Granite top saws

[Mark Bolton]

Not that I am considering one but I have read a lot about the granite top saws and many of the concerns. One of my main concerns was the miter slots with no inserts.

Was in at Woodcraft and there is a brand new saw sitting on the floor and low an behold there is a blowout a bit bigger than a quarter on the infeed side of the slot. Apparently someone drew the miter gauge out the front of the saw and lowered/raised it before the washer was out. A new top will of course go with the saw.

While they say its important to remember to remove the miter gauge out the rear of the saw rather than the front I wonder how many will have to learn this the hard way. Or god forbid some freak accident/kickback against the miter gauge causes a blowout in the field of the table.

I wonder how long it will be before the tops come with a slot with a steel insert pressed/bonded in.

Mark

[george wilson]

Granite tops make me nervous. I'd prefer cast iron,personally. The miter gauge slot is always going to be a weak spot,even with a steel liner,unless the steel liner has 1/8" thick walls.

My old Dewalt table saw(they didn't make that many) weighs 600#. I have to do some tugging on the cast iron top to rotate it a few degrees for long boards to pass obstacles. I'd never want to be tugging on a granite top!!!

On jointers the cast iron fences usually have some amount of twist to them,even the old American ones. I'd come closer to accepting a granite jointer fence than a granite top,as long as I am the only one using it. I'd also only but one which I could give a personal close inspection to.

Maybe I am just too wary about granite?

[Brian Effinger]

I have had one for nearly a year, and have had no problems with the granite. My shop is a small one in the basement, and I have been using the saw for assembly, as a support for other tools (like the OSS and mini lathe) as well as a general catch-all, and I've had no chips, cracks or anything. I've thrown lumber, wrenches, hammers, etc. on it with out any worries. I've got the saw on a mobile base and have used the top to pull the saw around - I've even pushed it a little with the wheels up to get it into an exact position.

I'm sure if I beat on it, I could get it to break, but the same thing would happen to cast iron. I tore out the old cast iron sanitary lines in my house last week, and it only took a few blows with a drilling hammer to get the metal to bust up.

As for the miter slot - I use an Incra 1000SE with a large rectangular washer on the end, and am careful when I am putting it in and pulling it out of the slot. I have lifted the miter gauge slightly a few times, and the resistance of the washer reminded me to slide the gauge out of the slot. I would have to basically ignore common sense and keep pulling on the gauge really hard for the granite to break.

I'm absolutely confident that this top (with its 10 year warranty) will out last my saw.

Brian

[Bob Genovesi]

I think these granite tops offer much more than meets the eye.

These tops are man made granite and are machined glass smooth on CNC equipment. From what I've read they are very durable, stable, and won't rust. Can they be damaged, of course, but who pounds on their saws table top. I'm not saying they're indestructible because I'm certain you can break them but the bottom line is they their pluses outweigh the minuses.

I'm starting to see these on jointer's and shapers as well.

In my opinion the negative reaction is based on "it's new" and we all know that no one likes change. The only ones I've seen are black and maybe in the future other colors might become available.

[Robert Strebler]

I've had a Steel City granite saw for a few months now with no problems. I did purchase a used Unisaw once with a slightly warped table that probably would have been fine to use but drove me nuts. Cast iron also rusts.

Sure granite is not perfect, but neither is cast iron. The worst problem I could see is the blowout at the end of the miter gauge. With care that should never happen, but if it does, it won't have any effect on performance.

I love the perfectly flat top. It's like having a surface plate and a table saw all in one.

[Mark Bolton]

In my opinion the negative reaction is based on "it's new" and we all know that no one likes change.

I can see the plus' for sure, flat, and the colors may be a plus for the hobby market, but for me this has absolutely nothing to do with "new". Personally I am the type who is more than willing to throw 10 years of habbit down the drain in trade for something that simply works better.

My only concerns with these tops was fragility of the miter slot and what these tops will look like in 5 years for those who are concerned with appearance. For the miter slot, an insert would completely eliminate this. They could easily mill a proportionally bigger miter slot in the top allowing for a T shaped insert to be pressed into the slot and then milled conventionally for a precise fit.

