Dave Wright #2]

Good question Steve. I haven’t thought to ask it of Steve Gass so far. I’m fairly sure the answer would be that stopping the motor instead of the blade would substantially increase to cost of the saw, require many more custom parts (bad for maintenance if SawStop goes out of business), and increase the stop time.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

They stop the blade because that is the lightest/smallest component. Most of the momentary 150 HP force is spent stopping the blade alone in 0.005 seconds. The arbor “coasts” to a stop with no more force than can be transferred through the arbor nut. It might take 0.05 seconds to come to a full stop. The pulleys and motor take even longer to stop – limited by their greater mass and the fact that the pulley/belt system is not designed to transfer more than 5 HP or so.<o:p> </o:p>

If you were to stop the whole shooting match at once, assuming the same 0.005 seconds goal, the forces would be astronomical. Let’s see…motor, pulleys, belts, arbor, and blade. Maybe 50 – 100 times the mass of the blade alone, so the required force would be 7500 – 15000 HP. Everything downstream of the motor would have to be built to withstand the related torque. The pulley/belt system and all shafts would have to be rated to match.<o:p> </o:p>

Sorry to ramble. I think that stopping the blade is the most economical solution. It may be impossible to achieve the same performance by stopping the motor, and it for certain would be beyond my budget. SawStop's performance goal, a 0.005 second stop, still can result in a nasty bandaid cut. Reducing system performance even a little bit could quickly escalate the injury to emergency room level. Standard human reaction time in these instances might be 1/4 second. A standard motor brake takes over a second to bring a blade to a full stop. Whole different orders of magnitude than SawStop's objective.

Take Care,<o:p> </o:p>
Dave

[JayStPeter]

Steve and Dave,

I don't see how you could stop that much momentum that quickly without a destructive impact. My CMS doesnt' stop quickly at all. Probably a good 5 or 6 revolutions from the motor. I have seen some pretty good stops out of electric motors, but all it takes is one tooth to go through your finger and it's gone.

As for cost, my feeling is that the SS compares more to the Laguna TS than a PM66. But, I've never seen the SS to verify. Just judging by features. The larger table, riving knife, and shroud DC in particular.

As for DC, I don't feel that DC on a standard cabinet saw (even a PM66) is great. Don't tell me that after cutting a bunch of wood there's not plenty of dust behind the saw. I certainly don't find it great on my Unisaw, even with the overarm guard. Better than a contractor saw, but still plenty of room for improvement. My feeling is that a shroud is the only way to improve on it.

Overall, I like the saw. If I didn't already have the Unisaw, I'd definitely put it as a contender. I do think they should offer an optional sliding table, since that seems like a safety feature to me also. I like the Laguna implementation of a US style saw with euro features including optional slider.

Jay

[Dave Wright #2]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11537

Above is a picture of a brake cartridge that has done its job. Blade momentum was absorbed by the teeth sinking into the aluminum block and distortion of the block itself. You can see small curls of aluminum pulled up as the teeth went in. Look closely to note the holes that are now out-of-round. The middle of three large holes has crumpled almost completely. This force absorption is similar to what happens to car crumple zones during accidents.

Picture taken by my digital camera during my visit to IWF 2004 in Atlanta.

It may be worth noting that during IWF I saw several demostrations of the blade brake run on a single stock production saw. The saw appeared to take the hit without damage except to the blade and brake. No growing gravelly sound from abused bearings. These brake forces, BTW, are why the saw has arbor bearings that are considerably more massive than a PM66.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I get an invalid link.

[Rich Konopka]

I don't understand why people are making a fuss over the cost of a cartridge and a blade. If an incident occurs and the saw stops resulting in a spent cartridge and a toasted blade isn't that a good thing?

Instead of a missing finger, hospital visit, doctor visits, and permanent injury. If you have the confidence that you willl not need the saw stop technology that that is good.

I personally think it is a great invention and should be noted. I'll be honest and admit I am still terrified of my saw and I totally respect it. But that doesn't mean I can't do anything stupid and hurt myself. Afterall, I am realtively new to this woodworking stuff and I can make mistakes. I also think that the long time woodworkers are just as vulnerable to injury either from rushing a cut or being complacent with safety.

I will definitely check out the Saw Stop next year when I graduate to the Cabinet Saw. I am looking forward to Dave's writeup.

Bring it on !!

[Steve Clardy]

Steve and Dave,

I don't see how you could stop that much momentum that quickly without a destructive impact. My CMS doesnt' stop quickly at all. Probably a good 5 or 6 revolutions from the motor. I have seen some pretty good stops out of electric motors, but all it takes is one tooth to go through your finger and it's gone.

As for cost, my feeling is that the SS compares more to the Laguna TS than a PM66. But, I've never seen the SS to verify. Just judging by features. The larger table, riving knife, and shroud DC in particular.

As for DC, I don't feel that DC on a standard cabinet saw (even a PM66) is great. Don't tell me that after cutting a bunch of wood there's not plenty of dust behind the saw. I certainly don't find it great on my Unisaw, even with the overarm guard. Better than a contractor saw, but still plenty of room for improvement. My feeling is that a shroud is the only way to improve on it.

Overall, I like the saw. If I didn't already have the Unisaw, I'd definitely put it as a contender. I do think they should offer an optional sliding table, since that seems like a safety feature to me also. I like the Laguna implementation of a US style saw with euro features including optional slider.

Jay
Jay
I'm a thinking here.:eek: Haven't got it whipped out yet. I need to ponder some of this before I type, as it might come out wrong.
My thoughts this afternoon are, why not go with the motor brake sytem. It's already here. CMS. Framer saws. I also have an overhead pin router, 3phase, 7 hp motor, with motor brake. Takes about 3 seconds to shut it down from 10,000 Rpm. 20,000 Rpm, about 5 seconds. Improve on it.
Or, go with two air cylinders, one on each side of the blade, putting even pressure on both sides, stopping the blade, and not damaging it hopefully. That would require a mini air compressor in the system.

Rich
Maybe some of us are on the CHEAP of some things. It takes a lot of money to run a 1 man business. Tooling is a monthly thing. Can't get around it.

Dave
I too would like to see the pic in your link. Won't come up.

Still contemplating this. More tomorrow.:eek:

Brother Chris.
You got quite a thread started here.:eek::rolleyes::)

[JayStPeter]

Jay
I'm a thinking here.:eek: Haven't got it whipped out yet. I need to ponder some of this before I type, as it might come out wrong.
My thoughts this afternoon are, why not go with the motor brake sytem. It's already here. CMS. Framer saws. I also have an overhead pin router, 3phase, 7 hp motor, with motor brake. Takes about 3 seconds to shut it down from 10,000 Rpm. 20,000 Rpm, about 5 seconds. Improve on it.
Or, go with two air cylinders, one on each side of the blade, putting even pressure on both sides, stopping the blade, and not damaging it hopefully. That would require a mini air compressor in the system.

