Gramercy Saw Handle Maker's Rasp

[Peter Bell]

Hi Guys, I am from OZ and have just become interested in making hand tools like Dovetail Saws etc.

We are quite limited in what is available here and it is a bit like having one arm tied behind one's back and going to war with only a half quiver of arrows.

I just noticed on a UK sit that Gramercy might have what I am looking for the special curved, teeth on the concave side rasp.

Is Gramercy an American brand or UK. If it is made in the USA can you tell me some stockists. I have googled it and it does not give much info.

Thanks

Peter

[Alan DuBoff]

Peter,

The Gramercy brand is the name that Tools For Working Wood (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/) uses for their tool line. They are located in NY, USA. Great service and I'm sure they ship internationally.

Here's the link to the rasp your looking for (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=GT-SHRASP.XX&Category_Code=TRR).

Great rasp, I use it quite a bit! The rifflers (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-RRSET3&Category_Code=TRR) are useful also, I have those and use them a lot as well.

[Robert Rozaieski]

The saw maker's rasp isn't really needed for open handled saws like smaller dovetail saws but for closed handles I can see where it might be helpful. I don't use one and have made both open and closed handle so it's not necessary but you need to be more careful working the insided of closed handles if you don't use one.

[george wilson]

Peter,you can bend your own rasps,or files if you wish. I do it whenever needed. I use PBC No-Scale from Brownell's Gunsmith Supply,in Iowa to protect the teeth from getting their tips burned off. Here's an old concoction that also works,that I actually have used several times: Take a cup of white flour,add a teaspoon of yeast,and 1/4 teaspoon of salt. Add enough water to make it into a sort of thickish pancake batter. Paint this heavily upon the file or rasp you wish to bend.

Heat the rasp up to an orange heat,and bend it by placing it between 2 upright wooden dowels about 1/2" apart,drilled firmly into a block of hardwood. Make this dowel jig good and strong. Though the rasp is orange hot,it still takes some effort to bend.

When you heat up the rasp,the batter coating will turn black,and bubble up,and smell of burned bread,but it will keep the teeth from being exposed to the flame. The wooden dowels will keep the very soft teeth from being squashed when bending.

Work quickly so as to lose little heat when bending.When bent,reheat the rasp to orange,and quench in cool,but not ice cold water. Use a bucket full of water. The quench needs to be big enough to not be heated by the rasp,or it won't harden.

The burned black crust should largely fly off when quenching. What remains can be carefully brushed off. The surface of the rasp will be a clean,gray like a new file,with some slight mottling of darker areas. That's o.k.. The rasp should be file hard,but it will be actually TOO hard,and have little mechanical strength,like glass. You must draw the temper just a bit to give the rasp some mechanical strength,so the teeth won't break off. Place the rasp in a kitchen oven,and bake it at 225 degrees for at least an hour. NO HOTTER. Kitchen ovens can run 75 degrees off of true reading. If I use mine,I place a high temperature thermometer good for 1000 degrees in the oven to get a true idea of the temperature.

[David Keller NC]

"Take a cup of white flour,add a teaspoon of yeast,and 1/4 teaspoon of salt."

Ha! George, as someone that bakes all of his own bread, that's just a recipe for same. Pretty sure you can leave out the yeast, and I would definitely suggest leaving out the salt. The chlorides in table salt will pit steel, particularly if someone coats their metal with the mixture and then leaves it for a day or two before they get around to doing the heating/bending.

[george wilson]

The recipe is an old one that I have used,David. The yeast does help stick the flour together so it doesn't just fall off. Not personally sure about the salt,but I do not recommend leaving the mixture on for any length of time,with the water. Why would anyone leave it on for days? I use it as soon as it is put onto the tool. Obviously salt corrodes steel,but I never had a problem with this recipe. You rinse it off right away. You need to try it yourself,really,before making judgements. Don't you think that would be reasonable? No harshness intended.Don't take it as such. I've valued your input. I've used it since 1974.

Mind you,I did say there was a small amount of mottling. My personal preference is the PBC no scale.He might not be able to get it down there,or wait and pay a lot for shipping.