As for appearance, being in the homebuilding business I am far too aware that granite is not a bulletproof surface. In an aggressively used kitchen environment they can show wear in short order. I have no experience with what they could look like after years of being used as a work bench as well as a TS. Many in the hobby side seem to have great concerns with the appearance of their tops. I would guess they would dull to an even matte finish.

As for the durability of cast iron and it being like sewer pipes (another post), those are two totally different types of cast iron. Its like comparing OSB with engineered sheathing. They come from the same roots but are two totally different animals. I would agree however that todays cast iron coming out of china is not that of yesteryear. The cast iron of today pales in comparison to that of 40 years ago.

Mark

[John Thompson]

There is a difference in the cast iron comparing sewer pipe to cast iron used on machines.. I agree that it two different grades. In comparing the granite used on kitchen counter-top to the grade used on the TS tops.. that is also two different grades.

The granite used for the TS comes from a quarry near the Steel City Manufacturing plant in China and is rated top grade. Any that might contain stress streaks is culled before it goes to be ground. At that point it is precision ground.

The front of the miter slot is the suseptible spot if you draw the miter bar back with extremely heavy weight on it. That slot was rigorously tested and Steel City recommends you do not pull the tip back farther than two inches from the front of the table with heavy weight on it. If I remember corresctly the foot pounds applied in testing were around 600 until the final two inches.But.. you shouldn't really do that with a cast iron slot either as cast iron is soft in characteristic. It is not steel.

I have used a granite fence on my jointer for over two years. Is it shiny and have the look of French polishing at this point. No.. but I could care less as it hasn't rusted nor chipped or cracked. I don't anticipate it could as my other cast iron tables and fences as even with very controlled casting.. it can have internal stress and crack down the road. The granite has been stress relieved for 5 million years before it got the call for a top so I'm counting on that.

Sarge..

[Paul Ryan]

Mark it sounds to me that you aren't sold on the granite idea!
I have a 3hp saw and absolutly love it. If you abuse anything you can break it. The miter slot that had the blow had obviously been abused. But steel city will still stand behind the top even if is has been abused for 10 years. The saw is slightly heavier the top is thicker than cast and absolutly flat. Many people have granite blocks for sharpening and other things. I have a table saw that I can do that with also. I don't have to deal with rust when sharpening, or rust when the dew point in the air is so high it feels like Pea soup outside. I think the granit is an excellent idea and I believe this granite is from a quarry not man made. I am currently looking for a used saw stop but one of my fears going to the saw stop is the fact that I have to get ride of my granite. I believe that steel insert would solve blow outs too but it defeats the purpose of rust free. Maybe if they went with a stainless insert? I don't mind my miter slots and are not afraid of them because I will behave myself. These tops are durable I have set hammers, wrenches and all sorts of stuff on my top. In an earlier post some one talked about granite tops in kitchens showing wear. Who uses a table saw top as a cutting board, a hot pan holder, and a food preperation area. What would happen to cast if you did that to it. Your saw would be shot in a week! Other that the saw stop, I think the granite is the best idea in years. Now if I could only get a saw stop with a granite top that would be something.

[John Thompson]

Maybe if they went with a stainless insert? Paul

The granite top does have stainless steel inserts epoxied in throughout the surface for extra re-enforcement. I am not sure why a SS insert was not dropped into the miter slot but suspect that with teh 2" wide metal bar on the end of that extra wide slot.. unless they felt it wasn't needed as nobody should pull a miter slot loaded with heavy stock all the way back to front of talbe anyway.. regardless of granite or cast iron.

Sarge..

[Dan Henry]

I do not like the washer on the end of the miter gage bar, I find I do not need the the washer as when you get the gage our of the slot far enough to need it the bar has too muck slop to make a accurate cut. With out the washer I can take the miter gage off and on the saw much easier. With out the washer the possibility of damaging the table would be minimized

Dan

[Paul Ryan]

Dan,

thats a really good idea. I do 99% of my cross cutting with a sled and since I have owned the saw I have used the miter guage about 4 times. But I don't need the extra length that bar addes either why not take off the washer.