[/color]

Ya know, I don't understand why bandsaws and grinders don't use motor braking to stop quicker. But, I still think that for the instantaneous stop required here, you need to destroy something. I think they chose the cheapest and easiest thing. It would be interesting to talk to the designer about what he tried to get where he is now. Must be some interesting rigs in there somewhere.

My biggest problem is that the two gashes I have in my Incra 1000SE miter gauge fence would've each cost me a blade and cartridge :eek: Well ... hopefully I would've learned after the first one :rolleyes:

Jay

[Steve Clardy]

Ya know, I don't understand why bandsaws and grinders don't use motor braking to stop quicker. But, I still think that for the instantaneous stop required here, you need to destroy something. I think they chose the cheapest and easiest thing. It would be interesting to talk to the designer about what he tried to get where he is now. Must be some interesting rigs in there somewhere.

My biggest problem is that the two gashes I have in my Incra 1000SE miter gauge fence would've each cost me a blade and cartridge :eek: Well ... hopefully I would've learned after the first one :rolleyes:

Jay
Well you and they may be right on how they are stopping the blade. Maybe they have already went through a dozen different routes. Would be interesting to find out.
And the motor brake. Yes. Could be more tools with it. I have an older heavy dayton 1x8 grinder that takes 15 minutes for it to spin down to a stop. 99.9 percent of the time this isn't a problem. But it would be nice to stop it quicker when you have just installed a new grinding wheel, fired it up, and it's out of balance so bad it's rocks around too much, and you are standing there holding it in place, and cannot reach a piece of metal to shove into the stone to get in stopped. lol

More tomorrow after I sleep on it. :eek:

Steve:)

[Rich Konopka]

Maybe some of us are on the CHEAP of some things. It takes a lot of money to run a 1 man business. Tooling is a monthly thing. Can't get around it.



Steve:

I can only imagine what the costs of running your own business this day and age. You already have an investment made. I am not saying that you should throw out that investment.

However, the percentage of time the TS is used in a shop is relatively high?? Am I correct? If an accident was to happen, statistically it would most likely happen on a TS. As a businessman could you afford the lost opportunity, lost revenue, a lost/damaged limb?, or lost of your livelihood? The cost of a blade and cartridge is a small price, Especially when you can write them off as part of a business.

You may view their marketing as strong armed but they are a small guy trying to play in the big league. Their initial attempts in pursuing mandates was mostly likely attributed to inexperience and being naive. The approach they now have taken by creating their own product is risky but one of necessity. I think they will succeed if the product trully works as advertised.

You had written that you don't like to use something shoved on you due to marketing or goverment intervention. Do you wear seatbelts everytime you jump in the car?

[Dave Wright #2]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11580&stc=1

I see the image when composing the message but only get a link when previewing. I see the image again when I click the link but apparently no one else can. If anyone can reply with the code needed to insert an image I'll try again.

Proving once again I'm not a computer guy,

Dave

[Jim Becker]

There is a bug when putting images "in line"...they don't display and just the link shows. You need to use the button in the formating bar rather than typing in HTML code. They will then display. Do keep in mind that linking to an off-forum photo may result in the thread being "missing" information when archived or if your remote site changes. Although using the attachment feature does limit you from annotation between shots, it at least stores the pics with the thread.

[Chris Padilla]

My biggest problem is that the two gashes I have in my Incra 1000SE miter gauge fence would've each cost me a blade and cartridge :eek: Well ... hopefully I would've learned after the first one :rolleyes:

Jay
Jay,

If I understand the technology used to detect a human body part (finger), a piece of metal should not give the same reading and therefore the blade brake should not engage.

[Dave Wright #2]

Chris,

Presumably Jay was touching metal on his Incra when the gashes were made. His body's electrical capacitance would have been picked up by SawStop conducted through the metal fence's electrical path, resulting in brake activation.

There will be activations on account of operator error - cutting metal panels without disabling the brake, slicing through the edge of a metal miter gauge, mounting the riving knife too close to the blade, etc.

Regards,

Dave

[Chris Padilla]

I guess it all depends on where one is touching the metal or if touching it at all. However, being an EE, it isn't correct ot say that metal conducts capacitance. Metal allows current flow or conducts charge...coulombs per second is an ampere. Capacitance is a coulomb per volt so the ratio of charge to potential difference is called capacitance. Anyway, more than you cared about but your point is made. :)

[JayStPeter]

I believe there is an override button made for cutting metal with the SS. Now that you mention it, I did participate in a thread somewhere (don't remember if it was here or another forum) that had some input from the inventor. I expressed my concern that my crosscut sled and miter gauge both have aluminum fences that ride mighty close to the blade. My crosscut sled is actually zero clearance, so you occasionally hear some contact with the blade. I can't remember his exact response, but I think he said that won't set it off unless my finger is right there (where I wouldn't put it). So, I'll retract my comment :D .

Jay

[Chris Padilla]

Jay,

I'm sure Mr. Gass has done plenty of testing here but the capacitance of the human body varies all over the place and so anything but direct contact with the blade might not always set off the blade brake. The humidity, temperature, body moisture, oil on your fingers, etc., etc. will impact the capacitance. Remember that capacitance exists between any two conducting bodies (with charge on them) separated by some distance and some kind of dielectric (could be air).

[Dave Wright #2]

Steve mentioned that in a test with his own finger the brake didn't trip until blood contact had been made. Roll the finger in with great caution. Feel the saw rubbing his skin. No braking. Roll a little more. No brake, but a deep scratch. Roll the finger a little closer to the blade. BAM! Brake activated and a small drop of blood coming out of Steve's finger. Evidently blood contact was required.

Then again...the hot dog demostrations haven't required blood contact. Maybe that's because of the much greater contact area between fingers and dog. In any case, I wouldn't risk unjustified brake activation by running the saw with metal in a zero clearance placement relative to the blade.

[Bart Leetch]

Well I've stayed away from this thread until now.

But wouldn't the blood = moisture & the water in the hot dog = moisture too?

So wouldn't the common denominator be moisture? ;) :)

[Chris Padilla]

Bart,

Excellent observation. Pure water is nonconductive but as we know, water contains a whole lotta stuff and that is what conducts.

You all might recall from school that blood is very close to seawater in content. We also know that seawater is a decent conductor of electricity.

I think hot dogs are pretty salty, too.... :)

[Steve Clardy]

Steve:

I can only imagine what the costs of running your own business this day and age. You already have an investment made. I am not saying that you should throw out that investment.

However, the percentage of time the TS is used in a shop is relatively high?? Am I correct? If an accident was to happen, statistically it would most likely happen on a TS. As a businessman could you afford the lost opportunity, lost revenue, a lost/damaged limb?, or lost of your livelihood? The cost of a blade and cartridge is a small price, Especially when you can write them off as part of a business.

You may view their marketing as strong armed but they are a small guy trying to play in the big league. Their initial attempts in pursuing mandates was mostly likely attributed to inexperience and being naive. The approach they now have taken by creating their own product is risky but one of necessity. I think they will succeed if the product trully works as advertised.