In the 19th.C.,Stubbs,one of the premier file makers in England,used "beer leavings" to protect his file teeth in the same way. It was available,cheap,and effective. That is what my posting was trying to be,to someone far away from the convenience of products we have here.

I had a friend who lived in Australia for 2 years. He couldn't get a long list of things we have available here. When Chris Vesper,the Australian toolmaker visited my shop,he told me he was seeing things he'd never seen before in Australia.

[Peter Bell]

Thank you all for giving so much helpful information. I appreciate that you understand where I am coming from and some of the logistic problems we have here.

I am trying to think outside the box we are in here but do not want to spend a lot on something just to make at most six or so saw handles. But, if it is the difference between a good job and a so, so then I will spend the money as I see the saws as being a good gift..

I also am making some Awls and marking knife handles that I have turned but would like to differ the style like a carved handle. I have also just made a traditional mallet with a carved handle to fit the hand rather then a piece of 1 1/2 inch by 1 1/2 inch wood.

I have purchased 12 saw nuts from Mike Wenzloff, and a few of us are ordering some 1095 , 20 thousandth of an inch tool steel from the US and we have ordered the brass backing from Australia.

It appears that even the saw blade material is not available in Australia. If it is not made in China then it most likely is not available here.

It is a real race to the bottom as far as quality goes since they let the Accountants in to the tool shop.

Thanks and appreciate your help.

Peter.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Thank you all for giving so much helpful information. I appreciate that you understand where I am coming from and some of the logistic problems we have here.

I am trying to think outside the box we are in here but do not want to spend a lot on something just to make at most six or so saw handles. But, if it is the difference between a good job and a so, so then I will spend the money as I see the saws as being a good gift..

I also am making some Awls and marking knife handles that I have turned but would like to differ the style like a carved handle. I have also just made a traditional mallet with a carved handle to fit the hand rather then a piece of 1 1/2 inch by 1 1/2 inch wood.

I have purchased 12 saw nuts from Mike Wenzloff, and a few of us are ordering some 1095 , 20 thousandth of an inch tool steel from the US and we have ordered the brass backing from Australia.

It appears that even the saw blade material is not available in Australia. If it is not made in China then it most likely is not available here.

It is a real race to the bottom as far as quality goes since they let the Accountants in to the tool shop.

Thanks and appreciate your help.

Peter.


The saw blade material is most probably available locally but it won't be called 1095. that a US designation, There is an ISO definition but I don't know what it is. Someone will stock it as it's basicially shim stock

[David Keller NC]

"You rinse it off right away. You need to try it yourself,really,before making judgements. Don't you think that would be reasonable? No harshness intended.Don't take it as such. I've valued your input. I've used it since 1974."

George - Didn't take it that way. I tend to analyze things in the way of Christopher Schwarz - I look at the old recipes/ways and apply analytical thinking to it. Most of the lore checks out - some doesn't. And I do plan on trying the general method, as I have a need to bend a triangular file to re-file the slot on the back of some poorly-made sheffield plow irons. The idea seems sound - add an organic, sticky mixture to the surface to prevent oxygen from overly decarburizing the teeth of the file.

I'm also a baker (amateur, obviously), though, and I can tell you that flour contains gluten, and if a flour/mixture is allowed to stand for about 1/2 hour so that the gluten gets sufficiently hydrated, it's sticky as all get out. No yeast required. :)

[Peter Bell]

The saw blade material is most probably available locally but it won't be called 1095. that a US designation, There is an ISO definition but I don't know what it is. Someone will stock it as it's basicially shim stock


Joel, I wish you are right. I am just a beginner but a few people I am following are much smarter and more involved in this. We have been looking for some local supplies but to no avail.

One, is a Professor of Engineering and is a hands on person too. Another has this site www.backsaw.net and has contacts all over the world. We can get close but not in 20 thousandth's of an inch.

if you have some tips, please let me know as I will follow through.