Sarge,

I think the top is plenty thick that if the miter slot was cut to allow a SS miter insert that wouldn't cause any problems with the bar underneath. The next time you see the Box's ask them if they tested a SS miter slot in the granite. Maybe the extra cost would have been something too, but cutting that miter slot in the granite couldn't have been cheap setting up the tooling. I don't know, I just think if they worried that the miter slot was going to be the weak link maybe that SS miter slot idea came up. But you bring up a good point, only a knuckle head is going to put that much weight on the miter bar when it is at then end of its travel. That would damage cast too.

I forgot to add before. That the granite is also real nice because it is silky smooth too.

[John Thompson]

Dan,

thats a really good idea. I do 99% of my cross cutting with a sled and since I have owned the saw I have used the miter guage about 4 times. But I don't need the extra length that bar addes either why not take off the washer.


Sarge,

I think the top is plenty thick that if the miter slot was cut to allow a SS miter insert that wouldn't cause any problems with the bar underneath. The next time you see the Box's ask them if they tested a SS miter slot in the granite. Maybe the extra cost would have been something too, but cutting that miter slot in the granite couldn't have been cheap setting up the tooling. I don't know, I just think if they worried that the miter slot was going to be the weak link maybe that SS miter slot idea came up. But you bring up a good point, only a knuckle head is going to put that much weight on the miter bar when it is at then end of its travel. That would damage cast too.

I forgot to add before. That the granite is also real nice because it is silky smooth too.

I've got shop time and errand running tomorrow Paul.. but I will try to take a few minutes to ask if all goes well. If not.. next time I make contact on the land line. I will also ask Jim Box (over the techical department) approximately how many inserts have popped they are aware of. I have a feeling it is few.. very few.. as someone who has that saw is most likely smart enough not to do what we referred to on with-drawalf?

But.. I really don't know at this point. What I do know is these are "tool guys" and if a problem occurred that would create warranty after warranty.. they would have already fixed it. The new cutter-heads on the jointer introduced in August got put in a holding pattern as there was an indexing problem with the knives. When it was fixed and suitable... then and only then was it released to dealers.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Jeff Willard]

I never did understand the washer anyway.:confused: First thing I do with a miter gauge is remove the washer and chuck it away.

[Rod Sheridan]

The cast iron of today pales in comparison to that of 40 years ago.

Mark

Mark, although I agreed with the other items in your post, your assertion that today's cast iron is inferior is not true.

My General equipment is made with Meehanite castings, properly seasoned and machined.

My most recent purchase, a Hammer A3-31 also has excellent cast iron castings and machining.

You are correct that much of the Chinese equipment does not have the same quality as the General etc, however that's a function of price, not country of origin.

There are still machinery companies that produce high grade machines, it's just that most people don't purchase them.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. My Hammer has an extruded hollow section aluminum fence, it's extremely flat and rigid, while being much lighter than a cast iron or granite fence.

I guess it'll be another 20 years before I have long term ownership information, however the aluminum may well turn out to be the winner.

[Bill White]

There is a difference in the cast iron comparing sewer pipe to cast iron used on machines.. I agree that it two different grades. In comparing the granite used on kitchen counter-top to the grade used on the TS tops.. that is also two different grades.

The granite used for the TS comes from a quarry near the Steel City Manufacturing plant in China and is rated top grade. Any that might contain stress streaks is culled before it goes to be ground. At that point it is precision ground.

The front of the miter slot is the suseptible spot if you draw the miter bar back with extremely heavy weight on it. That slot was rigorously tested and Steel City recommends you do not pull the tip back farther than two inches from the front of the table with heavy weight on it. If I remember corresctly the foot pounds applied in testing were around 600 until the final two inches.But.. you shouldn't really do that with a cast iron slot either as cast iron is soft in characteristic. It is not steel.

I have used a granite fence on my jointer for over two years. Is it shiny and have the look of French polishing at this point. No.. but I could care less as it hasn't rusted nor chipped or cracked. I don't anticipate it could as my other cast iron tables and fences as even with very controlled casting.. it can have internal stress and crack down the road. The granite has been stress relieved for 5 million years before it got the call for a top so I'm counting on that.