You had written that you don't like to use something shoved on you due to marketing or goverment intervention. Do you wear seatbelts everytime you jump in the car?
Rich. I am like Ian here. I probably run my table saw more in a week than most hobbyst do in a year. I am very comfortable running a table saw. [That statement might bite me here in this thread.:eek:]
At this point I see no need to change to the SS saw. I have other tools I would like to purchase, other than replacing what I already have that works.
I agree that the cost of a blade and cartridge would be cheap compared to a lost finger or other parts. I don't think anyone could deny that. I just think that there are other ways of dealing with stopping the blade. Just as good? I don't know. I am not an engineer and don't have the time or money to do something different. Am I capable of doing something like this? Yes. I design my own jigs, make a lot of things to fit my needs. I can machine, weld, fabricate, rebuild, etc. I was in the trucking industry for 25 years. I didn't just replace parts, I fixed them, or made new ones.
Seatbelts. Another story for another topic. I do not wear seat belts. In Missouri there is a law overriding the mandated seat belt law. If you run 12,000 tags on your 1/2 ton pickup, you are not subject to wear them. I run 12,000 tags.
Back to the table saw being dangerous. I have another machine that I feel is more dangerous. The 3hp shaper. I consider this the most dangerous machine in MY shop. I respect the power of a shaper and what it can do. I am very careful around it, more so than a table saw.
I run routers also, lots of them.[15] Most are dedicated to one task. Some are handheld. I am just as likely to loose part of my hand with a router as a table saw. Have you ever experienced having a router throw a piece of wood into you or across the shop? Now that's a rush you won't forget.
There are a lot of tools and machinery in the shop that are dangerous. Not just a table saw.

Been rambling on here. Later
Steve:):)

[mike lucas]

When I seen the SS page where they bragged on the bearing size being the largest, that the only reason it was that size was because it had to be larger to withstand the impact of the braking. The same with the arbor size, they had to make it this size to hold up with the impact of the stop feature.

So Powermatic PM66 still has the best bearing unless the SS never has to be used:eek:
As for table size. The PM66 has a cast iorn table size of 28x36. What is the size on the Sawstop cabinet saw? I would guess that sense they show all saws as being a minimum of 27x36. That this would be the table size of the sawstop cabinet saw. If this is true, then to the one that stated the sawstop was more in line with the Laguna and not the PM66 because of the table size, well they would be wrong.

How much does the cabinet saw weigh? My PM66 weights in at 603# the General is next at 562#

[Steve Clardy]

When I seen the SS page where they bragged on the bearing size being the largest, that the only reason it was that size was because it had to be larger to withstand the impact of the braking. The same with the arbor size, they had to make it this size to hold up with the impact of the stop feature.

So Powermatic PM66 still has the best bearing unless the SS never has to be used:eek:
As for table size. The PM66 has a cast iorn table size of 28x36. What is the size on the Sawstop cabinet saw? I would guess that sense they show all saws as being a minimum of 27x36. That this would be the table size of the sawstop cabinet saw. If this is true, then to the one that stated the sawstop was more in line with the Laguna and not the PM66 because of the table size, well they would be wrong.

How much does the cabinet saw weigh? My PM66 weights in at 603# the General is next at 562#
Bigger Arbor? I caught that one.:eek:
Is the arbor bigger just where it goes through the bearings, or bigger clear through to the blade shaft? If it's bigger there, then your standard WWII blade or whatever you run won't fit, as most are 5/8" bore. Then it's either buy specific blades, or find a saw service shop that can bore your blades to fit the arbor.:rolleyes:

Steve:)

[Dave Wright #2]

The SS cast iron top is 30" deep x 44" wide. That's a 24" center section bolted to the cabinet saw base plus 10" wings bolted to each side.

The SS version that is most comparable to Mike's PM66 is listed as weighing 685 pounds. I think that includes the 52" fence, right side extension table, and legs - a "wet" weight if you will. Shipping weight is even more.

The SS arbor is turned down to 5/8" at the blade attachment point. It will take conventional 13/16" width dado blades. The arbor appears even more massive because of the sleeved construction that is required to electrically isolate the blade.

[Chris Padilla]

Dave,

What is the ETA of your SS TS?

[Dave Wright #2]

Recent word was that the next run of 100 (which I believe is the second run of the saws) had been pushed into late this month by increased production of Ridgid saws. The Borg strike again. I've been advised to expect a delivery coordination call in November, and that the saw should be in my shop before Xmas.

The waiting doesn't bother me; I have plenty of project work that would be interrupted by the saw's arrival. I will have to drop things to install 240, assemble the saw (fairly easy), and make a mobile base.

I've been on the lookout for print reviews. I hear that the just-released FWW issue doesn't include their review. Wood magazine has a saw too, but is considering holding off publishing a review until they've used it for several months. Evidently there are delays with more than SS.

Dave

[Jim Becker]

Regarding reviews, there is up to a six month lag between when a tool is received and a review will be seen in print...under even normal conditions. It's the way the publishing industry works. The lead times are very long.

[Dave Wright #2]

Thanks Jim. It's good to know that this lag is normal.

[mike lucas]

The SS cast iron top is 30" deep x 44" wide. That's a 24" center section bolted to the cabinet saw base plus 10" wings bolted to each side.

The SS version that is most comparable to Mike's PM66 is listed as weighing 685 pounds. I think that includes the 52" fence, right side extension table, and legs - a "wet" weight if you will. Shipping weight is even more.

The SS arbor is turned down to 5/8" at the blade attachment point. It will take conventional 13/16" width dado blades. The arbor appears even more massive because of the sleeved construction that is required to electrically isolate the blade. Very nice size table top. I would guess that the 80-90 pounds come from the larger table, arbor, and bearing.
So it sounds like the two saws are very much the same in size and weight other then the 3 areas I mentioned above.

If I ever needed a second saw, I would definitly look into the Sawstop. It does sound like a very nice table saw to say the least.

What would be the harm in using dado blades without the brake stop system turned on? When cutting rattets and dado`s you should be protected near 100% (Other then the board being kicked back into you and expossing the massive dado cutter.) So I would think that the added cost for that would not be too important.

[Dave Wright #2]

Dados can be cut with the system turned off and/or the standard 10" brake cartridge in place. There are no interlocks to prevent this. SS's intent, though, is for you to change to the 8" dado blade brake cartridge before installing your dado blade. As you would imagine, that cartridge is designed for this application. Changing the cartridges takes about 1 minute and no tools - less time than it takes me to install my dado blade and tweak its cut width.

You're probably right on the key weight factors. The carriage mechanism that travels vertically as required by the riving knife feature adds weight too. Quite a while ago I speculated to Steve Gass that the true riving knife feature would add more cost to the saw than the blade brake did. I seem to remember him confirming that guess.

Regards, Dave

[Dave Wright #2]

Production started on the next run of saws this past week. They should be packed up and put out to sea in the next week or two. Figure I'll be lucky if the voyage, QC check and tune-up in Oregon, and shipping cross country to SC puts it in my shop before December.