Thanks

Peter

[george wilson]

Glad you are o.k. with my reply,David. I have enjoyed exchanging info with you. Yes,the Bookbinder's Shop uses glue made of cooked flour to release the gluten. I have not tried cooking the flour.It seems simpler and less trouble to just use the yeast. Then,I don't have pans to clean out. My wife first worked in the bookbinder's shop when she came here. Later on,ran the darkroom in Audio Visual.

I have tried MANY old varnish recipes.I'll be the very first to admit that old recipes can be total hogwash. So can the Diderot Encyclopedia. The old craftsmen did not want to give out trade secrets. They thought Diderot was crazy.No intellectual ,except industrial spies like Remour(sp?),had come around asking questions.

[george wilson]

Peter,be careful.There is also low carbon shim stock. The spring steel stock is usually blue,though I believe it can also be had bright.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Joel, I wish you are right. I am just a beginner but a few people I am following are much smarter and more involved in this. We have been looking for some local supplies but to no avail.

One, is a Professor of Engineering and is a hands on person too. Another has this site www.backsaw.net and has contacts all over the world. We can get close but not in 20 thousandth's of an inch.

if you have some tips, please let me know as I will follow through.

Thanks

Peter

I'm curious in Australia if you need a die, a couple of taps, any machine tool part who do you call? In the US we have (just to name 2 MSCdirect and McMaster. ) 1095 shim stock is a pretty common machine toolshop thing to have around so I would first contact every machine shop supplier and ask them. Then I would call up a few steel importers and ask them the same question. THey obviously won't sell to you but somebody will be sympathetic and give you the name of a retailer if such a thing exists in the country. And I'm not saying it has to - but certainly you can get it from the US pretty easily.

[Ray Gardiner]

I'm curious in Australia if you need a die, a couple of taps, any machine tool part who do you call? In the US we have (just to name 2 MSCdirect and McMaster. ) 1095 shim stock is a pretty common machine toolshop thing to have around so I would first contact every machine shop supplier and ask them. Then I would call up a few steel importers and ask them the same question. THey obviously won't sell to you but somebody will be sympathetic and give you the name of a retailer if such a thing exists in the country. And I'm not saying it has to - but certainly you can get it from the US pretty easily.

Hi Joel,

Peter is alluding to a group purchase I (and others) are organizing.

Thanks for the tip regarding machine tool suppliers, that will be worth following up, thanks. I have been able to find 1070 locally but would really prefer 1095.

For anyone interested here is a site with International equivalents for steel strip. http://www.steelstrip.co.uk/international_equivalents2.htm it looks as though the nearest to SAE 1095 is BS1449 CS95.

We are following up a very generous offer from Mike Wenzloff to send us some 1095 bright finished coil. But a local supplier would be good to have as well.

Thanks for the tip.

Regards
Ray

[Alan DuBoff]

But, if it is the difference between a good job and a so, so then I will spend the money as I see the saws as being a good gift..
I wouldn't say it is needed, plenty of fine handles have been produced with only the use of a Nicholson rasp, and I have done one handle like that myself.

Like anything, having more rasps is better, IMO.

There are some great french cut rasps that "The Best Things" sells, I got a couple of those recently and they are excellent. Do you need them? Of course not. Do they work better? For me they do.

I like the saw handle makers rasp, it works well for me, but I have heard others that were not as thrilled with them, so you would need to try it for yourself. I will say that the old course model that used to be sold doesn't work well for me, but the fine does, and that is what is available. The Auriou are available but the shipping is a killer now, but the other French rasps that The Best Things sells are quite good.

You could shape a handle with a 4-in-1 rasp, if you had to...

[Kevin Brenton]

The recipe is an old one that I have used,David. The yeast does help stick the flour together so it doesn't just fall off. Not personally sure about the salt,but I do not recommend leaving the mixture on for any length of time,with the water. Why would anyone leave it on for days? I use it as soon as it is put onto the tool. Obviously salt corrodes steel,but I never had a problem with this recipe. You rinse it off right away. You need to try it yourself,really,before making judgements. Don't you think that would be reasonable? No harshness intended.Don't take it as such. I've valued your input. I've used it since 1974.

Mind you,I did say there was a small amount of mottling. My personal preference is the PBC no scale.He might not be able to get it down there,or wait and pay a lot for shipping.