Sarge..

One post says that the tops are man made, this one says that they are quarried (raw material).
I have sold literally tons of granite countertops in the cabinet business. Always cautioned the new owners about "care and feeding" of granite, and the fact that there was no warranty on natural stone, but a man made granite composite (like some kitchen sink s-Blanco brand) is a totally different animal. Granite surface plates in the machine shop? Yep! 4"+ thick? Solid!!! Table saw tops, band saw wheels?? Not in my future...
Bill:p

[Paul Ryan]

Sarge,

I was just wondering what the designers at SCTW had thought about when deciding what to do about the miter slot. It is no hurry. I was more curous than anything. I dont expect to ever have any problems with my top or miter slot. If I use my head. I don't know how often you speak with them, but the next time bring it up.

[Mark Bolton]

your assertion that today's cast iron is inferior is not true.

Agreed, I should have worded it differently. While there are manufacturers who are going the extra mile I am concerned that it will become harder and harder (and likely more and more costly) for the few companies that are concerned with this type of thing to hold out.

It seems we have been on a 15 year slide with regards to tool quality. Perhaps its just the market changing, I dont know. But I have been very concerned about it for perhaps the last 12.

I look at something like the granite tops to be part of an evolution in the tool industry. Perhaps the end will be some new composite material or man made/solid surface. Who knows. I have no issue with aluminum, its all over my shop.

Mark

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm both convinced and not convinced that quality tools will be hard to get in the future.

Delta previously made nice stuff in America, now it's second rate and made offshore.

General still manufacture in Canada, and it's top tier equipment. They also have an imported from Taiwan line, called General International.

Felder/Minimax/Hammer etc continue to produce top level machines that are of excellent quality, as well as being of superior design and performance/capacity.

Le Valley, Lie Neilson etc produce hand tools that are better than anything available previously, and make them for the hobby market.

You are correct though, we've sacrificed quality for cost in many of our purchases, and many people are happy with that choice.

Me, I like nice, well made stuff, after all just look at the bike in my avatar........Oldie but goody..........Regards, Rod.

[Paul Ryan]

Rod,

I think you are right in saying that some tools are getting cheaper these days. But what we need to remember now is that I think there are more choices avaiable today. We have table saws from a cheap unknown brand to the top tier saws. To say that a powermatic or a sawstop that is produced over seas is inferier quality because it is not manufactured on N. American soil is kind of prejudice. Now don't get me wrong I wish all of the tools that were made overseas were made in this country becuase that keeps jobs here. But our economy has pushed some of that to happen. Because alot of us shop by price not by quality or service. The job thing is a whole different can of worms that should be in the off topic forum. But I think many believe that however unfortuate it is that a powermatic or saw stop are made over seas, that the quality is ever bit as good as the few tools that are made here. You get what you pay for. I dont fault anyone for buying a grizzly, sctw. Many, many shops use those tools and make a good living using them. I know that you didn't mean to imply that cheaper tools are not up to the challenge. But I just think that there are so many choices for tools out there. Lets just hope in the future there companies that make exceptional quality tools will find a way to stay in business. I am sure that is one of the reasons for the general international line because they couldn't afford to stay in business with their premium line only. I like good tools too but I have no reason to believe that a graite topped steel city table saw won't be around as long a general 650. Both saws will eventually need service of some sort. If steel city stays in business I believe their saws will last. I firmly believe that in 20 years if you take my graite top saw and compare it to a cast iron topped saw it will be in better shape and more appealing becase the elements will not effect as much. Granite may not be the answer but I think it is a step in the right direction. I hope no one takes this the wrong way I don't mean too start a fight. I am a firm believer that more choices low price to high prices make products better in the future because we learn what works and what can be improved on.