Steve Gass was nice enough to send me a draft of the Owner's Manual. It is understandable, well-illustrated, and thorough enough for my tastes. The saw is to arrive fully adjusted at the factory, but the machine's design provides better tunability than competing table saws. The table top has a rotating pin and set screws to make fine tuning of the miter slot/blade alignment easy. The tilt axis can be adjusted to lie perfectly within the plane of the table top (essential for the blade to stay parallel to the miter slots as it is tilted). I think this adjustment on competing saws is done with shims and no factory documented procedure.

A few new features came to my attention too.

-- Working a dripping wet piece of wood? Trying out your aluminum fence aftermarket miter gauge that rides close to the blade? Those situations might make you wonder if the blade brake will somehow electrically connect with your body and release when not needed - costing you a cartridge and ruining a nice blade. You can test them by engaging the bypass function and making a cut. The brake will not fire when in bypass, but the LED display will flash in a special pattern to tell you if it WOULD have fired.

-- The system is designed to allow cutting of green or wet wood, but apparently there are some situations where the wood will be cut without the brake releasing but the sensor may not be able to detect skin contact with 100% reliability or as fast as intended. In these cases the electronics shut down the motor and display a unique error code. You then have the option of drying the wood further (not viable for many of us) or cutting it in bypass mode.

-- The saw will not run without a blade, or with an incorrectly sized blade. There is a sensor that detects excessive gap between the blade and the brake shoe.

I'm still impressed with the saw after reading the manual carefully. They've put in a lot of thought and effort.

[Chris Padilla]

Sounds good, Dave. Keep us informed!

[Charlie Plesums]

The question nobody seems to be concerned about is false alarms. Basically it is looking for a small amount of static electricity from the body - but if it picks it up from somewhere else, you are out a blade and a $60 brake.

I am glad to pay for seat belts and air bags, and might pay for a saw stop, but if the airbags misfired occasionally, I would avoid the air bags. If the saw stop misfires occasionally......

[Craig Colvin]

The question nobody seems to be concerned about is false alarms. Basically it is looking for a small amount of static electricity from the body - but if it picks it up from somewhere else, you are out a blade and a $60 brake.
It actually uses body capacitance, not static electricity. If it were using static electricity, then I agree it would be a concern. But with body capacitance something would actually have to touch the blade to cause it to fire.

[Dave Wright #2]

False alarms would indeed be a real problem. SawStop is aware of that and has worked hard to eliminate them. Beta saws have been in Oregon area cabinet shops for quite a while - maybe since early this year. There have been a limited number of unjustified brake releases. All were figured out later on, and steps were taken to prevent their occurence on the consumer versions.

One set of unjustified releases took a while to solve. Turns out that the riving knife had been set slightly too close to the blade and was just barely grounding it to the arbor block during certain blade/MC combinations. Keep the blade/knife gap at least 2mm for your largest diameter blade and you'll be OK.

Follow the manual instructions and there should be little chance of an unjustified release.

[Rich Konopka]

Dave:

Do you know if a third party fence( Biesmeyer, Incra) can be installed with the SS. Has any of the early adopters chosen to? Has SS indicated there will be an aftermarket for their saw?

Thanks

[Dave Wright #2]

Rich,

I haven't asked either question of SS, but am willing to speculate. The SS fence looked pretty good when I visited their booth @ IWF. You may already have a different aftermarket fence to use on the saw and save some money. That shouldn't be a problem. Worst case you might have to drill new holes in the case iron top. One warning though: the top is 30" deep; fences that depend on a predictable Unisaw (27") or PM66 (28"?) top depth won't work.

I have not heard of any beta testers using fences other than the SS one.

For sure there won't be an aftermarket until a good number of the saws are out, and demand for particular accessories has been established. I could see several useful ones though. There may be some need for miter gauges or tenon jigs with non-conductive parts. How about a Benchdog router extension wing to match the 30" top depth? Maybe a fence w/ far end hold down so that the saw can be used with stock feeders. There could be some demand for overarm guards with integral dust collection.

I'm going to make a few accessories myself right after the saw arrives: mobile base, right side extension wing with my router installed, and folding left side and outfeed supports.

Best,

Dave

[Rich Konopka]

I had picked up on a SawStop thread at Woodnet from Steve Gass that the UL is expected to make a recommendation for TS to come equipped with a riving knife. Has anyone else heard of this?

TGIAF

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Not except for that thread, but I am defintely for that.

[Chris Padilla]

Okay, clear me up on what exactly is a riving knife. Isn't it just a splitter behind the saw blade...basically?

[Steve Jenkins]

Chris a riving knife is kinda like a splitter except that it will rise,lower and tilt with the blade. I removed the side guard from the saw for clarity:>)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Ya beat me to it Steve...you burning the night oil over there?

[Steve Jenkins]

headed home, back about 3am.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Ahhh...the joys of owning your own business!! :eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D

[mike lucas]

Can you imagine that you are about 30% complete with a really big job that you tried for months to get, when all at once your pretty new mother of all toys (That you lay awake at night dreaming for hours about.) decides to do a false alarm.

Now you have no table saw until the replacement brake, blade, (and what ever else needs replaced after the blade thinks it came in contact with your hand).

I guess that is the chance many have to answer to them self when they want too be the first to own the very latest invention.


I do not wish this on anyone, but I do think it will be happening to amny times.

Sure my Powermatic Model-66 table saw could blow the motor, ot some other disaster that would put me in a real bind.
But the likely hood is not as great, as with the latest an greatest machine.

[Ted Harris]

Can you imagine that you are about 30% complete with a really big job that you tried for months to get, when all at once your pretty new mother of all toys (That you lay awake at night dreaming for hours about.) decides to do a false alarm.

Now you have no table saw until the replacement brake, blade, (and what ever else needs replaced after the blade thinks it came in contact with your hand).

I guess that is the chance many have to answer to them self when they want too be the first to own the very latest invention.


I do not wish this on anyone, but I do think it will be happening to amny times.

Sure my Powermatic Model-66 table saw could blow the motor, ot some other disaster that would put me in a real bind.
But the likely hood is not as great, as with the latest an greatest machine.
Says who, you? :eek:

[Craig Colvin]

Can you imagine that you are about 30% complete with a really big job that you tried for months to get, when all at once your pretty new mother of all toys (That you lay awake at night dreaming for hours about.) decides to do a false alarm.

Now you have no table saw until the replacement brake, blade, (and what ever else needs replaced after the blade thinks it came in contact with your hand).

I guess that is the chance many have to answer to them self when they want too be the first to own the very latest invention.


I do not wish this on anyone, but I do think it will be happening to amny times.

Sure my Powermatic Model-66 table saw could blow the motor, ot some other disaster that would put me in a real bind.
But the likely hood is not as great, as with the latest an greatest machine.
Can you imagine, having a big deadline, being 30% complete, working late, your tired and just not thinking, when suddenly you cut your fingers off and have to take a trip to the emergency room? Can't work for the next 4-6 weeks? :rolleyes: A false alarm seems like a small price to pay.

I am purchasing a replacement cartridge with the saw so there wouldn't be any downtime if a false or real event were ever to occur.