In the 19th.C.,Stubbs,one of the premier file makers in England,used "beer leavings" to protect his file teeth in the same way. It was available,cheap,and effective. That is what my posting was trying to be,to someone far away from the convenience of products we have here.

I had a friend who lived in Australia for 2 years. He couldn't get a long list of things we have available here. When Chris Vesper,the Australian toolmaker visited my shop,he told me he was seeing things he'd never seen before in Australia.

Thanks George for the tip on bending rasps .I was contemplating how to bend one of the Nicholsons myself to make a curved rasp .With the advice given here I will now attempt it and try and make one .


Problem here in Australia is the size of the market and the demand for the product .
We don't have the population anywhere near the US and the number of amateur or hobby wood workers is low compared to your country .

A lot of retailers assume that they know what the customer wants and when he asks for something out of the ordinary , most times all you get is "Duh" or a shoulder shrug or "we dont stock that because no one buys them." or " we cant get them " or 'Never seen those"
The days of high quality specialised tools are gone ,at least here in Australia ,with a few big hardware chains forcing the smaller speciality shops to the wall.
Then the big chains stock cheap garbage and that is what you are expected to buy.
I have been trying to buy brad point drills , the employees in the stores I have access to have never heard of them .
There are only two Nicholson rasps (10" and a 7") available here in OZ both are so coarse ,you could chip the armour off an Abrahms tank with them.
Great for removing wood really fast but a hell of a finish .So I use 1/2 bastard cut round metal files as fine rasps for finer finishes.
The other option is to spend up big and get the ones on offer from Gramercy and Aurio
Whilst I think the Gramercy one is a reasonable price the Aussie dollar is down and the shipping is usually very high from the US which makes one rasp a major purchase.But then again it's a tool that will last for along time if looked after.

More and more I'm looking to the US for tools and products that are unavailable here just wish our dollar was equal to yours.

Kev.

[David Keller NC]

"Yes,the Bookbinder's Shop uses glue made of cooked flour to release the gluten. I have not tried cooking the flour.It seems simpler and less trouble to just use the yeast. Then,I don't have pans to clean out. My wife first worked in the bookbinder's shop when she came here. Later on,ran the darkroom in Audio Visual."

George - Just from a purely speculative viewpoint, the recipe you cited is pretty much the recipe for dough. It'd make perfect sense that the old guys wanted something cheap and usable, so they walked down to the local baker's (or even their own kitchen - as I understand it, baking bread was a daily occurence before the 20th century) and got the leftover scraps that would've otherwise been fed to the hogs. What probably happened is that the recipe was written down for what was in the dough, and it got passed down that way.

By the way - you don't need to cook flour and water to release the gluten - just soaking it will do the trick. Just mix up flour and water into a thick paste, and leave it on the counter at room temperature for about 2 hours. The mixture will thicken considerably and get quite sticky - you can then just adjust the stickiness by adding more flour/water.

[David Keller NC]

"I have been trying to buy brad point drills , the employees in the stores I have access to have never heard of them."

Kevin - Have you tried Lee Valley for these? They make some excellent ones, and ship all over the world. Might have some advantage with the exchange of Canadian dollars/Australian dollars vs. US/Australian.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I have been trying to buy brad point drills , the employees in the stores I have access to have never heard of them.
Kev.

I think they are called something else in England and Australia but the name escapes me at the moment. That could be why no one has heard of them.

[george wilson]

I have made brad point bits long ago,by just dressing a narrow bench grinder wheel,and regrinding the tips of regular twist drills. Start with the largest,keep narrowing the wheel to do progressively smaller ones. It takes a little time,but isn't a huge problem if you just can't get them. You don't have to have a whole 29 pc. set for woodworking,where you are mostly using them for dowel holes,mortises,etc.

[Peter Bell]

Brad point drills are available in Australia. But like so many specialized things since the Big Box store, Bunnings have run the small specialized operator out of town we are left with the crap they are now offering us.

Fortunately, we still have options. The brad point drills are generally available at companies who have pen making supplies.

eg Timbecon, Gary Pye Woodworking, and the rest.

Peter