[hank dekeyser]

Hmmmmm I wonder how a granite top would have held up after bouncing out the back of my truck and skating down the pavement on its top ??? Granted this was a once in a lifetime "accident" BUt riddle this

My Uni-Saw started its life some 40plus years ago in a high school wood shop. Upon retirement from high school I purchased said saw and strapped it in the back of my truck - strap broke going around a corner, saw toppled out and skidded for about 20 feet.(on its face) We threw it back in the truck, unloaded it, and after adjusting everything, belt sanded the top, then orbital w/ 220. Yup it's got a big battle scar, but it's still flat, didnt crack, and best of all, I have no reason to replace it because it's paid for, parts are available and there's not much worse that could ever happen to it. Let's see your BIG $$$$ granite top beat that !

I will never own a granite top anything -period - what is this - the flinstones ? As long as there are "hobbyists" that have more money than brains,(and more concerned about what the machine looks like than what they can actually build with it) granite tops and fancy hoo haas and dooo dads and other useless crap will continue to flood the market. (no offense, so too bad if I did)





When I die I have specific instructions to place me on top of my saw, and torch the entire shop-

[John Thompson]

One post says that the tops are man made, this one says that they are quarried (raw material).
I have sold literally tons of granite countertops in the cabinet business. Always cautioned the new owners about "care and feeding" of granite, and the fact that there was no warranty on natural stone, but a man made granite composite (like some kitchen sink s-Blanco brand) is a totally different animal. Granite surface plates in the machine shop? Yep! 4"+ thick? Solid!!! Table saw tops, band saw wheels?? Not in my future...
Bill:p

It's quarried black granite about 2" thick with stainless steel re-enforcement rods expoxied in, Bill. The quote about man-made is in-correct. The granite wheel is solid quarried granite also. All granite with the exception of the lathe at this moment carries a 10 Year Warranty with 5 Years on the machine. Not for everyone and no one has been forced to purchase a granite topped machine to my knowledge. :>)

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

Sarge,

I was just wondering what the designers at SCTW had thought about when deciding what to do about the miter slot. It is no hurry. I was more curous than anything. I dont expect to ever have any problems with my top or miter slot. If I use my head. I don't know how often you speak with them, but the next time bring it up.

I spoke with Jim Box today and found out some interesting things. I won't mention them yet as I suggested he run some test with the miter slot on one of the tops that was damaged in shipping on the outer corner that is back in holding waiting for a freight claim to be paid. He is going to get a picture or two and get back probably tomorrow after the test we spoke about.

I'll post the info and pictures at the same time..

Sarge..

[Chip Lindley]

[quote=Paul Ryan;1054527]...But steel city will still stand behind the top even if is has been abused for 10 years."

...Who uses a table saw top as a cutting board, a hot pan holder, and a food preperation area.quote]

Well....Steel City may NOT be in business 10 years from now. Remains to be seen! "guaranteed for life" always has ramifications. SC is one of the *newer* import machinery biz's. Could granite be a kneejerk reaction to the inability to get decent cast iron tops cheaply enough from already-stressed China factorys, when the quarry is right next door??

In 35 years of woodworking I have used my TS top for many many things. (not food preparation!) Even an *anvil* at times. (was an old Crapsman, not my *baby* PM66) In a crowded shop, the TS seems *always* to be a nice flat surface to *work* on. CI has some mallability. Granite does not. Thus, the blowout of miter slots. Granite cannot be drilled and tapped, so forget a power feeder. Time will tell if this is passing fad or *new* technology! OR... if we are just regressing! From the Iron Age back to the Stone Age? Hmmm....

[Stephan Postmus]

Hank your more money then brains comment seems a little extreme. I actually have a granite top saw that I got from the wood working machinery dealer here in town. I never wanted the granite top but with a woodworking show special and the owners paying the taxes (13%) I saved some serious coin. I couldn't get the cast iron because all he had was the granite top for the show.

I am getting to like the top although I miss being able to use my magnetic featherboard but at the same time I have learned to work around that. The granite top is completely flat and that is great.

So your unisaw survived falling off the back of your pickup, but I'm willing to bet if it happened again the results may vary. I have read on another forum about a member bring his equipment home and getting in an accident and damaging his equipment. Just look at the number of postings here lately complaining of shipping damage. Most of them had cast iron parts. By the way the granite tops on the saws are only $50 more. By buying the show special saw with a granite top I actually saved money and it was less money then ordering a cast iron saw.