[Bill Esposito]

Testing, testing, testing, it's all about testing. While I wont rule out a SawStop in my future it wont happen until it has been thuroughly tested, which I believe it has not been.

Get a thousand of them out there and come up with some good stats over a couple of years and I might be very interested in the saw.

And dont forget you will still need all the safety devices to combat the most common accident, kickback.

This is one product I dont want to be on the "bleeding edge" of. :)

[Dave Wright #2]

Bill,

It sounds like you have detailed knowledge of SawStop's shop and beta testing. If so, can you share it with us? On the other hand, your statement may have been based on the fact that there aren't 1000 of the saws that have worked in average Joe consumer shops for at least two years to establish a real world track record. Can't argue with that position.

My impression is that SawStop takes false alarms very seriously. They have worked hard to identify their causes and design the saw to avoid them. The Owner's Manual lists a number of design features and use practices to avoid false alarms.

Regards,

Dave

[Bill Esposito]

Bill,

It sounds like you have detailed knowledge of SawStop's shop and beta testing. If so, can you share it with us? On the other hand, your statement may have been based on the fact that there aren't 1000 of the saws that have worked in average Joe consumer shops for at least two years to establish a real world track record. Can't argue with that position.

My impression is that SawStop takes false alarms very seriously. They have worked hard to identify their causes and design the saw to avoid them. The Owner's Manual lists a number of design features and use practices to avoid false alarms.

Regards,

Dave

Dave,

The latter is correct. Like I said, I dont want to be on the bleeding edge.

In my business we do lots of testing. I've seen things go through 5000+ hours of test, doing all the right things, all the right types of testers, all the right types of tests, only to fail miserably within a few days of being used by the "average joe" as you put it because we missed something really obvious.

I've made similar comments over the years in similar threads on other boards, threads where Steve Gass (or Glass) was a participant and he never addressed the amount or quality of testing. While this is second hand information I thought I read that one reason for his petition failing was the lack of real world testing....but again, that's only what I've read.

How will it work in my shop which may get down to 4°F at night and then get rapidly heated so that I can work in it. Or how bout when the moisture is so bad in the spring that everything is wet. I've posed these questions before, never heard a satisfactory answer.

All the best engineering in the world is not a substitute for testing.

The reality is that the environment where the product will be used has a wide range of parameters (I also do alot of environmental testing like temp, humidity, shock, vibe, salt spray, etc) and I've seen no indication in any of the threads on the subject that SS has has performed much of that. I hope they have.

So all I'm saying is that with my background and experience, if I was going to buy one of the first ones I would want to see the test plan, procedures and results. Short of that, I'll wait for a couple years of widespread testing.

[Chris Padilla]

Unrelated to SS but related to testing. I do EMC work for a living. That is electromagnetic compliance or regulatory testing...kinda UL type of stuff or CE mark stuff if those mean anything to you.

The networking company I work for started putting out IP phones a couple years ago. Now, you want to talk about a product that will be put into an almost unbelievable amount of different environments, you can't do much better than a desktop phone. It is ~2 years later and we are still developing new testing procedures (most are just company developed tests...not even regulatory or even mandated...save by us) to try and keep up with the mulitude of field issues that crop up weekly. It is positively dizzying the number of special tests we go through on developing phones.

There is simply no way in heck we could have even dreamed up half the tests we now do...we more or less rely on putting the phone "out there" and seeing what new fangled testing we need to cover.

This is akin to buying the first year of a new car model. You are basically a guinea pig no matter how experiened the company is or how much pre-testing they go through. As Bill points out, the saw needs to be out in the real world for a year or two or three before we'll know if Mr. Gass covered all his bases. Odds are good he did not but that is just the nature of the beast. Personally, I will never buy the first model of the new model of car...never. If others want to be the first, (Mr. Wright, for example) my hat is off to you and I appreciate your willingness to plunk your money down and get some time on the new product. I'm not so brave! :)

I would think that it might be a good idea for the first 500-1000 (whatever) runs of this new saw to either include a free blade brake or make it possible to get a free first blade brake or something like that. Mr. Gass may be extremely confident in his testing "all possible situations" but my experience says otherwise.

Dave, I think we all look forward to hearing what you think over the next year...I know I do! :) I really appreciate you keeping track of this thread and addressing it as it grows and grows and grows! :)

[Dave Wright #2]

Chris & Bill,

No problem keeping up with this thread. I just click on it during my regular visits if it's floated up to the first page again. Lots of good thoughts running through this thread.

I'm sure that the saw hasn't been put through the extensive and creative testing that you mention. The wait has been long, but not that long. I think that the amount of testing that they've done is appropriate though, seeing how they're not a large company with deep pockets expecting to spread the cost of an exhaustive testing program out over 1 million units sold in the next 5 years. A few related notes:

-- I don't know about rapid temperature transitions, but do know that the brake has been tested in very low temperatures. Below freezing. Don't know the exact temperature. The brake cartridge has a small source of resistance heat that kicks in below some temperature. I think this has to do with ensuring that the fuse will melt when required. The saw has to have power all the time, of course, to feed this little heater.

-- SawStop doesn't expect there to be problems with the cartridges, but has taken the wise step of designing the saw so that upgrades (or fixes, call them what you will) can be done easily. All of the "brains" of the unit are in the cartridge. Problems either way (false alarms or not firing when needed) can hopefully be addressed with revisions to the electronics. Simply send every saw owner a new cartridge.

Oh yea...the assumption. I haven't asked this of Steve Gass, but expect that SawStop will carefully investigate all false alarms, and attempt to address design-related (as opposed to operator error) false alarms with changes to the brake cartridge. New cartridges should go out to existing saw owners. I know what they say about "assume" though.

Best,

Dave

[Rich Konopka]

I received the FWW Tools & Shops 2004/2005 Annual issue yesterday afternoon. On page 66 was an article titled "A Safer Tablesaw Finally Arrives" with a header underneath "But will blade-stopping technology revolutionize the woodworking-tool industry?"

I believe Dave Wright had mentioned that Kelly Mehler was evaluating one of the first production saws for this article.

It is a quick article and is not an evaluation or review but simply a test of the safety features. The second sentence of the article state's "After testing one of the first SawStop machines shipped from th Geetech factory in Taiwan, I'm happy to report with this saw, the industry has made a majoe leap forward."

Kelly tested the saw out and demonstrated it in front of one of his classes he teaches. He took a hotdog, chicken leg, and a sopping wet piece of PT wood. The saw performed to the expectations that has been vigorously discussed in the past. In one test of rapidly moving the leg into the blade a gash large enough to require stiches was made. This observation was made by a medical doctor attending the class. He did note that the rate of moving into the blade was excessive and was not how one would normally proceed.

Kelly also pointed out that there was an electrical problem that twice inadvertently shutdown the machine. He indicated that this is a problem and it has to be addressed as a quality control issue from SawStop.

I noticed that he did not mention anything about the construction, build quality, fence or any other features. I'm sure this is not the last we will be seeing of the SawStop.

There is also a sidebar that discusses the indusries perception of this innovation and the effects. It also talke about Stephen Gass and his petition.