It is all about what is best for the buyer and Steel City is great job in finding uses for other materials. Just like Rod said about his fence being aluminum and it works great. Cast iron can be damaged just like everything else.

Stephan

[george wilson]

I am sure that the cast iron top surving the accident was lucky. My own Dewalt table saw was new in 1963,and still looks good on the top. I,too,doubt the staying power of these new companies. It seems impossible to get parts for any machine over 3 years old. They don't even recognize their own models. I've had several Taiwan and a few Chinese machines.While they might be fairly good buys,just prepare not to get new parts in a few years.

I'm talking about good Asian lathes,like Sharp. This isn't a machinist's forum,but Sharp is a good brand,much better than Grizzly!! No parts.

So,I guess my thought is: if the top gets broken,you might be paying very big bucks to get a custom counter top installer to grind out a new top,and that doesn't include drilling holes and putting in threaded inserts,or milling miter slots.

What about broken cast iron tops? I've never seen one,but,please,don't use it for an anvil!!! I saw a Rigid contractor's saw at Home Depot . It's cast iron top seemed about half the thickness of mine.

[Matt Benton]

I'm not so sure that a given degree/type of abuse will have the same affect on CI as it will on granite, as a few posters have implied. The miter slot issue is a perfect example. Be extra careful and with a (very) little luck, you should be able to enjoy the benefits of granite with no ill effect. If, however, something falls on that table, or you bump it into your jointer while moving it around, you may end up reaching for the epoxy...

I also get the impression from some that granite tops are a solution to a real problem, but what is the problem. I can see that if you are in a high humidity area, the rust issue can be a real PITA, but what percentage of CI tables on the planet < 20 years old aren't flat enough for woodworking?

[george wilson]

I was reading an ad for granite tops a few days ago. They were stated to be .001" to .002" flat. Cast iron tops are that accurate. The cast iron tables of the new Grizzly jointer we bought before I left Williamsburg,taken singly,were MUCH flatter than that. Taken together,gap and all,they were .001" out. I have the special flaked and scraped straight edges to really check those type of things.

[Clifford Mescher]

More money then brains? Quite an extreme assumption on anybody's part. Certain people who live in high humidity climates could benefit from granite top.
Don't know how much brains I have but I don't have alot of money. That will not stop me from considering a table saw with a granite top. Clifford

[John Thompson]

I don't have the results back on the test Jim Box was going to try to do today. They have been slammed with phone calls this week and are busy. So.. I will post them when I get them but... I will let those that were interested what I found out yesterday on the miter slot..

First... for All those that have taken their metal washer off.. Steel City replaced the metal washer with a plastic washer. The new machines should have that and all machines sitting on showroom floors that had the metal washer at distributors.. their Steel City rep should have delivered the new plastic washers to them to make the change.

For All of those that have taken the metal washer off of a previously purchased machine with it... you can call 1-877-724-8665 with your serial number in hand and request one. Jim has over 300 in stock just for that purpose. Technical will send you one at no charge of course.

Regarding the new plastic washer.. I was told that it eliminated the tear-out if you jerked that miter bar back and was easy to remove. But.. Jim wanted to test on an end damaged top and get more pictures which I mentioned I will post when I get them.

As far as Damage to granite top machines in the last 2 1/2 years since they have been marketed. There have been 12 with tops damaged in shipment from freight carriers. The majority of those were on a corner of the top when not handled carefully or a fork-lift ran into a corner. All have been replaced by warranty.

As far as Damage to miter slots which has been discussed. There has been 4 tops replaced and all damage was incurred sitting on a Show-room floor by customers who decided to see just how much pressure they could apply while the bar was pulled out all the way. It wasn't there machine so they decided to take "field testing" on someone else's to a new level. All those tops have or will be replaced under warranty.

Concerning the stainles steel miter track epoxied to the groove in the granite top. That idea was considered and still is an option but they wanted to try the new plastic washer which seems to have eliminated the need so far. In order to add a SS track they would have to disturb the current design to get the track on board but the plastic washer won't. A simple replacement is all that is necessary.

So.. hope that helps with anyone considering and to anyone that might already have the granite top with the metal washer issue.

And I can't say for sure but my guess (it is just my opinion and not anything SC has said) would be that anyone that intends to drop a Steel City TS off the back of a pick-up.. let it skid for 20' to test the durability of the saw... Steel City would not encourage you to do that. Perhaps some other tool manufacturer would but I have my doubts.

For that matter.. most manufacturers would probably Insist you purchase from someone else. :)

As far as Steel City not being around for 10 years.. someone please name the companies that they can garauntee will. Trump Casino's filed for bank-ruptcy yesterday. GM and Chrysler says "more" bail-out to save us. I can go on and on but the fact is.. no company is exempt from the current down-turn in the economy. So.. personally I would suggest you get a machine from a company you know for a fact will be around. Reality is reality with speculation pushed aside.

Sarge..

[Matt Benton]

I've been to two Woodcrafts in my area, both have granite TS's, and both had multiple chips in the tops, in different places. Granted, they were displays, but that was enough for me.

I have no problem with anyone supporting the idea of granite TS top. The problem I have is exaggerating the "shortcomings" of CI in the process....

[John Thompson]

I've been to two Woodcrafts in my area, both have granite TS's, and both had multiple chips in the tops, in different places. Granted, they were displays, but that was enough for me.

I have no problem with anyone supporting the idea of granite TS top. The problem I have is exaggerating the "shortcomings" of CI in the process....

You have a point, Matt. But I think the "short-comings" of granite is getting about the same treatment. Someone will mention that they have one and have had no problem and 4 post will drown that out with short-comings but so far I have not seen anyone with one do the drowning.

As far as seeing two Woodcrafts in your area that had saws on display with multiple chips.. I have seen many display saws or machines basically covered with rust specs. When I worked at IWF demonstrating last August.. we would wipe the machines about twice a day with WD-40 as you can imagine how many finge-prints get put on a saw at a Show as large as that. Rust doesn't take long on cast iron as I say that from having my son sit a sweaty glass on the table for about 6 minutes before I caught it.

So.. I would take display models for what they are.. display models and in most cases preventive maintenance that is required with any machine just doesn't seem to get done in some cases by employee's much less a customer who doesn't value it as his machine.

Sarge..

[Paul Ryan]

I don't now if granite is the answer for anything. I do know that 5 years ago there wasn't a basically maintenace free top on a table saw. That is what attracted me to it. I do live in a climate with extremly high humidity at times. It is a real pain to clean one tool after another. Top coats can only do so much. I wasn't concerned about the flatness(but it is a nice feature), and certainly wasn't a looks thing(personally I think a cast top looks nicer WHEN NEW) But after time has taken its toll, unless this granite top is abused, it will look the same 5 million years from now as it does right now. You cannot say that about cast. Cast tops that are taken care of look great 20 years old. But they still do show there age. My granite puchase was due to the maintenance free aspect. I put new siding on my house 2 years ago I chose main. free, as well as sofits and facia. Granite maybe more tempramental than cast. But it depends on the owner, I spent $1400 buck and will not abuse it. It is inteneded to be used, bumping wood into it wont hurt it, running it into your car wont hurt it, a tough collison with a jointer probably will but the jointer wont look so good either. There have been plenty of cast tools damaged by shippers latly. Take it for what you will it is a nice tool and properly used it wont be a problem. It aint a baby you dont have to coddle. It use it as you would any table saw, but you dont have to worry about rust or pits.

[Jim Solomon]

I've been to two Woodcrafts in my area, both have granite TS's, and both had multiple chips in the tops, in different places. Granted, they were displays, but that was enough for me.

I have no problem with anyone supporting the idea of granite TS top. The problem I have is exaggerating the "shortcomings" of CI in the process....
I feel the same Matt. When I first saw these tops I wrote them off as a fad doomed to breaks chips etc. I thought about posting but had second thoughts. I knew my first impression was prejudiced, not from actual use but from my lack of knowledge of this new tool surface. (Albiet not granite).