Overall a good little article but to me it is missing some key areas around the quality, features and construction.

Cheers

[Dave Wright #2]

My issue will probably arrive soon. FWW seems to hit my mailbox later than some other people. I'll be interested to read the article.

Very sorry to hear that they only discussed the blade brake, for SawStop's sake. Blade brake? That's nice...maybe 100 people will order the saw. Excellent new saw with quality construction and innovative features, one of which happens to have a blade brake? Super!...jot down 1000 orders.

Sorry also to hear that they considered the industry situation to be worthy of special comment. I honestly consider that to be "off topic". If you're not going to spend a couple days digging into the whole story then you would do best to leave the issue alone. I hear that UL may recommend that all table saws have riving knives. No one has been raising heck about that remark (made in this thread and elsewhere on the Web), but it will IMO add more to the cost of a heavy duty cabinet saw than the blade brake would. The Unisaw, PM66, and most other saws would have to be totally reworked to get a riving knife. If they are forced to do that you can bet that they will "coincidentally" leave room below and behind the blade to fit a blade brake.

Electrical problems shutting down the machine? That might have been Kelly's fault. I've read the owner's manual. There are a number of ways that the saw can "malfunction" that are actually operator error. No impact on regular saw use, but owners of this saw should read the manual.

I heard from Steve Gass last week about my saw. It's in a container chugging across the Pacific as I write this. It should be in my shop early in December.

Thanks Again,

Dave

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Dave, maybe you should take some time to consider your aggressive and unrelenting defense of the Sawstop. I understand you believe in the saw and have purchased one and that's great, but maybe you should just back off until the Sawstop is in a few shops and has had an independent review or two.

Look at your last post.

You think the electrical problems Kelley Mahler ran into were "his fault" even though you haven't even seen the article in question and have no direct knowledge of the nature of the problem?

You are "sorry" they considered the industry situation to be worthy of special comment. The viability of the Sawstop as a company is more important than the innovations they are bringing to the table saw. The buyer must be assured a replacement cartridge will be available ten years down the road. You can have standard parts for those Delta or Jet saws machined locally, I doubt you can have a brake cartridge manufactured.

Then you bring in the red herring of UL recommending the riving knife be standard equipment on table saws. As I understand it, UL has no regulating power and their function is to test existing products. This is an apples to oranges comparison at best and at example obfuscation at its worst.

A reasoned, well thought out response to individual questions is great. Knee-jerk responses to EVERY post is not so great.

[Rich Konopka]

Very sorry to hear that they only discussed the blade brake, for SawStop's sake. Blade brake? That's nice...maybe 100 people will order the saw. Excellent new saw with quality construction and innovative features, one of which happens to have a blade brake? Super!...jot down 1000 orders. I agree and although Kelly praised the safety fetures, IMHO he did not leverage his expertise in tablesaws for this article.




Electrical problems shutting down the machine? That might have been Kelly's fault. I've read the owner's manual. There are a number of ways that the saw can "malfunction" that are actually operator error. No impact on regular saw use, but owners of this saw should read the manual.

I dunno about that. I think Kelly is qualified enough to properly use a tablesaw. After all, he wrote the book on tablesaws.http://sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/wink.gif



I heard from Steve Gass last week about my saw. It's in a container chugging across the Pacific as I write this. It should be in my shop early in December.
An Early Christmas present !! http://sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif I look forward to your review and comments. I compliment you on you pioneering the SawStop and sharing your experiences with us.


Dave, maybe you should take some time to consider your aggressive and unrelenting defense of the Sawstop. I understand you believe in the saw and have purchased one and that's great, but maybe you should just back off until the Sawstop is in a few shops and has had an independent review or two.

Look at your last post.

You think the electrical problems Kelley Mahler ran into were "his fault" even though you haven't even seen the article in question and have no direct knowledge of the nature of the problem?

You are "sorry" they considered the industry situation to be worthy of special comment. The viability of the Sawstop as a company is more important than the innovations they are bringing to the table saw. The buyer must be assured a replacement cartridge will be available ten years down the road. You can have standard parts for those Delta or Jet saws machined locally, I doubt you can have a brake cartridge manufactured.

Then you bring in the red herring of UL recommending the riving knife be standard equipment on table saws. As I understand it, UL has no regulating power and their function is to test existing products. This is an apples to oranges comparison at best and at example obfuscation at its worst.

A reasoned, well thought out response to individual questions is great. Knee-jerk responses to EVERY post is not so great.
Dennis,

I do not think Dave is any different than many others on SMC. If you look at how passionate people are about thier MiniMax's (me included) , Festools, Unisaw's, and etc.... Dave is just exhibiting his confidence in the SawStop.

I actually made the comment earler in the thread about the UL. I had read about it on another forum. FWIW

Cheers,

[Dave Wright #2]

Dennis,

I used the word "might" in the electrical paragraph. I can see how some people would consider my posts as overly defensive of SS. If that's the case then my posts have done SS a disservice. I will take care to avoid speculation in future posts, and lower my posting frequency.

You may rest assured of one thing though. Problems with setup and operation of my saw will be posted @ SMC with the same honesty and at the same length with which I have stated my pre-delivery optimism. I have no financial interest in the company and am paying full price for the saw out of my personal bank account.

Thanks for lending some perspective.

Regards,

Dave

[Frank Pellow]

Dave, I have learned from your posts and I think that they are not overly pro-SawStop. Please keep them comming.

[Mark Singer]

THe is an interesting article/review on the Sawstop in FWW #174...it is on page 66 (coincidence with PM66) Well it looks like a nice machine...they have switch from hot dogs to chicken....no one even a saw should be on a steady diet of hot dogs. It shows the mechanism works and it lists the number of table saw accidents 33,114 in 2002 alone....makes me a bit chicken too.;)

[Dave Wright #2]

My FWW issue arrived yesterday. I sent the following to FWW via e-mail. Note that I don't ask them for a positive review...I just want a reasonably thorough review.

-------------------

Fine Woodworking Editorial Staff,

I just read Kelly Mehler’s review of the SawStop cabinet saw in FWW #174, the current Tools & Shops issue. It is good to hear that the blade brake works, and that the saw has a number of other effective safety features, but I had been hoping to get more general information about the saw and how it compares to competing North American style cabinet saws. Did it unpack and set up easily and precisely? How flat is the top? What is the runout figure? What is the apparent quality of castings, materials, and workmanship? Does the fence move smoothly, lock square, and withstand abuse? Does the integral dust collection shroud keep the cabinet interior chip-free? I understand that threaded adjusters allow easy alignment of the miter slots with the blade. Are there other innovative features? How does the machine operate and cut in comparison with long-standing North American style saws like the Unisaw, PM66, and Jet cabinet saw? Do you consider the saw to be a good dollar value?

Mr. Mehler’s article will interest buyers for whom safety is the single major factor, but most saw purchase decisions are based on a wide range of considerations. FWW should follow up with a real review of the SawStop cabinet saw. Car & Driver doesn’t review cars by crashing them and only reporting how well the airbag worked. Tell us more!