After giving it more thought, I put my thoughts back in my head until more use of this surface where reported and I actually knew how it was made. After reading all the posts I am glad I did as I would most certainly have been embarrassed by the post I would have made upon first impression of this material.

I knew it would not take long for people to start posting on here about their new tops and any shortcomings they might have. I value those opinions generally more then manufacturers claims. I now have a different perspective on this material, a lot less prejudiced then my first impression.

The main fault I get from these types of posts is that they seem (to me) to deteriorate into "fanboy" types of posts. My Chevy is better than your Ford, My PS3 is better than your X-Box, My brand X is better than your brand Z, etc. etc. etc. Then I read some posts about only idiots, klutzes, morons would ever drop something on their tool surface, would ever bump their jointer into their tops, etc. That alone almost caused me not to reply. I surely fit into that catagory. I have bumped into my machines- a lot- have dropped things on them, non intentionaly but none the less still bumped, dropped etc. It caused me to think the compliments I received on my work must surely had been made to save me embarrasment of their ture thoughts.

Now that John had explained the plastic washer being used on the MB, that makes perfect sense. Usually it is the simpler solution that works out best. As far as chips versus dents. I dropped a ballpein hammer on my PM66 top ( one of my many klutzy, idiotic things I do) and put a pea sized dent in it. Had the same thing happened to the granite a chip most likey would have been the outcome. While some JB weld and judicious sanding cured the CI top; I have no doubt that I could mix black expoxy and probably fixed the granite with less notice then the CI.

If I where in the market for a new tool that offered these tops I have went from complete dismissal of them to an eager acceptance of them.
Jim

[Chip Lindley]

Eeesn't theese a Great Cauntry?? We have a choice of tools to spend our hard-earned $$ on! There is sometimes a *better mousetrap* and there is sometimes an *Edsel.* I will never see it, but one day in the future there may be an *Old Granite* following same as there are *Old Arn* diciples today!

[george wilson]

With a name like CHIP,you'd better stay away from granite!!!

[Chip Lindley]

WTG George! WTG!

[Josiah Bartlett]

For those of you that like miter gauge washers, why not just replace your washer with a plastic or nylon one? Then it will still provide a solid hold down but it should break before the table top if you accidentally abuse it.

I don't use the washer on my miter gauge but I do use it on my tenon gauge. It prevents me from accidental alignment problems.

[John Thompson]

For those of you that like miter gauge washers, why not just replace your washer with a plastic or nylon one? Then it will still provide a solid hold down but it should break before the table top if you accidentally abuse it.

I don't use the washer on my miter gauge but I do use it on my tenon gauge. It prevents me from accidental alignment problems.

That's an excellent idea Josiah but.. I believe you missed my post stating that Steel City has already done that on the newer saws.. their reps have taken the new plastic washer to the distributors to replace on the saws that were inventory. And for those that had purchased the saw before the recent update... they can call Steel City Technical department to have one sent out at no charge to them. Just have your serial number of the saw when you call.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Charlton Wang]

While I think SteelCity provides a service and warranty for their granite tops second to none (Ridgid is the only other party that has a granite-topped tool), I believe the miter slots on the granite tops is/has changed to be a straight routed channel without the T (this is evident in the newest "cheap" granite-top tablesaw). The reason, I was told, was exactly because the ends of the T-slots were getting chipped by the mitre gauge.

I still think the granite top is a fantastic idea but I'd just thought I'd throw that out there for consumption.

[John Thompson]

While I think SteelCity provides a service and warranty for their granite tops second to none (Ridgid is the only other party that has a granite-topped tool), I believe the miter slots on the granite tops is/has changed to be a straight routed channel without the T (this is evident in the newest "cheap" granite-top tablesaw). The reason, I was told, was exactly because the ends of the T-slots were getting chipped by the mitre gauge.

I still think the granite top is a fantastic idea but I'd just thought I'd throw that out there for consumption.

The Ridgid granite saw is made in the Steel City factory as TTI which is the parent group of Home Depot signed a licensing agreement with them but the warranty will be strickly Ridgid with SC technical backling. I cannot comment on the straight groove at this point as I have not physically seen the Ridgid TS yet..

Sarge..