[Frank Pellow]

My FWW issue arrived yesterday. I sent the following to FWW via e-mail. Note that I don't ask them for a positive review...I just want a reasonably thorough review.

-------------------

Fine Woodworking Editorial Staff,

I just read Kelly Mehler’s review of the SawStop cabinet saw in FWW #174, the current Tools & Shops issue. It is good to hear that the blade brake works, and that the saw has a number of other effective safety features, but I had been hoping to get more general information about the saw and how it compares to competing North American style cabinet saws. Did it unpack and set up easily and precisely? How flat is the top? What is the runout figure? What is the apparent quality of castings, materials, and workmanship? Does the fence move smoothly, lock square, and withstand abuse? Does the integral dust collection shroud keep the cabinet interior chip-free? I understand that threaded adjusters allow easy alignment of the miter slots with the blade. Are there other innovative features? How does the machine operate and cut in comparison with long-standing North American style saws like the Unisaw, PM66, and Jet cabinet saw? Do you consider the saw to be a good dollar value?

Mr. Mehler’s article will interest buyers for whom safety is the single major factor, but most saw purchase decisions are based on a wide range of considerations. FWW should follow up with a real review of the SawStop cabinet saw. Car & Driver doesn’t review cars by crashing them and only reporting how well the airbag worked. Tell us more!
Those are all good questions. I am surprised that FWW would publish an article that did not address at least some of them. The saw should be judged on all its merits and de-merits, not upon what I regard to be a bit of a gimick (I know that this is a very personal opinion, but it is how I feal and I might as well be up front about this ). In spite of my opinion of this feature, the saw does have a lot of things that I do consider to be important, such as a riving knife. I had heard that FWW had an article on the Saw Stop saw and was looking forward to reading it. Now, I doubt that i will bother to do so.

[Rich Person]

Dave (or anyone else),

Do you have any information about the shipping cost of the saw. I am on the waiting list and still considering whether I want to spend this much on a saw from a new company, even though I love the features. With fence and table it comes to over $2900. I am wondering if I will see an additional $200-300 for shipping also? Is that the case or do they ship for free (please, please).

Rich

[Dave Wright #2]

Rich,

Sorry for missing this earlier. I must have been out when it popped up and then rotated off the first page. The price does not include shipping. SawStop has investigated many options to reduce that cost. They don’t have warehouses dotted around the country to reduce the distance, so it is essentially a single custom order point-to-point. It’s a large and complex shipment too. Buyers get 4 pieces by Yellow Freight (saw, cast iron extensions, fence rails, fence and miscellaneous hardware). The largest piece, the saw, is essentially a 600+ pound 42” cube. The others can be lifted by a single person. A fifth piece (cartridges, manual, and ferrite filter) is mailed separately from SawStop to your address.

I have heard of $250 to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place>California</st1:place></st1:State> addresses. There were a few options for delivery to my SC residence. $335 would have gotten the boxes held at a Yellow Freight terminal in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Georgia</st1:place></st1:country-region> (100 miles from my house). $430 gets them to the Yellow Freight terminal that is closet to my house (24 miles away). For about $530 I could have had everything delivered directly to my house on a liftgate truck. I went with the second option. A friend and I will have them forklift the boxes into his pickup truck. We will winch them up and back down to the floor back at my shop. The Yellow terminals are open 24/7, which is handy since we’d rather not miss work to do this. Call ahead and they can have the boxes handy when you arrive.

Yellow tracking says delivery Monday for mine. Their customer service said that it might actually be in <st1:City><st1:place>Greenville</st1:place></st1:City> on Friday. I should call when tracking says that it has arrived, and may be able to pick it up on Sunday. More on this saga later…

Regards,

Dave

[Chris Padilla]

Cool, Dave...I'm kinda excited for ya! Can't wait to see the pics or hear your thoughts! :)

[Lincoln Myers]

Heard a pretty good story about the ongoing developments of SawStop on NPR the other day.

Here is a link to the story, you can listen to it by clicking on "Listen" near the top of the page...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4182602

[Chris Padilla]

Lincoln,

Great link...I always enjoy listening to NPR.

[Keith Christopher]

Heard a pretty good story about the ongoing developments of SawStop on NPR the other day.

Here is a link to the story, you can listen to it by clicking on "Listen" near the top of the page...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4182602

Ok I read the petition and I have to say, at first I though he was doing this because he believed it was right. Now I simply think by trying to enact a law to require manufacturers to install a product that will . . . "a product" hmmmm how many products are out there for this. . . hmmmm, google it.....hmmmm... last thing we need is another law.
I like the idea of saw stop, but I don't want to be bullied into buying it.


Keith

[Chris Padilla]

Thought I'd revive this thread. Anyone have anymore new news? I am starting to see the SawStop show up in various shows on the Discovery Channel, HGTV, etc....

[Dave Wright #2]

News. Hmmm. Has it been mentioned that there have already been a couple legitimate "saves" in professional shops? First one the blade cut through the operator's fingernail and stopped when it touched his skin. Might have been hot and him sweaty, because the saw stopped without drawing blood. Second one required a Band-Aid. I haven't heard recently though. There might have been more saves. So far it looks like there are about as many operator-error misfires as saves. Pretty good ratio since a "save" saves about 100 times the cost of a misfire.

The only verified equipment-error misfire I have heard of was related to an insert wear plate that came unglued. Owners should keep an eye out for that. Probably taken care of on current production models.

[Rich Konopka]

One of the guys that hangs out on woodnet posted his personal review (http://www.just4fun.org/woodworking/tool_reviews/sawstop/) on his site. I have not seen any stories on the sawstop saving fingers. If there any stories SAW Stop should fire thier PR firm because there is not one mention of a finger save on their site or any Press releases. Maybe they should have a finger saver counter on their web site. :eek::D

[Chris Padilla]

LOL! finger saves...that is a good one. They could have a counter in a corner of their page some where.

Each save should be clickable with a picture of the (minor) cut to the appendage.

[Bill Lewis]

You know this got me to thinking, and I apologize if someone else has brought this up. I didn't have time to read all the posts yet.

I can not see the SS in either a commercial, or a school shop environment. Disgruntled employeed and school kids would be bringing hot dogs to work/school everyday. Ths cost of replacement cartridges could be prohibitive.

[Dave Wright #2]

Finger save counter...hope they're paying attention. That's a good idea. My guess is that they will pay attention to the website when the backorder list is close to gone. My impression is that it's down to 2 or 3 months. I have already shared a number of site improvement ideas with Steve Gass; better features listing, owner-oriented extensive FAQ, and accurate delivery time projection for new orders. I don't think they have a PR firm. Various parts of the business appear to have been shopped out, such as design and specification of the brake cartridge chip (appears on the subcontractor's website), but there don't seem to be any ongoing consultant relationships. Low budget...figure that won't last long if they expect to get much larger.

[Dave Wright #2]

Bill, interesting idea. I'm sure it will happen. Commercial and school shops are otherwise the exact target customer for these saws since they have the heaviest use, greatest number of inattentive and inexperienced opertors, and most to gain from reduced liability exposure. A disguntled employee could easily cause the same amount of (dollar value) damage to a conventional saw as well, and with less chance of getting caught. Brake activation is attention getting - more for the sudden silence afterward than the brake noise during. If vandal activation became a problem the business could power the saw through an employee code security switch like the ones used at the Home Depot plywood cutting stations. Brake activation while your code is in the system would look pretty bad.

[Rich Konopka]

You know this got me to thinking, and I apologize if someone else has brought this up. I didn't have time to read all the posts yet.

I can not see the SS in either a commercial, or a school shop environment. Disgruntled employeed and school kids would be bringing hot dogs to work/school everyday. Ths cost of replacement cartridges could be prohibitive.

I wish it was that harmless when disgruntled people come to work or school. It seems like disgruntled people in todays world bring automatic weapons to the work place. I think they call it going postal. And then there was Columbine.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html (http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050701/disruptor-gass.html)

Here is a recent blurb in Inc.com online magazine. Thought y'all might be interested. I think we've heard most of it but it is a fairly nice complete story line that doesn't take too long to peruse.... :)

[Chris Barton]

Uh, let see, 3 lawyers get together to form a company... can't seem to sell enough to make money on their own... Consumer Product Safety Council petition... wrongful injury lawsuit after industry doesn't adopt their product... Hmmm,

Chris

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

Capitalism at its finest??? ;)

[Carl Eyman]

Any major tool I might buy at this point in life will have a very limited life. It just isn't economically feasable to spend that much on a tool - any tool - at my age of 83. How much use will I get out of it. While it is true I still have ten fingers after 50+ year of table saw use, I am still scared of them. If I were an employer and had a table saw at my place of business, You bet your boots I'd have one.

[Jon Legalos]

FWIW, I have replaced the PM 66 on my wish list with a Sawstop. I'm not going to get either any time soon, but when I do I will be upgrading from a contractor saw.

Whoever it was (maybe the man himself?) that said the stop feature was for the rare times a mistake is made has an excellent point. None of us are above mistakes, and no safety feature replaces careful operation of the tool.

I agree with those who take exception to the initial effort on the part of Sawstop to make their equipment mandatory. I also disagree with seatbelt and helmet laws, although I think you are a moron if you don't use your seatbelt.....

For me, personally, I can imagine too well looking at the stumps of my fingers, thinking that for just another $300, or whatever....

In almost every tool I have purchased, it is the economies I regret most. I have a 10" Ryobi drill press that makes me mad just by being in the shop, and I can honestly say it works as well today as the day I bought it. I also have a couple Lie Nielsens, and not once do I remember the price tag while I have one in my hands.

[David epstein]

Any major tool I might buy at this point in life will have a very limited life. It just isn't economically feasable to spend that much on a tool - any tool - at my age of 83. How much use will I get out of it. While it is true I still have ten fingers after 50+ year of table saw use, I am still scared of them. If I were an employer and had a table saw at my place of business, You bet your boots I'd have one.

From Socrates:
I get older, I get wiser.

[Steve Jenkins]

There is a cabinet shop in the same complex my shop is in and they just purchased 6 sawstop saws. They are a production shop and have had two had accidents in the past year.
yea yea I know, training and supervision, but this is their solution and it will probably be a good one.
I know where there will be some table saws for sale shortly.

[Chris Padilla]

Do you guys think the European sliders are safer than the American table saws in general?

In other words, if SawStop made an American slider, it could well be one of the safest tools. I see Grizzly is the first to bring an "American" slider to the market (I think)....

Just some food for discussion on this topic.

[Michael Ballent]

Do you guys think the European sliders are safer than the American table saws in general?

In other words, if SawStop made an American slider, it could well be one of the safest tools. I see Grizzly is the first to bring an "American" slider to the market (I think)....

Just some food for discussion on this topic.

Actually Powermatic has Euro style sliders available right now... I have no idea how much they cost though or if they are even made in the USA... Below is the link.

http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/index.cfm?area=shop&action=detail&iid=78110

[Charlie Plesums]

Actually Powermatic has Euro style sliders available right now... I have no idea how much they cost though or if they are even made in the USA...
To my eye, that looks an awful lot like the Felder "K700 professional" with the optional overhead blade guard. (Made in Austria)

Likewise, the Grizzly looks an awful lot like a MiniMax, made by SCM Group in Italy.

A European saw won't keep you from putting your fingers in the blade, but normal operations are from beside the blade, not behind the blade (not in line for things thrown by the blade), and can routinely be performed farther from the blade - with the sliding table I can easily make cuts from the far corner of the sheet, without losing precision.

[Rick Lizek]

I'm pretty sure the Powermatic slider is made by Robland. I've heard only bad things about it so far although I haven't heard anything bad about Robland in general. I know they are considered lesser quality than Felder. Years ago Delta was selling a few Euro sliders made by Invicta. Mostly 4' travel then in the 80's they were selling a 8 or 10' foot slider made, I recall in Italy. Grizzly is many years later with sliders. I don't beleive there is such a thing as a US slider except the old Oliver, Northfield, etc and it's a totally different animal. Typically only 3' to 4' crosscut and those dreadful old rip fences. Funny thing is sliders go way back in European woodworking and the US was so slow in adapting the concept. Heck, the horizontal slot mortiser goes back to the late 50's and many folks still haven't heard about it here or they equate it with David Marks and the multi-router!

[mike lucas]

I just talked to a guy that lost a finger in a tablesaw accident. He said he would have paid double the price of the saw if he had his finger back. I'm thinking about putting one in the classroom of my store and possibly retailing it...I have to check with the powers that be and see if I can do it.


How many car/truck drivers have a wreck without a seatbelt on, get hurt, and still would never consider using a seatbelt? It`s the same with this saw. And at $2500 the saw is pretty much worthless, you still need a fence, and blade guard. You can get a Powermatic Model 66 for about $1900-$2200 and other then putting it together and getting power to it, it is ready to go, the Sawstop will cost about $2700 and soon to be $3000 for it to be ready to operate.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but it cost much to much.

[mike lucas]

Any major tool I might buy at this point in life will have a very limited life. It just isn't economically feasable to spend that much on a tool - any tool - at my age of 83. How much use will I get out of it. While it is true I still have ten fingers after 50+ year of table saw use, I am still scared of them. If I were an employer and had a table saw at my place of business, You bet your boots I'd have one.
Your still young, I know a local guy that is in his early 90`s (Maybe 93) and he building a new house :eek: He lived in a condemed home for the past 40+ years, now he decides to build new. He has more money then he could spend if he lives to be 150 years though. He alread built a 60X120X12 foot barn, a 48'X80'X10' garage all this year. :eek: I really don't understand his logic, but it`s his money. :)

[Lincoln Myers]

Some interesting videos here of the SawStop in action:

Wood Magazine SawStop Videos (http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jhtml?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/sawstop_highspeed.xml&catref=wd5)

-Linc

[Jim O'Dell]

Steve, will you let us all know when, what kind of saws, and how much when the time comes? If timing is right, I might be interested. Jim.